I seem to remeber a Star Wars semi-sand box game that everyone loved. Until the beast that kills MMO's did what it does.
I remember it quite differently. There wasn't too many people saying how much they loved SWG. In fact there was guite a bit of complaining about it PRE-CU eg: broken professions, bugs, rubberbanding, lag, boring,not star warsy,etc. Its positives were far outweighed by its negatives.
Talk about over dramatic... Why does everyone need this game to be a huge failure or a huge success? Why is there no middle ground? Also, why does everyone insist on putting meaningless tags on these types of games? Either you like the game, or you don't, its going to be that simple. MMO fans are notorius for complaining to no end about how a mmo company sucks (SOE is a good example) yet they spend thousands of dollars supporting and playing their games. So the real problem... MMO fans just want to have something to scream about. Anyone on here who says that SOE is this horrible company, yet pays for one or many of there games on a monthly basis is the target of what I am talking about. It it these people that hurt the MMO community as a whole. You scream and yell to the world about how "so and so sucks" and you "will never buy another one of their games" and then a game comes out and you are first in line to try ot and sub to it.
These people confuse the industry as a whole and force it to opperate by treating their users with a double standard due to the fact that this is how their users talk about and treat them. Start up companies think they are going to be the ones to please this type of player, yet they never do... The simple reason for this is that these players already enjoy the current games they are playing. They like giving SOE (or whoever) a hard time. It is part of their experience as a gamer. They like having someone to blame for each and every little thing that goes wrong. Nevermind that a couple of these companies have proven time and time again that they were at times the benchmark for success in developing and sustaining a mmo.
People have to stop waiting for a game to change their life. Simple fact is, nothing is going to replicate your first experience in Everquest 1, Ultima Online, DAoC, or even World Of Warcraft for the younger players, and the reason for that is you now know better. You know that it is unhealty to let a game swallow you up whole. You have come back from that and something about you is protecting you from doing that to your life again with another game. At the end of the day, its probably a good thing. Just like you can never again have sex for the first time, or go to your favorite vacation spot for the first time, or relive high school... These things are gone in the past. You cannot do them again. Its time to start being fair to developers and stop demanding it of them.
It is possible that maybe, just maybe this Star Wars game will do that for people. But it won't be for MMORPG vets like us. It will be for the new MMORPG gamers that it draws in. It will be their first love, it will be their benchmark, their golden era so to speak. We had our moment in the sun and it is gone. Its time for people to move on and just accept the fact. Its time for us to stop being jealous of the people who will be able to have this moment because they have never had it before.
I am glad to see an established game developer like Bioware jump into the MMO scene. These guys make RPG's and it looks like they are trying to make a mmo that actually has the rpg elements put back into it. The thing is they give us a role to play instead of letting us create our own role. That is also something that BioWare has always done. If it was such a successful way to make RPG's in the past I do not see why it would not work at a MMORPG in the present.
And I totally agree with the article's sentiment about Sandbox games. If people want them so bad why the heck dont they go play the ones that are out there? I believe I have the answer to that. Go back to Mr. Barttle and his assessment of online game reward. It's all about the items. Item reward in a structured, safe environment is what tickles most people where it counts. Other types of less tangible rewards just don't cut it.
Oh and yea don't every try and take an item from someone! Boy do the gamers of today ever NOT like that! Everybody is a winner and everyone get a treat these days. It is not just expected, It is demanded. All they have to do is show up, click a few buttons and "cha-ching" Your A Winner!
Actualy, by far, the largest category of players for online games are the "social" types...it's just that most of them are playing face-book style games...not MMO's. Trust me, the first MMO that roped in the Oprah crowd would be making Blizzard drool with envy.
Extraordinay is a good word. What an extraordinary response to a column. Exactly what a columnist wants of course. Plainly it hit a nerve.
