this is depressing... i really miss back in the days when i could not wait to get off work to play my game with huge guilds and friend list oh oh oh and those dragons that killed 40 people if one of them healers forget to heal the tank... oh good times good times...
the problem is with more choices out comes less time to spend and forge bonds with the comunity right now i am waitng for Old republic and hope that i can get the time and luck to meet good people but the MMO players are outt there they just playing way to many games...
The problem is, it doesn't matter if there are a lot of people playing MMORPGs or not. You are going to be playing alone most of the time in these games. Take Rift as an example I am always excited to try new games to play with partners/friends. But recent games just don't give you a content for 2-3 players. It is either 1 player (too easy for 1 too) or a dungeon. So, since dungeons start at later teens in most games you end up soloing everything your first few days/week. Boring and it does feel lonely.
Why would I want to susrcibe to an MMORPG with my friends when we're not going to play together 90% of the time. Why don't we get hard outdoor and indoor encouters suited for 2, 3 or even 4 players? I just don't get it.
The reason why we get bored is lack of freedom and lack of challenges. All monsters of levels near your level are 100% impossible to kill you when you're not AFK. Impossible. No challenge. Boring. So, since all recent MMORPGs wants me to play alone then I don't find any reason or any kind of excitement to login. It doesn't matter if I have friends that play the game or not because the quests are too easy for 1 player and grouping with friends will be even more boring because the content will be tooooooooooooooooo easy.
Seems threads like this just keep being written...then written again.I to share the OP's position that we are seeing the same set of games over and over and over.I used to think this decision making stupidity would end,,,but players feed the mindless pap mills by jumping into every new glittery game looking for "the one".Now....I'm even less optomistic .
Let me quote some research for you from this article:
"total spending on MMO games this year rose by 30% compared to last year. Around 47.5 million Americans play MMOs and although 90% of these play free-to-play games"
Are you going to continue to stand by "That the overall market for MMORPGs has peaked and is now diminishing". Are you going to tell me that a 30% growth is "diminishing"?
I do not consider myself a MMORPG player, even though I've spent years in EVE and decent amount of time in other mmorpgs.
If anyone is interested in the opinion of non-mmorpg player, here it goes:
The problem with playing MMORPGs is that they are actually boring by itself. The gameplay for solo gamer is boring. You get excitement phases with lots of boredom in between: planning character, weapons/armor, fun, 5% of the game. Figuring out how to kill a new mob, fun. 5% of the game. Killing that same mob 150 times when you already know how to kill it - NOT FUN AT ALL, 90% of the game.
I'll get back to crafting and other activities later.
Of course, mmorpg aren't meant for solo players, are they? When you get lots of friends and people to play with and against, it's a totally different piece of cookie. Killing that same mob 150 times while exchanging jokes and having fun with your group is not that bad.
But here is the catch. To get that group of people who are fun to play with means investing a lot of time into building relationships with people - getting into RIGHT guilds (you get into a guild and discover that its prime time is 12 hours across from yours. Bummer.), getting to know people and let them know you, getting to be friends. It takes a freakish amount of time; and I don't have it! I have a job, I have wife, I have hobbies other than mmorpgs, I can't afford that time!
And if you don't invest your time into relationships with players you will always be an outsider. Not fun.
Now for PVP. It's far, far more interesting, at least for me, but here is the catch again: you need a good group for proper pvp. No group = you are dead. There are instanced zones where you get into random groups, but here is the bugger: FPS online do it better than MMORPG and you don't need to spend all that time grinding mobs there.
Really, if you can't invest time into building relationships, there is absolutely nothing in the area of pvp that a mmorpg can offer you compared to fps or dedicated pvp games. Zero. Now, I'm currently playing (and probably will play forever) World of Tanks and Team Fortress 2. Let's compare WoT (an amazing, innovative game, by the way) with your average MMORPG. Well, an excellent mechanics of driving the tank with amazingly detailed model of damage etc is good by itself; but let's look at it from my point of view.
