As I said a s-a-n-d-b-o-x g-a-m-e h-a-s t-h-e q-u-a-l-t-i-e-s o-f a-n o-p-e-n w-o-r-l-d, a-n-d n-o-n-l-i-n-e-a-r g-a-m-e-p-l-a-y.
Your keyboard appears to be broken, might want to get that seen to. It will make your posts more legible.
"The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively, boundless of artificial structural constraints, and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game." from the first link.
How does this apply to MO? There are plenty of artificial constraints, such as the inability to place a house where I wish, or attack Fabernum for example.
Therefore MO fails this test (assuming the test is valid of course).
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[19][20][21][22] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game."
This is meaningless, my friends son play WoW without regard to levels, monsters or instances. He wanders around talking to people and has a great time. Just about any game could be played this way if you so choose. I could play Tetris and make pretty pictures instead of "playing the game the right way". Does that make Tetris a sandbox?
Do you perhaps mean a game where there is no defined goal at all? Well WOW does not have a defined goal either, nor does any other MMO. So by this argument, all MMO's are absolutely sandbox in nature and there are no themepark MMO's.
I was not comparing games to one an other, but what I was doing was use it describe what a sandbox game is.
If we take your first definition, MO is not a sandbox, and by your second definition any MMO can be a sandbox. Neither option looks good for MO.
I was not hiding any thing into anything if you put in sandbox into the search bar in Wikipedia that is the address that it gave me. How you open the links, and then LOOK AT THE ADDRESS BAR in it, it the exact same address link that I posted.
The links you gave redirect to the Open World and Non Linear Gameplay pages. Why didn't you just link directly to those pages? Is it so that sandbox would appear in your post and links? That also shows that even WIki has no definition of sandbox that survives analysis.
This thread is full of people who seem to think that "sandbox" means the same as "sandbox as I like to think they should be".
I hope you do not mean me, as I have advanced no notion of what sandbox means. I created the thread so a discussion could take place over what it means and then commented on other peoples definitions - pointing out the inconsistencies and contradictions of calling MO a sandbox but not WOW etc.
Since the term has been so devalued, my opinion is it should not be used except in very specific circumstances (things such as Sim City perhaps).
MO's a sandbox... get over it and stop trying to play semantic games just as an excuse to throw insults at an actual game.
According to pro-MO supporters here it is not a sandbox, I do hope you will debate them on this matter with the enthusiasm with which you debate those who do not think MO is an actual game but instead a very poor (and barely functioning) UE mod.
According to pro-MO supporters here it is not a sandbox, I do hope you will debate them on this matter with the enthusiasm with which you debate those who do not think MO is an actual game but instead a very poor (and barely functioning) UE mod.
...yeah, I was way off base with my 'just an excuse to throw insults' line...
fact is, arguing the definition of 'sandbox' is stupid for exactly the same reason debating the definition of 'freedom', 'love'.. there will never be a definition that suits everyone's criteria. It's human language, and as such is subjective. If there's any use in applying labels like 'sandbox' to a game, it's to signify that people who like other games with that label will find qualities of the game in question that they like. That's what happened with me. I like sandbox MMO's, and someone described Mortal as a sandbox. I checked it out, and it indeed had a lot of features that I like in a game... in my case it's full loot, non-restricted locations and gear, and a design that encouraged player interaction (limitted NPC involvement in the economy, a forceful lack of instanced zones, etc.). This is not to say that everyone that likes any sandbox game will like MO ofc, but the correlation is there.
Since the spectrum is almost always viewed as themepark on one end, sandbox on the other, it's also clear that MO would appeal more to people that like sandboxes than themeparks. To be honest, people who are unabashed fans of 'themepark' MMO's and prefer them to sandboxes by-and-large won't like Mortal as much as their themepark game of choice.
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
...yeah, I was way off base with my 'just an excuse to throw insults' line...
Yes you were, in the same way I would be off base if I said you use every excuse to promote MO regardless of the facts ... Good for the goose etc.
fact is, arguing the definition of 'sandbox' is stupid for exactly the same reason debating the definition of 'freedom', 'love'.. there will never be a definition that suits everyone's criteria. It's human language, and as such is subjective. If there's any use in applying labels like 'sandbox' to a game, it's to signify that people who like other games with that label will find qualities of the game in question that they like.
And there is the rub. As I said earlier, those who want people to pay for MO regardless of the state it's in use the word to try and sucker people into spending money on a broken product that has very few of the attributes those same people describe as "sandbox".
No one has posted in this thread any feature of MO that is not in a game denigrated as "themepark" by MO's fans. So if those features are in other games, why pay for the broken mess that is MO instead of a solid working game.
That's what happened with me. I like sandbox MMO's, and someone described Mortal as a sandbox.
