This I think is very exciting news. Instead of trying your best to learn how to play a certain class there is enough flexibility that you can make the class you want to play fit your play style. It makes it far more comfortable and the flexibility is awesome. To think you wont be spending hours over a global chat begging someone of a certain class to do a group instance is great. A group of four is perfect so you can have your tank, off tank, ranged dps, and healing as usual but any number of classes are flexible enough to fill the various roles. So when you join your guild and you get into your core group of friends you don't have to have someone create a character of a certain class and force themselves to learn it in order to have the right combo or spend so much time trying to form a pug. You just have to pick your role and gear up for it before you go. Very nice!
What I think he's trying to say, is that the average AI of NPCs in MMORPGs is so... braindead... that it can be handled by a group of five persons of which the damage dealers share one role, DPS, with very little variation between them. The only challenge can be found in their high health total and/or high damage/healing output A more advanced AI would not be fooled by a group using the Tank'n'spank formula, and would swiftly send them back to Wipeville.
Hmm, while I might be able to see that, I think it would only require better tanking abilities. (maybe not "better" per se, but , "different", to compensate) I do feel that the majority of AI is braindead for MMOs, but I think better AI could also breed better use of classes too. I'm all for better AI, I just can't see how changing the AI would force a change in the need for classes.
I really can't think of a formula for a specific mob that would remove the class restriction. I think that would rely more on the type of combat rather than AI.
By increasing the AI I assume we're talking about instead of the enemy sitting there beating on the most heavily armored guy, they would go after the weakest character. I see two possible outcomes; first, the mob runs over quickly kills the weakest character then slowly moves down the line until it is just the strongest character left, then wipe. Second, the mob runs over to the weakest character, somehow the weakest character stays alive, and the mob beats on the weakest character until it's dead = weakest character is now the tank.
Picture this scenario (while probably not entirely real world accurate), you have a bank robbery and the SWAT team has been called in. You have snipers on the roof, the negotiator on the phone keeping the robbers occupied, dudes with riot shields working their way to the front, and an assault team moving in from the back, with the ambulance in the back waiting for the injured. Pick out the roles for me.
(On a side note, how many times in PVP have we seen all the dps beat on the warrior while the healer stands in the back and heals everyone. Maybe we should increast thier AI :P)
By all means, suggest a better concept. Too many people complain about things they want to have changed, but have no intention of taking a hand personally in that change.
Easy... Guild Wars 2. Not saying it's the best for everyone but it's the best for someone like me and is an interesting evolution of the Trinity. Sure you can just come back and say it's a devolution, or bash me as a "Guild Wars 2 Fanboy" for all I care. But as long as the class system allows me to deine myself, without pissing people off and keep me awake during combat, then I'm good. ^_^
It's not an evolution of the trinity. They just rearranged some of the abilities for archetypes, changed names, and made healing less important. That's not evolution to me. Here's their naming scheme:
I always find it odd that people complain about roles. Roles bring order from chaos and even games that claim they have no trinity you know the players will just assign roles to group members.
I think you pointed the difference but you are not even aware of it. Being forced to a role at character creation, and being able to choose your role on the fly make a huge difference, be it in group or during solo. In group it let you go and play even without that or that classe, because someone can and will take the 'missing' role. In solo its is no more scissor/paper 'lack' of strategy, but more a retreat/heal/attack strategie you have to adapt in your fights. It make a big difference. I personally prefer no trinity games, they are a lot more interesting and flexible, and i think the only people that won't agree are those that never played non trinity mmos.
Now about SWOR the game really seam to shape well, i'm a bit undecided about the game overall, not long ago i was pretty negative in fact.
Bioware have made for me the best story game with NWN with the nicest stories in computer games (personal opinion here), but i really didn't like their last solo rpg games, that are way too narrow minded for me and everything seam to be on a on/off switch in them. So i will see, in any case SWOR look a lot less "old fashion theme park" than i expected, even if it clearly is a theme park. They are few aspects that also attract me like the space ship and crew feature, i hope they will develop their space battle a lot further and give to the universe the dimension it should have beyond just story telling component. A bit the way it is handled in Eve, you can always dream...
Once more my worst grip about Bioware, is that they really have a nice gaming history, but they just go too much into the narrow minded path since NWN. But few detail made me think SWOR project kind of distracted them from this path simply because an mmo have some needs a single player rpg don't, like the way they changed the companions, the classes, i don't know how much story telling evolved but i wouldn't be surprise if they made some change to open them more to suit more player styles too. I think they are also undecided about class shifting, i think they should allow this, a lot of people like to bound with one character yet wish to see as much as possible before deciding what role they will stick to in long therm. I also think they should think about adding a neutral alignement, i don't even understand why this is not ingame, and once more their narrow minded is my only explanation. We will see all this at release i guess.
I think this is a good thing. Anything that increases the variety of roles you can fill with different classes is good in my opinion.
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."
By all means, suggest a better concept. Too many people complain about things they want to have changed, but have no intention of taking a hand personally in that change.
