I've enjoyed the "WoW" style of dungeons when they came up, but i got bored of it very very fast. There is no sense of accomplishment. In an old dungeon, when you actually killed a boss and got an item, after (sometimes) hours of pvp action (Anarchy Online's Tarasque for example) you felt that you actually "did something". You have something to remember, something to talk about: "well there were 10 of us then a group of 30 from the opposing faction came, we yelled in guild chat, then more of us came, and then more of them came, and it all came to a massive 2h pvp battle".
I'm not a fan of PvP in MMO's, I actively avoid it in most games, but even I had an awesome time in AO's Tarasque battle. Like battling through a ton of other players isn't hard enough, but then you have an epic battle against a dragon to top it off. Fun times!
Actually I consider myself a sandbox MMO gamer. However, I am a very action-focused gamer so I always strive to move forward and try new things in a game. I try to explore every aspect of a game or game feature and lose interest when it becomes routine. SWG became a game full of mindless, meaningless routines to me and did not give me the freedom to go beyond that. It's a similar reason to why I quit EVE earlier. Even A Tale In the Desert is becoming too routine at this point.
The beauty of a well designed thempark game like WoW is that you can play it enough ways that it takes a while for things to become routine. WoW's quest chains were structures well enough that I would move to a new area and new types of challenges just as the previous area became routine. The classes are varied enough that you can replay the same area multiple times in different ways. The biggest problem wtih the game is that when you get to the endgame, things can quicly become too routine as you start farming the same content over and over.
The problem I have with 'old school' sandboxes is that they never had enough sand. You ended up playing with the same sand over and over and building and rebuilding the same sand castles. Things become routine too quickly and they lose the sense of adventure and freedom that attracts me to them.
Sorry, but I just had to butt in. You call yourself a Sandbox MMO gamer but go into lengths on playing and lauding WoW, the very epitome of Themepark MMORPG's.
You go into explaining how you like being led around by the game, being told where to go and what to exactly do, and when to do it. You want the pre-planned, laid out structure of the game of what to exactly do. It's the complete opposite of what a Sandbox game is about.
You're not a Sandbox player. You're Themepark through and through. No sense in trying to hide under a different guise.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
That opinion of yours obviously is NOT shared by critics, and MILLIONS of players who love those games. However, since it is a personal preference, there is obviously no debate about it.
For the record, Bioshock 1 & 2, Dead Space 1 & 2, COD 5 (haven't played black ops yet,but will soon) are all great in my opinon. Obviously we found different things fun.
And no they should not make a movie. I want to shoot (and use different abilities) in a scripted interactive setting. I can kill those enemies myself in a movie.
It's not that I hate the style of game, I have really enjoyed some of them, but some really should be just movies not games, because the gameplay is really lacking. Take Black Ops for example - the whole game you're trying to track down this 'boss', and when you finally get there, do you have some massive battle? Do you have to dive from cover to cover, taking potshots while avoiding incoming enemy fire and ever increasing amounts of mercenaries? No. The ground shakes, the boss slides, you press X to catch the boss. You both fall, you repeatedly press a button to drown him. The end. Did I even need to be there for that?
That is not a game, that is not entertainment, that could be played by a schizophrenic monkey with altzheimers. I used 'played' in a very loose fashion there, of course. There have been some fun linear games, such as the Mass Effect franchise which I've played through multiple times, though ME2 is a lot more restrictive than the first. And there are many others that I've enjoyed, it's just when the game stops appearing to be a game and starts to look like a story where you happen to be pressing buttons now and then, is when I give up on it. It's appeared on YouTube that in Black Ops you seriously don't even need to take part, the support team will kill everything for you.
What I'd like to see are more games that are designed to be just that. Games. Such as Portal, Hitman, Flashpoint, Grand Theft Auto (before IV - especially Vice City), Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, and so on. On the subject of GTA, the change to interactive movie was quite obvious in IV. They removed all the 'game' stuff that was in Vice City, such as racing along a path over rooftops and other crazy places, remote control car destruction, kill streaks with a chainsaw, model helicopter races over the river, and so on. It became far more serious and less 'gamey' - if that's even a word.