I have half an hour between my work and my wife. I login into the game. It takes 2 minutes from the moment of starting the game to getting into random match 15 by 15, players are random, but teams are excellently balanced; everyone has a role, even if you have tier4 and tier10 tanks and artillery in one team, everyone has a role to play; no one is just cannon fodder; everyone does something for team's victory. Gameplay is highly tactical, you depend on your teammates, but usually at that level most people know what they are doing.
The game goes for 15 minutes tops; if you are killed you can instantly grab another tank and jump into other game instance or continue to watch and cheerlead for your team. You get experience, money, upgrades, skills, variations in your tank's setup, etc. Tanks of different nations, even of the same class and role, have different types of gameplay. If you have time, you can get into a squad, a guild, or whole team; if you have time you can even play the metagame of guilds on global map, but you don't have to; game is still fun even if all you have is half an hour.
What can possibly offer an mmorpg's random pvp to me, compared to that? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Oh, and it's free. It has gameshop, but it's "done-right gameshop". You can speed up your development through it, but I never did, because every step there is fun, not grind (for me, at least.) You can get a couple of percents improvement over your opponents on top tier, but teamplay on that level is so much more important that it doesn't even comes close to breaking the gameplay.
Now, I'm not saying that there is nothing other than pvp a mmorpg can offer me. There is crafting and trading; you can interact with other players without having to invest into relationships through it; unfortunately, 90% of mmorpgs SUCK at it. EVE have done it, especially trading, right; why most other mmorpgs suck major balls in that department is a complete mystery for me. Just damn copy it, changing it a bit in accordance to your game! Is that so damn hard?!! Yeah, apparently.
There is exploration, fun and great and excellent, where you move through the game discovering that it can offer to you. Like my sightseeing tours through hundreds of low-level systems in EVE, without purpose, just to look at what there is out there. Like freerunning in Fallen Earth, where you'll never know what's that on the horizon. Like the whole "uncharted waters online" where I've spent a month developing the character, sailing around, opening new markets and new areas, running adventure missions (all unique) which offer interesting tidbits of cultural and historical information in every quest, chatting with people in my guild (but it was just for chat, the game was pure single-player with my dual-box characters), and not once fighting a single damn mob. When i've opened all the areas, I've just quit - nothing else of interest to do. The game is finished.
So, as you can see, there is nothing MMORPG can actually offer long-term to a player who does not creates his fun for himself through huge investment of time into player relationships.
I'll continue to play online FPS for years, but for mmorpgs? Guild wars 2, apparently, is going to be mob grind (meh. Double meh. Triple meh.) with only interesting bits through interplayer interaction, and I don't have time for that. This one is out. SWTOR looks great: engaging storyline, fun graphics, companions and interesting (although bland) crafting (with probably sucking brass balls trading, but who cares) - good content for solo players! PvE group zones need only 3-4 players - very good! It's a lot easier to get 2 other guys than 10 other guys to run them with you, hell, I may be even able to find a small guild in my lvl range in my timezone! Wouldn't it be NICE? PvP is totally meh, but who cares.
AND It has Sci-Fi theme! Not another damn swordfest! Well, there are jedies and siths there, but those sword-wankers are classes I'm DEFINITELY not planning to play as at all.
So, I'm planning to buying the game at launch, playing for one month getting through the storylines of Bounty Hunter and Smuggler, and then not renewing it at the end of the month, because, honestly, what is there to do after the storylines? Grinding same flashpoints for another piece of slightly better gear? Do not want.
That's why MMORPGs will remain forever niche games. Most people just don't have time to do the only thing they are actually for: building interplayer relationships. And it's okay. At least Bioware does the thing that actually attracts non-mmorpg players like me: focusing on single-player with possibility to not spend your life in the game and yet be entertained. Hope more companies will do that; those that don't will not see my money. Simple.
You disagree with what part? (heavy edit there btw )
That the overall market for MMORPGs has peaked and is now diminishing, or that the companies selling these games are making RPG lite?
On the first part,well I stand by that. The fad for these games in the mainstream HAS peaked and we will see only diminishing returns from here on in.
On the second part, well... They all talk a good game, especially when their know thats what the core audience wants to hear. I will believe them when they deliver their product. In the meantime I will judge Bioware on their recent track record, which is definitely in the realm of RPG lite.
