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MMORPG PvP VS FPS PvP
Dark_HUmar
Member UncommonPosts: 200
I am a huge PvP fan myself but lately I am less and less interested in PvP in MMORPG´s mainly because of the balancing problems so I was wondering what kind of PvP do you prefer ? and why ?
Comments
You really have to define what type of PVP you are talking about. While I enjoy FPS's, I abhor battleground PVP in MMOs, preferring the open world guild-based PVP encounters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I enjoy MMORPG PvP, but like you over the past couple of months its just started to annoy me how unbalanced, uninspired, unskilfull, and just repetitive the PvP is.
FPS PvP is almost solely skill based, even if thier are classes like in TF2 a good player can kill any class with any class.
MMORPG PvP is still fun, but balance is just impossible.
I'm looking foward to BRINK.
As an ardent pvper I enjoy both.
For balanced, skill driven, team pvp I'll play a game specifically designed for that - fps/action strat, etc.
In mmos I prefer open world pvp and the scope it offers, something you can't get in team based arenas.
Whilst I will take part in battlegrounds/arenas in mmos it's not my main focus, primarily because I can't see the point in doing what is essentially a crappier version of something I can get in another game, often against badly matched pug group opponents.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I like first person shooter games better on the long run vs MMORPG PvP.
MMORPGs are systematic games. Your performance is based on the usage of autolocking and autotargetting skills. All you need is a target and the system takes over. Everything from the damage taken to damage inflicted upon an enemy is Systematic as well. In other words all damage is "comparative." This means a player at the highest level + Equipment always will have an advantage over any other player and those who have "LESS" are punished. The environment is then about trying to hoarde as much as possible to "diminish" the advantage other players have.
FPS games allow a player to define who they are by their own skills and abilities. Each player comes in with equal health, and an equal chance to gather pickups on the map. The difference is that players who know the map have an advantage in knowing where pickups and points are. The same is true in war when usually the defenders have the terrain advantage. Even class-based shooters represent something as a player can have full health and be sniped on a distance to the head to die.
Both games also have thier usual gang of idiots. In other words, players who do not know how to play the game who cause their own teams the win by doing stupid things and then posting in forums and starting movements about how "casual players" should be catered to while the Elite players stand on the opposite side with mixed opinios. FPS elite players brag about their status because they actually "Earned it" by playing for long periods of time and actually winning high ranking matches in ladders. MMORPG elites show off their greatest equipment and tell the world they are great because they managed to win with an advantage. After a certain point a top player has 0 advantage against another in a FPS game and it truly becomes a game about real skill, strategy and talent...While MMORPGs follow the vicious cycle of having new items released to force players to play new content and modify their equipment to retain their place.
In short, FPS games means retaining your place means actually defeating good opponents and defending the Championship title. MMORPGs are about having the best equipment possible with autolocking skills and winning by taking advantage of team or map exploits.
I know it sounds like a biased way to put it, but when I have a top equipment character with the same mods and time spent towards spamming the same skill set for a long time as another player, you can tell that even a trained monkey with spamming skills under the same equipment has an equal chance at taking down my character.
The way you know how to kill someone of your same class with top equipment in an MMORPG is always compare your own MAX EQUIPMENT stats to how much you can possibly withstand against yourself. Comparing your attack and defense values and finding the point at which you can sustain hits against poorer equipped players. In short, you figure out how many hits you can take against yourself...which is more often the case in PvP,
Too many years of playing both has lead me to believe in the central proof of the matter.
FPS = You can start playing immediately and have at least a chance and you can get better. No subcription fees and no heavy grinding by comparison.
MMORPG = You have to raise a character to max level to be "Entry Level" and then have to spend twice to three times the time to fully equip a character, also while paying a subscription fee. You then have to cross your fingers hoping that the game isn't patched to weaken your class and weapons because the majority of the players complain about how powerful you are...Then you have to deal with either an authoritarian system while the 80 - 90% of the casual gamers in the server try to turn the game into some sort of Neo-Communist/Socialist network on their rise to capitalist/dominant character equipment.
