seems to me that people that concern themselves with what roles, and whom should play that role should probly fill the role themselves. on another note i have always found that approach solves alot of problems.
I've read through the thread and I've got a question:
Why do people roll a class of which they don't enjoy 50% or so of the abilities?
I don't mean this in a "You rolled cleric so you should heal!" type of way. I'm just genuinly curious.
In all games with hybrid classes you see people playing that hybrid as a pure class and refusing to fill the other roles the class is able to fill. I'm wondering why they didn't pick the pure class to begin with.
If I pick a class I do so expecting to use all my abilities to their best effect. I don't pick a class able to both heal and DPS effectively and then proceed to barely use my healing skills at all. To me it would be like playing a pet class without using the pet.
So out of genuine curiosity and no ill will at all, if you've ever picked a hybrid class and played it as a pure class why did you do so? Why didn't you just pick the pure class?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Tradtionally in most MMORPG's players willing to do tanking or healing have been more willing to sacrifice their "personal" preferences in order to benefit the greater good. I myself have played a healer on many occasions to sort of "pay it forward" for all the healers and tanks who helped me level up my DPS/Crowd Controllers/Buffer alts.
As evidenced in this thread, many players don't feel the same sort of implied obligation, if an action in game doesn't directly benefit their preferences, they aren't willing to do it. (The I/Me/Mine generation personfied)
It is not unreasonable for a tank to ask someone who has the ability to heal to heal. It's not folks, and if you're not seeing it then nothing I post here will make it any clearer to you. It is true, you pay for your game, and you're free to play it as you see fit, but the MMORPG world is a better place if you are willing to help others out even when it doesn't directly benefit you individually.
But sometimes you do sacrifice your own personal goals to help other people, in real life and in game (used to be a lot more common years ago I'm afraid) but in this brave new world we live in, chivalry really is almost dead.
The good news is, there's still some of us out there who will play any role. I'm a Druid/Shman in my primary (solo) role, but the minute a major Rift opens I flip over to my pure healer role (Warden/Sentinel) and keep the people taking damage alive. Same for PVP, I play a Puifier/Sentinel for all of its instant heals to keep people alive even though the damage potential is effectively zero.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not getting emotionally involved. You, however, seem to be projecting. How about you stop trying to attack me personally for "being emotional" and just respond to what I'm saying, okay? Stop the ad hominems.
You are very much getting emotionally involved. You're claiming that I'm trying to make you spec a certain way, play a certain way etc etc due to a bad experience you had in FFXI. I'm asking that people fulfill a role when they get into a group even if they don't enjoy it all that much. NONE of this is directed at you (probably, you might play RIFT and have the same thing happen, hell I might have done it!).
You're acting like I'm so pseudo-fascist god-emperor who has ultimate control over the groups you get into.
Just relax and stop trying to make this thread into one about you.
EDIT: By the way, I didn't reply to the rest of your post because it's not about anything we're discussing. ;p
Originally posted by Kyleran
Tradtionally in most MMORPG's players willing to do tanking or healing have been more willing to sacrifice their "personal" preferences in order to benefit the greater good. I myself have played a healer on many occasions to sort of "pay it forward" for all the healers and tanks who helped me level up my DPS/Crowd Controllers/Buffer alts.
As evidenced in this thread, many players don't feel the same sort of implied obligation, if an action in game doesn't directly benefit their preferences, they aren't willing to do it. (The I/Me/Mine generation personfied)
It is not unreasonable for a tank to ask someone who has the ability to heal to heal. It's not folks, and if you're not seeing it then nothing I post here will make it any clearer to you. It is true, you pay for your game, and you're free to play it as you see fit, but the MMORPG world is a better place if you are willing to help others out even when it doesn't directly benefit you individually.
But sometimes you do sacrifice your own personal goals to help other people, in real life and in game (used to be a lot more common years ago I'm afraid) but in this brave new world we live in, chivalry really is almost dead.
The good news is, there's still some of us out there who will play any role. I'm a Druid/Shman in my primary (solo) role, but the minute a major Rift opens I flip over to my pure healer role (Warden/Sentinel) and keep the people taking damage alive. Same for PVP, I play a Puifier/Sentinel for all of its instant heals to keep people alive even though the damage potential is effectively zero.
I think one of the issues of the current generation (which I am a member of, please note) is that we're very much, "I'm special, I can act like how I like, where I like and when I like, regardless of who is there. Deal with it, it's who I am." It's bullshit, of course, since I'M the only special one.
This has leaked over into MMOs. If you're unwilling to deal with how someone else wants to play, it's YOUR fault, not their's. If you kick them from the group, you're a monster etc. If you don't think they're playing as good as they could be (try telling a shitty tank in WoW how to tank better), then you're a moron etc.
At least to me this is at heart the fault of the holy trinity and what it has done to MMOs. The holy trinity has made it so the healer is by far one of the most important aspects in MMOs, with tanking a close second. You can see this in both PVP and PVE!
In PVE you cannot do a dungeon without a healer; you also cannot do a world boss without a healer.
In PVP the side with the most healers actually healing wins 90% of the time; I can remember scenarios in WAR where one side would get pushed to their spawn point because they did not have any healers and the other side had 3 healers. I have memories like this with most MMOs now days, to me PVP boils down to you are going to lose, if you do not have any healers or your healers are melting faces. Of course that is assuming that the other side has healers actually healing!
Like I said earlier when this occurs it is a massacre that really only one side has fun in. With that all that said; in most MMOs now days I play a healer, even though I do not enjoy playing wack a mole with health bars. But with the alternative of dyeing over and over again because your healer is melting faces, and constantly losing in PVP (or not being able to complete a dungeon), at least to me if you want to have fun you have to role a healer.
Unfortunately to me this is just the fact we have to accept with holy trinity MMOs, if you want to make sure you have someone healing, then role one. Do not depend on other people to do this, because you are only going to end up frustrated and pissed off that people are not doing the job you think they should do. I personally hate the trinity design for this reason and I cannot wait for it to die in MMOs! The day I can play any class I want and not feel like I am forced to play a spam healer will be truly a great day; I might dance a happy dance in celebration when it occurs.
As evidenced in this thread, many players don't feel the same sort of implied obligation, if an action in game doesn't directly benefit their preferences, they aren't willing to do it. (The I/Me/Mine generation personfied)
It is not unreasonable for a tank to ask someone who has the ability to heal to heal. It's not folks, and if you're not seeing it then nothing I post here will make it any clearer to you. It is true, you pay for your game, and you're free to play it as you see fit, but the MMORPG world is a better place if you are willing to help others out even when it doesn't directly benefit you individually.
But sometimes you do sacrifice your own personal goals to help other people, in real life and in game (used to be a lot more common years ago I'm afraid) but in this brave new world we live in, chivalry really is almost dead.
Maybe you mistake games for something else but for a lot of people ,games are just for fun and entertaiment,that don't means we don't want to help others but also unlike some "old school" players we don't think is ok to be just another drone working for the greater good of a guild full of hardcores or change our talents because a public party leader playing a dps class asks for it.
You think that "I/Me/Mine generation" is the problem while i think the problem is players who mistake games for second jobs or real life and expect people to give up their fun just for the fun of guild leaders or party leaders.As i said i don't have problems being a healbot for others but that only because i enjoy that and i would prefer to be in a party wiping 10 times but having fun (yes you can having fun even while wiping if you are in a party with nice people who are not obsessed with epics or stats) than in a party full of people forced to play a class they don't enjoy which wins every time .