I should say though that I was making a point about the term 'RPG' becoming dirty again to the mainstream audience rather the the game designers.
and if I need to put 'IMO' here to protect sensibilities, then consider this it.
Ah, I thought it was clear, the second part. I disagree with the 1st part too, but the 2nd part was what my post was about.
Well, then your post was about a misunderstood point I guess.
but you really don't think that the MMORPG market has peaked and is in (albeit slow, as is the nature of people quitting these games) decline here in the Westnow that the fad has popped? That surprises me.
You think more people are coming into the hobby then getting pissed off with it and quitting for other types of games?
Since I'm not embittered or disillusioned by any kind of past expectations. I see no reason to believe...
Oh well, great for you, wish I was as perfect. I will look at my past experiences with the BS that devs come with when they have a game to push thoug, especially Funcom who are, basically, traditionally full of crap. If they deliver, fine, but I have been taught to take everything they say with a huge pinch of salt. If that makes me 'embittered' then fine. I prefer to call it wise. I have seen too many lies to naively extend trust at this stage.
I will stress here though that this isnt the point I was making, so we are talking ab out a misunderstanding of the point rather then the point. I only used the Bioware example to illustrate even their respsonse to a market that they percieve as being actually pretty unfriendly to traditional RPG loadings. I didnt want to get into anything like 'what defines a RPG' or 'do MMORPG devs lie and what kind of people are we if we trust them or not' type of conversations so lets maybe not carry on getting sidetracked?
The way you referred to RPG becoming a dirty word, I thought you meant by the devs. Although I also can't really see how RPG has become dirty to the mainstream audience, unless you mean 'RP'?
No, 'RP' has always been a dirty word to the masses, and most MMORPGers even tbh. Which is a shame, but there you go.
I am talking specifcially about 'RPG' here, as in what defines the genre.
Look at the shift in directiona nd emphasis that Bioware took from DA:O to DA2, in order to make themselves more mass market friendly, to understand what I mean by that.
But... To get us back on track, because you stripped it away through heavy handed editing, my core point was;
The truth is that MMORPGs became the fad for a bit, they entered the mainstream big style and attracted a ton of people that wouldnt have normally been interested in what they offer but played because it was 'the thing' to be doing. Hell, even my sister made a WoW account for a while and she isnt even approaching the type of gamer that would have picked up EQ in '99.
Now that bubble has popped and we will see a shrinking player base for them as mainstream people drift away to the new fad, be it the new Nintendo or whatever.
Well, then your post was about a misunderstood point I guess.
but you really don't think that the MMORPG market has peaked and is in (albeit slow, as is the nature of people quitting these games) decline here in the Westnow that the fad has popped? That surprises me.
You think more people are coming into the hobby then getting pissed off with it and quitting for other types of games?
Well, I won't be looking them up but several surveys and analysis reports showed that the MMORPG market worldwide has actually been growing, in the West too. Whether that's mostly in MMO's that the hard core of MMO vets dislike is hard to tell, but still, increase is there.
And with MMORPG's as SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ArcheAge, WoD, EQNext, Planetside Next, Copernicus, project Titan and F2P gems like Firefall and Blade & Soul upcoming I expect that the MMO market will even get a higher boost than before, with old and new MMO gamers showing up for these. There were quote some non-MMO gamers that I know who showed interest in GW2 or SWTOR.
Oh well, great for you, wish I was as perfect. I will look at my past experiences with the BS that devs come with when they have a game to push thoug, especially Funcom who are, basically, traditionally full of crap. If they deliver, fine, but I have been taught to take everything they say with a huge pinch of salt. If that makes me 'embittered' then fine. I prefer to call it wise. I have seen too many lies to naively extend trust at this stage.
It has nothing to do with being perfect: like with AoC, I didn't pay much attention to a number of prerelease promises, I saw them as nothing more but declarations of intent. The things that I was paying attention to were all there, so the result was that I could enjoy AoC for what it was, not what I thought it'd be, the same applied to other MMO's I played. But as you said, this wasn't the point you were trying to make, so moving on...
No, 'RP' has always been a dirty word to the masses, and most MMORPGers even tbh. Which is a shame, but there you go.
