Indeed OP... Wheres those good old Lineage2 days... Where you had to put some effort to kill raids with hundred people and after killing it you get satisfaction that you done something. Fucking western developers... they ruin mmos and i hate instanced dungeons, fuck them...
So I was reading a news story on IGN about Rift's new patch and came across this little snippet:
"The main focus of the patch is the introduction of Rift's first "Sliver" -- a tear between planes that players can actually enter. This one, located in Shimmersand, will bring players to an alternate version of Telara (Rift's setting) which has been overrun by dudes from the Plane of Earth. It's a raid instance built for 10 players.".
And that's where I face-palmed. A raid of 10 players? Surely 10 players is just a slightly bigger group? What's next? Group content that's tailored for 2 players? Seriously, when did raids become little more than a slightly harder version of group content requiring one or two more people? Hell, I bet most full groups could do a 10 man raid.
I really think the developers are losing the plot on what the hell MMO's are about, most of them should really just go back to making single player games.
Actually if you had ever done a 10 man raid you would know that they are actually harder than the 25 mans.... f they are your level. Don't know about Rift though never played it but there are some guilds who have problems even finding 10 dependable people who actually show up these days that is another factor for making smaller raids. The longer time goes on the less dependable a lot of people are it seems. And then sometimes guilds have massive player loss due to people shutting off accounts and that affects them as well.
Anyway that is what I have witnessed in games that have 10 player raids. That and it seems a lot of people don't have what it takes to do bigger number raids for some reason and a lot of people just plain don't care enough to even learn how to play to be able to do anything more anymore.
After watching this thread since I posted it, I'm really starting to worry about the future of MMO's. If this is what the developers are trying to appeal to, I can't see myself ever returning to this genre, and that's sad. Quoting a few of the comments - find 40 people for a raid? Please. In EQ1 we had 80+ people every night and we were but one raid guild out of multiples on the server, of which there were multiple servers. Find 40 people? Seriously?
Isn't practical? This is the sort of thing I expect from a player raised on WoW style gameplay. An MMO you can solo most of your way through, a community that isn't needed until you need them, what do you expect? Do you really expect to get 40+ people in a game like that? This is exactly why modern raids are becoming 10 man versions, because people don't care about community, don't care about grouping, they want rewards, rewards, rewards. They force themselves through raids for the rewards, that's it. There is no other reason in modern MMOs.
As someone else said, few WoW players ever raid 40 man, or even 25 man. Why? Well, there's your answer.
Community, dependancy on other classes, a focus on grouping rather than soloing, these are the things that need to return before MMO's can really become something special. Until then, you're playing a single player game with multiplayer elements. Is that what you really want from an MMO?
After watching this thread since I posted it, I'm really starting to worry about the future of MMO's. If this is what the developers are trying to appeal to, I can't see myself ever returning to this genre, and that's sad.
having played MMO's for over 12 years, it's surprising that I still do have hope on the "back swing" of the development cycle. over years, taste and demand change and games are designed to satisfy that demand. even tho EQ/SoE has wrecked their product, there is hope in the demand being carried on in other games like EvE Online where LARGE scale battles are still being fought. Eventually, the "twitch" demand will dry up and the "tactical" large scale gaming will make a come back. it may not come back in the old "high fantacy" format, maybe it would be a sci fi theme this time, but the demand for the intrensic reward of large scale achiement is built into the basic human psyche otherwise we wouldn't have as many wars in the past centries. human psyche is violent in nature. it was what is required to climb to the top of the food chain. eventually, people will recognize the NEED for cooperation to achieve large things and the demand to statisfy that need will drive the developers to create the 2nd golden age of MMO's.
people were tired from the demands of 5 to 6 days a week raid schedules. now that they've had some time to rest in this post WoW generation, the demand will start picking up again and it may take another unknown/indi like what verant used to be to pick up the ball and run with it. who knows Trion may realize that demand and start developing content to statisfy that need in another 2 expansions or more?
After watching this thread since I posted it, I'm really starting to worry about the future of MMO's. If this is what the developers are trying to appeal to, I can't see myself ever returning to this genre, and that's sad. Quoting a few of the comments - find 40 people for a raid? Please. In EQ1 we had 80+ people every night and we were but one raid guild out of multiples on the server, of which there were multiple servers. Find 40 people? Seriously?