You see? It worked on you, which is why it's important to define the term and stop the "MO is the last hope of sandbox!" rubbish. It is false advertising and dishonest, even using the definitions provided by MO fans.
I checked it out, and it indeed had a lot of features that I like in a game... in my case it's full loot, non-restricted locations and gear, and a design that encouraged player interaction (limitted NPC involvement in the economy, a forceful lack of instanced zones, etc.). This is not to say that everyone that likes any sandbox game will like MO ofc, but the correlation is there.
All of those things are in games that you describe as themepark. Your argument has no consistency.
Since the spectrum is almost always viewed as themepark on one end, sandbox on the other, it's also clear that MO would appeal more to people that like sandboxes than themeparks.
You have defined neither sandbox nor themepark, so the above is meaningless. EQ was more sandbox than MO, or do you deny that? I could raid Felwithe in EQ for eg, can I raid Fabernum in MO or will godlike invisible guards strike me down?
To be honest, people who are unabashed fans of 'themepark' MMO's and prefer them to sandboxes by-and-large won't like Mortal as much as their themepark game of choice.
Again you use words without defining them. What is more "themepark" than not being able to choose where to put my house or being unable to attack where and what I choose?
In summary, you use words that you cannot define to defend and promote a product that that is not unique in any way and that is, by your own definition, more themepark than games such as EQ or DAOC.
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
For someone who objects to being misquoted, you certainly are taking liberties with what I've said. I noted that MO is not a "pure" sandbox, and that it is on the sandbox enf of a continuum. You deny that there is any continuum, but do not provide any discrete differences between a "sandbox" and a "themepark"
I did not deny anything, I posted a link referring to a debating fallacy. Some of your posts are full of links that don't relate to the argument at all (looking at you UE discussion), at least my link was relevant. Where did I say your comment was fallacious? I didn't did I, nor did I say I agreed with any definition you are ascribing to me. Posting that link did not mean I agreed with you or disagreed with you, it was merely an observation to stimulate debate.
Ah, so I take it you have no postion on whether there is a continuum. I guess I'll wait for you to state a position before I try to debate the accuracy of your position.
In this case, my statement that there is a continuum and games can have varying degrees of being open-ended amd "sandboxy" stands unopposed.
Originally posted by Betel
To put it simply, I put you in a position of direct opposition to other pro-SV posters and this thread has developed pretty much as I thought it would.
I don't recall anyone stating that MO was a "pure" sandbox and denying that there is a continuum. E.G. no direct opposition.
Originally posted by Betel
So I can put a house anywhere I like in MO can I? I will save you the time and answer for you - no you cannot so the system is NOT the same as UO. It's not even close and claiming otherwise is an outright lie.
The "criteria" is a pre-designated house spot chosen by the developers. That is as themepark as it gets, it has no player input at all.
Player have ZERO choice in where to place housing - all the spots were chosen by the Devs. How is that remotely sandbox?
Ahh when did they change UO such that you can place a house on the road, inside magincia (or any NPC city), in a forest,or on top of a mountain?
Being able to choose between hundreds of possible house locations IS player input.
Originally posted by Betel
Yet people use the exact same gear as everyone else. A million choices but only a few are ever used. Sounds like either terrible design or wasted dev time - or both.
And people make the exact same chars in a similar fashion to the crafting. Again, a million options that are unusable are no options at all.
"The more sandbox you give your players, the less the themepark aspects of the game work. If players can pick any skill they want without being restricted to classes or skill-trees, then you end up with cookie-cutter builds and a shallow PVE game."
If you are arguing for better balance of skills to make more cookie-cutter builds for the min-maxers I've got no argument there.
As I said a s-a-n-d-b-o-x g-a-m-e h-a-s t-h-e q-u-a-l-t-i-e-s o-f a-n o-p-e-n w-o-r-l-d, a-n-d n-o-n-l-i-n-e-a-r g-a-m-e-p-l-a-y.
Your keyboard appears to be broken, might want to get that seen to. It will make your posts more legible.
"The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively, boundless of artificial structural constraints, and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game." from the first link.
How does this apply to MO? There are plenty of artificial constraints, such as the inability to place a house where I wish, or attack Fabernum for example.
Therefore MO fails this test (assuming the test is valid of course).
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[19][20][21][22] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game."
This is meaningless, my friends son play WoW without regard to levels, monsters or instances. He wanders around talking to people and has a great time. Just about any game could be played this way if you so choose. I could play Tetris and make pretty pictures instead of "playing the game the right way". Does that make Tetris a sandbox?
Do you perhaps mean a game where there is no defined goal at all? Well WOW does not have a defined goal either, nor does any other MMO. So by this argument, all MMO's are absolutely sandbox in nature and there are no themepark MMO's.
I was not comparing games to one an other, but what I was doing was use it describe what a sandbox game is.
