Really this whole W v W v W setup isn't striking me as odd too badly. I've been watching Fringe since it premeired and I kinda get a similar feeling about what's going on in the Mists.
... but GW2 does have its own setting and lore from the ground-up, built upon the foundations of GW1, which was 3 whole campaigns and an expansion (Along with various content added on top of that). There's a TON of lore in GW2. In fact, their blog entries have gone into quite a lot of detail on all sorts of lore, from minor races to political parties.
In fact, the only argument I've seen is 'I'm not personally familiar with how they're going to justify the PvP, so obviously they can't possibly have a justification, and must be ignoring the lore'.
Which is a poor argument. Your ignorance doesn't equal another company's incompetence, it just means you're ignorant.
Don't feel bad though, we all are on this particular subject.
I know there is lore in this game, there's no question about it. If it's built based on GW1s lore, then the question becomes whether that game had lore as an afterthought or not.
And more importantly, why am I ignorant on the subject? I'd gladly read about the lore but so far it hasn't peaked my interest. How many actually know the setting of this game, and what's going on? Or is it even worth knowing when there's "WvWvW and cool dynamic events"?
If the premise is interesting, the game becomes much more interesting as a whole. You really start caring about what you're doing, instead of clicking away the text boxes and spamming enter on the cutscenes because everything feels like they're made for this quest you're about to do and don't have meaning beyond that.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I know there is lore in this game, there's no question about it. If it's built based on GW1s lore, then the question becomes whether that game had lore as an afterthought or not.
And more importantly, why am I ignorant on the subject? I'd gladly read about the lore but so far it hasn't peaked my interest. How many actually know the setting of this game, and what's going on? Or is it even worth knowing when there's "WvWvW and cool dynamic events"?
If the premise is interesting, the game becomes much more interesting as a whole. You really start caring about what you're doing, instead of clicking away the text boxes and spamming enter on the cutscenes because everything feels like they're made for this quest you're about to do and don't have meaning beyond that.
Of course you're ignorant on the subject of the lore justifications for W v W, because they haven't released much information on the PvP yet, and only casually brushed the lore aspects of it only in passing.
Therefore, we're all ignorant on how exactly, W v W is justified in lore.
Also, GW1 is actually a very story driven game. The whole way it's designed and written revolves around the story telling, and most of the story has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay, it's just story.
I mean, all of GW1 revolves around you moving from location to location because of a huge overarching plot. They've actually done blog articles on how the design process for GW2 works, including event design, but you're apparently not really interested in it, and I'm certainly not caring enough about it to find the links to show you.
... and I think it's pretty safe to say that there's not any LESS of a percentage of people interested in the game who are familiar with the lore of GW2 than most any other MMORPG....
I care about the lore, and know quite a lot about everything. Enough to have extrapolated how the Charr could invent typewriters based off of their particular culture... but I digress. So people CAN care about lore. You liking or not liking it is your own personal decision, and anecdotal, just the same as me enjoying the lore.
I care about the lore, and know quite a lot about everything. Enough to have extrapolated how the Charr could invent typewriters based off of their particular culture... but I digress. So people CAN care about lore.
Well, hopefully that's true for the majority of people as well.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I'm not sure of the lore behind it completely, but it appears as though the WvWvW is going to give some pretty big bonuses to the winning realm. Which would lend to some sort of reasoning behind why the worlds are fighting
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
It requires some truly creative thinking to make it fit (and fit uncomfortably at that
Bottom line in my eyes is: it doesn't make a sliver of sense but the WvWvW is there for gameplay's sake.
In a purely gameplay perspective it sounds like a great concept to pitch three servers against eachother and rotate them each week.
The post above you seemed to have decent explanations, but lets be serious, there's no way to explain some of the mechanics in current MMORPGs. I'm killing the Lich King for the 500th time, or the fact that these freaking rodents must be having sex non stop because there are thousands of people trying to kill them. I'm not sure that current technology will allow for Lore to completely explain many of the mechanics. I think it will be great for gameplay and I'm not really caring too much on the lore side of this.
Agreed but every RPG needs a minimum of lore that makes sense to be anything more than a gameplay centered themepark. or a sandbox without background. It is the sauce of story, immersion and the way you think about your character. Even those who despise elaborate lore and hate roleplaying need a certain amount of lore sauce to be able to digest an RPG.
Anet, like most other mmorpg developers, went with a basic concept in gameplay mechanics first:
- We want a main world where people are safe from player conflict: a place where people work together
- We still want an experience similar to World PVP but optional and outside of the main world.
Then the consequences readily presented themselves:
- Player races can not be in violent conflict with eachother
- We will have large areas outside of the main world to pitch servers against servers and create seperate player factions for pvp purposes in that way. (Smart solution tbh).
The lore, ranging from "we have no time to fight amongst eachother because we are facing a mutual threat" to "fighting for the favor of the gods in the eternal realm of yada-yada" comes last.