Isn't practical? This is the sort of thing I expect from a player raised on WoW style gameplay. An MMO you can solo most of your way through, a community that isn't needed until you need them, what do you expect? Do you really expect to get 40+ people in a game like that? This is exactly why modern raids are becoming 10 man versions, because people don't care about community, don't care about grouping, they want rewards, rewards, rewards. They force themselves through raids for the rewards, that's it. There is no other reason in modern MMOs.
As someone else said, few WoW players ever raid 40 man, or even 25 man. Why? Well, there's your answer.
Community, dependancy on other classes, a focus on grouping rather than soloing, these are the things that need to return before MMO's can really become something special. Until then, you're playing a single player game with multiplayer elements. Is that what you really want from an MMO?
I did all that huge raiding stuff back in EQ, was a PITA and basically just boiled down to getting a small army to agree to show up on time and memorize the sequence related to their class. Challenging? Sorry, I didn't find it challenging, I found it tedious and community? I envy you your experience there, for all of mine had enough drama behind it all to film a soap opera. Guilds merging, unmerging, husbands cheating on their wives with that DE cleric or some girl losing her BF to a cyber-tranny (yep, weirdness abounded there), arguing over loot and what not, community and dependancy on others? I won't presume what your play was like when it came to that, but mine and people I played with did nothing but gripe about that very element because people would fall asleep after spending 8 hours just getting the beginnings of the raid going.
I hit plane raids and vanilla wow 40 mans and they all became tedious very quickly with plenty of unpleasant drama to contend with. And yet it all was the same, regardless of size, you had stages where X happen and you did Y, it wasn't some grand mystical experience or a determination of rarified skill...it was rote memorization with lots of participants.
But here is the heart of the matter, there's a reason why developers strayed away from that design, and that is simply this:more people found it unappealing than found it appealing, and that = less $$$ Supply meets demand, and though I mean no slight to what you enjoy, the fact is my friend, the demand for what you enjoy doing isn't shared by most. And by most, I mean 90% plus of the demographic. Thus the supply will fall short and I point out with all due respect that the group you belong to simply doesn't warrant the effort on a publisher's part to cater to as it doesn't translate into their one reason for starting the whole thing in the first place.... cash.
You have a point about WoW having created a mentality that favors the satisfying of every players Id as opposed to community, but that too is the nature of modern society as well. Everyone wants bragging rights and cheddar without having to really earn it, people want everything for nothing because our culture has stressed and glorified taking advantage of something rather than earning it for quite a while now. Instead you got twits who talk trash and posture and strut about until harsh consequences give them a real life beat down, and now a days, even if they do get the beat down, the moment they think they can talk trash and still run away in time, they will do so. Thats what you're seeing reflected in online communities, the snot nosed twit mouthing off over anything he/she cares to inflict their opinion on you with. And putting 100 or so of that group together really isn't as much fun as herding cats.
Rather than huge raids, what I'd like to see is dynamic content, where servers each have differances based upon player activity, instances strictly for the development of the character so that those who want to solo up to a point can do so, then join the rest of the server when they want to have a impact on its character. Landscape and content that reacts to what players do, wars, peace treaties, etc. There was a game that attempted to do that in some form, Shadowbane but unfortunately it wasn't thought through as well as it needed to be. You want community? When people's actions affect the landscape and character of their game, you develop community, raids to some tucked out of the way location/access creates nothing more than virtual country club memberships with all the attitude and baggage their real life counterparts have.
So yeah, I belong to the sandbox crowd because that is a reflection of the human equation which is unpredictable and multihued. Taking out the Avatar of War or defeating the Sraesha Temple (not sure if I spelled that correctly) took effort, but it really doesn't compare to sandbox dynamics on that scale, and defeating a army of other players is much more intense and personal than defeating a programmed encounter, no matter how many hps it has....at least...it is for me. And yet that style of play will not come into existence either, because of the same reason yours has been left behind, we don't represent enough $$$, its something you just have to learn to accept and set aside the nostalgia or keep playing those games of times past with like minded people.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Standard servers. Solo, Group, and Raid content as usual. Small bonus for grouping expwise.
Group favored servers: Most solo monsters are easy group monsters. Easy group content is hard group content. Hard group content becomes small raid content, and raids become larger. Larger bonus for grouping expwise. Raids provide more exp than a standard server.
