To properly play many classes in WoW you needed 20+ keys for PvP, it was really a bit too much and you ended up using macros and add ons just to keep it under control. I think something a little simpler is probably better though I did think GW1 was too simplistic, GW2 looks to have a bit more to it though.
Maybe I got spoilt on eq2 then as you don't need to use your keyboard at all.I have access to all my abilities all the time as long as they arn't on cooldown.With thier 100% UI customization you can have as many hotbars and scale them to whatever size you want,this way you just click on the relevant icon.I just used my keyboard arrow keys for movement and mouse.
Oh you don't need to use the keyboard in any MMO, just if you PvP and you click the buttons you probably aren't as good at it as you could be since clicking is significantly slower than using shortcut keys.
Maybe I got spoilt on eq2 then as you don't need to use your keyboard at all.I have access to all my abilities all the time as long as they arn't on cooldown.With thier 100% UI customization you can have as many hotbars and scale them to whatever size you want,this way you just click on the relevant icon.I just used my keyboard arrow keys for movement and mouse.
Putting a cap on the number of skills you can have out at one time makes combat a little bit more complicated. What if you selected the wrong combination? What if your skill does not complement your teammates? (Guild Wars 1 related: should you take that rez skill, or would you be better off taking more damage or defense?) Whatever you sacrifice, you need to rely on your teammates to make up. ArenaNet has simplified it a bit in Guild Wars 2, much to the disappointment of many guild wars players. But, if it prevents another build wars, then I'm good.
When I say "simplified", I'm saying simplified relative to guild warrs 1. Guild Wars 1's skill system was very complex. One wrong skill and your build could be screwed. With the weapons system, and the mandatory elite and heal, they hope to help new players be semi competent. They still won't be as good as players who know the in's and outs of the system.
More buttons to push does not = combat complexity. Confusion maybe though, depending on the person.
I disagree,having more abilities and knowing when to use them and where can only make combat more complex.You can tell better players because they read what thier abilities do and work out which order to use them depending on the mob/situation.
When I say "simplified", I'm saying simplified relative to guild warrs 1. Guild Wars 1's skill system was very complex. One wrong skill and your build could be screwed
Well you are really talking about a different subject though. You are talking about builds, not the actual use of your skills as much. Coming up with builds that augment your allies builds is very complex in guild wars but actually using your abilities to their highest potential isn't as complex as a lot of other games imo at least.
More buttons to push does not = combat complexity. Confusion maybe though, depending on the person.
I disagree,having more abilities and knowing when to use them and where can only make combat more complex.You can tell better players because they read what thier abilities do and work out which order to use them depending on the mob/situation.
Hmm, we are talking about many skills to select from but fewer you can have in the same build against fewer selection but more skills in the build, at least at launch.
Right now the complexity will rather close, I think it might be slightly higher in GW2 but as time passes they will add more skills to it and that will increase the complexity and add many interesting builds.
The real question however is which system that is most fun and I need a few days in GW2 to be able to judge that even if GW2 sounds better in theory.
The real question however is which system that is most fun and I need a few days in GW2 to be able to judge that even if GW2 sounds better in theory.
Yeah, you have to get past the initial 'Argh, must retrain my body to accept this as normal' period, then the 'sweetheart/honeymoon' period where it's new and you're comfortable with it, and it's fun.
To the point where you're just USED to it, and you can determine if it's good or bad properly.
Personally, can't prove if it'll be fun or not, but I have to say, I think it feels really elegant. The way single key presses can do multiple things is pretty awesome to me.
I disagree,having more abilities and knowing when to use them and where can only make combat more complex.You can tell better players because they read what thier abilities do and work out which order to use them depending on the mob/situation.
Quite frankly I find having large amount of skills on display to be qutite overwhelming at times and it can be quite difficult to keep track of every single skill and it's uses. Especially with my Lore Master in LOTRO, which has a skill that instantly regens most of my health but because it has a 10 min cooldown I almost never use it. But during emergencies when I should use it, I end up sometimes forgeting that I have this instant "emergency button", on my LM and end up dying because of it. Just look at this screen shot and tell me that this skill lay out is better than Guild Wars 2's.