I am talking specifcially about 'RPG' here, as in what defines the genre.
Look at the shift in directiona nd emphasis that Bioware took from DA:O to DA2, in order to make themselves more mass market friendly, to understand what I mean by that.
? Still confusing, are you talking about 'RPG' becoming a dirty word for gamers or for devs, since the example you give is of BW, a dev, making DA2 more of an action-oriented hack/slash RPG. In both cases, I still don't see or agree with your point. From the gamer side it's easy, I don't see a growing dislike of gamers against RPG games, they like to play action RPG's as well as traditional RPG's. And from the devs, you've all kinds of game companies busy with making RPG's, from a Mass Effect and Dragon Age series to a Skyrim or the Witcher 2.
But... To get us back on track, because you stripped it away through heavy handed editing, my core point was;
The truth is that MMORPGs became the fad for a bit, they entered the mainstream big style and attracted a ton of people that wouldnt have normally been interested in what they offer but played because it was 'the thing' to be doing. Hell, even my sister made a WoW account for a while and she isnt even approaching the type of gamer that would have picked up EQ in '99.
Now that bubble has popped and we will see a shrinking player base for them as mainstream people drift away to the new fad, be it the new Nintendo or whatever.
I don't see why I had to reflect upon all the arguments you made and not just 1 point that jumped out at me, there was no heavy handed editing at all, no distorting the meaning of your arguments by selectively cutting away words or parts of sentences. I just lifted 1 argument from your post full of arguments that I wanted to react upon.
But if you really want me to react upon every argument in your post you made, even the ones that I'm indifferent about, ok then: let's call it what it is, shall we, it wasn't MMORPG's that became the fad, it was World of Warcraft that became the fad, just like virtual world simulations didn't become the fad but Second Life became the fad.
Sure, all those new people might play an MMORPG when they play WoW, but a point could be made to question whether those groups are really MMORPG gamers if WoW is the only one they've ever played and as soon as they leave WoW, they don't play other MMO's but just leave the MMO scene again.
The MMORGP industry in itself has been growing steadily besides WoW even if it was thanks to WoW that it got a major boost in the first place: more and more MMORPG's being released that have high production value, a lot of them having as healthy sub numbers and player activity as MMO's had before WoW. And I don't see that changing any time soon with the list of impressive MMO's that'll enter the scene in the next few years.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I dropped MMORPGS a few months ago and enjoying single player RPG's much much more now...
This ^^ I am enjoying single player games more than MMOs.
These days I cancel the subscription right after I subscribe. Just use the free month and move on to the next game. And while I wait for the next MMO, I play single player games. The reason is because I am done with gear grinding and time sinks that are not even fun. Been there, done that.
I do not consider myself a MMORPG player, even though I've spent years in EVE and decent amount of time in other mmorpgs.
If anyone is interested in the opinion of non-mmorpg player, here it goes:
That's why MMORPGs will remain forever niche games. Most people just don't have time to do the only thing they are actually for: building interplayer relationships. And it's okay. At least Bioware does the thing that actually attracts non-mmorpg players like me: focusing on single-player with possibility to not spend your life in the game and yet be entertained. Hope more companies will do that; those that don't will not see my money. Simple.
I didn't quote this whole post for brevity. Great post thanks for sharing. I am a MMO player but mainly for the massive content they offer. I agree with every point you made with the minor exception that I will play thru TOR as a Sith Juggernaut first. :-)
Well said on the awful repetitiveness of many quests as well as dreadful PUG pvp. PUG pve is generally dreadful too. Also great points on community/guild building. My personal, real life relationships mean too much to me to invest 3 or more hours per day to be a guildie in good standing.
I also particularly enjoyed the earlier note that 90% of US MMO players are strictly f2p gamers. That confirms a lot I have been theorizing for some time.
I think we need a reliable source of data, like MMORPGChart or MMOGdata.
To tell you the truth, the only data we have is from the publishers and industry folks, who have a vested interest to inflate the numbers. If there was a downturn, they'd never tell us, that's for sure.