Game developers need to look at what they're doing and focus their efforts on creating what their title suggests. Developing a GAME.
First, thank you for spoiling the game for me ... i specificly said i haven't played it YET.
Secondly, who are YOU to say what is a game and what is entertainment. That kind of play, including on rails shooting is used quite a bit in all the modern FPS. I think it is fun ... good way to go through a good story with *some* interaction. Millions obviously agree. Just look at the reviews + sales. Plus, a game like COD has many different segment, some more interactive than others.
It is obvious to me that not everyone craves the same degrees of interactive-ness in a game. It is really a matter of degree.
What i would like to see is well-designed full, entertaining experiences. And i am open mind to what that entails. If it is 70% CGI movie, and 30% shooting ... and it was fun, so be it.
Have you played Metal Gear series? 90% of the game is CGI movie and everyone loves it.
I was arguing the point that MORE MMORPG titles in the genere is good for the gamers. If we are talking about gamers, as a general term for ALL gamers.....then again, I disagree for the reasons I stated.
Despite there being hundreds of more MMORPG games available today than there were 10 years ago, our options aren't that much more varied.....I think thats a bad thing for the MMO industry.
I take issues with that statement. The notion that there is something "good" for ALL gamer is flawed (in fact, go read Ken Arrow's impossibility theorem to show that you really can't have something that is good for everyone, if everyone has difference preferences).
Even assume developers don't care about making money. Is spending a lot of resources making a game that only 1 person plays a good thing for "ALL gamers"? Obviously everyone but this person will disagree. Everyone will only care about games THEY want to play.
And when you say whether it is good or bad for an industry .. what do you actually mean? If the industry grows, have more customers, isn't that a GOOD thing?
You whole point about good or bad bois down "you likes it or you don't". No more and no less.
Actually I consider myself a sandbox MMO gamer. However, I am a very action-focused gamer so I always strive to move forward and try new things in a game. I try to explore every aspect of a game or game feature and lose interest when it becomes routine. SWG became a game full of mindless, meaningless routines to me and did not give me the freedom to go beyond that. It's a similar reason to why I quit EVE earlier. Even A Tale In the Desert is becoming too routine at this point.
The beauty of a well designed thempark game like WoW is that you can play it enough ways that it takes a while for things to become routine. WoW's quest chains were structures well enough that I would move to a new area and new types of challenges just as the previous area became routine. The classes are varied enough that you can replay the same area multiple times in different ways. The biggest problem wtih the game is that when you get to the endgame, things can quicly become too routine as you start farming the same content over and over.
The problem I have with 'old school' sandboxes is that they never had enough sand. You ended up playing with the same sand over and over and building and rebuilding the same sand castles. Things become routine too quickly and they lose the sense of adventure and freedom that attracts me to them.
Sorry, but I just had to butt in. You call yourself a Sandbox MMO gamer but go into lengths on playing and lauding WoW, the very epitome of Themepark MMORPG's.
You go into explaining how you like being led around by the game, being told where to go and what to exactly do, and when to do it. You want the pre-planned, laid out structure of the game of what to exactly do. It's the complete opposite of what a Sandbox game is about.
You're not a Sandbox player. You're Themepark through and through. No sense in trying to hide under a different guise.
Torik and a few others have been trying to prop up the EQ/WoW clones for some time.
But guys, it's not that a few people are rousing the rabble. It's that the rabble has genuinely become tired and unhappy with the current fare.
First, thank you for spoiling the game for me ... i specificly said i haven't played it YET.
Secondly, who are YOU to say what is a game and what is entertainment. That kind of play, including on rails shooting is used quite a bit in all the modern FPS. I think it is fun ... good way to go through a good story with *some* interaction. Millions obviously agree. Just look at the reviews + sales. Plus, a game like COD has many different segment, some more interactive than others.
It is obvious to me that not everyone craves the same degrees of interactive-ness in a game. It is really a matter of degree.
What i would like to see is well-designed full, entertaining experiences. And i am open mind to what that entails. If it is 70% CGI movie, and 30% shooting ... and it was fun, so be it.
Have you played Metal Gear series? 90% of the game is CGI movie and everyone loves it.