*Keep in mind that this is a level 32 Lore Master & level 65 one would have much more skills.
To me this skill system is no good in an mmo and will kill this game for many players.I feel it is aimed at the casual gamer so that its easy to play and takes away from the skill of learning many abilities of a class.I don't buy into the 'well you pick your skills for the situation' rubbish.If you know how to do something you know how to do it.Playing a class should be an art not clicking on 5-10 buttons,less buttons=more button bashing.
All in all though I guess by being B2P does = casual gaming so it will be worth buying just for a change from the subscription game I play at the time.Just my personal thoughts on the matter I don't mean to offend anyone
I don't agree at all. And most MMOs allow you to get some skills by putting points in the right tree.
It is a lot more casual when everyone get the same set of skills. If you ever done some PvP in the original GW you would see that it is far from casual. There you both need to make a good build and be able to play it, that is harder than getting the same as everyone else.
Also you don't know what to expect from an oponent, I got some nasty surprises in GW.
I want to decide what skills my characters have so I can make the best build for my own style.
And GW1 have only 8 skills, still I think a lot more what to press than in EQ2 (which I played for over 4 years BTW). In EQ2 and similar games you just can press your fastkeys in the same order all the time and do pretty fine, at least if you do DPS.
EQ was not a casual game but almost all MMOs out there today are it now. I don't see how running DEs would be less casual than soloing EQ2.
And particularly my Swashie but also to a lesser degree my Dirge have loads of pointless skills I never ever use anyways.
Choices are not bad and ANETs system allows you to pick skills from a ever incrising list.
More buttons to push does not = combat complexity. Confusion maybe though, depending on the person.
I disagree,having more abilities and knowing when to use them and where can only make combat more complex.You can tell better players because they read what thier abilities do and work out which order to use them depending on the mob/situation.
Nah, it just makes combat more convoluted. Complexity has be accomplished with the implementation of timing and positioning and also using your enviroment to your advantage along with your skills would create incredible complexity to combat i.e causing a rock slide or cutting a tree and lighting it on fire to cross an opponents path. This is of course still aways off, but its good to dream.
In my opinion, fighting a Dragon in EQ1 which had far less abilties and fighting a dragon in a current game which has usually around more than 24 abilities, both had about the same level of difficulty. Adding all those abilities didn't make the fights any more difficult, it just made filling out your combat bar more bothersome.
Of course, this is just my opinion. I don't find more options a challenge. I find executing a complex strategy through the use of my skills more of a challenge. Hopefully I will see in my lifetime a game where you can do a major battle and there are 20 different ways to use the world around you to assist you in a battle and you opponent can do the same. Not some silly script that always plays out the same every single fight.
Nah, it just makes combat more convoluted. Complexity has be accomplished with the implementation of timing and positioning and also using your enviroment to your advantage along with your skills would create incredible complexity to combat i.e causing a rock slide or cutting a tree and lighting it on fire to cross an opponents path. This is of course still aways off, but its good to dream.
In my opinion, fighting a Dragon in EQ1 which had far less abilties and fighting a dragon in a current game which has usually around more than 24 abilities, both had about the same level of difficulty. Adding all those abilities didn't make the fights any more difficult, it just made filling out your combat bar more bothersome.
Of course, this is just my opinion. I don't find more options a challenge. I find executing a complex strategy through the use of my skills more of a challenge. Hopefully I will see in my lifetime a game where you can do a major battle and there are 20 different ways to use the world around you to assist you in a battle and you opponent can do the same. Not some silly script that always plays out the same every single fight.
Agreed.
And you also have to add GW2s active dodge and the fact that you can move and fight at the same time, that might make GW2s combat a lot more advanced than any other game out there, those thief gameplay vids did not look like cookie cutter combat at all.