As for rainbows and butterflies, I'm pretty sure that the alliance between the humans and Charr is something that has very little to do with happy thoughts, more like a desperate cease fire to fend off a greater threat.
Yes, the dragons, but don't forget the vital importance to cooperate with former eternal enemies to make sure the cattle stays in the barn ;-)
Seriously, the dragons are just another lore bit added afterwards to explain Anet's choice to have no world pvp in the main world and warrant a very unlikely alliance between the races.
I have no problem with any of this, but don't forget to see things in the right order:
I care about the lore, and know quite a lot about everything. Enough to have extrapolated how the Charr could invent typewriters based off of their particular culture... but I digress. So people CAN care about lore.
Well, hopefully that's true for the majority of people as well.
Doubtful. Even in a relatively RP-heavy game, on the unofficial RP server... like CoH for example... I knew more about the lore than most of the RPers.
I mean, even the people in LotRO are only so-so on the lore. I mean, I actually had people trying to tell me that they couldn't put flying mounts or flight paths in LotRO because it isn't canonical...
... we're not even talking Silmarillion stuff here, that's stuff that's in the original trilogy! .... and people who play that game should have like... degress in advanced Tolkienology.
Seriously. People who play MMORPGs are mostly there to play the game, not because they're major lore hounds. Even if the gameplay is shitty most of the time, the game makes up for it by having people to game with. EVERY game is more fun with extra people.
(... except maybe porn games. Then you're just being creepy....)
The only way you can have the vast majority of players heavily into the lore, is to have a game with a few thousand players.
Not a tradeoff a company that is paying tens of millions of dollars would usually be willing to put up with.
It requires some truly creative thinking to make it fit (and fit uncomfortably at that
Bottom line in my eyes is: it doesn't make a sliver of sense but the WvWvW is there for gameplay's sake.
In a purely gameplay perspective it sounds like a great concept to pitch three servers against eachother and rotate them each week.
The post above you seemed to have decent explanations, but lets be serious, there's no way to explain some of the mechanics in current MMORPGs. I'm killing the Lich King for the 500th time, or the fact that these freaking rodents must be having sex non stop because there are thousands of people trying to kill them. I'm not sure that current technology will allow for Lore to completely explain many of the mechanics. I think it will be great for gameplay and I'm not really caring too much on the lore side of this.
Agreed but every RPG needs a minimum of lore that makes sense to be anything more than a gameplay centered themepark. or a sandbox without background. It is the sauce of story, immersion and the way you think about your character. Even those who despise elaborate lore and hate roleplaying need a certain amount of lore sauce to be able to digest an RPG.
Anet, like most other mmorpg developers, went with a basic concept in gameplay mechanics first:
- We want a main world where people are safe from player conflict: a place where people work together
- We still want an experience similar to World PVP but optional and outside of the main world.
Then the consequences readily presented themselves:
- Player races can not be in violent conflict with eachother
- We will have large areas outside of the main world to pitch servers against servers and create seperate player factions in that way.
The lore, ranging from "we have no time to fight amongst eachother because we are facing a mutual threat" to "fighting for the favor of the gods in the eternal realm of yaday-yada" comes last.
As for rainbows and butterflies, I'm pretty sure that the alliance between the humans and Charr is something that has very little to do with happy thoughts, more like a desperate cease fire to fend off a greater threat.
Yes, the dragons, but don't forget the vital importance to cooperate with former eternal enemies to make sure the cattle stays in the barn ;-)
Seriously, the dragons are just another lore bit added afterwards to explain Anet's choice to have no world pvp in the main world and warrant a very unlikely alliance between the races.
I have no problem with any of this, but don't forget to see things in the right order:
1. Core game concept
2. Gameplay
3. Everything else
I agree there definitely needs to be lore, I mean it is an RPG, I loved KOTAR because the story was so engrossing. My point is that some things just can't have a perfect explanation in an MMO.
Yeah I mentioned in another post here that the Mists seem more a creation to allow PvP but not within the World itself and the lore was created to explain it, not the other way around.
I'm not to certain that the Dragons were added after the fact as some sort of alliance explanation. It seems that the only reason we see the Norns and the Asura are because of the dragons, but who really knows exactly how all of this developed.
It requires some truly creative thinking to make it fit (and fit uncomfortably at that
Bottom line in my eyes is: it doesn't make a sliver of sense but the WvWvW is there for gameplay's sake.
In a purely gameplay perspective it sounds like a great concept to pitch three servers against eachother and rotate them each week.
Yes, the dragons, but don't forget the vital importance to cooperate with former eternal enemies to make sure the cattle stays in the barn ;-)
Seriously, the dragons are just another lore bit added afterwards to explain Anet's choice to have no world pvp in the main world and warrant a very unlikely alliance between the races.