I guess I just saved you wasting your money on the trash that is Black Ops then. And who am I to say what is a game and entertainment? I could ask the same of you. We're both consumers, we both pay for games, we both pay for entertainment, if I'm not finding it in my purchases then it's obviously not aimed at my tastes. I'm sure I'm not the only human on planet earth who dislikes these modern releases.
I think the problem came around with the release of consoles. Games were a lot deeper on the PC until consoles turned up, then they had to make it all flashy and movie-like (as its played on a TV - and that's what you see on TV's), simple to play because of the awful controller and easy because of all the younger generation who would be getting one for Christmas.
So developers stopped making deep games for PC only and instead concentrated on making something that would work on a console while being easily portable to the PC. There are still some great PC developers, but most software houses seem to be focusing on simplicity and 'movies' to fit easy mode consoles.
For me this would be a hard thing to vote on. Due to I really think there might be a gamemaker out there who has the potential to bring back what everyone is looking for. I started with WoW and atually went backward not forward. If there had been an option to vote on for lack of content, lack of innovation, lack of imagination for new ideas, I would have voted. I do think there was a lot more fresh ideas back when those came out. It is kind of like people have gotten into a stalemate for new ideas instead of coming up with something new and fresh it is like playing the same games oever and over, using a lot of things that came out of older games.
I look forward to when someone comes up with their own new thing that no one has done before. I hope that is not lost. I hope that people still have enough in them and are not blocked too much to do that. That is what is seems like is that it is like writer's block but everyone instead of waiting out the writer's block is in such a hurry to outdo the last guy that they don't wait for the light bulb idea that is actually going to outdo them. Or maybe it is time to hire new writers with fresh ideas I have never seen an industry that does not have to do that every once in a while to freshen things up a bit.
Well i don't think we can truly blame WoW. After all all it did was what every game wishes to do: sell, a lot. The problem though is that it's huge success has created a market benchmark. Why would a dev aspire to be like , lets say, eve which maybe has 1% of the amount of players of WoW? On the other hand one can hope that the WoW-like (wow-clone seems a bit too strong) market will get saturated and devs realize that.
I personally believe the future lies in sandboxes, but the problem is that those are much harder to correctly make. I mean, regardless of how much i love eve it has a lot of problems on many aspects. WoW however is pretty much doing fine (not that i like everything about it but it doesn't have "objective" problems). So it will take some time before sandboxes find a good working formula but when it gets there i'm fairly certain we will be in for a treat! let's just hope sanbox devs don't abandon the ship to join the themepark train.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
World of Warcraft sold mediocrity to everyone @ a premium....
And established that kid's parents are a larger sum of wealth, than adult Role Players, who expect premium content. Thus the division of cheap onliine arcade games & premium MMORPG's faded. Blizzard sold glitz as depth and younsters don't understand game technology, so they were sold on the "ease" and mediocrity of WoW.
Since the world was filled with millions of mediocre gamers, WoW florished.
WoW, Conan, Lord of the rings are all sub-par, fast food type games. They should not come with a price of $14+ a month. They should reside in the $4 ~ $9/month bin and let true MMORPG's demanding a premium for their rich & deep content.
Mediocre gamers? WTH?!?! When did gaming become a profession to excel at? IT"S A HOBBY FOR F***s sake! I swear, the elitist attitude of some of you is becoming a joke.
Take a deeeeepppppp look in the mirror, realize gaming is a hobby that is meant to be FUN and that not everyone subscribes to your view of the world. You'll be a better person for it...
Your opinion and I suggest you start your own on-line company. Just don't expect it to make much of a profit...
lol.. another kid that needs to grow up..^^.
You assume that if something is mediocre, it's bad... .. it just means, "just enough to suite the masses". There is nothing special about WoW, except it's "unspecialness". WoW is the McDonalds of the MMORPG industry.. somehow, if u don't understand that, then you havn't been around long.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
World of Warcraft sold mediocrity to everyone @ a premium....
And established that kid's parents are a larger sum of wealth, than adult Role Players, who expect premium content. Thus the division of cheap onliine arcade games & premium MMORPG's faded. Blizzard sold glitz as depth and younsters don't understand game technology, so they were sold on the "ease" and mediocrity of WoW.