Solo favored servers: Easy group monsters become solo monsters. Harder group monsters become duo monsters. Raid content becomes doable by groups. Raids can not be formed. No bonus for grouping.
Rather than huge raids, what I'd like to see is dynamic content, where servers each have differances based upon player activity, instances strictly for the development of the character so that those who want to solo up to a point can do so, then join the rest of the server when they want to have a impact on its character. Landscape and content that reacts to what players do, wars, peace treaties, etc. There was a game that attempted to do that in some form, Shadowbane but unfortunately it wasn't thought through as well as it needed to be. You want community? When people's actions affect the landscape and character of their game, you develop community, raids to some tucked out of the way location/access creates nothing more than virtual country club memberships with all the attitude and baggage their real life counterparts have.
actually, I think Rift is actually TRYING to accomplish what you are describing if I understood you correctly.
it sounded like you definately hit the burnout wall early in your EQ time. planes raids were just the begining of their raid complexities and the need for real hardcore players to complete the raids. I definately hear you on the drama and waiting on clerics to show up for raids to start:D but I also know some guilds are more hardcore then others and the more casual guilds tend to have more drama of that nature. granted, the hardcore raid guilds definately argue more over loot:D but when it comes down to business, they are there giving their 100%. I guess it has alot to do with what kind of guilds you were in and how many people really enjoyed the raid aspect of the game.
the biggest mistake most MMO make is to try to cater to more people then they should. if you put 5 people in a room for 15min's, you are going to end up with 7 opinions on any given subject:D personally I think EQ should have stuck with what they did best and focused on the raid niche of the market. yah they wont make as much $, but they will still be growing as a game/company. now EQ is just dying of a slow death while games like EvE Online that focus on their particular niche continues to grow in popularity.
I guess it'd be a hard sell to the investers if you try to pitch a raid focused game, but if the game ever gets made, It will attract the hardcore masochistic raiders and gain enough fame that less hardcore players would also want to dip their feet in and see what the water is like. after all, a truely hardcore raid oriented game would really "require" the mature goal oriented type players. and those are the type of players most people actually looks towards for recommendation on what games to play because their personality tend to carry more weight then the 1337hax0rz. noob's...
I've never actually set foot in a raid, only watched them. So you'll have to explain a little better how this is a terrible thing. Seems to me that as more people get involved, the level of coordination among the group becomes far more important than individual player skill or gear, which ought to be the measure of the group's strength. It's inevitable because a larger group is going to be more random than a smaller group; you can't set the bar too high and you can't add too much complexity or else properly geared and properly prepared groups will fail due to uncontrollable randomness.
Wrong.
Raids with 40 people are done by dedicated guilds which will not be a random selection, but will actively seek out tanks, healers or whatever class they need to complete their raid force setup.
Also, they will work together through the raid content to make sure everyone has about the same gear quality.
unfortunately, the post WoW generation thinks that if you get 10 REALLY skilled people you can conqure the United States or go to the moon... I guess al queda just hasnt found the right 10 people yet:D nah you dont need a HUGE army to take on something difficult like going to the moon or something, you just need 10 really skilled people:D
Rather than huge raids, what I'd like to see is dynamic content, where servers each have differances based upon player activity, instances strictly for the development of the character so that those who want to solo up to a point can do so, then join the rest of the server when they want to have a impact on its character. Landscape and content that reacts to what players do, wars, peace treaties, etc. There was a game that attempted to do that in some form, Shadowbane but unfortunately it wasn't thought through as well as it needed to be. You want community? When people's actions affect the landscape and character of their game, you develop community, raids to some tucked out of the way location/access creates nothing more than virtual country club memberships with all the attitude and baggage their real life counterparts have.
actually, I think Rift is actually TRYING to accomplish what you are describing if I understood you correctly.
Hmm, off hand I can't really say one way or another about Rift, I read up on it some, but not enough to be very knowledible. My attempt to describe a dynamic content base game is more what falls under the convention of "Sandbox", where the framework by the developers is minimal and the rest is done by the players, similiar to how UO when it first came out, where you had certain base features, but the players made their own economy, towns, law system, etc.
it sounded like you definately hit the burnout wall early in your EQ time. planes raids were just the begining of their raid complexities and the need for real hardcore players to complete the raids. I definately hear you on the drama and waiting on clerics to show up for raids to start:D but I also know some guilds are more hardcore then others and the more casual guilds tend to have more drama of that nature. granted, the hardcore raid guilds definately argue more over loot:D but when it comes down to business, they are there giving their 100%. I guess it has alot to do with what kind of guilds you were in and how many people really enjoyed the raid aspect of the game.