Well, if you only have 5-10 significant moves, you really have to use more strategy with what moves you use. Ever pvp in other games? I'll use WoW as an example because it's well known.
You pvp in WoW with your tons of different moves, and you have one more that makes you unique and special, like a paladin's 6 second stun. This becomes "unbalanced" in pvp, so the devs decide "Let's give everyone else a stun!". This process is repeated multiple times, and eventually the only difference between the classes is the color of their icons. Limiting the amount of moves you can use eliminates this.
You see, by giving the player a "pool" of moves to choose from, and giving him the choice to choose what he wants, players can no longer cry "This situation is unfair!", because the devs can simply say "Well, you had a way to avoid the situation, you just chose not to bring it." This is a borderline genius--well, let's just call it simply genius-- way of balancing a pvp game.
For your argument that it's an "art", well this is a different kind of art. This time you customize your playstyle and play your class in symetry with the moves you choose. Your class will still play a certan way, but you can truly master it with your combination of weapons, moves, and positioning (which is another skill factor that above posters have mentioned).
All in all, if you're worried about this game taking no skill, I'm proud to inform you that you'll be sadly mistaken.
I'm trying to think of an mmo that requires skill, and the one I always come back to that I remember best is DAOC. WOW never struck me as very skill-based. Generally it came down to who was the higher lvl and who had the best gear. The only character in WOW that required any real skill was the warrior, and even that I found to be more about gear than anything. With DAOC, what made the combat great were a multitude of things. First, they also had positional combat just like GW2 seems to plan to have. You could stun the enemy and then hit them from the side for a positional attack. They also had chains - where you would have an ability that required that you do another attack before it. I remember many times in pvp strafing and positioning to try and get off a positional attack for greater damage. You had to be facing your opponent for your shield to work - if they got behind u blocking would not work.
Just in general, I always found daoc to be the most strategic mmo I've played as far as fighting is concerned. I definitely love fps fantasy games and I would love to have something like that in GW2. In general, I've found I like fps a lot more than target and kill stuff. It adds a whole new element to the gameplay, and changes a game from a static back and forth one to a game that requires skill and positioning and movement. The number of skills isn't important. The skill needed to use those skills effectively and the unique combos that can be made using those skills is the important part. Also, being forced to actually land your skill and not just have it auto hit is really great. I am glad a mmo is finally coming out with something which will have worthwhile combat for once.
WOW never struck me as very skill-based. Generally it came down to who was the higher lvl and who had the best gear. The only character in WOW that required any real skill was the warrior, and even that I found to be more about gear than anything
I take it you didn't really PvP in WoW? The skill cap in WoW PvP is very high but you are correct, you have to get over the gear hump first which is one of the things I didn't like about it at all. That is the first thing a lot of PvP games do wrong, they create a gear difference which ruins PvP.
More buttons to push does not = combat complexity. Confusion maybe though, depending on the person.
I disagree,having more abilities and knowing when to use them and where can only make combat more complex.You can tell better players because they read what thier abilities do and work out which order to use them depending on the mob/situation.
no. if you have too many buttons to push, it usually means that the game is filled with skills with overlapping and redundant functions (or the skills are ridiculously situational, which is not make things more complex, it just makes it more tedious). the more time you spend pressing buttons, the less time you have to spend moving around and reacting to your environment... which isnt really a problem in old fashioned mmorpgs because all you have to do really is stay in one spot, tank and spank, and dont stand in the fire.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Personaly, I like both the GW and GW2 systems. Its nice be able to choose your skills, like building a deck of cards. In the surface this kind of system seems aimed at casuals, but in reality it is perfect for hardcore players. I am an elementalist...ok, but do you know which skills I have in my hotbar? it makes PvP even harder because of the surprise factor....specialy if you are clever enough to figure out a unique build for yourself. Its great.
Yes,lets hope your right and in group combat the tank dosn't hold aggro while pressing 5 buttons while all the other group stands around pressing thier 5 buttons.