Since the world was filled with millions of mediocre gamers, WoW florished.
WoW, Conan, Lord of the rings are all sub-par, fast food type games. They should not come with a price of $14+ a month. They should reside in the $4 ~ $9/month bin and let true MMORPG's demanding a premium for their rich & deep content.
Mediocre gamers? WTH?!?! When did gaming become a profession to excel at? IT"S A HOBBY FOR F***s sake! I swear, the elitist attitude of some of you is becoming a joke.
Take a deeeeepppppp look in the mirror, realize gaming is a hobby that is meant to be FUN and that not everyone subscribes to your view of the world. You'll be a better person for it...
Your opinion and I suggest you start your own on-line company. Just don't expect it to make much of a profit...
lol.. another kid that needs to grow up..^^.
You assume that if something is mediocre, it's bad... .. it just means, "just enough to suite the masses". There is nothing special about WoW, except it's "unspecialness". WoW is the McDonalds of the MMORPG industry.. somehow, if u don't understand that, then you havn't been around long.
I have to say I agree, I kind of prefer playing with the mediocre crowd we don't leave raids and such after one wipe and we actually look at things as a challenge to get past instead of a new piece of gear.
I have to say I agree, I kind of prefer playing with the mediocre crowd we don't leave raids and such after one wipe and we actually look at things as a challenge to get past instead of a new piece of gear.
lol, I hear you.
I've never been in a group of laid back casual "not trying to be the best they can be DAMN THE TORPEDOS" people who ever left a raid/group or thought that the only reason to do a raid/instance/ whatever was to get gear.
If we failed we tried again. If someone made a mistake then it was funny and we laughed and if it made us fail we tried again.
I'll take these people anytime.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I guess I just saved you wasting your money on the trash that is Black Ops then. And who am I to say what is a game and entertainment? I could ask the same of you. We're both consumers, we both pay for games, we both pay for entertainment, if I'm not finding it in my purchases then it's obviously not aimed at my tastes. I'm sure I'm not the only human on planet earth who dislikes these modern releases.
I think the problem came around with the release of consoles. Games were a lot deeper on the PC until consoles turned up, then they had to make it all flashy and movie-like (as its played on a TV - and that's what you see on TV's), simple to play because of the awful controller and easy because of all the younger generation who would be getting one for Christmas.
So developers stopped making deep games for PC only and instead concentrated on making something that would work on a console while being easily portable to the PC. There are still some great PC developers, but most software houses seem to be focusing on simplicity and 'movies' to fit easy mode consoles.
There is no problem. The issue is you don't like it. Well, don't play it.
I, and many other, enjoy these games and will continue to support them with our hard earned CASH. Let's vote with our wallet.
It's the instant gratification growd that made the MMO market as it is today and it started with WoW.
And that crowd is unfortunately a lot bigger than the old school one.
It is not unfortunate at all. There is nothing wrong with instant gratification. And who calls grinding a week to get a piece of epic gear (yes, many of WOW's epic gear take at least that, or more time to get) "instant" needs a elementary school English lesson on the word "instant".
When I read a book, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When I watch a movie, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When i play a SP video game, i don't want to wait months to finish it. Why would i want to play a MMO with no rewards for months?
Thank GOD modern MMO is not like a job that you need to work a year before you can get a bonus.
It's the instant gratification growd that made the MMO market as it is today and it started with WoW.
And that crowd is unfortunately a lot bigger than the old school one.
It is not unfortunate at all. There is nothing wrong with instant gratification. And who calls grinding a week to get a piece of epic gear (yes, many of WOW's epic gear take at least that, or more time to get) "instant" needs a elementary school English lesson on the word "instant".
When I read a book, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When I watch a movie, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When i play a SP video game, i don't want to wait months to finish it. Why would i want to play a MMO with no rewards for months?
Thank GOD modern MMO is not like a job that you need to work a year before you can get a bonus.