Anyway i find it funny how some think that "all for the guild generation" is better than current generation of players,i would say that old mmos were quite sad making people mistake games for second jobs and being so desperate to belong to an "elite" guild to sacrifice their fun in games for that.And if a player wants to play a class he or she enjoys then is about "entitlement generation" but you find it ok when guild leaders or other players think is ok to force players into roles they don't enjoy to make "a mmorpg a better place ".So entitlement for the casual player - bad while entitlement for the uber hardcore - good.
And chivalry was born dead,it never really existed in real life and even less in mmos - all the problems with today mmos - obssesion with epics,stats,grinding etc started in what you probably call "the golden age of mmos".
No, people shouldn't sacrifice what makes the game fun for them under any circumstances.
I think it's safe to say that no one plays mmos simply to help people in groups while getting suboptimal enjoyment out of it.
Therefore, keeping consistent with each individuals own goals, they should maximize their own enjoyment.
In group content, it's rare that anyone is enjoying themselves as much as they could when the group is failing to complete the content due to certain roles not being fulfilled.
Therefore, the player simply makes a call about whether their maximum enjoyment will be achieved through staying in their own role and finding a different group, or shifting to a different role to help the group.
That decision is and should be entirely up to each individual, and they have little reason to play the game if not (since they would then be inconsistent with their main purpose for playing).
Well, I do understand your viewpoint, don't get me wrong. I think your mistake is to think of a public group as a "group". Most of the time, it's just a union of people who all have their own goals and are not interested in playing together. Now, if you are making a group for a dungeon, it isn't unreasonable to ask for a healer. However, in a public group...in those I have been in, it's rare that anyone talk, much less that anyone is willing to fill a certain group.
You might be better off for those asking for a healer in chat (like "Rift in x y, any healer around who could help?"). Apart from that, play MMOs to enjoy them. Don't take on a role you don't enjoy, because in the end, you are playing to have fun, not to fulfill others' expectations. It's great and nice of you if you switch to tank when you see one is needed and no one else wants to, but remember that others might not do the same. Not because they want to be jerks, but just because they might not be good at that role or because they are not spec'ced for it. Generally however (apart from the public group), I have found people in Rift to be very nice about it. In groups, if you generally ask ("anyone who can heal/wants to heal?"), without picking out someone and saying "you are a cleric, you HAVE to heal", you will generally find someone who will do the job. One Bard and one Chloromancer together might do an even better job if they are prepared to heal and know what they are doing than two clerics who have been bullied into doing it.
PS: For those who have asked "Why play a Cleric if you dont want to heal? Isnt that gimping yourself?"
No, it is not. Only three souls are "pure" healing. It has nothing to do with gimping if someone enjoys playing the Justicar tank and chooses cleric because of that. I have seen someone spec'ced as tank (Justicar), melee dps (Shaman/Druid), ranged dps (Cabalist/Inquisitor) and a PvP build and they weren't exactly "gimping" themselves or not pulling their own weight.
I usually play to benefit myself and if people don't like the way I play then I remove myself from the group as there seems to be always groups looking for someone in my experiences. Even if you roll a rogue. Lol JK'ing rogues are ok in groups sometimes. Some exceptions is if someone has gone out of their way to respec their class so the group can benefit more from their spec then I'll do the same. EG: guild member who i've known for more than 2 months and has helped me more than once in the past, irl friend etc. Otherwise I'll stay a shadow priest (dps) instead of respecing to a holy priest (healer) or just be cat form as a druid (dps) instead of bear form (tank) etc. I've left alot of groups and those who complain about me getting carried will more than likely end up on my blacklist. So, I guess I would say it depends on circumstances. Definately not for PUGs unless it's someone I remember. The only other exception is if I get put as x role in the raid then more often than not I usually co operate and adjust accoringly.
Circumstantial: If playing pvp e-sport then players act like soldiers in fireteam and have specific roles to perform so the team works more efficiently. That would be compounded with tank-healer-dps combat obviously.
I'd prefer combat to eskew such rigid roles, tho. And allow the context to determine if you provide cover fire/holding fire or killing ground fire etc etc...
Tbh, the question reminds of the one about rotating goalie in 5-aside:
If you're fine with being a "class chameleon" and switching to whatever role is needed on a moment's notice, then great. That's a playstyle that suits you and I'm sure it'll land you more parties in the long run. Win/win for you right?
It's not a playstyle that suits everyone. Some people really enjoy playing one or two specific classes, with one or two specific playstyles. If they prefer to play that way, then that's as much their prerogative as it is yours to switch if asked. They may get fewer parties than you, but then perhaps they're okay with that.
I know personally I would sooner wait twice as long to get a group invite and actually play a class and role I really enjoy, than to switch to doing something I don't enjoy just to get an invite faster. I brought up such an example in my FFXI reference earlier in the thread. I had people telling me regularly "you're playing wrong. Warrior is supposed to be subbed with Ninja." and wouldn't invite me. Didn't really phase me that much. I'm not playing a game to "sacrifice what I find fun" to appease someone else's expectations of "what I'm supposed to do" in their ideal setting. It took me longer than others to level up.. but I did regardless, and never had to "hate" the role I was playing, because I was always playing the role I wanted to.
Playing any role is better than not playing at all (i.e waiting for someone to fill a role).
Furthermore, when we talk about PvP, I want to win more than I want to play any specific role.
But yeah... people have different priorities.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
PS: For those who have asked "Why play a Cleric if you dont want to heal? Isnt that gimping yourself?"
No, it is not. Only three souls are "pure" healing. It has nothing to do with gimping if someone enjoys playing the Justicar tank and chooses cleric because of that. I have seen someone spec'ced as tank (Justicar), melee dps (Shaman/Druid), ranged dps (Cabalist/Inquisitor) and a PvP build and they weren't exactly "gimping" themselves or not pulling their own weight.
Again, purely out of curiosity, why not go rogue then? They can do melee DPS, ranged DPS and Tank from what I hear.
Haven't played RIFT though.
But RIFT probably isn't the best example as it's got only 4 classes ( why does it even have classes? Why not just the soul system? Maybe something for another thread... ) So you're kind of stuck with the "additional" souls if you happen to like a few of them from a certain class. So someone who likes the Shaman/Druid souls gets the short end of the stick and is sadelled up with a lot of souls he may not like at all.
I'm mainly wondering about more traditional hybrid classes. WoW Shaman, WAR Archmage etc.
There's really quite a lot of people playing these classes who don't heal much at all. Now I can understand a small portion of players wanting to play DPS but also wanting to RP as a Shaman/Archmage/whatever. But for most players I think their class choice isn't based primarily on the background/atmosphere of the class.
Or the "pure" healers who play as DPS. The Shadow Priests, Retribution Paladins etc.
Why pick a class of which every fibre, at least to me, screams HEALER while you don't enjoy playing as a healer? Why not pick another class? Say a mage, warlock or rogue. Why put yourself into the situation where group after group will expect you to play a role you don't enjoy playing?
Now I'm all for people playing as they want to play. If you want to play a melee mage then by all means go ahead. I'll even group with you as long as whatever we're facing is not impossible while having a melee mage in the group.
But I can't help but think that all those people picking 'healing' classes and playing as DPS are just setting themselves up for disappointment. You know there's generally a shortage of healers. You know any class with healing abilities will be expected to heal. You know 'healing' classes playing as DPS are often raged at. Knowing all these things why do people still pick 'healing' classes if they hate healing?