Well, I had a account issue in SoV towards the end of that xpac's stay, which SOE handled very poorly. At the end of the investigation, though I was vindicated, they lost me as a customer for a good decade till I got lured back by DCUO. But you're right that I did burn out on raid content, but did so in WoW. By the time WotLK had run its course, I had grown extremely weary of stitching together raids and dealing with the drama, especially when it was just running repeatedible content, show up, follow instructions, gear and success happens. But that was asking too much, especially when they learned their raid leader was in his 40s, for some reason, that marked me as a failure to the 20 something crowd who seemed to think the internet was their toy and creation.
the biggest mistake most MMO make is to try to cater to more people then they should. if you put 5 people in a room for 15min's, you are going to end up with 7 opinions on any given subject:D personally I think EQ should have stuck with what they did best and focused on the raid niche of the market. yah they wont make as much $, but they will still be growing as a game/company. now EQ is just dying of a slow death while games like EvE Online that focus on their particular niche continues to grow in popularity.
Yes, I agree with you 100% there. Games should not try to be all things to all people, it'd be like trying to put every topping one can think of on a pizza ranging from anchovies, to pepperoni, tofu, peanut butter, bean sprouts, cashews, etc and expecting everyone to love it. WoW's model of business does this better than most admittedly and while I feel Blizz is a very successful business, it also does us as consumers a disservice. Design a game from the ground up to address either PvE or PvP interests, play balancing and content will naturally and appropriately relate to the focus of the game. Raiding for example, if a game is designed with that in mind, there will be very little solo content as it needs to condition players early on to group up tackle content as part of a team, and there will be features within the game from day one to form and coordinate such raids. Same thing with PvP oriented games or small group games (DDO comes to mind there) but basically, choose a focus and stay with it and fully support it from the first step till the very end.
I guess it'd be a hard sell to the investers if you try to pitch a raid focused game, but if the game ever gets made, It will attract the hardcore masochistic raiders and gain enough fame that less hardcore players would also want to dip their feet in and see what the water is like. after all, a truely hardcore raid oriented game would really "require" the mature goal oriented type players. and those are the type of players most people actually looks towards for recommendation on what games to play because their personality tend to carry more weight then the 1337hax0rz. noob's...
Unfortunately, everything comes down to money and investors are just as short in their patience as the gamers are acquiring loot when it comes to cashing in. If a studio could guarantee a 50% return on investment within one year of initial investment, and a sustained return of that or above for 3 years or more, money will flood the studio regardless of its niche. But that's typically not the return model, and the more "fringe" the market, the smaller the return rate and thus less funding there is. The cure for this issue is the same as the business I work in, which is the individual owner who has both love and money for whatever MMO genre he/she decides to pour themselves behind. Sadly, that sort of individual doesn't exist anymore, thanks to a number of modern evils which I'll spare readers a rant of going into.
I do however think that WoW's supremacy is at an end. It has made a number of small mistakes that are slowly adding up to a bigger loss, I won't go into that because that's not what this thread is about, but I will say that I think we're finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel of the WoW style dominance, and that means that different kinds of games will get a better chance than what they once did. What developers and studios have to realize though, they have to get it mostly right at launch, not 2 years into it, the field is too competitive now and pulling a typical premature release does far more harm to their investment these days. But regardless, and no slight to you or your interests intended, I also believe the day of such large raids are done and relegated to the pages of times past.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Comments
Indeed OP... Wheres those good old Lineage2 days... Where you had to put some effort to kill raids with hundred people and after killing it you get satisfaction that you done something. Fucking western developers... they ruin mmos and i hate instanced dungeons, fuck them...
Actually if you had ever done a 10 man raid you would know that they are actually harder than the 25 mans.... f they are your level. Don't know about Rift though never played it but there are some guilds who have problems even finding 10 dependable people who actually show up these days that is another factor for making smaller raids. The longer time goes on the less dependable a lot of people are it seems. And then sometimes guilds have massive player loss due to people shutting off accounts and that affects them as well.