I've noticed the same thing. Everytime a WoW hater posts about the game it seems to get easier and easier. I used to read how it only took a month to get to endgame, then it was 2 weeks, and lately the party line is you can get to max lvl in 3 days. They use the term "welfare epics" and "instant gratification" when I don't think the words mean what they think they mean. The only difference I see in WoW and games of the past is you're guarenteed a gear drop of somekind when you down a boss where as in the past you'd have to camp a mob that spawns twice a week and kill it 100 times to maybe get what you want. Raids nowadays actually take strategy and working together as opposed to games of the past where you just hack and slashed the boss till it was dead.
It's the instant gratification growd that made the MMO market as it is today and it started with WoW.
And that crowd is unfortunately a lot bigger than the old school one.
It is not unfortunate at all. There is nothing wrong with instant gratification. And who calls grinding a week to get a piece of epic gear (yes, many of WOW's epic gear take at least that, or more time to get) "instant" needs a elementary school English lesson on the word "instant".
When I read a book, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When I watch a movie, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When i play a SP video game, i don't want to wait months to finish it. Why would i want to play a MMO with no rewards for months?
Thank GOD modern MMO is not like a job that you need to work a year before you can get a bonus.
I've noticed the same thing. Everytime a WoW hater posts about the game it seems to get easier and easier. I used to read how it only took a month to get to endgame, then it was 2 weeks, and lately the party line is you can get to max lvl in 3 days. They use the term "welfare epics" and "instant gratification" when I don't think the words mean what they think they mean. The only difference I see in WoW and games of the past is you're guarenteed a gear drop of somekind when you down a boss where as in the past you'd have to camp a mob that spawns twice a week and kill it 100 times to maybe get what you want. Raids nowadays actually take strategy and working together as opposed to games of the past where you just hack and slashed the boss till it was dead.
Ah, but the difference was, when/if the boss did drop an epic, it was truely epic, instead of just epic item number #23452 that you and about a quarter million other players have. There are no more epics in MMORPG's,because everyone can earn them.
And I don't know about that skill part in MMORPGs, I played DAOC and never managed to kill a Dragon, (people did, but it was a pretty rare and major achievement). Not many things in MMORPG's today compare in difficulty.
And while WOW raids did take a bit of skill back in the 40 man days, in recent years they pretty much became AOE smashfests, and there was a huge uproar in Catacombs when Blizzard attempted to nudge it back a bit to the days of yore.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When I read a book, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When I watch a movie, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When i play a SP video game, i don't want to wait months to finish it. Why would i want to play a MMO with no rewards for months?
Thank GOD modern MMO is not like a job that you need to work a year before you can get a bonus.
Your time must be very precious, every second of every day crammed full of exciting experiences that you simply can't bear to spend a second of it actually waiting. 100% activity all day long, not a second wasted. Phew, you must be tired when you get into bed.
Why do you need rewards in an MMO? Is it like a gambling machine? Put money in, whirl whirl whirl go the wheels, ting, cherry cherry cherry, whee, flashing lights, happy noises, have some coins, ting ting ting. I bet you stare at that screen all wide-eyed and bushy-tailed, huh? Waiting.. oh no, not waiting, we don't do waiting.. rushing toward that next explosion of light and colour that signals another reward. Good puppy. Now fetch!
Seriously. I worry about the new generation of gamers.
It's the instant gratification growd that made the MMO market as it is today and it started with WoW.
And that crowd is unfortunately a lot bigger than the old school one.
True and the same crowd are those ones who jump on every new MMO that comes along praise it to heavens and stop playing after the first free month to try the next big hit.
And the devs knows it now, they are earning money on the new buzz, the box sales, not a good MMO that last for years.
I've noticed the same thing. Everytime a WoW hater posts about the game it seems to get easier and easier. I used to read how it only took a month to get to endgame, then it was 2 weeks, and lately the party line is you can get to max lvl in 3 days. They use the term "welfare epics" and "instant gratification" when I don't think the words mean what they think they mean. The only difference I see in WoW and games of the past is you're guarenteed a gear drop of somekind when you down a boss where as in the past you'd have to camp a mob that spawns twice a week and kill it 100 times to maybe get what you want. Raids nowadays actually take strategy and working together as opposed to games of the past where you just hack and slashed the boss till it was dead.
Ah, but the difference was, when/if the boss did drop an epic, it was truely epic, instead of just epic item number #23452 that you and about a quarter million other players have. There are no more epics in MMORPG's,because everyone can earn them.