Playing an MMO means playing together I believe. It wouldn't be very massive, multiplayer or online if you played by yourself all the time. So why pick a class that you won't enjoy when playing together with that massive, multiplayer online crowd? I mean if the whole point is having fun, why pick a class where you'll eventually end up frustrated because nobody accepts you as a DPS?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
But I can't help but think that all those people picking 'healing' classes and playing as DPS are just setting themselves up for disappointment. You know there's generally a shortage of healers. You know any class with healing abilities will be expected to heal. You know 'healing' classes playing as DPS are often raged at. Knowing all these things why do people still pick 'healing' classes if they hate healing?
I have a friend who quit WoW... pretty much forever, because he picked a druid because he likes the idea of hybrid classes and dabbling in everything...
... but at least in the period of time he was playing WoW, druids were in demand as healers, and he couldn't get into the latter raids unless he was willing to play healer. Which he would do SOMETIMES, but hated having it demanded of him time after time.
I personally love hybrid classes too, because I'm a dabbler, and I don't have the TIME to play 3, 4 classes... I'll almost always pick the class that is most flexible in its roles.
What's wrong with preferring to play a hybrid class as... well, a hybrid, with some healing, but not that as your focus?
edit: Also, there's plenty of reasons to want to play as the offensive version of a healing class. The fact that it's even possible will mean some people will want to. That it's so unwelcome when you do so is indicative of a flaw in game design. :T
I have a friend who quit WoW... pretty much forever, because he picked a druid because he likes the idea of hybrid classes and dabbling in everything...
... but at least in the period of time he was playing WoW, druids were in demand as healers, and he couldn't get into the latter raids unless he was willing to play healer. Which he would do SOMETIMES, but hated having it demanded of him time after time.
I personally love hybrid classes too, because I'm a dabbler, and I don't have the TIME to play 3, 4 classes... I'll almost always pick the class that is most flexible in its roles.
What's wrong with preferring to play a hybrid class as... well, a hybrid, with some healing, but not that as your focus?
edit: Also, there's plenty of reasons to want to play as the offensive version of a healing class. The fact that it's even possible will mean some people will want to. That it's so unwelcome when you do so is indicative of a flaw in game design. :T
Nothing wrong with it. As I said, I was merely curious.
The way I see it if you don't want to be heal in group settings then don't pick a class that can heal. No matter wether or not it's fair, reasonable or "supposed to be played like this" you're still going to be asked or even forced to heal if your class can heal.
The average IQ is 100. So the average MMO player most likely has an IQ of about 100. While this means he's not a total idiot it also means he's not all that smart either. He will expect you to heal as a healing-capable class. If he dies while you're nearby then he will blame you. He's not capable of empathy with a virtual character controlled by an unknown person possibly half a world away. And this may sound like something you would scream down from an ivory tower it's sadly the truth.
It's not about right or wrong. I'm curious about the simple practicalities of playing healing-capable classes, in an environment where such classes are generally expected to heal, by players who don't like healing. No matter what a class is designed or supposed to do if you can heal chances realistically are that everytime you group you will be expected to do so. So knowing that realistically healing-capable classes are expected to heal everytime they group why do people who don't want to heal every time they group still pick healing-capable classes?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
It's not about right or wrong. I'm curious about the simple practicalities of playing healing-capable classes, in an environment where such classes are generally expected to heal, by players who don't like healing. No matter what a class is designed or supposed to do if you can heal chances realistically are that everytime you group you will be expected to do so. So knowing that realistically healing-capable classes are expected to heal everytime they group why do people who don't want to heal every time they group still pick healing-capable classes?
Interesting point. When I (briefly) tried playing Phantasy Star Universe (I loved PSO. PSU? Not so much), I found a LOT of people who seemed adamant that hunters were the tanks, rangers were the DPS, and forces were the healers, and were actively ANGRY with me for not spending all my energy in healing them while they stood there and took hits that they should have been able to sidestep if they had 2 brain cells.
When I TOLD them they should be sidestepping, they said that they were the tank, and it was their function to take the hits so that I, as a squishier person, would not get hit. ... and in return, I needed to heal them.
My response was that if they were smart enough to dodge the enemies, that trust me, I'm far smarter, and would be dodging even more.
... oddly enough, that did not make me friends, but I digress!
It's interesting to point out that the holy trinity has been SO firmly entrenched into the MMO culture, that some people can't even conceive of an alternative model, and as you put it... even the SLIGHT ability to heal gets translated into 'You must be a healbot, dispensing heals'.
The only point I've really gathered from what you're saying though, is 'You shouldn't pick a class that is even remotely capable of healing unless you want to heal all the time, because other players are stupid and a-holes.'
Which uh... is probably not TOO far off the mark, but it's a grim look at MMOs now, isn't it? ... and people wonder why I like to solo so much...
Oh, and I think a lot of people DON'T realize that they'll be expected to heal all the time. My friend didn't realize that until the higher levels, my wife didn't realize that when she played an MMO... lots of people are new to MMO culture, and don't realize just how crazy the people are. :T
I'm kinda wondering if you've ever played a class that can heal. I've played healing classes through much of my mmo career and you get asked ALL the time. It gets a little old. The worst was in CoH when I played a Defender who actually had no healing. He had great control but people would get all bent out of shape when they invited a defender and realized there was no healing on my build. When I played my healing defender people would sometimes get bent because I wasn't the "right" healing spec for their perceived needs.
In WoW Shadow Priests have this problem all the time. They play Shadow because they like the dps powers, not because they want to heal. A lot of times Shadow Priests find themselves on the outs with their guild, not because they don't dps well, but because they don't heal.
At any rate, I am the type of person who will do what my guild needs me to do so I'll play the role that will benefit most, but not everyone wants to heal or tank or whatever and probably shouldn't be expected to. That said, you do want your guildmates to bend when it is really needed - but in your post you are implying that pugs should. So you have a random Cleric in your group who is not spec'd for healing, doesn't heal and , since it's a new game, probably would be a crap healer because he probably has never done it, and you want him to just up and change to a new role that he may or may not even have access to for the sake of you and your pug? Dude - the Cleric is not the selfish one in this scenario.
edit: And to answer the question as to why someone would pick a class that has healing if they don't want to heal - it's because they like all the non-healing stuff the class has to offer. In WoW no other dps has the same abilities as a Shadow Priest and it's a very fun class to play. This is even more true of Rift where the Cleric's non-healing souls are unique and bring a lot to the table that other classes do not. In Rift you should not be looking for the class. Smart group leaders don't shout, "cleric needed for IT," but rather, "warden needed for IT." If you have a group of 4 and you need a healer, any old cleric will not do.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
It really should only be a problem with the healing discussion if you can't find a "healer".
The "holy trinity" is not entrenched in our minds because of how we want to play a game. Its there because of how the games are designed. I don't care how you want to word it...
There are instances depending on MMO you cannot do without crowd control or "mana regen" classes. There are most definitely instances you are not going to do without a healer or healers (again depending on the game).
That is how it is regardless of how players feel. So I don't see how anyone can say the "Holy Trinity" is entrenched in the players mind. If you want to do the content we are being sold, then you have to play the game "their way".
That's the real problem isn't it? You buy a virtual world and what you really want to do is play your character your way. You don't want content shoved down your throat that has to be played how the designers think it shouuld be played. Just like a good RPG where a problem or puzzle can be solved multiple ways.
The problem here once again is game design and we as player can't fix that. Well we can refuse to pay for it and maybe they'd get the hint...
