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Star Wars on rails, why be excited?
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Exept that what you described isn't a "story." Cool sequence of events though.. No character development, no antagonist/protagonist, no backstory, no reason to care about the merchant... it's just some events that happened in one gamers world. I guess you could twist it and say the merchant is the protagonist and the "PK'ers" are the antagonists... its a stretch though. I don't know or relate to any of these people nor do I care.
Very well put but problem is, since the huge success of WoW, no investor money is going into those kind of MMORPGs.
We just have to wait and see when/if this themepark MMORPG bubble bursts and what comes out of it.
My gaming blog
I dont get why people keep confusing a day in the life of a player, and a story. People like to trash themepark games, but if sandbox games are the ultimate salvation to the genre, why does every themepark game fail to hold any sort of competition to any of the themepark games out there, and more importantly, why arent you off playing them?
My Guild Wars 2 Vids
See, this seems boring as hell to me. It is just players running around killing each other in PvP. There is no story, there is nothing but PvP. The tamer business man is meaningless. The player town is meaningless. They are just PvP props. Features created to add grind to the game so players play a bit longer. Might as well play a FPS match because nothing makes any difference in a constant PvP fest game IMO.
That is why these games don't have many subs. It can be fun to skill up and buy or craft what you need. Get players together and go PvP for what ever reason you want to make up. But after you do this, it is just the same thing over and over again. So players get bored and quit. Only the dedicated stick around and wait for a new batch of gamers to try the game. And help them skill up and gear up to PvP. Rinse and repeat. No difference in this and the Raid grind really.
But that is the problem with the Themepark vs Sandbox argument. Everyone has their own idea of what is fun, so it is difficult to have all these people agree. So you just need to research the game you want to play. Ask for changes withing the given framework put down the by the devs. Then go play it. Not find the game you don't like and try to change it. But I guess that is just me.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Let me explain why *I* am excited, whether you want to make stupid claims about rails or otherwise.
KOTOR was simply amazing. It was absolutely engaging and immersive. It was soooooooooo on rails, it was rediculous. The amazing part, however, was that it didn't feel like it was on rails. It felt like I had choices that matter. It felt dynamic, even though I knew it was quite static.
So take all of that, and add to it all of the MMO aspects. The grouping, the questing, the pvp, the crafting, the multiple classes each with their own epic story arcs... And if you're not into "story", you can skip it almost completely and STILL level to max. Rather than feel like choice, you're actually getting it this time!
The point of MMO's is to provide entertainment and fun to those playing it, in an environment where there can be lots of other players. That's the main point. What you described is only one way to do it, one that you happen to like.
As MMO's around show, there are various paths for players to have fun in MMO's.
My experience is that Roleplayers manage to find entertainment and create immersive, entertaining stories with eachother no matter whether they're in a themepark or sandbox MMO.
But that's not the group that's being talked about here. When people in this thread talk about 'player stories', they mean their ingame daily experiences. Some people that require a sandbox type of environment to feel immersed are sort of 'inbetweeners': they lack the creativity or 'gift' that roleplayers have who manage to find their own player stories and deep RP no matter in what type of MMO world they're in, but also they can't find their 'player stories' in great experiences while raiding or pvping or other stuff in themepark styled MMO's like other non-RP gamers do. Inbetween.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Its a story of many people. Your imagining a story of a single hero, which again, is done quite well in single player games. Otherwise, there were protagonists and antagonists, depending on your viewpoint, and there was progression. The merchant was richer, the area more secure, the guild more renowned, etc.
Say you were the event/story scriptor. What kind of story would you devise for a tamer in an RPG. He slays the Lich King? Nope. He builds the largest and most powerful trader cartel? Sure, but that would much better devised spontaneously in a sandbox. The story might not be as traditional and surefire as most in single player games, but there is a lot more room for diversity and length of play when the community creates the stories, instead of simply waiting for the next dungeon treadmill content expansion.
Exactly, your right , everyone has their own idea what is fun. I come from the days of UO PKing hard core. Blood red as ever my character was. I've moved on from that life style cause these people don't seem to understand is someone has to lose. someone has to die and lose their stuff and start again. OooooOooing there way as they run back to town ... I usually portaled for them.