Post has failed. You are saying that ArenaNet already had WvWvW-PvP in mind before or during the development of GW:EotN, the expansion which gave a direct hint at a story that would involve dragons and that was released in 2007, the same year that ArenaNet started developing GW2.
I have no problem with any of this, but don't forget to see things in the right order:
1. Core game concept
2. Gameplay
3. Everything else
Sounds like a nice blurb, but it's actually untrue.
Back before they decided whether or not they wanted open world PvP (It was under discussion at one point in time), they already had the five races finalized, and the conflicts between them.
So while it makes good bullet points, and explains things for you, it's actually not factual, and therefore not useful information you're giving out. I've known the lore behind GW2 (Like the dragons), several years ago, while almost EVERYTHING gameplay-wise was still in the air.
They were deciding on how PvP would be, they still thought everybody would have 1 companion (An idea they ditched), and they couldn't even decide whether they wanted 0 levels or lots and lots of levels.
I guess they could have been lying, and secretly had all the core game concepts and gameplay finalized, and just gave out crazy misleading misinformation just so I could write this post and point to their fake chronological order, but I find that dubious at best.
It requires some truly creative thinking to make it fit (and fit uncomfortably at that
Bottom line in my eyes is: it doesn't make a sliver of sense but the WvWvW is there for gameplay's sake.
In a purely gameplay perspective it sounds like a great concept to pitch three servers against eachother and rotate them each week.
Yes, the dragons, but don't forget the vital importance to cooperate with former eternal enemies to make sure the cattle stays in the barn ;-)
Seriously, the dragons are just another lore bit added afterwards to explain Anet's choice to have no world pvp in the main world and warrant a very unlikely alliance between the races.
Post has failed. You are saying that ArenaNet already had WvWvW-PvP in mind before or during the development of GW:EotN, the expansion which gave a direct hint at a story that would involve dragons and that was released in 2007, the same year that ArenaNet started developing GW2.
Boo that makes it look like I said the blue text
I had to read it like 10 times to realize I didn't say any of that LOL
It requires some truly creative thinking to make it fit (and fit uncomfortably at that
Bottom line in my eyes is: it doesn't make a sliver of sense but the WvWvW is there for gameplay's sake.
In a purely gameplay perspective it sounds like a great concept to pitch three servers against eachother and rotate them each week.
Yes, the dragons, but don't forget the vital importance to cooperate with former eternal enemies to make sure the cattle stays in the barn ;-)
Seriously, the dragons are just another lore bit added afterwards to explain Anet's choice to have no world pvp in the main world and warrant a very unlikely alliance between the races.
Post has failed. You are saying that ArenaNet already had WvWvW-PvP in mind before or during the development of GW:EotN, the expansion which gave a direct hint at a story that would involve dragons and that was released in 2007, the same year that ArenaNet started developing GW2.
Read carefully. I didn't write "thought up afterwards". And you can go all kinds of ways with dragons, or titans, or liches or whatever aspect you have introduced in a prior game.
But are you saying that just because of their evil dragon plot they decided against having open world pvp and war between factions?
I really think having a main world where people can cooperate peacefully on their novel feature: Dynamic Events, is one of the basic pillars of the game's core concept. Dragons and in what manner they are a threat for everyone or not is entirely secondary but they can be nicely used as an explanation to explain this peace treaty.
It requires some truly creative thinking to make it fit (and fit uncomfortably at that
Bottom line in my eyes is: it doesn't make a sliver of sense but the WvWvW is there for gameplay's sake.
In a purely gameplay perspective it sounds like a great concept to pitch three servers against eachother and rotate them each week.
Yes, the dragons, but don't forget the vital importance to cooperate with former eternal enemies to make sure the cattle stays in the barn ;-)
Seriously, the dragons are just another lore bit added afterwards to explain Anet's choice to have no world pvp in the main world and warrant a very unlikely alliance between the races.
Post has failed. You are saying that ArenaNet already had WvWvW-PvP in mind before or during the development of GW:EotN, the expansion which gave a direct hint at a story that would involve dragons and that was released in 2007, the same year that ArenaNet started developing GW2.
Read carefully. I didn't write "thought up afterwards". And you can go all kinds of ways with dragons, or titans, or liches or whatever aspect you have introduced in a prior game.
But are you saying that just because of their evil dragon plot they decided against having open world pvp and war between factions?
I really think having a main world where people can cooperate peacefully on their novel feature: Dynamic Events, is one of the basic pillars of the game's core concept. Dragons and in what manner they are a threat for everyone or not is entirely secondary but they can be nicely used as an explanation to explain this peace treaty.
But you said "dragons are just another lorebit added afterwards". I am saying that it's unlikely that ArenaNet had WvWvW-PvP in mind when they were adding dragons. We've only got little snippets of information regarding WvWvW-PvP while we've got information on the dragons even before WvWvW-PvP was being developed and you actually believe that they added dragons to explain WvWvW-PvP
But are you saying that just because of their evil dragon plot they decided against having open world pvp and war between factions?