Why play a game that reminds me of the real world when I play games to take my mind away from the real world? PvP can be ok, but if you really care so much about PvP and want a decent fight without all the blasted spamming and you don't want to deal with FPS games either..Go play some fighting games, Street Fighter series and Mortal Kombat are favorites.
RTS PvP
I really like mmorpg pvp. Much more than PvE and I don't FPS-pvp because I don't enjoy 1st person perspective games as much as 3rd person. So the reason I like pvp in mmorpgs, is that ideally this world is out there and you can walk along in this dangerous land and know you could bump into a hostile race or something. If it's a marching army dodge it and scamper for cover and if it's a lone solder run ahead and set an ambush by laying up in a tree or something and leaping out at that player!
It's fun as hell. However this post summarizes the problems of pvp in mmos and often why it is less than ideal.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
The thing is that there are people who will never be good at fps games. You assume that people in fps games will "get better" but the reality is that some people are wired to be great fps players and some just can't do twitch based game play.
Therefore I don't agree with your premise.
It seems to that mmorpg combat levels the playing field a bit. I understand why some hate it but fact of the matter is that the current system allows those who are not inclined to be fps playes to at least have a chance to compete.
Good players are going to be good players and the cream will always rise to the top. But at least some players will be able to come to the table and partake.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What you describe is what I find most frustrating about that system of 'leveling the playing field' it is usually done through power gained from time invested and not necessarily even success of any kind during that time. In most MMOs, a player could actually maintain a pattern of being just one hair above abject failure but as long as he repeats that same pattern over and over he will eventually obtain the necessary IWIN buttons (stats and gear) to actually defeat a player an actual mastery of how to play the game.
MMOs are the only games where a player can fail repeatedly but as long as he fails often enough he can reach his goals. What's scary is that i think I just also accurately described our education system here in America.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMORPG PvP: No Gamer Left Behind
If an individual doesn't have what it takes to "be" good at a particular game then there you have it. It's the player's issue and noone else's.
I would question whether a player that needs gear or character levels to "level the playing field" would be good in any game without being "carried" by either his teammates or his gear. Which happens in both FPS and MMORPG lands. Yes, players that suck will be carried by players that don't.
If you get your backside handed to you because you keep running into the close fight and don't have the reactions to survive then maybe it's time to consider a change in tactics and role? Support and long ranged play just as much an important role in team based fights as the assaulter. In MMO don't we tell people to switch to a role and class more suited to their abilities?
In FPS land you can always say you have the opportunity to improve. What you do with that opportunity is on you.
In MMOs, without the gear or if the levels are too disparate.....well good luck on that.
And MMORPG combat mechanics rewards the guy with the better gear (grind, grind, grind....not exactly a skill, and while patience and persistance are traits and virtues to be admired, they aren't skills either) and level more so than skill.
Not that there aren't skills involved in MMORPG combat but the difference between the two worlds is a stark one.
In games with macros enabled......well you gotta wonder why have the player there at all? Auto lock, move to target, activate the flashy buttons.....
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
For me..
1. TPS.
2. FPS.
3. MMORPG.
Most mmorpg pvp is horrific, with the exception of DAoC, i'd say there isn't a single mmorpg pvp which is even worthwhile mentioning when compared to the top FPS's.
The other thing is modern mmo's try and blend the two styles and usually produce a horrible hybrd bastard child with all the weakensses of both, none of the strengths (DF being a prime example).
As has already been mentioned, for mmorpg pvp to exceed that of FPS's they need to utilise the open world focus, something that limits FPS's, but no mmorpg's do this well or at all. Completely agree with those who say mmorpg instanced pvp is terrible in general by comparison to FPS.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
I like FPS systems and TPS systems, and many different systems in between. I really enjoyed DCUOs PvP system, quite possibly the most fun I've had in an MMO's PvP ever. I do also like GA. I also like Mount n Blades systems too -- and a slew of other games that utilize similar systems in single player/multiplayer games.
