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General: Death Penalties: My Love-Hate Relationship
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
MMO death penalties are always good fodder for a battle royale between those who think they're necessary and those who hate them passionately. In today's Player Perspectives, Isabelle Parsley explores the dichotomy between her love and simultaneous hatred of death penalties. Check it out and then let us know what you think!
For one thing, MMOs were slower in those days. We had only the faintest clue what we were doing, we didn’t have access to dedicated websites for every single aspect of the game, and the built-in pace of the game tended to be rather slower than it is these days. In that context, death penalties as they were then could really bite, and there’s nothing like losing a level or a prized item to make you appreciate the effort you put in to getting them in the first place.
Read more of Isabelle Parsley's Player Perspectives: Death Penalties: My Love-Hate Relationship.
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Comments
back in those days there were also a lot less MMOs to choose from so there wasn't much choice iven if you detested such mechanincs as death penalties. now days there are so many similar mmos that if you dont like 1 or 2 rules you will most certanly be able to find a game almost exactly the same with the rules you want.
back then there was no theme park experience, so there was really nothing to compare those harsh mechanics against. it was pretty much excepted as the norm.
there also weren't entire webistes dedicated to cheat and exploit every possible glitch you can think of with just a simple free download.
the gold farming business was also in it's infancy and wasn't really an option for 99% of players.
it was a simpler time and, as always, it's easier to enjoy simplicity.
Something on this topic (or similar to it) is currently doing the rounds.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/312255/page/1
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
... are we going to do the exact same dancing around as in the previous topic? Because I don't think I've ever seen anybody change their mind. Can we just skip the arguing and just sort of all agree 'My opinion is right, and yours is wrong, unless of course it agrees with mine.'
Save us a lot of time and typing.
Hmm how about a system where you can do a corpse run to recover your gear and clear a long lasting debuff or pay a merc NPC to recover it for you and the cost scales depending on the quality of gear you were wearing and where you died. The third choice being deal with the debuff and replace all your gear.
My theme song.
@meowhead - Hah. I like this kind of topic because I think in general we're not as polarized as we'd like to think. As for those who refuse to hear another opinion, let alone consider it - let em. Same as in real life. Some people you can have a fun discussion with, others you can't.
Part of the reason I started blogging, and part of the reason I'm doing this column, is that I think debate is healthy for any community, and MMO debates have effected quite a few changes in games over the years (if not always for the better).
@bunnyhopper - thanks for the link! And yes, these discussions surface every few months. The Death Penalty discussion just won't die!
I won't dance around. I'll come out and say that I feel "harsh" death penalties are a substitute for genuine content. Every player in every game dies. Big deal.
As far as I like death penalties to go is a mild non-stackable debuff with a loss in travel time returning to the fight. I play to have fun.
In general death penaltys have rarely if ever been an epxansion of gameplay and felt only as waste of time offering nothing that deepens the game play experience.
Some of the social interactions were memorable and that is all what was positive about it.
But today its a totally careless way of gaming that makes any encounter feel cheap done, losing is a slight annoyance and many a poeple careless lose their way up to max level.
Imho that is also bad!
So if someone has a solution that there is a risk vs reward but still being fun part in a death penalty mechanic i am for it
Maybe Death is a bet against Fate and the higher the bet is the more reward you get but in case of losing Fate will make you pay and you have a game of its own to fight back into the world of the living (solo or with the help of some friends that climb down into the dangerous underworld of the death to rescue their friend/guildmate).
This way you can experiment with dangerous encounters making no bets on winning them, having no penalty at all as long you want to try them out - but the time you feel ready your or your priest (having a bonus on praying) will bet with Fate for your souls in exchange for a possible big reward if winning.
Choice and consequence...
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Nice. People get their Risk vs Reward, it's immersive and the underworld it self provides game play that can be fun and not pain as xp loss. I like it.
My theme song.
You don't learn a game by being penalized for dying, you learn almost everything by PLAYING!
Social aspects of games are VERY important as well (probably #2 behind gameplay), but the social aspect isn't acheived any longer by just standing around chatting at a cloning spot - it's now done in Vent/TS, group, guild and global chat channels. Death penalties that cost time don't add to social exchanges.
you wanna save typing time? then stop typing....
for the rest of us that want to waste some time typing we'll continue expressing what we think and feel as many times as we feel like it.
Death penalties seem to be more a reason for people to turn on one another today, as opposed to yesteryear, where it often turned into an alternative group experience. Today, if you make an error and are responsible for a wipe, and if said wipe costs others anything in terms of cash, time or XP (which is pretty much the equivalent of time), be prepared for an ungodly bitchfest. And that's with relatively light penalties. Now implement the penalties that used to exist in today's games with today's gamers, and just watch the fireworks.