I really think having a main world where people can cooperate peacefully on their novel feature: Dynamic Events, is one of the basic pillars of the game's core concept. Dragons and in what manner they are a threat for everyone or not is entirely secondary but they can be nicely used as an explanation to explain this peace treaty.
They already had the basic plot outline hinted at/revealed in the magazine article introducing GW2 oh-so-long ago.
Now, if you were to say that they think the gameplay is MORE important, and that the lore can be shaped to fit it, I'd shrug and say that's possibly true.
... but it's not that it came first, necessarily.
That's the nice thing about lore, you can always shape it to justify your game design, if you're even halfway competent.
I have no problem with any of this, but don't forget to see things in the right order:
1. Core game concept
2. Gameplay
3. Everything else
Sounds like a nice blurb, but it's actually untrue.
Back before they decided whether or not they wanted open world PvP (It was under discussion at one point in time), they already had the five races finalized, and the conflicts between them.
Sure, you can think up the lore, the races, the seperate gameplay aspects, the beautiful sights, rich cultures, landscapes and whatnot before you really start building a game, but once you've got your core concept nailed down, everything else has to follow suit and is subject to change if it conflicts with the basic concept.
So while it makes good bullet points, and explains things for you, it's actually not factual, and therefore not useful information you're giving out. I've known the lore behind GW2 (Like the dragons), several years ago, while almost EVERYTHING gameplay-wise was still in the air.
They were deciding on how PvP would be, they still thought everybody would have 1 companion (An idea they ditched), and they couldn't even decide whether they wanted 0 levels or lots and lots of levels.
I guess they could have been lying, and secretly had all the core game concepts and gameplay finalized, and just gave out crazy misleading misinformation just so I could write this post and point to their fake chronological order, but I find that dubious at best.
I for one, I never doubted your knowledge of GW lore but it doesn't change a thing of my main point really.
It requires some truly creative thinking to make it fit (and fit uncomfortably at that
Bottom line in my eyes is: it doesn't make a sliver of sense but the WvWvW is there for gameplay's sake.
In a purely gameplay perspective it sounds like a great concept to pitch three servers against eachother and rotate them each week.
Yes, the dragons, but don't forget the vital importance to cooperate with former eternal enemies to make sure the cattle stays in the barn ;-)
Seriously, the dragons are just another lore bit added afterwards to explain Anet's choice to have no world pvp in the main world and warrant a very unlikely alliance between the races.
Post has failed. You are saying that ArenaNet already had WvWvW-PvP in mind before or during the development of GW:EotN, the expansion which gave a direct hint at a story that would involve dragons and that was released in 2007, the same year that ArenaNet started developing GW2.
Read carefully. I didn't write "thought up afterwards". And you can go all kinds of ways with dragons, or titans, or liches or whatever aspect you have introduced in a prior game.
But are you saying that just because of their evil dragon plot they decided against having open world pvp and war between factions?
I really think having a main world where people can cooperate peacefully on their novel feature: Dynamic Events, is one of the basic pillars of the game's core concept. Dragons and in what manner they are a threat for everyone or not is entirely secondary but they can be nicely used as an explanation to explain this peace treaty.
But you said "dragons are just another lorebit added afterwards". I am saying that it's unlikely that ArenaNet had WvWvW-PvP in mind when they were adding dragons. We've only got little snippets of information regarding WvWvW-PvP while we've got information on the dragons even before WvWvW-PvP was being developed and you actually believe that they added dragons to explain WvWvW-PvP
No I didn't write that. I say: Dragons do a nice job in explaining the unlikely alliance between races. An alliance which isn't there because of the dragons but because the core concept of having a main game where people work together on an open world's DE content.
Sure, you can think up the lore, the races, the seperate gameplay aspects, the beautiful sights, rich cultures, landscapes and whatnot before you really start building a game, but once you've got your core concept nailed down, everything else has to follow suit and is subject to change if it conflicts with the basic concept.
I mentioned this in another post in passing, but it's worth pointing out again that I think the basic misunderstanding is that most people were taking your 'this came first' to be a claim as to chronological order, while what I now think you mean is that you're saying 'this comes first' as in order of importance.
... and I'll be honest. I'm not sure 'Trying to make a game that fits our core vision' is the worst possible thing to have as your top priority.
I'm not saying lore should be sacrificed on the altar of gameplay, just that... in my personal opinion, it should be subservient to the gameplay.
Well, really, the thing that comes first should be fun, but gameplay is close after that...
Sure, you can think up the lore, the races, the seperate gameplay aspects, the beautiful sights, rich cultures, landscapes and whatnot before you really start building a game, but once you've got your core concept nailed down, everything else has to follow suit and is subject to change if it conflicts with the basic concept.
I mentioned this in another post in passing, but it's worth pointing out again that I think the basic misunderstanding is that most people were taking your 'this came first' to be a claim as to chronological order, while what I now think you mean is that you're saying 'this comes first' as in order of importance.