Now what does all that mean to me as a player who is willing to buy and play an MMO? I am an unrepentant SW fan. I like the more traditional aspects (such as movent controls (WASD)/mouse, not having FPS, not having open world PvP etc. I like the new stuff being advertised (Companions/personalized story/world arcs). I am looking forward to the game. I will buy it, including a Collectors Edition if offered. I will subscribe to it and I hope and expect to enjoy the game. There are thing I don't like such as an arcade rail shooter space combat but willing to take that in stride.
To the 'hater' who inferred that I was uninformed, ignorant, idiotic and 'fanboi', you are smart to make such insults on a forum since you can't get punched out in person. The only 'violence' resulting from your insulting first line (yes - you with the 6666 in your sig) will be a battle of wits. Your first line of comment shows that in such a case you will be unarmed.
I played SWG when it first came out but found it somewhat boring, lacking information or directional help, just a simple personal opinion and finally left. Doesn't mean anything about my personal character, or lack thereof, just wasn't the game I hoped it would be. No big deal to me, maby noreso to the company who lost my contribution to their coffers.
OOOPS! Website cut my reply off. Getting to far off the subject I guess. Ok, whether a 'sandbox' or 'themepark' I will decide to pay and play from the genre and mechanics, not the type of setting. So there! Short and sweet this edit is!
I haven't read the whole thread - but what I did read didn't touch on my thought about the article:
That what SWTOR is being created for is the result of the market WE created?
Well, honestly, I haven't felt that WE have had any influence on this market for quite some time.
Developers produce what they want to produce. They have a 'vision' and that is pretty much it.
I haven't seen a lot of evidence that most developers actually look at the market and say "there is an untapped potential doing it this way".
(Exceptions: KingsIsle - tapping into the pre teen market? Turbine - with a new model F2P system (which probably borrowed a lot from KingsIsle's model and expanded on it?)?)
Take Vigil and WH40K:DMO - look at what they are producing - practically every man and his dog has told them they are making huge mistakes from the very beginning and market history of similar designs says the same... yet they don't appear to be listening.
And they are not alone.
Historically, I could produce many more examples.
Bioware appear to be producing a game they are comfortable with in the style they are comfortable with. It suits the existing capabilities of that studio. They have a vision and they are running with it.
But, if everything told them they were wrong - if every gamer reaction suggested imminent failure - do you think they would change?
I don't.
Because most developers aren't listening - they haven't been for a while. We get what we are given.
Talk about over dramatic... Why does everyone need this game to be a huge failure or a huge success? Why is there no middle ground? Also, why does everyone insist on putting meaningless tags on these types of games? Either you like the game, or you don't, its going to be that simple. MMO fans are notorius for complaining to no end about how a mmo company sucks (SOE is a good example) yet they spend thousands of dollars supporting and playing their games. So the real problem... MMO fans just want to have something to scream about. Anyone on here who says that SOE is this horrible company, yet pays for one or many of there games on a monthly basis is the target of what I am talking about. It it these people that hurt the MMO community as a whole. You scream and yell to the world about how "so and so sucks" and you "will never buy another one of their games" and then a game comes out and you are first in line to try ot and sub to it.
These people confuse the industry as a whole and force it to opperate by treating their users with a double standard due to the fact that this is how their users talk about and treat them. Start up companies think they are going to be the ones to please this type of player, yet they never do... The simple reason for this is that these players already enjoy the current games they are playing. They like giving SOE (or whoever) a hard time. It is part of their experience as a gamer. They like having someone to blame for each and every little thing that goes wrong. Nevermind that a couple of these companies have proven time and time again that they were at times the benchmark for success in developing and sustaining a mmo.
People have to stop waiting for a game to change their life. Simple fact is, nothing is going to replicate your first experience in Everquest 1, Ultima Online, DAoC, or even World Of Warcraft for the younger players, and the reason for that is you now know better. You know that it is unhealty to let a game swallow you up whole. You have come back from that and something about you is protecting you from doing that to your life again with another game. At the end of the day, its probably a good thing. Just like you can never again have sex for the first time, or go to your favorite vacation spot for the first time, or relive high school... These things are gone in the past. You cannot do them again. Its time to start being fair to developers and stop demanding it of them.