My first real MMO was Ultima Online. There was no "healer" build period. Everyone could heal and someone else might cure you or heal you but there was no role for it. Somehow we did really well without any "holy trinity".
If developers are going to insist on following their current and to me quite bland form of game creation. They need to at least be more creative with the classes and roles. I think it was Blood Mage? in Vanguard that healed with its damaging spells. Of course then you have to think outside the box on your overall game design. However, I would say obviously something has to be done (then again I guess I'm just bored with how MMO's are designed currently and maybe its just fine for most).
That is how it is regardless of how players feel. So I don't see how anyone can say the "Holy Trinity" is entrenched in the players mind. If you want to do the content we are being sold, then you have to play the game "their way".
That's the real problem isn't it? You buy a virtual world and what you really want to do is play your character your way. You don't want content shoved down your throat that has to be played how the designers think it shouuld be played. Just like a good RPG where a problem or puzzle can be solved multiple ways.
That's the problem though. Even if it's designed so you DON'T need the holy trinity (ie, PSU), there's a lot of players who insist that unless you're using the holy trinity, you're doing it wrong.
In PSO/PSU, using the holy trinity model is an ACTIVELY bad decision. It's not a little bad, it's ACTIVELY bad. Like, it's worse than playing the right way. Yet people still played that way, because somehow WoW broke something inside of their head, or something.
The only point I've really gathered from what you're saying though, is 'You shouldn't pick a class that is even remotely capable of healing unless you want to heal all the time, because other players are stupid and a-holes.'
Which uh... is probably not TOO far off the mark, but it's a grim look at MMOs now, isn't it? ... and people wonder why I like to solo so much...
Oh, and I think a lot of people DON'T realize that they'll be expected to heal all the time. My friend didn't realize that until the higher levels, my wife didn't realize that when she played an MMO... lots of people are new to MMO culture, and don't realize just how crazy the people are. :T
Basically the point I'm trying to make.
People, and especially developers, should stop expecting other people to always be reasonable and friendly. Because we're not. And yes, this includes you, the reader. And yes, this also includes me.
Games should be made much more on a WYSIWYG ( What You See Is What You Get ) basis if they use the trinity system. A healer class should be exactly that, a healer. Don't give him a DPS tree. Don't give DPS classes some healing skills. Don't give tanks options to go full DPS. That way when you see a healing class you know you're getting a healing class.
Design your game so you no longer need DPS specs to level up with any kind of speed. Maybe create some quests that can be completed without commiting genocide on entire fantasy species in as short a time as possible? Make grouping a viable way to level up right from level 1?
If you think that you lose a lot of variety and options with such a system that's fine. Use a skill-based system or a non-trinity class system. Those systems give way more variety and options then a trinity system ever could. If however you use a trinity system, then do it right and don't give the illusion of variety when in the end the largest part of your playerbase will end up in one spec anyway.
Originally posted by Joarnaj
edit: And to answer the question as to why someone would pick a class that has healing if they don't want to heal - it's because they like all the non-healing stuff the class has to offer. In WoW no other dps has the same abilities as a Shadow Priest and it's a very fun class to play. This is even more true of Rift where the Cleric's non-healing souls are unique and bring a lot to the table that other classes do not. In Rift you should not be looking for the class. Smart group leaders don't shout, "cleric needed for IT," but rather, "warden needed for IT." If you have a group of 4 and you need a healer, any old cleric will not do.
My point exactly. It's stupid of developers to mix stuff like this when using a trinity system. You only end up creating spec trees that most of your playerbase will not use except maybe to grind to max lvl as fast as possible.
Split the class. Create the priest class which gets all the holy stuff and then create a defiler class which gets all the shadow stuff. You like Shadow Priests? Pick that defiler and you won't ever have a falling out with your guild because you don't like healing. Because you can't heal. You're not a healing class. You're a DPS class. So you DPS.
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The only point I've really gathered from what you're saying though, is 'You shouldn't pick a class that is even remotely capable of healing unless you want to heal all the time, because other players are stupid and a-holes.'
Which uh... is probably not TOO far off the mark, but it's a grim look at MMOs now, isn't it? ... and people wonder why I like to solo so much...
Oh, and I think a lot of people DON'T realize that they'll be expected to heal all the time. My friend didn't realize that until the higher levels, my wife didn't realize that when she played an MMO... lots of people are new to MMO culture, and don't realize just how crazy the people are. :T
Basically the point I'm trying to make.
People, and especially developers, should stop expecting other people to always be reasonable and friendly. Because we're not. And yes, this includes you, the reader. And yes, this also includes me.
Games should be made much more on a WYSIWYG ( What You See Is What You Get ) basis if they use the trinity system. A healer class should be exactly that, a healer. Don't give him a DPS tree. Don't give DPS classes some healing skills. Don't give tanks options to go full DPS. That way when you see a healing class you know you're getting a healing class.
Design your game so you no longer need DPS specs to level up with any kind of speed. Maybe create some quests that can be completed without commiting genocide on entire fantasy species in as short a time as possible? Make grouping a viable way to level up right from level 1?
If you think that you lose a lot of variety and options with such a system that's fine. Use a skill-based system or a non-trinity class system. Those systems give way more variety and options then a trinity system ever could. If however you use a trinity system, then do it right and don't give the illusion of variety when in the end the largest part of your playerbase will end up in one spec anyway.
Originally posted by Joarnaj
edit: And to answer the question as to why someone would pick a class that has healing if they don't want to heal - it's because they like all the non-healing stuff the class has to offer. In WoW no other dps has the same abilities as a Shadow Priest and it's a very fun class to play. This is even more true of Rift where the Cleric's non-healing souls are unique and bring a lot to the table that other classes do not. In Rift you should not be looking for the class. Smart group leaders don't shout, "cleric needed for IT," but rather, "warden needed for IT." If you have a group of 4 and you need a healer, any old cleric will not do.
My point exactly. It's stupid of developers to mix stuff like this when using a trinity system. You only end up creating spec trees that most of your playerbase will not use except maybe to grind to max lvl as fast as possible.
Split the class. Create the priest class which gets all the holy stuff and then create a defiler class which gets all the shadow stuff. You like Shadow Priests? Pick that defiler and you won't ever have a falling out with your guild because you don't like healing. Because you can't heal. You're not a healing class. You're a DPS class. So you DPS.
This sounds a lot like you're saying "Rather than change my own preconceived notions of class capabilities, and how players have fun, I'd prefer games to be designed in a way that's less fun to the majority of people."
All you have to do is go "LFM Tank" and POOF you're gonna find people who want to tank (just like you did in every game before the ones that let players flexibly switch roles.)
Just seems weird to want the genre to take a huge step backwards in fun, just because you're unwilling to change your preconceived notions of class capabilities.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The problem here really is the whole trinity system of combat. Rift is a game that boast all these options, with the soul trees that allows players to play their class exactly how they want. However just like the majority of trinity MMOs it becomes known that a certain class will be known best for it's "healing, tanking, DPSing, etc." and so those classes will end up pigeonholded into those catergories. Quite frankly I find that counter-intuitive to the MMO genre, which should be about bringing people together. Rift did take a step forward in the right direction, with its public grouping & rifts but the holy trinity is really what's holding it back. Because you'll always get people saying "You're doing it wrong!", even if you specced you character the way you wanted to spec it and you're really good & having a lot of fun with it, you'll always be pigeonheld into you're class' well-known role.