Easy... Guild Wars 2. Not saying it's the best for everyone but it's the best for someone like me and is an interesting evolution of the Trinity. Sure you can just come back and say it's a devolution, or bash me as a "Guild Wars 2 Fanboy" for all I care. But as long as the class system allows me to deine myself, without pissing people off and keep me awake during combat, then I'm good. ^_^
It's not an evolution of the trinity. They just rearranged some of the abilities for archetypes, changed names, and made healing less important. That's not evolution to me. Here's their naming scheme:
Tank=Control
Heal=Support
Dps=Damage
Actually in a game like GW2 they make it impossible to become a dedicated healer or tank character by getting rid of the standard aggro mechanic (taunting & holding isn't possible) and by making it impossible to target individual allies for heals. Also healing your ally is a lot less effective than allowing them to heal themselves, so when they talk about support skills they mean stuff that Supports their allies, not just heals. Same with Control, cause skills like stuns, knock downs and knock backs aren't skills that are locked into any particular Class archetype. So even if you can label roles in GW2 like in other MMOs, doesn't mean the professions are locked into said roles like in other MMOs.
So a profession like the Thief (a very mobile oriented profression) can provide good burst damage, can control their opponents with stuns & knockdowns and support their team with whatever skill they manage to steal. And I can do all of that without having to re-spec or re-roll, and just do whatever the situation calls for me to do. That's what I call and evolution of the Trinity.
Comments
This I think is very exciting news. Instead of trying your best to learn how to play a certain class there is enough flexibility that you can make the class you want to play fit your play style. It makes it far more comfortable and the flexibility is awesome. To think you wont be spending hours over a global chat begging someone of a certain class to do a group instance is great. A group of four is perfect so you can have your tank, off tank, ranged dps, and healing as usual but any number of classes are flexible enough to fill the various roles. So when you join your guild and you get into your core group of friends you don't have to have someone create a character of a certain class and force themselves to learn it in order to have the right combo or spend so much time trying to form a pug. You just have to pick your role and gear up for it before you go. Very nice!
By increasing the AI I assume we're talking about instead of the enemy sitting there beating on the most heavily armored guy, they would go after the weakest character. I see two possible outcomes; first, the mob runs over quickly kills the weakest character then slowly moves down the line until it is just the strongest character left, then wipe. Second, the mob runs over to the weakest character, somehow the weakest character stays alive, and the mob beats on the weakest character until it's dead = weakest character is now the tank.
Picture this scenario (while probably not entirely real world accurate), you have a bank robbery and the SWAT team has been called in. You have snipers on the roof, the negotiator on the phone keeping the robbers occupied, dudes with riot shields working their way to the front, and an assault team moving in from the back, with the ambulance in the back waiting for the injured. Pick out the roles for me.
(On a side note, how many times in PVP have we seen all the dps beat on the warrior while the healer stands in the back and heals everyone. Maybe we should increast thier AI :P)
It's not an evolution of the trinity. They just rearranged some of the abilities for archetypes, changed names, and made healing less important. That's not evolution to me. Here's their naming scheme:
Tank=Control
Heal=Support
Dps=Damage
I think you pointed the difference but you are not even aware of it. Being forced to a role at character creation, and being able to choose your role on the fly make a huge difference, be it in group or during solo. In group it let you go and play even without that or that classe, because someone can and will take the 'missing' role. In solo its is no more scissor/paper 'lack' of strategy, but more a retreat/heal/attack strategie you have to adapt in your fights. It make a big difference. I personally prefer no trinity games, they are a lot more interesting and flexible, and i think the only people that won't agree are those that never played non trinity mmos.
Now about SWOR the game really seam to shape well, i'm a bit undecided about the game overall, not long ago i was pretty negative in fact.
Bioware have made for me the best story game with NWN with the nicest stories in computer games (personal opinion here), but i really didn't like their last solo rpg games, that are way too narrow minded for me and everything seam to be on a on/off switch in them. So i will see, in any case SWOR look a lot less "old fashion theme park" than i expected, even if it clearly is a theme park. They are few aspects that also attract me like the space ship and crew feature, i hope they will develop their space battle a lot further and give to the universe the dimension it should have beyond just story telling component. A bit the way it is handled in Eve, you can always dream...
Once more my worst grip about Bioware, is that they really have a nice gaming history, but they just go too much into the narrow minded path since NWN. But few detail made me think SWOR project kind of distracted them from this path simply because an mmo have some needs a single player rpg don't, like the way they changed the companions, the classes, i don't know how much story telling evolved but i wouldn't be surprise if they made some change to open them more to suit more player styles too. I think they are also undecided about class shifting, i think they should allow this, a lot of people like to bound with one character yet wish to see as much as possible before deciding what role they will stick to in long therm. I also think they should think about adding a neutral alignement, i don't even understand why this is not ingame, and once more their narrow minded is my only explanation. We will see all this at release i guess.
I think this is a good thing. Anything that increases the variety of roles you can fill with different classes is good in my opinion.
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."
Actually in a game like GW2 they make it impossible to become a dedicated healer or tank character by getting rid of the standard aggro mechanic (taunting & holding isn't possible) and by making it impossible to target individual allies for heals. Also healing your ally is a lot less effective than allowing them to heal themselves, so when they talk about support skills they mean stuff that Supports their allies, not just heals. Same with Control, cause skills like stuns, knock downs and knock backs aren't skills that are locked into any particular Class archetype. So even if you can label roles in GW2 like in other MMOs, doesn't mean the professions are locked into said roles like in other MMOs.
So a profession like the Thief (a very mobile oriented profression) can provide good burst damage, can control their opponents with stuns & knockdowns and support their team with whatever skill they manage to steal. And I can do all of that without having to re-spec or re-roll, and just do whatever the situation calls for me to do. That's what I call and evolution of the Trinity.