I don't like the standard MMO combat for PvP, I rather some skill be involved rather than time spent grinding for gear being the deciding factor.
Well, if the idea is to get as many people as possible interested in these games then I suppose that is what they have done.
Part of the issue for mmo's is that they are aimed toward so many demographics it's hard to really satisfy any one group.
Some people think of these as "games" where a person has to/needs to rely upon their skill and wits to accomplish anything. Others think of them as more storied/social experiences where the follow there character's development through the world and follow a natural progression but more of a story progression.
your last sentence doesn't really make sense. If they fail often enough they won't reach their goals. If they want the best gear then they still have to succeed at whatever raid or activity allows them to get good gear. Or if the game is more player driven then they have to amass enough wealth to obtain this gear. So a bit more like real life.
if they fail at killing a mob (which generally is hard to do) then you dont' get xp. If you succeed in killing the mob you get xp.
What these games have done is make it so that it's hard to fail. But again, that goes back to getting as many disparate types of players into these games. i can assue you that not everyone finds them easy peazy lemon squeezy. But a majority will.
where I do see a real issue is that if one player is just a better player and he goes up against one who has significantly better gear and levels then there really is no way for the better player to compete. I will admit that's a shame as the mechanic that levels the playing field in some ways just creates another disparity. Of course, the playing field is still level within the confines of the game's rules in that the better player can choose to spend the time get the better gear and once the gear is the same he will come out the victor.
I think in some ways that's why I liked Guild Wars' system. there is a progression and there is better gear. But the differences between groups of people is so small that eventually everyone can have the best gear but only the best players will win the day.
To be honest, I don't like the idea of better gear being a deciding factor at all. i would much prefer to have all progression to be solely based on the character itself. So this way a lvl 10 character with great gear and a lvl 10 character with atrocious gear could still go up against each other but if the one with atrocious gear was an amazing player they could still possibly pull out a win.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
i prefer mmorpg pvp... but right now i rather play FPS pvp because mmorpg developers now are screweing mmos mapping the attacks to the mouse (DCUO, vindictus, DDO, Tera, some others) mixing 2 genres mmorpg and action mmo..... that sux and if i wanted to attack with mouse clicks i would play FPS better.... tahts why GW2 will be great, no need of tab target and absolutely NO attack with mouse
thats my opinion
MMORPG PvP and TPS PvP and FPS PvP takes use of different Skills, none of them can be played without skills.
Thing is that most TPS/FPS Players definition of skills is very tight focussed toward Hand EyE coordination leaving any use of others skill seen as inferior.
Yawn, get aware you simply play the wrong games that fit not into the playstyle you prefer and move on to FPS-games instead of contamine mmoRPGs with your shit!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
As I mentioned in my other post, it depends on how the developers/players look at these "games". If one is playing them to be competitive then this statement makes sense. if the developers and players are looking toward more of a shared progressive experience where anyone can eat at the table then it doesn't fit.
Of course in some ways there should be multiples ways to compete but I imagine this is hard to do.
So, let's say one player does have the best personal skills. If another player has better crafting skills or better business acument they should be able to create/purchase gear that can give them a leg up.
The issue here is that most of these games make it so that anyone can be a crafter, anyone can amass great wealth and if they can't they can side step the game's economic challenges by purchasing gold through secondary parties.
I was going to make a statement about removing progression of any type and just having these games be like fps games. However, that will speak to one demographic and will leave out players that enjoy slowly building their character's abilities.
Let's face it, there are just too many people with too many different expectations so that developers can't appease them all.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I had to vote other.