It is possible that maybe, just maybe this Star Wars game will do that for people. But it won't be for MMORPG vets like us. It will be for the new MMORPG gamers that it draws in. It will be their first love, it will be their benchmark, their golden era so to speak. We had our moment in the sun and it is gone. Its time for people to move on and just accept the fact. Its time for us to stop being jealous of the people who will be able to have this moment because they have never had it before.
I agree 100%. People are just envious that they cant seem to find that spark with other games that came from their first. And because of this they think they need to shit alover everything that launches because "Its just a clone of [insert game here].". Which is why I almost never talk on gamer community forums. There are so many trolls it would take a fucking atomic bomb to kill even a fraction of a percent of them. And the funny thing is if you think EVERYTHING is a clone of one of your favorite games, why not play it then? It's obviously a prettier, more updated version, of the games you fell in love with. So instead of being a bunch of ball busters, just shut up and play the damn things. Because you know you're going to get bored 6 months down the road and try it out anyway. Honestly, if I was a game developer, I'd say, "Fuck the playerbase. They dont appreciate anything we do anyways. Lets just make what WE WANT.".
Anyway ... Im not happy with the animations and feel it might be cut out of the polish phase. Also doesnt seem to have a lot of dynamic lighting. /shrug, I worry about the openess with a mission type system. One sand box or a bunch if really small ones?
Gotta say i've read some of the coments and can't agree at all with some of them.
Most MMORPG's lack what was more apealing in them: the story.
I started playing WoW a few years ago because i loved the fluidness of the gameplay but for sometime i felt that i wasn't getting what i wanted out of it. That was till they made a couple of quests with cinematics and others that made you feel like you had a more active role in the world around you with the phasing system.
The cinematics allow you to not have to read about what happened but instead watch it has the phasing made the same area gradually change has you advanced in the story.
Also regarding the sandbox needs... Like many coments have stated a sandbox game need to be finished or near finished. Don't insult players by saying that it's like that because it is a sandbox game.
A game that comes to mind when i think of this is SWG. The pathing on the characters was so bad that i couldn't stand to play that more then 30-60 mins.
On the other hand EVE is a huge sucess and, yes that game had bugs at start, but it was a complete game since the moment it lauched.
It evolved gradually and every expansion was free of charge (one of the thing that i believe helped keep subscribers was the fact that you never had to pay for anything else other then the original game and a monthly fee) but this is another matter. What matters is the game grew more and more gradually increasing the number of subscribers because they didn't make half assed stuff.
To those saying this is a "WoW-Killer", tbh i hope it will be because that means this will be tons better then WoW ever was. Unfortunatly no one can claim that for sure. Time will tell
On the other hand EVE is a huge sucess and, yes that game had bugs at start, but it was a complete game since the moment it lauched.
This really depends on your definition of a complete game. EVE end game is entirely based on PvP, so they had no need for max level dungeons and raids. And also, because the skill system is based on real time, they knew how long it would take people to reach certain milestones so that helped them with pushing out what they needed when they needed. But EVE as it is now, is a huge improvement over what it was at the start.
Traditional MMO's do not have this luxury, and mmo's looking to emulate EVE never find enough of a community to help them through the first few months.
Star Wars has always been a theme park. I was always surprised Lucas didn't just build one-he's certainly exploited it in every other way.
However-I refuse to believe that an MMO from a company that has never made one before is going to influence the future of the genre. If it came from an established company that knows what it is doing-Turbine,NC Soft,Funcom,etc-I'd at least accept such a notion. But from MMO newbes-no way.They don't have the experience to influence anything.