Anyway that is what I have witnessed in games that have 10 player raids. That and it seems a lot of people don't have what it takes to do bigger number raids for some reason and a lot of people just plain don't care enough to even learn how to play to be able to do anything more anymore.
After watching this thread since I posted it, I'm really starting to worry about the future of MMO's. If this is what the developers are trying to appeal to, I can't see myself ever returning to this genre, and that's sad. Quoting a few of the comments - find 40 people for a raid? Please. In EQ1 we had 80+ people every night and we were but one raid guild out of multiples on the server, of which there were multiple servers. Find 40 people? Seriously?
Isn't practical? This is the sort of thing I expect from a player raised on WoW style gameplay. An MMO you can solo most of your way through, a community that isn't needed until you need them, what do you expect? Do you really expect to get 40+ people in a game like that? This is exactly why modern raids are becoming 10 man versions, because people don't care about community, don't care about grouping, they want rewards, rewards, rewards. They force themselves through raids for the rewards, that's it. There is no other reason in modern MMOs.
As someone else said, few WoW players ever raid 40 man, or even 25 man. Why? Well, there's your answer.
Community, dependancy on other classes, a focus on grouping rather than soloing, these are the things that need to return before MMO's can really become something special. Until then, you're playing a single player game with multiplayer elements. Is that what you really want from an MMO?
having played MMO's for over 12 years, it's surprising that I still do have hope on the "back swing" of the development cycle. over years, taste and demand change and games are designed to satisfy that demand. even tho EQ/SoE has wrecked their product, there is hope in the demand being carried on in other games like EvE Online where LARGE scale battles are still being fought. Eventually, the "twitch" demand will dry up and the "tactical" large scale gaming will make a come back. it may not come back in the old "high fantacy" format, maybe it would be a sci fi theme this time, but the demand for the intrensic reward of large scale achiement is built into the basic human psyche otherwise we wouldn't have as many wars in the past centries. human psyche is violent in nature. it was what is required to climb to the top of the food chain. eventually, people will recognize the NEED for cooperation to achieve large things and the demand to statisfy that need will drive the developers to create the 2nd golden age of MMO's.
people were tired from the demands of 5 to 6 days a week raid schedules. now that they've had some time to rest in this post WoW generation, the demand will start picking up again and it may take another unknown/indi like what verant used to be to pick up the ball and run with it. who knows Trion may realize that demand and start developing content to statisfy that need in another 2 expansions or more?
I did all that huge raiding stuff back in EQ, was a PITA and basically just boiled down to getting a small army to agree to show up on time and memorize the sequence related to their class. Challenging? Sorry, I didn't find it challenging, I found it tedious and community? I envy you your experience there, for all of mine had enough drama behind it all to film a soap opera. Guilds merging, unmerging, husbands cheating on their wives with that DE cleric or some girl losing her BF to a cyber-tranny (yep, weirdness abounded there), arguing over loot and what not, community and dependancy on others? I won't presume what your play was like when it came to that, but mine and people I played with did nothing but gripe about that very element because people would fall asleep after spending 8 hours just getting the beginnings of the raid going.
I hit plane raids and vanilla wow 40 mans and they all became tedious very quickly with plenty of unpleasant drama to contend with. And yet it all was the same, regardless of size, you had stages where X happen and you did Y, it wasn't some grand mystical experience or a determination of rarified skill...it was rote memorization with lots of participants.
But here is the heart of the matter, there's a reason why developers strayed away from that design, and that is simply this:more people found it unappealing than found it appealing, and that = less $$$ Supply meets demand, and though I mean no slight to what you enjoy, the fact is my friend, the demand for what you enjoy doing isn't shared by most. And by most, I mean 90% plus of the demographic. Thus the supply will fall short and I point out with all due respect that the group you belong to simply doesn't warrant the effort on a publisher's part to cater to as it doesn't translate into their one reason for starting the whole thing in the first place.... cash.
You have a point about WoW having created a mentality that favors the satisfying of every players Id as opposed to community, but that too is the nature of modern society as well. Everyone wants bragging rights and cheddar without having to really earn it, people want everything for nothing because our culture has stressed and glorified taking advantage of something rather than earning it for quite a while now. Instead you got twits who talk trash and posture and strut about until harsh consequences give them a real life beat down, and now a days, even if they do get the beat down, the moment they think they can talk trash and still run away in time, they will do so. Thats what you're seeing reflected in online communities, the snot nosed twit mouthing off over anything he/she cares to inflict their opinion on you with. And putting 100 or so of that group together really isn't as much fun as herding cats.