This is why a game like Guild Wars 2 cannot come soon enough, because instead of trying to side-step the issue like Rift has done; by allowing most of their classes to become viable healers or tanks, meaning you won't have to spend too long looking for one. The team behind Guild Wars 2 are trying to tackle the issue by removing the archaic holy trinity and giving the player options to define their own playstyle. Even The Secret World is doing something similar to this philosophy of combat but I'm not sure if that game still follows the same tank, healer, DPS thing. Can someone clarify, cause I remember seeing a vid where some guy was healing?
Maybe I'm just lucky but the two WoW servers I haunted for years, rarely saw someone "LFM priest" and expect it to be a healer. They would often say "LFM Priest heals" or "LFM paladin tank" etc etc.
The implication that a player who has a healing spec available should heal is absurd. What if a class had no DPS spec, does that mean that every player of a class with a dps spec should be able to play DPS? I liked Holy Paladin in WoW and I loved Prot but you couldn't pay me to ret. I didn't have the mind for it--I was more interested in using abils like Hand[s] of Sacrifice, Protection, Freedom and Salvation, and abilities like DIvine Guardian (none of which are for personal dps) than I was about smacking the boss.
I have met my share of friendly shadow priests that would toss out shields on people who were low health, shamans that would use totems that would most assist the group's chance of success and paladins who knew their auras and knew their Hand spells.
People should play the roles they like. Taking one talent or subspec'ing to assist a consistent group (a guild or a weekly pug) is one thing and if you're a team player, that's a kind thing to do but if you don't find tanking fun, just because Warriors have a few tank specs doesn't mean you should be required to tank.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
The problem here really is the whole trinity system of combat. Rift is a game that boast all these options, with the soul trees that allows players to play their class exactly how they want. However just like the majority of trinity MMOs it becomes known that a certain class will be known best for it's "healing, tanking, DPSing, etc." and so those classes will end up pigeonholded into those catergories. Quite frankly I find that counter-intuitive to the MMO genre, which should be about bringing people together. Rift did take a step forward in the right direction, with its public grouping & rifts but the holy trinity is really what's holding it back. Because you'll always get people saying "You're doing it wrong!", even if you specced you character the way you wanted to spec it and you're really good & having a lot of fun with it, you'll always be pigeonheld into you're class' well-known role.
This is why a game like Guild Wars 2 cannot come soon enough, because instead of trying to side-step the issue like Rift has done; by allowing most of their classes to become viable healers or tanks, meaning you won't have to spend too long looking for one. The team behind Guild Wars 2 are trying to tackle the issue by removing the archaic holy trinity and giving the player options to define their own playstyle. Even The Secret World is doing something similar to this philosophy of combat but I'm not sure if that game still follows the same tank, healer, DPS thing. Can someone clarify, cause I remember seeing a vid where some guy was healing?
You make it sound like specialization hurts group play, when in fact the opposite is true.
It boils down to the question "Why should I group?"
In games where characters can do everything (can do everything at any given moment), the answer is a weak "Uh, I guess because we damage things a bit faster."
In games where characters have strong roles, the answer is a strong "Obviously I have to group -- there's no way I could survive being hit like a tank can, or heal like a healer can, or deal damage like a DPSer can."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The "holy trinity" is not entrenched in our minds because of how we want to play a game. Its there because of how the games are designed. I don't care how you want to word it...
No. The holy trinity is firmly entrenched into the minds of the players. EQ is the perfect example, and in some sense, the origin of the trinity. The trinity was a good group setup. It worked. But it was hardly a great group setup for EQ. So many other group combinations kill mobs faster, killed them in larger numbers at the same time, gained much better exp rates, and could pull more boss mobs for loot drops than a trinity group.
However, could you form one of these groups? Highly unlikly. It was trinity or nothing (the vast majority of the time) despite the game mechanics supporting nearly any combination in a way that provided more benefit than the trinity through the PoP expansion and perhaps beyond. From my experience, the players are the problem and not game mechanics most of the time. I have similar experiences in other MMOs and non-MMOs.
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The problem here really is the whole trinity system of combat. Rift is a game that boast all these options, with the soul trees that allows players to play their class exactly how they want. However just like the majority of trinity MMOs it becomes known that a certain class will be known best for it's "healing, tanking, DPSing, etc." and so those classes will end up pigeonholded into those catergories. Quite frankly I find that counter-intuitive to the MMO genre, which should be about bringing people together. Rift did take a step forward in the right direction, with its public grouping & rifts but the holy trinity is really what's holding it back. Because you'll always get people saying "You're doing it wrong!", even if you specced you character the way you wanted to spec it and you're really good & having a lot of fun with it, you'll always be pigeonheld into you're class' well-known role.
This is why a game like Guild Wars 2 cannot come soon enough, because instead of trying to side-step the issue like Rift has done; by allowing most of their classes to become viable healers or tanks, meaning you won't have to spend too long looking for one. The team behind Guild Wars 2 are trying to tackle the issue by removing the archaic holy trinity and giving the player options to define their own playstyle. Even The Secret World is doing something similar to this philosophy of combat but I'm not sure if that game still follows the same tank, healer, DPS thing. Can someone clarify, cause I remember seeing a vid where some guy was healing?
You make it sound like specialization hurts group play, when in fact the opposite is true.
It boils down to the question "Why should I group?"
In games where characters can do everything (can do everything at any given moment), the answer is a weak "Uh, I guess because we damage things a bit faster."
In games where characters have strong roles, the answer is a strong "Obviously I have to group -- there's no way I could survive being hit like a tank can, or heal like a healer can, or deal damage like a DPSer can."
I've learned through conversations around the forums that people mean different things when lamenting the Trinity.
Some people mean that they want a game where everyone is a superhero. A DPS that can take the punches and heal the harder ones which is what you're talking about.
Other people mean they want a game where there's the Holy Trinity but there's a the guy who can dps and heal, off-tank and dps, buff the party and do a little healing or dps, etc etc. The off-tanking dps would be able to tank smaller content, and probably have better threat (depending on threat modifiers) though a dragon would eat them, outside of the 6 or 30 seconds cooldowns might last.
Some FFXI merit groups, for instance could do just fine with a bard and dancer for healers. The only reasons most merit groups (endgame exping party) demanded having a healer is they're the only ones that had practical applications of the Haste ability. (Summoners didn't merit). I imagine it's clear what a bard was.. a dancer was something like a rogue that could use it's Tactical Power (built from auto attack hits) to heal.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
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seems to me that people that concern themselves with what roles, and whom should play that role should probly fill the role themselves. on another note i have always found that approach solves alot of problems.
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I've read through the thread and I've got a question:
Why do people roll a class of which they don't enjoy 50% or so of the abilities?
I don't mean this in a "You rolled cleric so you should heal!" type of way. I'm just genuinly curious.
In all games with hybrid classes you see people playing that hybrid as a pure class and refusing to fill the other roles the class is able to fill. I'm wondering why they didn't pick the pure class to begin with.
If I pick a class I do so expecting to use all my abilities to their best effect. I don't pick a class able to both heal and DPS effectively and then proceed to barely use my healing skills at all. To me it would be like playing a pet class without using the pet.
So out of genuine curiosity and no ill will at all, if you've ever picked a hybrid class and played it as a pure class why did you do so? Why didn't you just pick the pure class?
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Tradtionally in most MMORPG's players willing to do tanking or healing have been more willing to sacrifice their "personal" preferences in order to benefit the greater good. I myself have played a healer on many occasions to sort of "pay it forward" for all the healers and tanks who helped me level up my DPS/Crowd Controllers/Buffer alts.