And I don't know about that skill part in MMORPGs, I played DAOC and never managed to kill a Dragon, (people did, but it was a pretty rare and major achievement). Not many things in MMORPG's today compare in difficulty.
And while WOW raids did take a bit of skill back in the 40 man days, in recent years they pretty much became AOE smashfests, and there was a huge uproar in Catacombs when Blizzard attempted to nudge it back a bit to the days of yore.
Not a bad thing. Given that i have a life, i will never be the 2% raiders who ever beat Sunwell. Better to have some chance of at least trying the content.
I don't want a game to be full of stuff that i will never do. May as well not to exist for me. As WOW is now, i prob will never do hard mode raids anyway. That is quite enough.
When I read a book, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When I watch a movie, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When i play a SP video game, i don't want to wait months to finish it. Why would i want to play a MMO with no rewards for months?
Thank GOD modern MMO is not like a job that you need to work a year before you can get a bonus.
Your time must be very precious, every second of every day crammed full of exciting experiences that you simply can't bear to spend a second of it actually waiting. 100% activity all day long, not a second wasted. Phew, you must be tired when you get into bed.
Why do you need rewards in an MMO? Is it like a gambling machine? Put money in, whirl whirl whirl go the wheels, ting, cherry cherry cherry, whee, flashing lights, happy noises, have some coins, ting ting ting. I bet you stare at that screen all wide-eyed and bushy-tailed, huh? Waiting.. oh no, not waiting, we don't do waiting.. rushing toward that next explosion of light and colour that signals another reward. Good puppy. Now fetch!
Seriously. I worry about the new generation of gamers.
First, i am an old schooler. My first RPG is Ultima 3 .. way before even the internet. And i like today's gaming world BETTER.
Second, you BET my time is precious. And don't tell me i don't wait in WOW. The dps queue in heroics in very very long. Even at lower levels, you have to wait 5 min for a dungeon.
I have to split my very limited entertainment time (after work + family) between MMO, single player games, movies, books and comics. I don't want a MMO with excessive grind/wait. Thank GOD that developers understand that MMOs are just hobbies, and should not take a life to enjoy.
It's the instant gratification growd that made the MMO market as it is today and it started with WoW.
And that crowd is unfortunately a lot bigger than the old school one.
True and the same crowd are those ones who jump on every new MMO that comes along praise it to heavens and stop playing after the first free month to try the next big hit.
And the devs knows it now, they are earning money on the new buzz, the box sales, not a good MMO that last for years.
Nothing wrong with that. I praise Dead Space too, and you dont see me devote my life to it.
"Shorter" MMOs are a good thing. You have time to try more.
Comments
I'm not a fan of PvP in MMO's, I actively avoid it in most games, but even I had an awesome time in AO's Tarasque battle. Like battling through a ton of other players isn't hard enough, but then you have an epic battle against a dragon to top it off. Fun times!
Sorry, but I just had to butt in. You call yourself a Sandbox MMO gamer but go into lengths on playing and lauding WoW, the very epitome of Themepark MMORPG's.
You go into explaining how you like being led around by the game, being told where to go and what to exactly do, and when to do it. You want the pre-planned, laid out structure of the game of what to exactly do. It's the complete opposite of what a Sandbox game is about.
You're not a Sandbox player. You're Themepark through and through. No sense in trying to hide under a different guise.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
First, thank you for spoiling the game for me ... i specificly said i haven't played it YET.
Secondly, who are YOU to say what is a game and what is entertainment. That kind of play, including on rails shooting is used quite a bit in all the modern FPS. I think it is fun ... good way to go through a good story with *some* interaction. Millions obviously agree. Just look at the reviews + sales. Plus, a game like COD has many different segment, some more interactive than others.
It is obvious to me that not everyone craves the same degrees of interactive-ness in a game. It is really a matter of degree.
What i would like to see is well-designed full, entertaining experiences. And i am open mind to what that entails. If it is 70% CGI movie, and 30% shooting ... and it was fun, so be it.
Have you played Metal Gear series? 90% of the game is CGI movie and everyone loves it.