Rather than huge raids, what I'd like to see is dynamic content, where servers each have differances based upon player activity, instances strictly for the development of the character so that those who want to solo up to a point can do so, then join the rest of the server when they want to have a impact on its character. Landscape and content that reacts to what players do, wars, peace treaties, etc. There was a game that attempted to do that in some form, Shadowbane but unfortunately it wasn't thought through as well as it needed to be. You want community? When people's actions affect the landscape and character of their game, you develop community, raids to some tucked out of the way location/access creates nothing more than virtual country club memberships with all the attitude and baggage their real life counterparts have.
So yeah, I belong to the sandbox crowd because that is a reflection of the human equation which is unpredictable and multihued. Taking out the Avatar of War or defeating the Sraesha Temple (not sure if I spelled that correctly) took effort, but it really doesn't compare to sandbox dynamics on that scale, and defeating a army of other players is much more intense and personal than defeating a programmed encounter, no matter how many hps it has....at least...it is for me. And yet that style of play will not come into existence either, because of the same reason yours has been left behind, we don't represent enough $$$, its something you just have to learn to accept and set aside the nostalgia or keep playing those games of times past with like minded people.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
It is kind of simple actually:
Standard servers. Solo, Group, and Raid content as usual. Small bonus for grouping expwise.
Group favored servers: Most solo monsters are easy group monsters. Easy group content is hard group content. Hard group content becomes small raid content, and raids become larger. Larger bonus for grouping expwise. Raids provide more exp than a standard server.
Solo favored servers: Easy group monsters become solo monsters. Harder group monsters become duo monsters. Raid content becomes doable by groups. Raids can not be formed. No bonus for grouping.
actually, I think Rift is actually TRYING to accomplish what you are describing if I understood you correctly.
it sounded like you definately hit the burnout wall early in your EQ time. planes raids were just the begining of their raid complexities and the need for real hardcore players to complete the raids. I definately hear you on the drama and waiting on clerics to show up for raids to start:D but I also know some guilds are more hardcore then others and the more casual guilds tend to have more drama of that nature. granted, the hardcore raid guilds definately argue more over loot:D but when it comes down to business, they are there giving their 100%. I guess it has alot to do with what kind of guilds you were in and how many people really enjoyed the raid aspect of the game.
the biggest mistake most MMO make is to try to cater to more people then they should. if you put 5 people in a room for 15min's, you are going to end up with 7 opinions on any given subject:D personally I think EQ should have stuck with what they did best and focused on the raid niche of the market. yah they wont make as much $, but they will still be growing as a game/company. now EQ is just dying of a slow death while games like EvE Online that focus on their particular niche continues to grow in popularity.
I guess it'd be a hard sell to the investers if you try to pitch a raid focused game, but if the game ever gets made, It will attract the hardcore masochistic raiders and gain enough fame that less hardcore players would also want to dip their feet in and see what the water is like. after all, a truely hardcore raid oriented game would really "require" the mature goal oriented type players. and those are the type of players most people actually looks towards for recommendation on what games to play because their personality tend to carry more weight then the 1337hax0rz. noob's...
HAHAHAHAHAHA LOL !!!!
Just 10 people being a "raid" !!!
HAHAHAHAHA !!!!
ROTFL
Thats just comedy gold.
Wrong.
Raids with 40 people are done by dedicated guilds which will not be a random selection, but will actively seek out tanks, healers or whatever class they need to complete their raid force setup.
Also, they will work together through the raid content to make sure everyone has about the same gear quality.
unfortunately, the post WoW generation thinks that if you get 10 REALLY skilled people you can conqure the United States or go to the moon... I guess al queda just hasnt found the right 10 people yet:D nah you dont need a HUGE army to take on something difficult like going to the moon or something, you just need 10 really skilled people:D
How about 15 people? 20? 30? 40?
Where do you draw the line?
If you think 35 and Rift offers 34 man 'raids', it isn't a raid in your eyes?
I must have missed the MMORPG dictionary that defines what a 'raid' is. /sarcasm
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
OP, if the word "raid" annoys you, just use the word group and play and enjoy the game for what it offers ... or not
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.