But ever since our sources of info have dried up, we are really only speculating.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
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"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't believe that some major breakthrough game will bring MMORPGs back and revive the industry. Seems the best offerings these days are highly polished mediocrity, and the lowest are get-rich-quick games where addicted players get suckered in to shelling out more and more money for the "I Win" button.
I'm done looking. I just go play Guild Wars or Morrowind when I'm not working on my own.
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Meh. I need inspiration, but personally I feel the future does not look good when I look into the game list on games to be released
You cant inspire someone to do something, the same thing, repeatedly all the time. The vast majority of mainstream mmorpg's are overly-glorified single-player games with absolutely no redeeming community or player-centric organic qualities that transcend that of a single-player rpg, but your asked to pay $15/month.
The MMO player-base is there, but their bored and on hiatus. It's not the player-base that needs inspiration, but the devs, and I dont see anything inspirational on the horizon.
I use to play MMORPG's, but they have grown stale. All we seem to be getting is the same-old stuff - wash-rinse-repeat. Tired of the dead-end themeparks. Tired of the shallow game play. Give me a good Mount and Blade based MMORPG with aspects of Age of Empires faction building and a liege system like Asheron's Call and I would be good to go. Unti lthen. I have Mount and Blade Warband and soon Battlefield 3.
Well, I won't be looking them up but several surveys and analysis reports showed that the MMORPG market worldwide has actually been growing,
Please do, or don't bring them into the conversation. And I mean current. Your say so isnt enough.
But... To get us back on track, because you stripped it away through heavy handed editing, my core point was;
The truth is that MMORPGs became the fad for a bit, they entered the mainstream big style and attracted a ton of people that wouldnt have normally been interested in what they offer but played because it was 'the thing' to be doing. Hell, even my sister made a WoW account for a while and she isnt even approaching the type of gamer that would have picked up EQ in '99.
Now that bubble has popped and we will see a shrinking player base for them as mainstream people drift away to the new fad, be it the new Nintendo or whatever.
I don't see why I had to reflect upon all the arguments you made and not just 1 point that jumped out at me
One point you misunderstood, as explained already. You ignored the actual point, and seized upon one sentence that you misunderstood. You seem to be finding alot confusing in this thread tbh.
Try reflecting on the actual point maybe, rather then belabouring a, as clarifies, misunderstood point on your part.
there was no heavy handed editing at all
Fella... you cut most of the post away.
,no distorting the meaning of your arguments by selectively cutting away words or parts of sentences. I just lifted 1 argument from your post full of arguments that I wanted to react upon.
The line, as explained, you misunderstood.
But if you really want me to react upon every argument... /snip for the sake of sanity
No, as said just the one being made...ahh y'know what? lol forget it... No matter. it's not worth the hassle to keep responding to you tbh. The thread is all yours and you can have the (inevitable) last word. Too much crap to cut through to have a decent chat here, as per usual.
I am not comparing the current state of the MMO's with as it was 10-15 years ago; I feel the peak population was like a few years ago. The genre is massive, but I feel due to it's failure to renew itself, the population is declining.
I am not comparing the current state of the MMO's with as it was 10-15 years ago; I feel the peak population was like a few years ago. The genre is massive, but I feel due to it's failure to renew itself, the population is declining.
I think you're likely correct, but I haven't seen any numbers to confirm that this is actually happening. If it is, who knows how long until us mere mmo'ers get access to that info.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Let me quote some research for you from this article:
"total spending on MMO games this year rose by 30% compared to last year. Around 47.5 million Americans play MMOs and although 90% of these play free-to-play games"
Are you going to continue to stand by "That the overall market for MMORPGs has peaked and is now diminishing". Are you going to tell me that a 30% growth is "diminishing"?
This should preety much have answered the question.
Let me quote some research for you from this article:
"total spending on MMO games this year rose by 30% compared to last year. Around 47.5 million Americans play MMOs and although 90% of these play free-to-play games"
Are you going to continue to stand by "That the overall market for MMORPGs has peaked and is now diminishing". Are you going to tell me that a 30% growth is "diminishing"?
This should preety much have answered the question.
FtP games report everyone that's ever signed up to them, whether they actually played for more than a few minutes or not. How do companies cross reference their players to account for duplicates? Does the incredible numbers of games like Farmville (again, everyone who's ever signed up to try it out) count for the kinds of MMORPGs we play?