I LOLed at this. In WoW my main abilities consisted about 5-6 abilities really used. There was a lot of "situational" abilities and bout 3/4 of my toolbar was rarely used. At first I shared your concerns but after really comparing I found that the amount of skills were relatively the same and the fear completely unfounded, especially when you factored in the weapon swap.
I can't speak for wow because I lasted around 4 hours there but in EQ2 playing an assassin at least requires positional movement and you can't just keep clicking buttons you need to time temporary buffs and aa percs (in raiding at least)if you want to maximize your dps.
I guess I just can't get over the whole pick your skills before adventuring thing.Time will tell after i play it.You can't really complain to much i guess for a B2P mmorpg after all the crap thats been released over the last 5 years i am sceptical
no. if you have too many buttons to push, it usually means that the game is filled with skills with overlapping and redundant functions (or the skills are ridiculously situational, which is not make things more complex, it just makes it more tedious).
Keep in mind there is also profession combos, two professions meshing together for added effects that would bring skills up to a whole new level....potentionally. Sounds great on paper but will have to wait and see how is goes live
To me this skill system is no good in an mmo and will kill this game for many players.I feel it is aimed at the casual gamer so that its easy to play and takes away from the skill of learning many abilities of a class.I don't buy into the 'well you pick your skills for the situation' rubbish.If you know how to do something you know how to do it.Playing a class should be an art not clicking on 5-10 buttons,less buttons=more button bashing.
All in all though I guess by being B2P does = casual gaming so it will be worth buying just for a change from the subscription game I play at the time.Just my personal thoughts on the matter I don't mean to offend anyone
Obviously you haven´t played the original Guild Wars.....
In GW you only had a 8 slot action bar...and let me tell you it required amazing skill to used the builds poperly....
Comments
And this is why you should take 5min to make a search before hitting the new thread button.
Noted:),at least it gave you something to bitch about
To properly play many classes in WoW you needed 20+ keys for PvP, it was really a bit too much and you ended up using macros and add ons just to keep it under control. I think something a little simpler is probably better though I did think GW1 was too simplistic, GW2 looks to have a bit more to it though.
Maybe I got spoilt on eq2 then as you don't need to use your keyboard at all.I have access to all my abilities all the time as long as they arn't on cooldown.With thier 100% UI customization you can have as many hotbars and scale them to whatever size you want,this way you just click on the relevant icon.I just used my keyboard arrow keys for movement and mouse.
More buttons to push does not = combat complexity. Confusion maybe though, depending on the person.
Oh you don't need to use the keyboard in any MMO, just if you PvP and you click the buttons you probably aren't as good at it as you could be since clicking is significantly slower than using shortcut keys.
Putting a cap on the number of skills you can have out at one time makes combat a little bit more complicated. What if you selected the wrong combination? What if your skill does not complement your teammates? (Guild Wars 1 related: should you take that rez skill, or would you be better off taking more damage or defense?) Whatever you sacrifice, you need to rely on your teammates to make up. ArenaNet has simplified it a bit in Guild Wars 2, much to the disappointment of many guild wars players. But, if it prevents another build wars, then I'm good.
When I say "simplified", I'm saying simplified relative to guild warrs 1. Guild Wars 1's skill system was very complex. One wrong skill and your build could be screwed. With the weapons system, and the mandatory elite and heal, they hope to help new players be semi competent. They still won't be as good as players who know the in's and outs of the system.
I disagree,having more abilities and knowing when to use them and where can only make combat more complex.You can tell better players because they read what thier abilities do and work out which order to use them depending on the mob/situation.
Well you are really talking about a different subject though. You are talking about builds, not the actual use of your skills as much. Coming up with builds that augment your allies builds is very complex in guild wars but actually using your abilities to their highest potential isn't as complex as a lot of other games imo at least.
Hmm, we are talking about many skills to select from but fewer you can have in the same build against fewer selection but more skills in the build, at least at launch.