As evidenced in this thread, many players don't feel the same sort of implied obligation, if an action in game doesn't directly benefit their preferences, they aren't willing to do it. (The I/Me/Mine generation personfied)
It is not unreasonable for a tank to ask someone who has the ability to heal to heal. It's not folks, and if you're not seeing it then nothing I post here will make it any clearer to you. It is true, you pay for your game, and you're free to play it as you see fit, but the MMORPG world is a better place if you are willing to help others out even when it doesn't directly benefit you individually.
But sometimes you do sacrifice your own personal goals to help other people, in real life and in game (used to be a lot more common years ago I'm afraid) but in this brave new world we live in, chivalry really is almost dead.
The good news is, there's still some of us out there who will play any role. I'm a Druid/Shman in my primary (solo) role, but the minute a major Rift opens I flip over to my pure healer role (Warden/Sentinel) and keep the people taking damage alive. Same for PVP, I play a Puifier/Sentinel for all of its instant heals to keep people alive even though the damage potential is effectively zero.
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I think one of the issues of the current generation (which I am a member of, please note) is that we're very much, "I'm special, I can act like how I like, where I like and when I like, regardless of who is there. Deal with it, it's who I am." It's bullshit, of course, since I'M the only special one.
This has leaked over into MMOs. If you're unwilling to deal with how someone else wants to play, it's YOUR fault, not their's. If you kick them from the group, you're a monster etc. If you don't think they're playing as good as they could be (try telling a shitty tank in WoW how to tank better), then you're a moron etc.
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At least to me this is at heart the fault of the holy trinity and what it has done to MMOs. The holy trinity has made it so the healer is by far one of the most important aspects in MMOs, with tanking a close second. You can see this in both PVP and PVE!
In PVE you cannot do a dungeon without a healer; you also cannot do a world boss without a healer.
In PVP the side with the most healers actually healing wins 90% of the time; I can remember scenarios in WAR where one side would get pushed to their spawn point because they did not have any healers and the other side had 3 healers. I have memories like this with most MMOs now days, to me PVP boils down to you are going to lose, if you do not have any healers or your healers are melting faces. Of course that is assuming that the other side has healers actually healing!
Like I said earlier when this occurs it is a massacre that really only one side has fun in. With that all that said; in most MMOs now days I play a healer, even though I do not enjoy playing wack a mole with health bars. But with the alternative of dyeing over and over again because your healer is melting faces, and constantly losing in PVP (or not being able to complete a dungeon), at least to me if you want to have fun you have to role a healer.
Unfortunately to me this is just the fact we have to accept with holy trinity MMOs, if you want to make sure you have someone healing, then role one. Do not depend on other people to do this, because you are only going to end up frustrated and pissed off that people are not doing the job you think they should do. I personally hate the trinity design for this reason and I cannot wait for it to die in MMOs! The day I can play any class I want and not feel like I am forced to play a spam healer will be truly a great day; I might dance a happy dance in celebration when it occurs.
Maybe you mistake games for something else but for a lot of people ,games are just for fun and entertaiment,that don't means we don't want to help others but also unlike some "old school" players we don't think is ok to be just another drone working for the greater good of a guild full of hardcores or change our talents because a public party leader playing a dps class asks for it.
You think that "I/Me/Mine generation" is the problem while i think the problem is players who mistake games for second jobs or real life and expect people to give up their fun just for the fun of guild leaders or party leaders.As i said i don't have problems being a healbot for others but that only because i enjoy that and i would prefer to be in a party wiping 10 times but having fun (yes you can having fun even while wiping if you are in a party with nice people who are not obsessed with epics or stats) than in a party full of people forced to play a class they don't enjoy which wins every time .
Anyway i find it funny how some think that "all for the guild generation" is better than current generation of players,i would say that old mmos were quite sad making people mistake games for second jobs and being so desperate to belong to an "elite" guild to sacrifice their fun in games for that.And if a player wants to play a class he or she enjoys then is about "entitlement generation" but you find it ok when guild leaders or other players think is ok to force players into roles they don't enjoy to make "a mmorpg a better place ".So entitlement for the casual player - bad while entitlement for the uber hardcore - good.
And chivalry was born dead,it never really existed in real life and even less in mmos - all the problems with today mmos - obssesion with epics,stats,grinding etc started in what you probably call "the golden age of mmos".
No, people shouldn't sacrifice what makes the game fun for them under any circumstances.
I think it's safe to say that no one plays mmos simply to help people in groups while getting suboptimal enjoyment out of it.
Therefore, keeping consistent with each individuals own goals, they should maximize their own enjoyment.
In group content, it's rare that anyone is enjoying themselves as much as they could when the group is failing to complete the content due to certain roles not being fulfilled.
Therefore, the player simply makes a call about whether their maximum enjoyment will be achieved through staying in their own role and finding a different group, or shifting to a different role to help the group.
That decision is and should be entirely up to each individual, and they have little reason to play the game if not (since they would then be inconsistent with their main purpose for playing).
Well, I do understand your viewpoint, don't get me wrong. I think your mistake is to think of a public group as a "group". Most of the time, it's just a union of people who all have their own goals and are not interested in playing together. Now, if you are making a group for a dungeon, it isn't unreasonable to ask for a healer. However, in a public group...in those I have been in, it's rare that anyone talk, much less that anyone is willing to fill a certain group.
You might be better off for those asking for a healer in chat (like "Rift in x y, any healer around who could help?"). Apart from that, play MMOs to enjoy them. Don't take on a role you don't enjoy, because in the end, you are playing to have fun, not to fulfill others' expectations. It's great and nice of you if you switch to tank when you see one is needed and no one else wants to, but remember that others might not do the same. Not because they want to be jerks, but just because they might not be good at that role or because they are not spec'ced for it. Generally however (apart from the public group), I have found people in Rift to be very nice about it. In groups, if you generally ask ("anyone who can heal/wants to heal?"), without picking out someone and saying "you are a cleric, you HAVE to heal", you will generally find someone who will do the job. One Bard and one Chloromancer together might do an even better job if they are prepared to heal and know what they are doing than two clerics who have been bullied into doing it.
PS: For those who have asked "Why play a Cleric if you dont want to heal? Isnt that gimping yourself?"
No, it is not. Only three souls are "pure" healing. It has nothing to do with gimping if someone enjoys playing the Justicar tank and chooses cleric because of that. I have seen someone spec'ced as tank (Justicar), melee dps (Shaman/Druid), ranged dps (Cabalist/Inquisitor) and a PvP build and they weren't exactly "gimping" themselves or not pulling their own weight.
I usually play to benefit myself and if people don't like the way I play then I remove myself from the group as there seems to be always groups looking for someone in my experiences. Even if you roll a rogue. Lol JK'ing rogues are ok in groups sometimes. Some exceptions is if someone has gone out of their way to respec their class so the group can benefit more from their spec then I'll do the same. EG: guild member who i've known for more than 2 months and has helped me more than once in the past, irl friend etc. Otherwise I'll stay a shadow priest (dps) instead of respecing to a holy priest (healer) or just be cat form as a druid (dps) instead of bear form (tank) etc. I've left alot of groups and those who complain about me getting carried will more than likely end up on my blacklist. So, I guess I would say it depends on circumstances. Definately not for PUGs unless it's someone I remember. The only other exception is if I get put as x role in the raid then more often than not I usually co operate and adjust accoringly.
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Circumstantial: If playing pvp e-sport then players act like soldiers in fireteam and have specific roles to perform so the team works more efficiently. That would be compounded with tank-healer-dps combat obviously.