I remember reading a complaint from a player in DDO who would blacklist anyone who died in one of his groups because it cost him the 10% bonus XP you get if no one dies while completing a quest.
10%.
10.
I wonder what would have happened if he'd lost his prized glowy jab-jab stick instead.
My opinion on all of the issues related to making an MMO difficult(which includes death penalties is the same) I think they are good things.
There is a simple joy that comes from mastering something difficult. This joy is seperate from the game play experience yet connected to it.
I remember when I first played EQ back in 1999 or 2000...hard to remember exactly when i started playing now...and I picked the enchanter class because it sounded like fun to me. When I first started playing the class I completely sucked at it and I got stuck at lvl 17 or so for about four or five days(multiple deaths negating any xp gains). Instead of giving up and whining I talked to different people figured out what I was doing wrong and actually learned to play my class(wierd thought these days I know) and from that point forward I managed to level at a nice pace without any problems. The joy that I got by overcoming that obstacle was actually bigger than just playing the game itself.
In any case I am in favor of a exp loss - level loss - equipment on corpse type of death penalty for a variety of reasons. Games with this type of penalty can be balanced in other ways to make up for possible frustration stemming from this loss. EQ ended up managing that aspect pretty good for a while.
There's no sense of risk
No sense of fear
No emotion
Just "oh I died,eh whatever"
I already get penelized when I die...
My equipment gets worse and I have to spend valuable time fixing everything and then returning to the spot I died just to continue playing from where I left off. Sorry, but using death as a sort of punishment against the character as a measure to undo a lot of the work put into the game (serving as a cancellation) is insanity.
Old MMORPGs had horrible Death Penalties and when players in forumboards spoke about how FAIR the penalties were, I remember starting low level characters and baiting monsters to kill player characters for fun.....as did many.
A player would die, they would drop some of their equipment and it could be picked up.
The problem with Death Penalties is that they only apply to subscribers. No administrator or moderator in a game is going to deal with a death penalty when they can log in and simply hack their stats through the command line.
@tank017
No sense of risk? There is plenty of risk when players pay 14.99 a month to play some LOCALIZED version of some korean game that will not be as updated as the first and for all you know a few years later can become a F2P game...
No sense of fear?
Play a game from Japan and learn basics to Japanese Language where women in forumboard will literally post how they desire to burn foreigners and wish to start nationalism movements on how all foreigners should be banned simply because they are not Japanese.
Go accidentally make a mistake in a pure korean MMO and watch how Koreans start viewing you as dumb, idiotic and ignorant simply because you aren't from the east. There is so much fear already that most who i know pretent to be korean or japanese? Why? Because they want a FULL VERSION Of a game that hasnt been destroyed in localized versions.
No Emotion?
Correct me if I am wrong? Didn't the death penalty and item acquisition among several players in a certain MMO played by chinese lead to a group that impaled another in the streets, where the authority believed it had to do with Chinese Triads?
Also, do I want Emotion in Death or Life in the same regard? You die, you die....what...do you think someone is going to hold your hand and you are going to special place? Well, there is a special place...its called a SPAWNPOINT.
Its amazing how I play these games and look at many communities and the more communities I am involved with, the nicer the average MMORPG gamer is, but the dumbest of the three I see. RTS still remain to have smarter and more integrated communities. I see programmers in every major RTS forumboard and MOD collaboration but I see a lot of elitists too...While in Shooter communities there are always mass elitists but you find good modders and programmers.
No Harm Intended, but if a person has a love-life and works 30 - 60 hours a week and has children to take care off and a house to maintain...I don't see how these adults can have time to play these games that force players to run a marathon to get anything done.....
I like that once life picks up at least in shooters you can play a match with simple rules for 5 - 20 minutes and be done...and if you get satisfaction, get another or quit out of the game, while MMORPGs are 90% the same...Trying to kill something to get EXP because you are prevented from seeing content until you level up or meet some prerequisite...From the beginning of the MMO restrictions always exist slowing the experience to a crawl.
My advice...If you want to see an MMO and not deal with Death Penalties and teach companies a lesson. Go join private servers, start some yourself like I have and you will open your eyes when you find a character that starts at MAX LEVEL going through all the maps plays 5 - 10 hours covering the content of an MMO....