These reports are like any other statistics. They can be cherry picked.
FtP games report everyone that's ever signed up to them, whether they actually played for more than a few minutes or not. How do companies cross reference their players to account for duplicates? Does the incredible numbers of games like Farmville (again, everyone who's ever signed up to try it out) count for the kinds of MMORPGs we play?
These reports are like any other statistics. They can be cherry picked.
Yes, it's obvious they're counting Farmville in the 47 million MMORPG user statistic.
The question is, which games were they counting to get the -15 million to offset the 62 million registered Farmville users.
:B
... conversely, Free Realms claims over 10 million users, while WoW claims 12 mlilion. That's nearly HALF the 47 million MMORPG users.
It's pretty obvious that however they're getting their statistics, it's not the way you think they are.
They're not polling the various MMO companies and then adding the user numbers together, including Facebook applications, because I'm pretty sure the number would get disturbingly close to exceeding the world's population at that point in time.
If you looka t just how MANY MMORPGs there are in the MMORPG.com game list, it's not too hard to believe that the 47.5 million statistic is at least moderately accurate. Yeah, it's mostly people playing games like... Adventure Worlds or something, but whatever. They're people too.
(The thing I don't understand is why don't people really look at the numbers? ... even if you just count the 'big name' MMOs, you get a LOT of users. Millions and millions. Way more than were ever playing during the EQ days, by at least one order of magnitude.)
If Blizzard gets thieir way, "Titan" will bring a whole new player base aboard, along with all of the current "on vacation" mmorpg players. They said it's going to be a complete re-work from anything in the past, so this could be the next big spike in mmo's, leading once again to a growth in population all over the genre.
Most probably think WOW hurt a lot of mmo companies, but in reality it gave (I believe) a good number of players to these other games; people mostly new to mmo's
I'm not trying to get into a discussion about "Titain" being the next big mmo, but we do need a game that can re-charge the industry, and give it fresh meat >_<, whatever that may be.
FtP games report everyone that's ever signed up to them, whether they actually played for more than a few minutes or not. How do companies cross reference their players to account for duplicates? Does the incredible numbers of games like Farmville (again, everyone who's ever signed up to try it out) count for the kinds of MMORPGs we play?
These reports are like any other statistics. They can be cherry picked.
Yes, it's obvious they're counting Farmville in the 47 million MMORPG user statistic.
The question is, which games were they counting to get the -15 million to offset the 62 million registered Farmville users.
:B
... conversely, Free Realms claims over 10 million users, while WoW claims 12 mlilion. That's nearly HALF the 47 million MMORPG users.
It's pretty obvious that however they're getting their statistics, it's not the way you think they are.
They're not polling the various MMO companies and then adding the user numbers together, including Facebook applications, because I'm pretty sure the number would get disturbingly close to exceeding the world's population at that point in time.
If you looka t just how MANY MMORPGs there are in the MMORPG.com game list, it's not too hard to believe that the 47.5 million statistic is at least moderately accurate. Yeah, it's mostly people playing games like... Adventure Worlds or something, but whatever. They're people too.
(The thing I don't understand is why don't people really look at the numbers? ... even if you just count the 'big name' MMOs, you get a LOT of users. Millions and millions. Way more than were ever playing during the EQ days, by at least one order of magnitude.)
I was just making a point, one you seem to agree with, whether Farmville was included and at what stage it was when they did this or not. But then in the end you fall back to simply adding up numbers for totals? Which all points to the fact that you can't take these reports at face value.
My feeling is that Facebook and other FtP sources have indeed increased the numbers dramatically. The money, overall, has almost certainly increased dramatically as well.
But I also think that the players are on the move, from FtP game to FtP game, in huge numbers like herds on the Serengeti planes. This doesn't do the industry much good when players are trying things out and moving on.
I also think I see, in our style of MMORPGs, a rapidly growing dissatisfaction and retreat. Already new games are suffering in retention. We see some games dropping off in initial sales. I think sales will still be good for the next round of well known names, but retention will again be a big problem. And after that, the initial sales will drop off the map.