Right now the complexity will rather close, I think it might be slightly higher in GW2 but as time passes they will add more skills to it and that will increase the complexity and add many interesting builds.
The real question however is which system that is most fun and I need a few days in GW2 to be able to judge that even if GW2 sounds better in theory.
Yeah, you have to get past the initial 'Argh, must retrain my body to accept this as normal' period, then the 'sweetheart/honeymoon' period where it's new and you're comfortable with it, and it's fun.
To the point where you're just USED to it, and you can determine if it's good or bad properly.
Personally, can't prove if it'll be fun or not, but I have to say, I think it feels really elegant.
The way single key presses can do multiple things is pretty awesome to me.
Quite frankly I find having large amount of skills on display to be qutite overwhelming at times and it can be quite difficult to keep track of every single skill and it's uses. Especially with my Lore Master in LOTRO, which has a skill that instantly regens most of my health but because it has a 10 min cooldown I almost never use it. But during emergencies when I should use it, I end up sometimes forgeting that I have this instant "emergency button", on my LM and end up dying because of it. Just look at this screen shot and tell me that this skill lay out is better than Guild Wars 2's.
*Keep in mind that this is a level 32 Lore Master & level 65 one would have much more skills.
I don't agree at all. And most MMOs allow you to get some skills by putting points in the right tree.
It is a lot more casual when everyone get the same set of skills. If you ever done some PvP in the original GW you would see that it is far from casual. There you both need to make a good build and be able to play it, that is harder than getting the same as everyone else.
Also you don't know what to expect from an oponent, I got some nasty surprises in GW.
I want to decide what skills my characters have so I can make the best build for my own style.
And GW1 have only 8 skills, still I think a lot more what to press than in EQ2 (which I played for over 4 years BTW). In EQ2 and similar games you just can press your fastkeys in the same order all the time and do pretty fine, at least if you do DPS.
EQ was not a casual game but almost all MMOs out there today are it now. I don't see how running DEs would be less casual than soloing EQ2.
And particularly my Swashie but also to a lesser degree my Dirge have loads of pointless skills I never ever use anyways.
Choices are not bad and ANETs system allows you to pick skills from a ever incrising list.
Nah, it just makes combat more convoluted. Complexity has be accomplished with the implementation of timing and positioning and also using your enviroment to your advantage along with your skills would create incredible complexity to combat i.e causing a rock slide or cutting a tree and lighting it on fire to cross an opponents path. This is of course still aways off, but its good to dream.
In my opinion, fighting a Dragon in EQ1 which had far less abilties and fighting a dragon in a current game which has usually around more than 24 abilities, both had about the same level of difficulty. Adding all those abilities didn't make the fights any more difficult, it just made filling out your combat bar more bothersome.
Of course, this is just my opinion. I don't find more options a challenge. I find executing a complex strategy through the use of my skills more of a challenge. Hopefully I will see in my lifetime a game where you can do a major battle and there are 20 different ways to use the world around you to assist you in a battle and you opponent can do the same. Not some silly script that always plays out the same every single fight.
Agreed.
And you also have to add GW2s active dodge and the fact that you can move and fight at the same time, that might make GW2s combat a lot more advanced than any other game out there, those thief gameplay vids did not look like cookie cutter combat at all.
Well, if you only have 5-10 significant moves, you really have to use more strategy with what moves you use. Ever pvp in other games? I'll use WoW as an example because it's well known.
You pvp in WoW with your tons of different moves, and you have one more that makes you unique and special, like a paladin's 6 second stun. This becomes "unbalanced" in pvp, so the devs decide "Let's give everyone else a stun!". This process is repeated multiple times, and eventually the only difference between the classes is the color of their icons. Limiting the amount of moves you can use eliminates this.
You see, by giving the player a "pool" of moves to choose from, and giving him the choice to choose what he wants, players can no longer cry "This situation is unfair!", because the devs can simply say "Well, you had a way to avoid the situation, you just chose not to bring it." This is a borderline genius--well, let's just call it simply genius-- way of balancing a pvp game.