Comments
I remember it quite differently. There wasn't too many people saying how much they loved SWG. In fact there was guite a bit of complaining about it PRE-CU eg: broken professions, bugs, rubberbanding, lag, boring,not star warsy,etc. Its positives were far outweighed by its negatives.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Talk about over dramatic... Why does everyone need this game to be a huge failure or a huge success? Why is there no middle ground? Also, why does everyone insist on putting meaningless tags on these types of games? Either you like the game, or you don't, its going to be that simple. MMO fans are notorius for complaining to no end about how a mmo company sucks (SOE is a good example) yet they spend thousands of dollars supporting and playing their games. So the real problem... MMO fans just want to have something to scream about. Anyone on here who says that SOE is this horrible company, yet pays for one or many of there games on a monthly basis is the target of what I am talking about. It it these people that hurt the MMO community as a whole. You scream and yell to the world about how "so and so sucks" and you "will never buy another one of their games" and then a game comes out and you are first in line to try ot and sub to it.
These people confuse the industry as a whole and force it to opperate by treating their users with a double standard due to the fact that this is how their users talk about and treat them. Start up companies think they are going to be the ones to please this type of player, yet they never do... The simple reason for this is that these players already enjoy the current games they are playing. They like giving SOE (or whoever) a hard time. It is part of their experience as a gamer. They like having someone to blame for each and every little thing that goes wrong. Nevermind that a couple of these companies have proven time and time again that they were at times the benchmark for success in developing and sustaining a mmo.
People have to stop waiting for a game to change their life. Simple fact is, nothing is going to replicate your first experience in Everquest 1, Ultima Online, DAoC, or even World Of Warcraft for the younger players, and the reason for that is you now know better. You know that it is unhealty to let a game swallow you up whole. You have come back from that and something about you is protecting you from doing that to your life again with another game. At the end of the day, its probably a good thing. Just like you can never again have sex for the first time, or go to your favorite vacation spot for the first time, or relive high school... These things are gone in the past. You cannot do them again. Its time to start being fair to developers and stop demanding it of them.
It is possible that maybe, just maybe this Star Wars game will do that for people. But it won't be for MMORPG vets like us. It will be for the new MMORPG gamers that it draws in. It will be their first love, it will be their benchmark, their golden era so to speak. We had our moment in the sun and it is gone. Its time for people to move on and just accept the fact. Its time for us to stop being jealous of the people who will be able to have this moment because they have never had it before.
Actualy, by far, the largest category of players for online games are the "social" types...it's just that most of them are playing face-book style games...not MMO's. Trust me, the first MMO that roped in the Oprah crowd would be making Blizzard drool with envy.
Extraordinay is a good word. What an extraordinary response to a column. Exactly what a columnist wants of course. Plainly it hit a nerve.
Now what does all that mean to me as a player who is willing to buy and play an MMO? I am an unrepentant SW fan. I like the more traditional aspects (such as movent controls (WASD)/mouse, not having FPS, not having open world PvP etc. I like the new stuff being advertised (Companions/personalized story/world arcs). I am looking forward to the game. I will buy it, including a Collectors Edition if offered. I will subscribe to it and I hope and expect to enjoy the game. There are thing I don't like such as an arcade rail shooter space combat but willing to take that in stride.
To the 'hater' who inferred that I was uninformed, ignorant, idiotic and 'fanboi', you are smart to make such insults on a forum since you can't get punched out in person. The only 'violence' resulting from your insulting first line (yes - you with the 6666 in your sig) will be a battle of wits. Your first line of comment shows that in such a case you will be unarmed.
I played SWG when it first came out but found it somewhat boring, lacking information or directional help, just a simple personal opinion and finally left. Doesn't mean anything about my personal character, or lack thereof, just wasn't the game I hoped it would be. No big deal to me, maby noreso to the company who lost my contribution to their coffers.
Now a
OOOPS! Website cut my reply off. Getting to far off the subject I guess. Ok, whether a 'sandbox' or 'themepark' I will decide to pay and play from the genre and mechanics, not the type of setting. So there! Short and sweet this edit is!