I'd prefer combat to eskew such rigid roles, tho. And allow the context to determine if you provide cover fire/holding fire or killing ground fire etc etc...
Tbh, the question reminds of the one about rotating goalie in 5-aside:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Playing any role is better than not playing at all (i.e waiting for someone to fill a role).
Furthermore, when we talk about PvP, I want to win more than I want to play any specific role.
But yeah... people have different priorities.
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Again, purely out of curiosity, why not go rogue then? They can do melee DPS, ranged DPS and Tank from what I hear.
Haven't played RIFT though.
But RIFT probably isn't the best example as it's got only 4 classes ( why does it even have classes? Why not just the soul system? Maybe something for another thread... ) So you're kind of stuck with the "additional" souls if you happen to like a few of them from a certain class. So someone who likes the Shaman/Druid souls gets the short end of the stick and is sadelled up with a lot of souls he may not like at all.
I'm mainly wondering about more traditional hybrid classes. WoW Shaman, WAR Archmage etc.
There's really quite a lot of people playing these classes who don't heal much at all. Now I can understand a small portion of players wanting to play DPS but also wanting to RP as a Shaman/Archmage/whatever. But for most players I think their class choice isn't based primarily on the background/atmosphere of the class.
Or the "pure" healers who play as DPS. The Shadow Priests, Retribution Paladins etc.
Why pick a class of which every fibre, at least to me, screams HEALER while you don't enjoy playing as a healer? Why not pick another class? Say a mage, warlock or rogue. Why put yourself into the situation where group after group will expect you to play a role you don't enjoy playing?
Now I'm all for people playing as they want to play. If you want to play a melee mage then by all means go ahead. I'll even group with you as long as whatever we're facing is not impossible while having a melee mage in the group.
But I can't help but think that all those people picking 'healing' classes and playing as DPS are just setting themselves up for disappointment. You know there's generally a shortage of healers. You know any class with healing abilities will be expected to heal. You know 'healing' classes playing as DPS are often raged at. Knowing all these things why do people still pick 'healing' classes if they hate healing?
Playing an MMO means playing together I believe. It wouldn't be very massive, multiplayer or online if you played by yourself all the time. So why pick a class that you won't enjoy when playing together with that massive, multiplayer online crowd? I mean if the whole point is having fun, why pick a class where you'll eventually end up frustrated because nobody accepts you as a DPS?
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I have a friend who quit WoW... pretty much forever, because he picked a druid because he likes the idea of hybrid classes and dabbling in everything...
... but at least in the period of time he was playing WoW, druids were in demand as healers, and he couldn't get into the latter raids unless he was willing to play healer. Which he would do SOMETIMES, but hated having it demanded of him time after time.
I personally love hybrid classes too, because I'm a dabbler, and I don't have the TIME to play 3, 4 classes... I'll almost always pick the class that is most flexible in its roles.
What's wrong with preferring to play a hybrid class as... well, a hybrid, with some healing, but not that as your focus?
edit: Also, there's plenty of reasons to want to play as the offensive version of a healing class. The fact that it's even possible will mean some people will want to. That it's so unwelcome when you do so is indicative of a flaw in game design. :T
Nothing wrong with it. As I said, I was merely curious.
The way I see it if you don't want to be heal in group settings then don't pick a class that can heal. No matter wether or not it's fair, reasonable or "supposed to be played like this" you're still going to be asked or even forced to heal if your class can heal.
The average IQ is 100. So the average MMO player most likely has an IQ of about 100. While this means he's not a total idiot it also means he's not all that smart either. He will expect you to heal as a healing-capable class. If he dies while you're nearby then he will blame you. He's not capable of empathy with a virtual character controlled by an unknown person possibly half a world away. And this may sound like something you would scream down from an ivory tower it's sadly the truth.
It's not about right or wrong. I'm curious about the simple practicalities of playing healing-capable classes, in an environment where such classes are generally expected to heal, by players who don't like healing. No matter what a class is designed or supposed to do if you can heal chances realistically are that everytime you group you will be expected to do so. So knowing that realistically healing-capable classes are expected to heal everytime they group why do people who don't want to heal every time they group still pick healing-capable classes?
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Interesting point. When I (briefly) tried playing Phantasy Star Universe (I loved PSO. PSU? Not so much), I found a LOT of people who seemed adamant that hunters were the tanks, rangers were the DPS, and forces were the healers, and were actively ANGRY with me for not spending all my energy in healing them while they stood there and took hits that they should have been able to sidestep if they had 2 brain cells.
When I TOLD them they should be sidestepping, they said that they were the tank, and it was their function to take the hits so that I, as a squishier person, would not get hit. ... and in return, I needed to heal them.
My response was that if they were smart enough to dodge the enemies, that trust me, I'm far smarter, and would be dodging even more.
... oddly enough, that did not make me friends, but I digress!
It's interesting to point out that the holy trinity has been SO firmly entrenched into the MMO culture, that some people can't even conceive of an alternative model, and as you put it... even the SLIGHT ability to heal gets translated into 'You must be a healbot, dispensing heals'.
The only point I've really gathered from what you're saying though, is 'You shouldn't pick a class that is even remotely capable of healing unless you want to heal all the time, because other players are stupid and a-holes.'
Which uh... is probably not TOO far off the mark, but it's a grim look at MMOs now, isn't it? ... and people wonder why I like to solo so much...
Oh, and I think a lot of people DON'T realize that they'll be expected to heal all the time. My friend didn't realize that until the higher levels, my wife didn't realize that when she played an MMO... lots of people are new to MMO culture, and don't realize just how crazy the people are. :T
I'm kinda wondering if you've ever played a class that can heal. I've played healing classes through much of my mmo career and you get asked ALL the time. It gets a little old. The worst was in CoH when I played a Defender who actually had no healing. He had great control but people would get all bent out of shape when they invited a defender and realized there was no healing on my build. When I played my healing defender people would sometimes get bent because I wasn't the "right" healing spec for their perceived needs.
In WoW Shadow Priests have this problem all the time. They play Shadow because they like the dps powers, not because they want to heal. A lot of times Shadow Priests find themselves on the outs with their guild, not because they don't dps well, but because they don't heal.
At any rate, I am the type of person who will do what my guild needs me to do so I'll play the role that will benefit most, but not everyone wants to heal or tank or whatever and probably shouldn't be expected to. That said, you do want your guildmates to bend when it is really needed - but in your post you are implying that pugs should. So you have a random Cleric in your group who is not spec'd for healing, doesn't heal and , since it's a new game, probably would be a crap healer because he probably has never done it, and you want him to just up and change to a new role that he may or may not even have access to for the sake of you and your pug? Dude - the Cleric is not the selfish one in this scenario.
edit: And to answer the question as to why someone would pick a class that has healing if they don't want to heal - it's because they like all the non-healing stuff the class has to offer. In WoW no other dps has the same abilities as a Shadow Priest and it's a very fun class to play. This is even more true of Rift where the Cleric's non-healing souls are unique and bring a lot to the table that other classes do not. In Rift you should not be looking for the class. Smart group leaders don't shout, "cleric needed for IT," but rather, "warden needed for IT." If you have a group of 4 and you need a healer, any old cleric will not do.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
It really should only be a problem with the healing discussion if you can't find a "healer".
The "holy trinity" is not entrenched in our minds because of how we want to play a game. Its there because of how the games are designed. I don't care how you want to word it...
There are instances depending on MMO you cannot do without crowd control or "mana regen" classes. There are most definitely instances you are not going to do without a healer or healers (again depending on the game).