In order for that said scenario to happen. There has to be a gang of murders near the outside of town which their was in UO constantly killing players as they moved in and out of the city before any kind of protection would come. So with that said. While its fun to play the hero some of the times and try and protect these people. They still have to go out and die first and get pillaged and lose all their stuff before such a scenario can happen. So, if your willing to do these things go have fun in your sandbox fun. But keep in mind, someone will have to die, someone will have to lose their stuff, someone will have to constantly beg for help cause theres a red outside of town that won't leave em alone. But, your numbers will dwindle constantly cause newbies don't want to be bothered that early in the stage to where they feel like they need someone to help them just so they can try and enjoy the game. Without fear of being PKed, Ganked, or Killed that early in the game. And even if they clear those players out for that day.... Guess who showed up tomorrow.... same pks killing your local noobs and other rift raft so you solved nothing.
Only reason UO Thrived for as long as it did and it had its golden age is cause there was no other competition to compete with them until Everquest came out and other competators. Played from 1996 to 1999 7 time GM red on catskills.
THIS THIS THIS ^
It shocks me to hear RPers can't RP in a themepark game because their story is laid out already. So do the story, have fun, and create your own and overrite it. So what if your character saved the world, RP that you were just a soldier among many that joined forces to save the world or you were a traveling merchant who know hows to defend themselves, but did not save the world. Most players don't pay attention to the story anyways so should it matter what you tell them your story is?
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
Sure its only one way, I have 100s of spontaneous events I could've described instead. Its whatever you want it to be quite honestly, that's the point. A living, breathing fantasy world requires nothing less.
And the real world isn't boring my friend. We've all logged 10,000s of hours and some people take it very seriously. Something was done right with that game.
Shrug. You either get my point or you don't.
But I doubt whether people who're complaining consistently on sites like this that MMO's don't offer the narrow set of requirements that'll enable them to have fun in an MMO, to prevent them from being bored, suddenly will be these amazing creative and imaginative people who manage to not get bored irl with the things they do. I mean, if they can't even entertain themselves in a game or need a very specific set of requirements for that, why would it be different in their real lives? Sure, for some it might be different, but for others I bet that getting bored easily with games/MMO's means getting bored easily with a lot of their regular activities.
As for the rest, like I said, roleplayers manage to find their own player stories no matter what MMO they're in and these are often deeper and richer than what you'll find in the player stories of those who need a sandbox MMO to find their own player stories.
Also, a lot of themepark gamers have their own 'player stories' that have made an impression on them and provided deep excitement and entertainment. They're not limited to a sandbox environment for that, they didn't need that to find their player stories, they just gathered them while playing in the (themepark) MMO that they enjoyed.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What you are describing would sound wonderful if we were talking about a single player game where each individual player is supposed experience the same storyline based on their choices.
MMORPGs, however, have always been - above all - about players creating their own stories, experiencing their own adventures and events, developing their own memories... on their terms, within the context of the game.
Look at other MMOs that are even remotely "on rails"... people can't stand like all their own choices and decisions are for naught because a designer somewhere decided for them, before they even started playing, what their experiences would be.
People have been asking for MMOs to move away from the linear, forced and "on-rails" experience. Bioware seems to be jumping feet first into the deep end and going the complete opposite direction.
That said... will ToR provide entertainment for a lot of people? Sure. However, based on what I've read and seen... it's not going to feel at all like a true MMORPG, but more like a single player game with a large multiplayer lobby system in place.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
There actually few agents involved with PvP in my example. The merchant didn't have to PvP once, nor did any of the towns people, or many of the guild which managed the town, who simply hired mercenary guilds for most of the work. In a well designed sandbox, you will be able to find security in your chosen profession. So as an alchemist, tamer, thief, political leader, blacksmith, etc, you will be able to spend the large majority of the time doing want you want, and "productively." UO was poorly designed in the sense that many people wanted to do things that were fun, but unproductive, which ultimately resulted in everyone eventually becoming PKers, because that was the most effective way of playing, based on the game. These things could be corrected in future sandboxes.
Its quite different than a themepark, where you really are only one type of person, a jack of all trades, usually involving very few trades anyway. You couldn't be a tamer, or build a cartel, or be a successful alchemist or explorer in a themepark for many reasons. Their economies are too poorly designed, the environment offers very little other than killing monsters and all maps are already premade anyway. You can't really by a political leader since there isn't property ownership in most themeparks, etc. Alchemy in most games has predeterimined potions and recipes that you buy from NPCs, completely skipping the experimentation and trial and error period that would make the profession fun to begin with.
How can a game be repetitive when you can't predict the story? Exactly, that's why themeparks are repetitive. People can predict what they will experience in most of them these days anyway, they don't even bother with the latest triple AAA themeparks. I just gave one possible instance that could happen in a sandbox, out of thousands.
My favorite post in this thread!
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
And, this may be the chief MMO community issue to complain about when TOR comes out.