I haven't read the whole thread - but what I did read didn't touch on my thought about the article:
That what SWTOR is being created for is the result of the market WE created?
Well, honestly, I haven't felt that WE have had any influence on this market for quite some time.
Developers produce what they want to produce. They have a 'vision' and that is pretty much it.
I haven't seen a lot of evidence that most developers actually look at the market and say "there is an untapped potential doing it this way".
(Exceptions: KingsIsle - tapping into the pre teen market? Turbine - with a new model F2P system (which probably borrowed a lot from KingsIsle's model and expanded on it?)?)
Take Vigil and WH40K:DMO - look at what they are producing - practically every man and his dog has told them they are making huge mistakes from the very beginning and market history of similar designs says the same... yet they don't appear to be listening.
And they are not alone.
Historically, I could produce many more examples.
Bioware appear to be producing a game they are comfortable with in the style they are comfortable with. It suits the existing capabilities of that studio. They have a vision and they are running with it.
But, if everything told them they were wrong - if every gamer reaction suggested imminent failure - do you think they would change?
I don't.
Because most developers aren't listening - they haven't been for a while. We get what we are given.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I agree 100%. People are just envious that they cant seem to find that spark with other games that came from their first. And because of this they think they need to shit alover everything that launches because "Its just a clone of [insert game here].". Which is why I almost never talk on gamer community forums. There are so many trolls it would take a fucking atomic bomb to kill even a fraction of a percent of them. And the funny thing is if you think EVERYTHING is a clone of one of your favorite games, why not play it then? It's obviously a prettier, more updated version, of the games you fell in love with. So instead of being a bunch of ball busters, just shut up and play the damn things. Because you know you're going to get bored 6 months down the road and try it out anyway. Honestly, if I was a game developer, I'd say, "Fuck the playerbase. They dont appreciate anything we do anyways. Lets just make what WE WANT.".
Oh bother! ... miss post
Anyway ... Im not happy with the animations and feel it might be cut out of the polish phase. Also doesnt seem to have a lot of dynamic lighting. /shrug, I worry about the openess with a mission type system. One sand box or a bunch if really small ones?
Gotta say i've read some of the coments and can't agree at all with some of them.
Most MMORPG's lack what was more apealing in them: the story.
I started playing WoW a few years ago because i loved the fluidness of the gameplay but for sometime i felt that i wasn't getting what i wanted out of it. That was till they made a couple of quests with cinematics and others that made you feel like you had a more active role in the world around you with the phasing system.
The cinematics allow you to not have to read about what happened but instead watch it has the phasing made the same area gradually change has you advanced in the story.
Also regarding the sandbox needs... Like many coments have stated a sandbox game need to be finished or near finished. Don't insult players by saying that it's like that because it is a sandbox game.
A game that comes to mind when i think of this is SWG. The pathing on the characters was so bad that i couldn't stand to play that more then 30-60 mins.
On the other hand EVE is a huge sucess and, yes that game had bugs at start, but it was a complete game since the moment it lauched.
It evolved gradually and every expansion was free of charge (one of the thing that i believe helped keep subscribers was the fact that you never had to pay for anything else other then the original game and a monthly fee) but this is another matter. What matters is the game grew more and more gradually increasing the number of subscribers because they didn't make half assed stuff.
To those saying this is a "WoW-Killer", tbh i hope it will be because that means this will be tons better then WoW ever was. Unfortunatly no one can claim that for sure. Time will tell
This really depends on your definition of a complete game. EVE end game is entirely based on PvP, so they had no need for max level dungeons and raids. And also, because the skill system is based on real time, they knew how long it would take people to reach certain milestones so that helped them with pushing out what they needed when they needed. But EVE as it is now, is a huge improvement over what it was at the start.
Traditional MMO's do not have this luxury, and mmo's looking to emulate EVE never find enough of a community to help them through the first few months.
Blizzard would like a word with you.