I should know I've done this for over 2 dozen MMOS and I can say "wow, what a waste of time"
death penalty should always be harsh, life should be valued. Or you will end up with dumb "hero" kamikadzeers
As I like to say .. back on those days people used to travel by foot, later horses, ... now with cars, airplanes, ... etc. You got the idea. And for sure cars are the best solution so far despite nostalgics. For sure once was different, but this does not make it better. I do not miss at all foot travel (but I do regulary jog :-)). Cars are much better solution. One have to accept this fact.
I agree there must be kind of death penalty for sure ... but make it to harsh ... I'm losing all fun. Playing is fun, not dying.
It appears that you, as we all, are possibly feeling a bit nostalgic, of our past and former glories. Bill Murphy recently wrote about the problem with going back to our old games. While you are not advocating this directly, but from what I gathered looking for a pinch more death penalty in future titles, urges me to shrug and suggest in Mr. Murphy's writings we see the sad and bittersweet truth. That these functions as our former glories, are out dated and found lacking. Mr. Murphy said it very well, if I may quote him in saying "So while my heart goes out to the titles that started it all, I think Ill keep my memories in a shoebox beneath my bed and not drag them out every time Im feeling nostalgic or homesick."
I agree with you in part of the death penalties, however I do not wish to see my memories come back to haunt me. As wonderful as they may be, they are memories for a reason, and for that I am ready to move forward with experience and a deeper appreciation for players and their willingness to lend a helping hand.
Thank you for the good read. I found myself laughing by the end of it, as so much of what you have said rang so true.
Without Death Penalties, Death is pointless. If there are no Death penalties at all the developers could come up with a new game concept, because why should players die when it does not have any effect?
In the last weeks I played Super Mario World (Virtual Console) and Super Mario Galaxy 2. And I started to wonder about dead and collecting lives in SMG2. You can still collect lives when you loose all of them you can continue and start with 5 lives again. There is not even a little penalty, no progress is lost. So why do this games still have lives? If you compare it to Super Mario World, you loose a certain amount of progress, you have to redo some levels and so there is a motivation not to die and to collect lives.
My first MMO being EQ, a healthy fear of death was instilled in me that newer MMO players just don't have. I am NOT advocating for harsh death penalties. I don't miss corpse runs at all. But with all the complaints that MMOs have become easy-mode, no player skill needed etc..., learning to fear and avoid death added a layer of intelligent strategic thought to the game. One couldn't just aggro everything in sight, but had to play with a modicum of forethought. I miss the fear of running from a train, and the care we took planning a pull. It just felt more immersive to me.
How 'bout this? Want a death penalty in your game? Then you will find that all the games have any degree of death penalty you wish. Most severe - when you are killed in game then delete the character and loot and reroll. That simple. Don't like that? Then simply delete the gear you carried and regear. This is very easy and in all games. Just as easy as telling people who don't like death penalties to go play something else.
Why don't you do this? Because it is not that you want the death penalty just for your own self. You want it imposed on everyone else, whether they like it or not! In other words you demand everyone else play like you want. If you want a death penalty in your play, then impose it. The others in the game can do the same. Frustrating? Not Fair? LOL you want a challenge, there is the greatest one! Impose discipline on yourself and overcome the CHALLENGE of unfair. PvP would yell the loudest I think.
BTW - Other players (such as myself) who don't want a severe death penalty to interupt our gameplay do not want to impose a non-death penalty on you. You have an option! But, please, leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the game in our own way. Spoil the game for us (majority I am afraid) and we actually will go play something else. Cannot see how that would help keep your game in existance. Ignore us, delete yourself and face that great challenge you want. Just a suggestion.
I've played a lot of RPGs since the NES where the only death penalty was running back from the last save point which was often in the room right before the boss I died on. That's actually less of a penalty than the light penaltys we have.
My theme song.
The thing I've noticed about the death penalty arguments....
Those that played with a death penalty in the older games want it back.
Those that never played with them...as in the "WoW and after crowd"...learned to play in Easy Mode and don't want anything that even resembles any type of death penalty.
Unfortunately, that second group is larger...so we will probably never see a worthwhile death penealty ever again.
Developers can also flip it on its head and instead of penalizing death, they can reward survival for long periods since its almost a given people will die at some point. But they can maybe grant a sliding scale of xp bonus (or something similar) based on time (hours and then eventually days) of playing without dying. They would just need to be sure to only count online time, and not count time spent in towns or safe havens.
Oh, and to be clarify my idea above, when you die, you are set back to 100% xp - the normal amount. So you lose a bonus instead of gaining a penalty. It may result in functionally the same thing. But psychologicaly, I think it makes a difference.