I hate the current trend of MMORPG PvP (AKA instanced battleground with FPS objectives like CTF or point holding and deathmatches, FPSs do those better) but I loved the MMORPG PvP in DAoC and to some extent in WAR much more than I enjoyed playing any FPS.
I had clarified right above the sentence you were quoting that I was referring to one hair above abject failure. Yes, if you never kill a mob, you probably won't ever level outside of soaking/leeching in groups, but we are talking about PVP. Are you saying that most MMOs are not designed to reward people for repeated mediocrity in PVP? Are you saying that in a PVP raid or battleground in most MMOs a person is not rewarded for simply showing up?
In AoC, I recently got new PVP gear. There's no reason that I should haveit. Ever since returning (played from release for almost a year) I can't PVP worth a damn. In a couple weeks I managed to turn my win/loss stats from 150 -9 into 157 - 300+. Formy efforts, I deserve a chunk of rotten limburger and a middle finger. Instead I have enough points to get better PVP gear. And if I keep PVPing this atrociously, I will continue to get rewarded until eventually I will have enough gear and enough stats to actually result in wins despite my complete inability to play my character with any level of competence in PVP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
True. There's gonna be games that cater to every appetite I suppose. And while the bullk of the playing audience will probably continue to opt for what you have now, that's not necessarily a bad thing I guess. Bigger audience of gamers means some portion of that money/players will take a liking to more "niche" games with other varieties of combat mechanics involved.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
I'll be honest, I'm on the fence.
There is a part of me that wants to put in a lot of time and sculpt my character to be better than others. then there is a part of me who wants to be able to be minding my own business and when attacked by others I can use my superior skills (lol, well assuming that I HAVE superior skills) to overcome my opponents regardless of how much more time they have spent gearing up.
again, it goes back to the idea that I don't believe gear should be end all be all and that amazing gear should only be marginally better than good gear which is marginally better than bad gear.
Heck, even if the level dispartiy between top lvl and lvl 1 is 100 levels I think the benefits of good gear should be exactly the same for either player.
I'm really more interested in the character developement than gear developement. Still, one would then argue that gear has become intrinsically entwined with character development.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well said both of you, I never really understood why I never truely enjoyed battlegrounds and Arena but I clearly do now. Between both of your posts this pretty much reflects my attitude, believe it or not I really play MMORPGS to PvE and would be completely happy with a MMO without any form of instanced pvp. Just completely optional, if someone flags then you have a chance to participate in some fun pvp, no its not balanced because the GM's aren't concerned, its a meaningless past time that some may partake in, while most remain safe. I'd rather not have classes tweaked and changed because of such a small addition to a PVE game. Afterall like you said, there are other games to get that fix, stop expecting ONE game to get you EVERYTHING. I love pvp, I play zombie panic source, its biast towards the zombies in many senses but when you die you also generally get to play them, its a free a game if you have any version of half life installed as it is a just a MOD.
They are coming out with a stand alone game called contangion and the MOD alone blows left for dead out of the water.
Other-
Honestly I prefer getting together with the boys and going out on the town hunting down people who wear socks with their sandles. They usually have a high constitution, but lack the ability to run away properly.
I'm not interested in MMO PvP.
1. Grinding out character levels and gear before being able to compete.
2. Timing of fights. When I'm ready for PvP there may be nobody around and when I'm ready for something else, other players may decide that I'm going to PvP.
3. Trying to find a good fight. I don't enjoy stomping opponents and I don't enjoy being stomped. They're boring scenarios.
4. Losing stuff when my team loses a fight. This is a problem when my personal stuff is lost. If an MMO was structured such that community property was lost, this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue.
The short form is that FPS PvP lets me get to the PvP action when I want it and it lets me keep at it until I've had enough. MMO PvP is unreliable and inconsistent; it is low quality entertainment.
I enjoy Dota style PvP and RTS so I voted "other", no idea why mmorpg developers dont ever try a similar formula, with the twitch style mixed with collaborative efforts and a lot of variables to make every combat different.