... and I'll be honest. I'm not sure 'Trying to make a game that fits our core vision' is the worst possible thing to have as your top priority.
I'm not saying lore should be sacrificed on the altar of gameplay, just that... in my personal opinion, it should be subservient to the gameplay.
Well, really, the thing that comes first should be fun, but gameplay is close after that...
We fully agree then
And fun actually has to do a lot with the core game aspect: being able to gank someone doing a DE, steal the completion bonus and teabag the unrevived guy afterwards sounds like a shitload of fun to me but I understand very well that it wouldn't be so much fun for a lot of other people.
Actually, I would say that GW2 is doing a LOT better job with the lore than most MMORPGs. You might not be familiar with it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They've done all kinds of interesting things with the lore too, like putting secret references to GW1, hiding information and secret events, and even writing signs all over the game using different alphabets that are actually translatable.
In fact, just offhand, I can't think of anything that actually is inconsistent. Just because nobody knows why people are fighting in the Mists yet doesn't mean it's inconsistent, it just means we have insufficient information to judge one way or the other.
Is there any place I can read about it? Also, is there some kind of driving force for the game? Like, some progression?
I can't help but think that all these things were thought as "something cool we could do", and then the lore was implemented for them afterwards to justify their existence.
I dunno, one of darkponies thorns in the side is the fact that there is not open world PVP. It has been centuries since Guildwars and there is a common enemy, but I do think there was more Lore being manipulated to justify their *everyone loves each other* PVE worlds, then gameplay reflecting the reality they're trying to push on us.
While I see the above, I also don't see them doing something just for it's coolness factor. They have done a lot of work on the story side, and I don't see them being the kind of people that would do that very often.
This is probably the single biggest mischaracterization of the game I've seen, yet it's one that is continually trotted out by folks who generally want to play another game.
This everyone loves each other nonesense is pure hyperbole. There is no love between the humans and charr, there's a barely maintained peace. There is no love between charr and norn, there's grudging respect. There's no love between the norn and the sylvari, just a lot of head scratching. And finally, there is no love between the asura and ANYONE, but there is a lot of dismissiveness, arrogance, ridicule and poorly masked derision.
Because every race isn't at every other race's throats, isn't as a result of love. Try pragmatism, logic and survival instinct. Hell, the races sometimes can barely keep their weapons sheathed over internal conflicts. Yet the erroneous accusations that Tyria is actually a fantasy version of Haight Ashbury, circa 1967, persist. Give it up.
Lets be honest though, not being able to attack another player stretches any concept of lore as well. These kinds of things are game play decisions, not lore decisions. There is no way the balance between the races is such that they never fight each other much less fight anyone from their own race.
As for the mists, they make no sense at all. But again a game without PvP is a niche game and they want to capture a bigger part of the market.
Actually, I would say that GW2 is doing a LOT better job with the lore than most MMORPGs. You might not be familiar with it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They've done all kinds of interesting things with the lore too, like putting secret references to GW1, hiding information and secret events, and even writing signs all over the game using different alphabets that are actually translatable.
In fact, just offhand, I can't think of anything that actually is inconsistent. Just because nobody knows why people are fighting in the Mists yet doesn't mean it's inconsistent, it just means we have insufficient information to judge one way or the other.
Is there any place I can read about it? Also, is there some kind of driving force for the game? Like, some progression?
I can't help but think that all these things were thought as "something cool we could do", and then the lore was implemented for them afterwards to justify their existence.
I dunno, one of darkponies thorns in the side is the fact that there is not open world PVP. It has been centuries since Guildwars and there is a common enemy, but I do think there was more Lore being manipulated to justify their *everyone loves each other* PVE worlds, then gameplay reflecting the reality they're trying to push on us.
While I see the above, I also don't see them doing something just for it's coolness factor. They have done a lot of work on the story side, and I don't see them being the kind of people that would do that very often.
This is probably the single biggest mischaracterization of the game I've seen, yet it's one that is continually trotted out by folks who generally want to play another game.
This everyone loves each other nonesense is pure hyperbole. There is no love between the humans and charr, there's a barely maintained peace. There is no love between charr and norn, there's grudging respect. There's no love between the norn and the sylvari, just a lot of head scratching. And finally, there is no love between the asura and ANYONE, but there is a lot of dismissiveness, arrogance, ridicule and poorly masked derision.
Because every race isn't at every other race's throats, isn't as a result of love. Try pragmatism, logic and survival instinct. Hell, the races sometimes can barely keep their weapons sheathed over internal conflicts. Yet the erroneous accusations that Tyria is actually a fantasy version of Haight Ashbury, circa 1967, persist. Give it up.
By the way, this is all based on Tyrian lore.