For your argument that it's an "art", well this is a different kind of art. This time you customize your playstyle and play your class in symetry with the moves you choose. Your class will still play a certan way, but you can truly master it with your combination of weapons, moves, and positioning (which is another skill factor that above posters have mentioned).
All in all, if you're worried about this game taking no skill, I'm proud to inform you that you'll be sadly mistaken.
I'm trying to think of an mmo that requires skill, and the one I always come back to that I remember best is DAOC. WOW never struck me as very skill-based. Generally it came down to who was the higher lvl and who had the best gear. The only character in WOW that required any real skill was the warrior, and even that I found to be more about gear than anything. With DAOC, what made the combat great were a multitude of things. First, they also had positional combat just like GW2 seems to plan to have. You could stun the enemy and then hit them from the side for a positional attack. They also had chains - where you would have an ability that required that you do another attack before it. I remember many times in pvp strafing and positioning to try and get off a positional attack for greater damage. You had to be facing your opponent for your shield to work - if they got behind u blocking would not work.
Just in general, I always found daoc to be the most strategic mmo I've played as far as fighting is concerned. I definitely love fps fantasy games and I would love to have something like that in GW2. In general, I've found I like fps a lot more than target and kill stuff. It adds a whole new element to the gameplay, and changes a game from a static back and forth one to a game that requires skill and positioning and movement. The number of skills isn't important. The skill needed to use those skills effectively and the unique combos that can be made using those skills is the important part. Also, being forced to actually land your skill and not just have it auto hit is really great. I am glad a mmo is finally coming out with something which will have worthwhile combat for once.
I take it you didn't really PvP in WoW? The skill cap in WoW PvP is very high but you are correct, you have to get over the gear hump first which is one of the things I didn't like about it at all. That is the first thing a lot of PvP games do wrong, they create a gear difference which ruins PvP.
no. if you have too many buttons to push, it usually means that the game is filled with skills with overlapping and redundant functions (or the skills are ridiculously situational, which is not make things more complex, it just makes it more tedious). the more time you spend pressing buttons, the less time you have to spend moving around and reacting to your environment... which isnt really a problem in old fashioned mmorpgs because all you have to do really is stay in one spot, tank and spank, and dont stand in the fire.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Personaly, I like both the GW and GW2 systems. Its nice be able to choose your skills, like building a deck of cards. In the surface this kind of system seems aimed at casuals, but in reality it is perfect for hardcore players. I am an elementalist...ok, but do you know which skills I have in my hotbar? it makes PvP even harder because of the surprise factor....specialy if you are clever enough to figure out a unique build for yourself. Its great.
I LOLed at this. In WoW my main abilities consisted about 5-6 abilities really used. There was a lot of "situational" abilities and bout 3/4 of my toolbar was rarely used. At first I shared your concerns but after really comparing I found that the amount of skills were relatively the same and the fear completely unfounded, especially when you factored in the weapon swap.
I can't speak for wow because I lasted around 4 hours there but in EQ2 playing an assassin at least requires positional movement and you can't just keep clicking buttons you need to time temporary buffs and aa percs (in raiding at least)if you want to maximize your dps.
I guess I just can't get over the whole pick your skills before adventuring thing.Time will tell after i play it.You can't really complain to much i guess for a B2P mmorpg after all the crap thats been released over the last 5 years i am sceptical
I hope GW2 saves mmo's!
no. if you have too many buttons to push, it usually means that the game is filled with skills with overlapping and redundant functions (or the skills are ridiculously situational, which is not make things more complex, it just makes it more tedious).
This is a matter of opinion Gessekai.
Keep in mind there is also profession combos, two professions meshing together for added effects that would bring skills up to a whole new level....potentionally. Sounds great on paper but will have to wait and see how is goes live
Obviously you haven´t played the original Guild Wars.....
In GW you only had a 8 slot action bar...and let me tell you it required amazing skill to used the builds poperly....