That is how it is regardless of how players feel. So I don't see how anyone can say the "Holy Trinity" is entrenched in the players mind. If you want to do the content we are being sold, then you have to play the game "their way".
That's the real problem isn't it? You buy a virtual world and what you really want to do is play your character your way. You don't want content shoved down your throat that has to be played how the designers think it shouuld be played. Just like a good RPG where a problem or puzzle can be solved multiple ways.
The problem here once again is game design and we as player can't fix that. Well we can refuse to pay for it and maybe they'd get the hint...
My first real MMO was Ultima Online. There was no "healer" build period. Everyone could heal and someone else might cure you or heal you but there was no role for it. Somehow we did really well without any "holy trinity".
If developers are going to insist on following their current and to me quite bland form of game creation. They need to at least be more creative with the classes and roles. I think it was Blood Mage? in Vanguard that healed with its damaging spells. Of course then you have to think outside the box on your overall game design. However, I would say obviously something has to be done (then again I guess I'm just bored with how MMO's are designed currently and maybe its just fine for most).
That's the problem though. Even if it's designed so you DON'T need the holy trinity (ie, PSU), there's a lot of players who insist that unless you're using the holy trinity, you're doing it wrong.
In PSO/PSU, using the holy trinity model is an ACTIVELY bad decision. It's not a little bad, it's ACTIVELY bad. Like, it's worse than playing the right way. Yet people still played that way, because somehow WoW broke something inside of their head, or something.
Basically the point I'm trying to make.
People, and especially developers, should stop expecting other people to always be reasonable and friendly. Because we're not. And yes, this includes you, the reader. And yes, this also includes me.
Games should be made much more on a WYSIWYG ( What You See Is What You Get ) basis if they use the trinity system. A healer class should be exactly that, a healer. Don't give him a DPS tree. Don't give DPS classes some healing skills. Don't give tanks options to go full DPS. That way when you see a healing class you know you're getting a healing class.
Design your game so you no longer need DPS specs to level up with any kind of speed. Maybe create some quests that can be completed without commiting genocide on entire fantasy species in as short a time as possible? Make grouping a viable way to level up right from level 1?
If you think that you lose a lot of variety and options with such a system that's fine. Use a skill-based system or a non-trinity class system. Those systems give way more variety and options then a trinity system ever could. If however you use a trinity system, then do it right and don't give the illusion of variety when in the end the largest part of your playerbase will end up in one spec anyway.
My point exactly. It's stupid of developers to mix stuff like this when using a trinity system. You only end up creating spec trees that most of your playerbase will not use except maybe to grind to max lvl as fast as possible.
Split the class. Create the priest class which gets all the holy stuff and then create a defiler class which gets all the shadow stuff. You like Shadow Priests? Pick that defiler and you won't ever have a falling out with your guild because you don't like healing. Because you can't heal. You're not a healing class. You're a DPS class. So you DPS.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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This sounds a lot like you're saying "Rather than change my own preconceived notions of class capabilities, and how players have fun, I'd prefer games to be designed in a way that's less fun to the majority of people."
All you have to do is go "LFM Tank" and POOF you're gonna find people who want to tank (just like you did in every game before the ones that let players flexibly switch roles.)
Just seems weird to want the genre to take a huge step backwards in fun, just because you're unwilling to change your preconceived notions of class capabilities.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The problem here really is the whole trinity system of combat. Rift is a game that boast all these options, with the soul trees that allows players to play their class exactly how they want. However just like the majority of trinity MMOs it becomes known that a certain class will be known best for it's "healing, tanking, DPSing, etc." and so those classes will end up pigeonholded into those catergories. Quite frankly I find that counter-intuitive to the MMO genre, which should be about bringing people together. Rift did take a step forward in the right direction, with its public grouping & rifts but the holy trinity is really what's holding it back. Because you'll always get people saying "You're doing it wrong!", even if you specced you character the way you wanted to spec it and you're really good & having a lot of fun with it, you'll always be pigeonheld into you're class' well-known role.
This is why a game like Guild Wars 2 cannot come soon enough, because instead of trying to side-step the issue like Rift has done; by allowing most of their classes to become viable healers or tanks, meaning you won't have to spend too long looking for one. The team behind Guild Wars 2 are trying to tackle the issue by removing the archaic holy trinity and giving the player options to define their own playstyle. Even The Secret World is doing something similar to this philosophy of combat but I'm not sure if that game still follows the same tank, healer, DPS thing. Can someone clarify, cause I remember seeing a vid where some guy was healing?
Maybe I'm just lucky but the two WoW servers I haunted for years, rarely saw someone "LFM priest" and expect it to be a healer. They would often say "LFM Priest heals" or "LFM paladin tank" etc etc.
The implication that a player who has a healing spec available should heal is absurd. What if a class had no DPS spec, does that mean that every player of a class with a dps spec should be able to play DPS? I liked Holy Paladin in WoW and I loved Prot but you couldn't pay me to ret. I didn't have the mind for it--I was more interested in using abils like Hand[s] of Sacrifice, Protection, Freedom and Salvation, and abilities like DIvine Guardian (none of which are for personal dps) than I was about smacking the boss.
I have met my share of friendly shadow priests that would toss out shields on people who were low health, shamans that would use totems that would most assist the group's chance of success and paladins who knew their auras and knew their Hand spells.
People should play the roles they like. Taking one talent or subspec'ing to assist a consistent group (a guild or a weekly pug) is one thing and if you're a team player, that's a kind thing to do but if you don't find tanking fun, just because Warriors have a few tank specs doesn't mean you should be required to tank.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
You make it sound like specialization hurts group play, when in fact the opposite is true.
It boils down to the question "Why should I group?"
In games where characters can do everything (can do everything at any given moment), the answer is a weak "Uh, I guess because we damage things a bit faster."
In games where characters have strong roles, the answer is a strong "Obviously I have to group -- there's no way I could survive being hit like a tank can, or heal like a healer can, or deal damage like a DPSer can."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No. The holy trinity is firmly entrenched into the minds of the players. EQ is the perfect example, and in some sense, the origin of the trinity. The trinity was a good group setup. It worked. But it was hardly a great group setup for EQ. So many other group combinations kill mobs faster, killed them in larger numbers at the same time, gained much better exp rates, and could pull more boss mobs for loot drops than a trinity group.
However, could you form one of these groups? Highly unlikly. It was trinity or nothing (the vast majority of the time) despite the game mechanics supporting nearly any combination in a way that provided more benefit than the trinity through the PoP expansion and perhaps beyond. From my experience, the players are the problem and not game mechanics most of the time. I have similar experiences in other MMOs and non-MMOs.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I've learned through conversations around the forums that people mean different things when lamenting the Trinity.
Some people mean that they want a game where everyone is a superhero. A DPS that can take the punches and heal the harder ones which is what you're talking about.
Other people mean they want a game where there's the Holy Trinity but there's a the guy who can dps and heal, off-tank and dps, buff the party and do a little healing or dps, etc etc. The off-tanking dps would be able to tank smaller content, and probably have better threat (depending on threat modifiers) though a dragon would eat them, outside of the 6 or 30 seconds cooldowns might last.
Some FFXI merit groups, for instance could do just fine with a bard and dancer for healers. The only reasons most merit groups (endgame exping party) demanded having a healer is they're the only ones that had practical applications of the Haste ability. (Summoners didn't merit). I imagine it's clear what a bard was.. a dancer was something like a rogue that could use it's Tactical Power (built from auto attack hits) to heal.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.