You'll notice that I put it into *.* It's ridiculous to think that there is absolutely no PvP going on in the open world and that there is only Mists fighting between (edit: playable) races. Plain and simple. They're forcing people to play friends with a race that, lore wise, this type of behavior would be normal, even with an alliance IMO. Now like I said in previous posts in this very convo, it's not all about Rainbow and Butterflies, but it is a little nonsensical to believe that there is no PvP in Tyria.
Balthazar himself, god of war, fire and challenge, opened a new gate to the mists.
"For weeks did the battle rage on, and those who had taken up the mantle of war grew weary and their courage began to falter.
Then did Balthazar, God of war and fire, appear to the soldiers, carrying with him a grand sword that did glow with such brilliance it blinded any who looked upon it. When he spoke, His voice was like thunder, and it shook the ground with force.
Then saith He, "Lift up thy weapons. For you are my soldiers, and must you be steadfast, strong, and brave of heart. They who neither hesitate nor stumble shall be rewarded. Then shall you have glory. Then shall your deeds be remembered for eternity."
And then did release from His sword a hundred thousand flames, which encircled the soldiers. For this was the fire of courage, and forthwith did they follow the God into battle without fear or hesitation. Thence was the enemy struck down.
Actually, I would say that GW2 is doing a LOT better job with the lore than most MMORPGs. You might not be familiar with it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They've done all kinds of interesting things with the lore too, like putting secret references to GW1, hiding information and secret events, and even writing signs all over the game using different alphabets that are actually translatable.
In fact, just offhand, I can't think of anything that actually is inconsistent. Just because nobody knows why people are fighting in the Mists yet doesn't mean it's inconsistent, it just means we have insufficient information to judge one way or the other.
Is there any place I can read about it? Also, is there some kind of driving force for the game? Like, some progression?
I can't help but think that all these things were thought as "something cool we could do", and then the lore was implemented for them afterwards to justify their existence.
I dunno, one of darkponies thorns in the side is the fact that there is not open world PVP. It has been centuries since Guildwars and there is a common enemy, but I do think there was more Lore being manipulated to justify their *everyone loves each other* PVE worlds, then gameplay reflecting the reality they're trying to push on us.
While I see the above, I also don't see them doing something just for it's coolness factor. They have done a lot of work on the story side, and I don't see them being the kind of people that would do that very often.
This is probably the single biggest mischaracterization of the game I've seen, yet it's one that is continually trotted out by folks who generally want to play another game.
This everyone loves each other nonesense is pure hyperbole. There is no love between the humans and charr, there's a barely maintained peace. There is no love between charr and norn, there's grudging respect. There's no love between the norn and the sylvari, just a lot of head scratching. And finally, there is no love between the asura and ANYONE, but there is a lot of dismissiveness, arrogance, ridicule and poorly masked derision.
Because every race isn't at every other race's throats, isn't as a result of love. Try pragmatism, logic and survival instinct. Hell, the races sometimes can barely keep their weapons sheathed over internal conflicts. Yet the erroneous accusations that Tyria is actually a fantasy version of Haight Ashbury, circa 1967, persist. Give it up.
By the way, this is all based on Tyrian lore.
You'll notice that I put it into *.* It's ridiculous to think that there is absolutely no PvP going on in the open world and that there is only Mists fighting between (edit: playable) races. Plain and simple. They're forcing people to play friends with a race that, lore wise, this type of behavior would be normal, even with an alliance IMO. Now like I said in previous posts in this very convo, it's not all about Rainbow and Butterflies, but it is a little nonsensical to believe that there is no PvP in Tyria.
So would you prefer the lore to have been much more Rainbows and Butterflies so that the rationale for cooperative PvE is stronger? I'm guessing no. And the reason I think is because it's not the lore that bothers you, it's the game's cooperative nature. Which is why I wrote that 'lovefest' comments are often made by people who are wanting to play a different game.
I think it's safe to assume that it doesn't matter how fleshed out the storyline is, how intricately woven and detailed it is, how grounded in logic it is, some people just won't accept it because it doesn't support the game mechanics they want. I mean, using your rationale, there really can be no such thing as a game without open-world PvP because it's a little nonsensical to believe that there is no conflict between players in *any world*. If a game doesn't reflect that (like GW2), then it's doing something wrong. No amount of prose or poetry will change that, so why even bother complaining about the lore? The beef is with the lack of open-world PvP.
Comments
Really this whole W v W v W setup isn't striking me as odd too badly. I've been watching Fringe since it premeired and I kinda get a similar feeling about what's going on in the Mists.
I know there is lore in this game, there's no question about it. If it's built based on GW1s lore, then the question becomes whether that game had lore as an afterthought or not.
And more importantly, why am I ignorant on the subject? I'd gladly read about the lore but so far it hasn't peaked my interest. How many actually know the setting of this game, and what's going on? Or is it even worth knowing when there's "WvWvW and cool dynamic events"?