But, for my part, being "on rails' won't make TOR un-fun. It could still be a blast to play.
Will it be the greatest new MMO experience of a lifetime? No. Will it feel like a single player game with some large lobby areas? Yep. But, I still want to have fun with it!
Untrue. Most people who played it stated that SWTOR is very much an MMORPG, as much as other themepark MMORPG's with even more incentives to do stuff with other people together than in most AAA MMO's.
What's wrong with making the questing a better experience in an MMO, if you still also manage to make the other MMO features entertaining activities? You can enhance both solo oriented and group/guild oriented activities and features, an MMO company can do that, and it looks like BW is on the path to do both.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Quite possibly the largest multiplayer lobby in the world then. In fact I'd dare say the lobby itself would be larger than any MMO currently in existence. Not to mention the lobby will have multiplayer quests, open PvP, contested worlds, elite bosses and mobs, and exploration rewards. Yup. What a multiplayer lobby.
So here is the thing OP, I tend to agree with your generally feeling of Meh towards SWTOR, but I don't really understand the point in posts like yours. They've chosen the way they want to present the game, some will love it, many others will simply buy it because it is SW or because it is Bioware, but regardless of how you or I might feel about this approach we're not going to change it or change anyone's mind about it, not that we should be trying to, if others can enjoy the game what's wrong with it?
The only danger here is the same danger that WoW brought with it, a massive success tends to lead to immitation. The problem with immitation after a massive success is that it is done simply for profit and generally results in horrible games with no real clue as to what made the game they are immitating a success.
I understand what your are saying. But with all the current sandbox games, it all comes down to PvP. You may not have to take park as a crafter. But you craft to sell or trade to those who do PvP. It is just a personal mindset on my part that I can't get into a sanbox game for long.
I played Darkfall for about 2 months at launch and another with the NA launch. But after skilling up and helping to build a city with my guild. I just lost interest. The pollitics are not for me in a game. It is not what is fun for my style of play. Even though I did like the combat mechanics of Darkfall. MO just sucked and I could play for long at all.
The problem with sandbox games is the lack of a virtual world IMO. You can't be online 24/7 and there usually are not enough features to truly create the world that you would want to be in. So I am going the other direction with TOR and the story telling. I want a real class story based on the SW lore the BW will give me. They have 50 plus novels worth of just VO for the class stories. And all 8 stories will be very different. Even within the same class, the multiple story choices will allow you to have a different story as well as a different ending and even a different title.
It is not the same thing as player created drama. But IMO, it is much better than player politics and a pure PvP game with crafting and city building. Now if there are some sandbox features in the same game world, it would be even better. A hybrid is what would be best for everyone. And there will be at least some in TOR. But we won't know until the game is launched.
I don't think you are wrong about sanbox games and player experience stories. But it is just not for me anymore.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Another one of these posts? can we get a mod on here to just start removing them as they pop up? Hasnt this been said 100 time already in 100 differnent ways? if you arent interested, MOVE ALONG. Thanks for coming to the SWTOR forums! Im really tired fo these posts thou...
True. I think the 'social points' idea and the 'multiplayer conversation system' are great tools to enhance and encourage group play. So much so, I'd say it's safe to bet that WoW will include something similar soon after TOR releases.
Roller Coasters are on rails, and they're awesome.
Also, TOR isn't completely on rails, your decisions effect the outcome of your story. While you might start out with a similar story to others it will eventually drift apart until it's only similar in goals or even not at all, with light/dark alignment shifts taken into account.
We're going to have a lot more freedom of choice than some people believe, it'll just take a couple weeks of storyline to make those differences apparent and nobody was able to play that long yet.
Why am I excited? Good question, that answer has nothing at all to do with SWTOR or it's features, outside of the ability to guild and PVP.
I'm excited because a large chunk of the old school community from SWG I was a part of is anticipating the release of this game. SO many friends and enemies joining to continue our war we started long ago. That's what an MMO is about everything else is simply icing on the cake. You don't need to have a sandbox game to have a great community, maybe some of just have never been a part of one.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A very good question. I've never understood why sandbox players go onto themepark game forums just to complain about the direction of the game. There are sandbox games out there, go play them if sandboxes are really all that and a bag of chips.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
No, it's the day in the life of a player, using the game's mechanics. There is no reason to be saturated or involved in the series of events that transpired here. There is no draw, it's just playing the game the way its supposed to be played. Scripting, common world opponents, drama, and mutual involvement simply amplify scenarios like this. You can still do all of this if there is a scripted story involved, and with better player immersion.
How you get some kind of dynamic story out of this is beyond me, but I guess that's where we differ.