First, 90% it is not, second, MG doesnt use CGI cutscenes.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I take issues with that statement. The notion that there is something "good" for ALL gamer is flawed (in fact, go read Ken Arrow's impossibility theorem to show that you really can't have something that is good for everyone, if everyone has difference preferences).
Even assume developers don't care about making money. Is spending a lot of resources making a game that only 1 person plays a good thing for "ALL gamers"? Obviously everyone but this person will disagree. Everyone will only care about games THEY want to play.
And when you say whether it is good or bad for an industry .. what do you actually mean? If the industry grows, have more customers, isn't that a GOOD thing?
You whole point about good or bad bois down "you likes it or you don't". No more and no less.
Torik and a few others have been trying to prop up the EQ/WoW clones for some time.
But guys, it's not that a few people are rousing the rabble. It's that the rabble has genuinely become tired and unhappy with the current fare.
Once upon a time....
I guess I just saved you wasting your money on the trash that is Black Ops then. And who am I to say what is a game and entertainment? I could ask the same of you. We're both consumers, we both pay for games, we both pay for entertainment, if I'm not finding it in my purchases then it's obviously not aimed at my tastes. I'm sure I'm not the only human on planet earth who dislikes these modern releases.
I think the problem came around with the release of consoles. Games were a lot deeper on the PC until consoles turned up, then they had to make it all flashy and movie-like (as its played on a TV - and that's what you see on TV's), simple to play because of the awful controller and easy because of all the younger generation who would be getting one for Christmas.
So developers stopped making deep games for PC only and instead concentrated on making something that would work on a console while being easily portable to the PC. There are still some great PC developers, but most software houses seem to be focusing on simplicity and 'movies' to fit easy mode consoles.
For me this would be a hard thing to vote on. Due to I really think there might be a gamemaker out there who has the potential to bring back what everyone is looking for. I started with WoW and atually went backward not forward. If there had been an option to vote on for lack of content, lack of innovation, lack of imagination for new ideas, I would have voted. I do think there was a lot more fresh ideas back when those came out. It is kind of like people have gotten into a stalemate for new ideas instead of coming up with something new and fresh it is like playing the same games oever and over, using a lot of things that came out of older games.
I look forward to when someone comes up with their own new thing that no one has done before. I hope that is not lost. I hope that people still have enough in them and are not blocked too much to do that. That is what is seems like is that it is like writer's block but everyone instead of waiting out the writer's block is in such a hurry to outdo the last guy that they don't wait for the light bulb idea that is actually going to outdo them. Or maybe it is time to hire new writers with fresh ideas I have never seen an industry that does not have to do that every once in a while to freshen things up a bit.
Well i don't think we can truly blame WoW. After all all it did was what every game wishes to do: sell, a lot. The problem though is that it's huge success has created a market benchmark. Why would a dev aspire to be like , lets say, eve which maybe has 1% of the amount of players of WoW? On the other hand one can hope that the WoW-like (wow-clone seems a bit too strong) market will get saturated and devs realize that.
I personally believe the future lies in sandboxes, but the problem is that those are much harder to correctly make. I mean, regardless of how much i love eve it has a lot of problems on many aspects. WoW however is pretty much doing fine (not that i like everything about it but it doesn't have "objective" problems). So it will take some time before sandboxes find a good working formula but when it gets there i'm fairly certain we will be in for a treat! let's just hope sanbox devs don't abandon the ship to join the themepark train.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
It's the instant gratification growd that made the MMO market as it is today and it started with WoW.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
And that crowd is unfortunately a lot bigger than the old school one.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
lol.. another kid that needs to grow up..^^.
You assume that if something is mediocre, it's bad... .. it just means, "just enough to suite the masses". There is nothing special about WoW, except it's "unspecialness". WoW is the McDonalds of the MMORPG industry.. somehow, if u don't understand that, then you havn't been around long.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Unfortunately WoW brought in a small army of the little buggers.
I have to say I agree, I kind of prefer playing with the mediocre crowd we don't leave raids and such after one wipe and we actually look at things as a challenge to get past instead of a new piece of gear.
lol, I hear you.