If the premise is interesting, the game becomes much more interesting as a whole. You really start caring about what you're doing, instead of clicking away the text boxes and spamming enter on the cutscenes because everything feels like they're made for this quest you're about to do and don't have meaning beyond that.
Of course you're ignorant on the subject of the lore justifications for W v W, because they haven't released much information on the PvP yet, and only casually brushed the lore aspects of it only in passing.
Therefore, we're all ignorant on how exactly, W v W is justified in lore.
Also, GW1 is actually a very story driven game. The whole way it's designed and written revolves around the story telling, and most of the story has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay, it's just story.
I mean, all of GW1 revolves around you moving from location to location because of a huge overarching plot. They've actually done blog articles on how the design process for GW2 works, including event design, but you're apparently not really interested in it, and I'm certainly not caring enough about it to find the links to show you.
... and I think it's pretty safe to say that there's not any LESS of a percentage of people interested in the game who are familiar with the lore of GW2 than most any other MMORPG....
I care about the lore, and know quite a lot about everything. Enough to have extrapolated how the Charr could invent typewriters based off of their particular culture... but I digress. So people CAN care about lore. You liking or not liking it is your own personal decision, and anecdotal, just the same as me enjoying the lore.
Well, hopefully that's true for the majority of people as well.
I'm not sure of the lore behind it completely, but it appears as though the WvWvW is going to give some pretty big bonuses to the winning realm. Which would lend to some sort of reasoning behind why the worlds are fighting
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
— The Guild Wars Manuscripts
The Mists is the realm of the afterlife. They are the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. It is where the various afterlives and the homes of various gods and other powerful entities reside. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality - islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.1
Demons and other beings, such as Razah, are created from the Mists themselves.
Source - http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mists
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Doubtful. Even in a relatively RP-heavy game, on the unofficial RP server... like CoH for example... I knew more about the lore than most of the RPers.
I mean, even the people in LotRO are only so-so on the lore. I mean, I actually had people trying to tell me that they couldn't put flying mounts or flight paths in LotRO because it isn't canonical...
... we're not even talking Silmarillion stuff here, that's stuff that's in the original trilogy! .... and people who play that game should have like... degress in advanced Tolkienology.
Seriously. People who play MMORPGs are mostly there to play the game, not because they're major lore hounds. Even if the gameplay is shitty most of the time, the game makes up for it by having people to game with. EVERY game is more fun with extra people.
(... except maybe porn games. Then you're just being creepy....)
The only way you can have the vast majority of players heavily into the lore, is to have a game with a few thousand players.
Not a tradeoff a company that is paying tens of millions of dollars would usually be willing to put up with.
I agree there definitely needs to be lore, I mean it is an RPG, I loved KOTAR because the story was so engrossing. My point is that some things just can't have a perfect explanation in an MMO.
Yeah I mentioned in another post here that the Mists seem more a creation to allow PvP but not within the World itself and the lore was created to explain it, not the other way around.
I'm not to certain that the Dragons were added after the fact as some sort of alliance explanation. It seems that the only reason we see the Norns and the Asura are because of the dragons, but who really knows exactly how all of this developed.
Post has failed. You are saying that ArenaNet already had WvWvW-PvP in mind before or during the development of GW:EotN, the expansion which gave a direct hint at a story that would involve dragons and that was released in 2007, the same year that ArenaNet started developing GW2.
Sounds like a nice blurb, but it's actually untrue.
Back before they decided whether or not they wanted open world PvP (It was under discussion at one point in time), they already had the five races finalized, and the conflicts between them.
So while it makes good bullet points, and explains things for you, it's actually not factual, and therefore not useful information you're giving out. I've known the lore behind GW2 (Like the dragons), several years ago, while almost EVERYTHING gameplay-wise was still in the air.
They were deciding on how PvP would be, they still thought everybody would have 1 companion (An idea they ditched), and they couldn't even decide whether they wanted 0 levels or lots and lots of levels.
I guess they could have been lying, and secretly had all the core game concepts and gameplay finalized, and just gave out crazy misleading misinformation just so I could write this post and point to their fake chronological order, but I find that dubious at best.
Boo that makes it look like I said the blue text
I had to read it like 10 times to realize I didn't say any of that LOL
Read carefully. I didn't write "thought up afterwards". And you can go all kinds of ways with dragons, or titans, or liches or whatever aspect you have introduced in a prior game.
But are you saying that just because of their evil dragon plot they decided against having open world pvp and war between factions?
I really think having a main world where people can cooperate peacefully on their novel feature: Dynamic Events, is one of the basic pillars of the game's core concept. Dragons and in what manner they are a threat for everyone or not is entirely secondary but they can be nicely used as an explanation to explain this peace treaty.
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But you said "dragons are just another lorebit added afterwards". I am saying that it's unlikely that ArenaNet had WvWvW-PvP in mind when they were adding dragons. We've only got little snippets of information regarding WvWvW-PvP while we've got information on the dragons even before WvWvW-PvP was being developed and you actually believe that they added dragons to explain WvWvW-PvP
They already had the basic plot outline hinted at/revealed in the magazine article introducing GW2 oh-so-long ago.