If we take your first definition, MO is not a sandbox, and by your second definition any MMO can be a sandbox. Neither option looks good for MO.
I was not hiding any thing into anything if you put in sandbox into the search bar in Wikipedia that is the address that it gave me. How you open the links, and then LOOK AT THE ADDRESS BAR in it, it the exact same address link that I posted.
The links you gave redirect to the Open World and Non Linear Gameplay pages. Why didn't you just link directly to those pages? Is it so that sandbox would appear in your post and links? That also shows that even WIki has no definition of sandbox that survives analysis.
I spelt it out because you do not understand what I am saying at all. All video games have in them artificial constraints limit game play, but it is how limiting on game play that matters. You could attack Fabernum, but would not get to far. It is not fact that you limited where you can place a house, It is the fact that it is up to player to deicide if they want a house or not, well playing the game. WOW, you brought up WoW in if you not playing your role correctly you will hear about from other players. In WoW there are defined roles for classes in that game, also you are restricted to the players level, and faction. WoW does have defined goals there are get the top tier gear, and raid. Or, get the top gear in Pvp. These are not my definition they are the worlds definiftion of a sandbox. It take both definition to define a game as a sandbox game. I did link directly to the pages. Go To Wikipedia And Put Sandbox In To The Search Box, And Tell What Other Link You Get For The Pages I Link To? If you look under Open world, and Nonlinear gameplay It says "Redirected from Sandbox game", and "Redirected from Sandbox (videogames)".
It is the fact that it is up to player to deicide if they what a house or not well playing the game. WOW you brought up WoW in if you not playing your role correct you will about from other players.
/thread IMHO
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
...yeah, I was way off base with my 'just an excuse to throw insults' line...
fact is, arguing the definition of 'sandbox' is stupid for exactly the same reason debating the definition of 'freedom', 'love'.. there will never be a definition that suits everyone's criteria. It's human language, and as such is subjective. If there's any use in applying labels like 'sandbox' to a game, it's to signify that people who like other games with that label will find qualities of the game in question that they like. That's what happened with me. I like sandbox MMO's, and someone described Mortal as a sandbox. I checked it out, and it indeed had a lot of features that I like in a game... in my case it's full loot, non-restricted locations and gear, and a design that encouraged player interaction (limitted NPC involvement in the economy, a forceful lack of instanced zones, etc.). This is not to say that everyone that likes any sandbox game will like MO ofc, but the correlation is there.
Since the spectrum is almost always viewed as themepark on one end, sandbox on the other, it's also clear that MO would appeal more to people that like sandboxes than themeparks. To be honest, people who are unabashed fans of 'themepark' MMO's and prefer them to sandboxes by-and-large won't like Mortal as much as their themepark game of choice.
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
side topic: In my opinion, the arguments that go "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" are equivalent to me posting that Blade Runner isn't a sci fi because it didn't have aliens...
saying "MO isn't a sandbox because it doesn't have features x, y, or z" is like saying blade runner isn't a sci-fi because it doesn't have aliens...
Ah, so I take it you have no postion on whether there is a continuum. I guess I'll wait for you to state a position before I try to debate the accuracy of your position.
In this case, my statement that there is a continuum and games can have varying degrees of being open-ended amd "sandboxy" stands unopposed.
I don't recall anyone stating that MO was a "pure" sandbox and denying that there is a continuum. E.G. no direct opposition.
Ahh when did they change UO such that you can place a house on the road, inside magincia (or any NPC city), in a forest,or on top of a mountain?
Being able to choose between hundreds of possible house locations IS player input.
http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/12/06/the-ultimate-sandbox-mmo/
"The more sandbox you give your players, the less the themepark aspects of the game work. If players can pick any skill they want without being restricted to classes or skill-trees, then you end up with cookie-cutter builds and a shallow PVE game."
If you are arguing for better balance of skills to make more cookie-cutter builds for the min-maxers I've got no argument there.
I spelt it out because you do not understand what I am saying at all. All video games have in them artificial constraints limit game play, but it is how limiting on game play that matters. You could attack Fabernum, but would not get to far. It is not fact that you limited where you can place a house, It is the fact that it is up to player to deicide if they want a house or not, well playing the game. WOW, you brought up WoW in if you not playing your role correctly you will hear about from other players. In WoW there are defined roles for classes in that game, also you are restricted to the players level, and faction. WoW does have defined goals there are get the top tier gear, and raid. Or, get the top gear in Pvp. These are not my definition they are the worlds definiftion of a sandbox. It take both definition to define a game as a sandbox game. I did link directly to the pages. Go To Wikipedia And Put Sandbox In To The Search Box, And Tell What Other Link You Get For The Pages I Link To? If you look under Open world, and Nonlinear gameplay It says "Redirected from Sandbox game", and "Redirected from Sandbox (videogames)".
/thread IMHO
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018