I've never been in a group of laid back casual "not trying to be the best they can be DAMN THE TORPEDOS" people who ever left a raid/group or thought that the only reason to do a raid/instance/ whatever was to get gear.
If we failed we tried again. If someone made a mistake then it was funny and we laughed and if it made us fail we tried again.
I'll take these people anytime.
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There is no problem. The issue is you don't like it. Well, don't play it.
I, and many other, enjoy these games and will continue to support them with our hard earned CASH. Let's vote with our wallet.
It is not unfortunate at all. There is nothing wrong with instant gratification. And who calls grinding a week to get a piece of epic gear (yes, many of WOW's epic gear take at least that, or more time to get) "instant" needs a elementary school English lesson on the word "instant".
When I read a book, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When I watch a movie, i don't want to wait months to know the ending. When i play a SP video game, i don't want to wait months to finish it. Why would i want to play a MMO with no rewards for months?
Thank GOD modern MMO is not like a job that you need to work a year before you can get a bonus.
I've noticed the same thing. Everytime a WoW hater posts about the game it seems to get easier and easier. I used to read how it only took a month to get to endgame, then it was 2 weeks, and lately the party line is you can get to max lvl in 3 days. They use the term "welfare epics" and "instant gratification" when I don't think the words mean what they think they mean. The only difference I see in WoW and games of the past is you're guarenteed a gear drop of somekind when you down a boss where as in the past you'd have to camp a mob that spawns twice a week and kill it 100 times to maybe get what you want. Raids nowadays actually take strategy and working together as opposed to games of the past where you just hack and slashed the boss till it was dead.
Ah, but the difference was, when/if the boss did drop an epic, it was truely epic, instead of just epic item number #23452 that you and about a quarter million other players have. There are no more epics in MMORPG's,because everyone can earn them.
And I don't know about that skill part in MMORPGs, I played DAOC and never managed to kill a Dragon, (people did, but it was a pretty rare and major achievement). Not many things in MMORPG's today compare in difficulty.
And while WOW raids did take a bit of skill back in the 40 man days, in recent years they pretty much became AOE smashfests, and there was a huge uproar in Catacombs when Blizzard attempted to nudge it back a bit to the days of yore.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your time must be very precious, every second of every day crammed full of exciting experiences that you simply can't bear to spend a second of it actually waiting. 100% activity all day long, not a second wasted. Phew, you must be tired when you get into bed.
Why do you need rewards in an MMO? Is it like a gambling machine? Put money in, whirl whirl whirl go the wheels, ting, cherry cherry cherry, whee, flashing lights, happy noises, have some coins, ting ting ting. I bet you stare at that screen all wide-eyed and bushy-tailed, huh? Waiting.. oh no, not waiting, we don't do waiting.. rushing toward that next explosion of light and colour that signals another reward. Good puppy. Now fetch!
Seriously. I worry about the new generation of gamers.
WoW is most definitely not the worst mmo ever.
Yes casual players have taken over and ruined any rewarding feeling online games used to have because companies want their money, cant blame em.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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True and the same crowd are those ones who jump on every new MMO that comes along praise it to heavens and stop playing after the first free month to try the next big hit.
And the devs knows it now, they are earning money on the new buzz, the box sales, not a good MMO that last for years.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Not a bad thing. Given that i have a life, i will never be the 2% raiders who ever beat Sunwell. Better to have some chance of at least trying the content.
I don't want a game to be full of stuff that i will never do. May as well not to exist for me. As WOW is now, i prob will never do hard mode raids anyway. That is quite enough.
First, i am an old schooler. My first RPG is Ultima 3 .. way before even the internet. And i like today's gaming world BETTER.
Second, you BET my time is precious. And don't tell me i don't wait in WOW. The dps queue in heroics in very very long. Even at lower levels, you have to wait 5 min for a dungeon.
I have to split my very limited entertainment time (after work + family) between MMO, single player games, movies, books and comics. I don't want a MMO with excessive grind/wait. Thank GOD that developers understand that MMOs are just hobbies, and should not take a life to enjoy.
Nothing wrong with that. I praise Dead Space too, and you dont see me devote my life to it.
"Shorter" MMOs are a good thing. You have time to try more.