Now, if you were to say that they think the gameplay is MORE important, and that the lore can be shaped to fit it, I'd shrug and say that's possibly true.
... but it's not that it came first, necessarily.
That's the nice thing about lore, you can always shape it to justify your game design, if you're even halfway competent.
My brand new bloggity blog.
No I didn't write that. I say: Dragons do a nice job in explaining the unlikely alliance between races. An alliance which isn't there because of the dragons but because the core concept of having a main game where people work together on an open world's DE content.
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I mentioned this in another post in passing, but it's worth pointing out again that I think the basic misunderstanding is that most people were taking your 'this came first' to be a claim as to chronological order, while what I now think you mean is that you're saying 'this comes first' as in order of importance.
... and I'll be honest. I'm not sure 'Trying to make a game that fits our core vision' is the worst possible thing to have as your top priority.
I'm not saying lore should be sacrificed on the altar of gameplay, just that... in my personal opinion, it should be subservient to the gameplay.
Well, really, the thing that comes first should be fun, but gameplay is close after that...
We fully agree then
And fun actually has to do a lot with the core game aspect: being able to gank someone doing a DE, steal the completion bonus and teabag the unrevived guy afterwards sounds like a shitload of fun to me but I understand very well that it wouldn't be so much fun for a lot of other people.
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This is probably the single biggest mischaracterization of the game I've seen, yet it's one that is continually trotted out by folks who generally want to play another game.
This everyone loves each other nonesense is pure hyperbole. There is no love between the humans and charr, there's a barely maintained peace. There is no love between charr and norn, there's grudging respect. There's no love between the norn and the sylvari, just a lot of head scratching. And finally, there is no love between the asura and ANYONE, but there is a lot of dismissiveness, arrogance, ridicule and poorly masked derision.
Because every race isn't at every other race's throats, isn't as a result of love. Try pragmatism, logic and survival instinct. Hell, the races sometimes can barely keep their weapons sheathed over internal conflicts. Yet the erroneous accusations that Tyria is actually a fantasy version of Haight Ashbury, circa 1967, persist. Give it up.
By the way, this is all based on Tyrian lore.
Lets be honest though, not being able to attack another player stretches any concept of lore as well. These kinds of things are game play decisions, not lore decisions. There is no way the balance between the races is such that they never fight each other much less fight anyone from their own race.
As for the mists, they make no sense at all. But again a game without PvP is a niche game and they want to capture a bigger part of the market.
You'll notice that I put it into *.* It's ridiculous to think that there is absolutely no PvP going on in the open world and that there is only Mists fighting between (edit: playable) races. Plain and simple. They're forcing people to play friends with a race that, lore wise, this type of behavior would be normal, even with an alliance IMO. Now like I said in previous posts in this very convo, it's not all about Rainbow and Butterflies, but it is a little nonsensical to believe that there is no PvP in Tyria.
Balthazar himself, god of war, fire and challenge, opened a new gate to the mists.
"For weeks did the battle rage on, and those who had taken up the mantle of war grew weary and their courage began to falter.
Then did Balthazar, God of war and fire, appear to the soldiers, carrying with him a grand sword that did glow with such brilliance it blinded any who looked upon it. When he spoke, His voice was like thunder, and it shook the ground with force.
Then saith He, "Lift up thy weapons. For you are my soldiers, and must you be steadfast, strong, and brave of heart. They who neither hesitate nor stumble shall be rewarded. Then shall you have glory. Then shall your deeds be remembered for eternity."
And then did release from His sword a hundred thousand flames, which encircled the soldiers. For this was the fire of courage, and forthwith did they follow the God into battle without fear or hesitation. Thence was the enemy struck down.
— Scriptures of Balthazar, 48 BE"
Balthazar wants people to PvP. It's just his nature.
Balthazar wants people to PvP. It's just his nature.
God told me to kill those people. Good enough for me. Besides I'm sure they had it coming.
So would you prefer the lore to have been much more Rainbows and Butterflies so that the rationale for cooperative PvE is stronger? I'm guessing no. And the reason I think is because it's not the lore that bothers you, it's the game's cooperative nature. Which is why I wrote that 'lovefest' comments are often made by people who are wanting to play a different game.
I think it's safe to assume that it doesn't matter how fleshed out the storyline is, how intricately woven and detailed it is, how grounded in logic it is, some people just won't accept it because it doesn't support the game mechanics they want. I mean, using your rationale, there really can be no such thing as a game without open-world PvP because it's a little nonsensical to believe that there is no conflict between players in *any world*. If a game doesn't reflect that (like GW2), then it's doing something wrong. No amount of prose or poetry will change that, so why even bother complaining about the lore? The beef is with the lack of open-world PvP.