Comments
this is depressing...
i really miss back in the days when i could not wait to get off work to play my game with huge guilds and friend list oh oh oh and those dragons that killed 40 people if one of them healers forget to heal the tank... oh good times good times...
the problem is with more choices out comes less time to spend and forge bonds with the comunity right now i am waitng for Old republic and hope that i can get the time and luck to meet good people but the MMO players are outt there they just playing way to many games...
The problem is, it doesn't matter if there are a lot of people playing MMORPGs or not. You are going to be playing alone most of the time in these games. Take Rift as an example I am always excited to try new games to play with partners/friends. But recent games just don't give you a content for 2-3 players. It is either 1 player (too easy for 1 too) or a dungeon. So, since dungeons start at later teens in most games you end up soloing everything your first few days/week. Boring and it does feel lonely.
Why would I want to susrcibe to an MMORPG with my friends when we're not going to play together 90% of the time. Why don't we get hard outdoor and indoor encouters suited for 2, 3 or even 4 players? I just don't get it.
The reason why we get bored is lack of freedom and lack of challenges. All monsters of levels near your level are 100% impossible to kill you when you're not AFK. Impossible. No challenge. Boring. So, since all recent MMORPGs wants me to play alone then I don't find any reason or any kind of excitement to login. It doesn't matter if I have friends that play the game or not because the quests are too easy for 1 player and grouping with friends will be even more boring because the content will be tooooooooooooooooo easy.
Seems threads like this just keep being written...then written again.I to share the OP's position that we are seeing the same set of games over and over and over.I used to think this decision making stupidity would end,,,but players feed the mindless pap mills by jumping into every new glittery game looking for "the one".Now....I'm even less optomistic .
LOL you stand by the first part with what? Personal guess and opinions? And totally ignoring any evidence?
Here is a 2010 report on the MMO market.
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/57989/MMO-Market-Report-Shows-30-Growth
Let me quote some research for you from this article:
"total spending on MMO games this year rose by 30% compared to last year. Around 47.5 million Americans play MMOs and although 90% of these play free-to-play games"
Are you going to continue to stand by "That the overall market for MMORPGs has peaked and is now diminishing". Are you going to tell me that a 30% growth is "diminishing"?
I do not consider myself a MMORPG player, even though I've spent years in EVE and decent amount of time in other mmorpgs.
If anyone is interested in the opinion of non-mmorpg player, here it goes:
The problem with playing MMORPGs is that they are actually boring by itself. The gameplay for solo gamer is boring. You get excitement phases with lots of boredom in between: planning character, weapons/armor, fun, 5% of the game. Figuring out how to kill a new mob, fun. 5% of the game. Killing that same mob 150 times when you already know how to kill it - NOT FUN AT ALL, 90% of the game.
I'll get back to crafting and other activities later.
Of course, mmorpg aren't meant for solo players, are they? When you get lots of friends and people to play with and against, it's a totally different piece of cookie. Killing that same mob 150 times while exchanging jokes and having fun with your group is not that bad.
But here is the catch. To get that group of people who are fun to play with means investing a lot of time into building relationships with people - getting into RIGHT guilds (you get into a guild and discover that its prime time is 12 hours across from yours. Bummer.), getting to know people and let them know you, getting to be friends. It takes a freakish amount of time; and I don't have it! I have a job, I have wife, I have hobbies other than mmorpgs, I can't afford that time!
And if you don't invest your time into relationships with players you will always be an outsider. Not fun.
Now for PVP. It's far, far more interesting, at least for me, but here is the catch again: you need a good group for proper pvp. No group = you are dead. There are instanced zones where you get into random groups, but here is the bugger: FPS online do it better than MMORPG and you don't need to spend all that time grinding mobs there.
Really, if you can't invest time into building relationships, there is absolutely nothing in the area of pvp that a mmorpg can offer you compared to fps or dedicated pvp games. Zero. Now, I'm currently playing (and probably will play forever) World of Tanks and Team Fortress 2. Let's compare WoT (an amazing, innovative game, by the way) with your average MMORPG. Well, an excellent mechanics of driving the tank with amazingly detailed model of damage etc is good by itself; but let's look at it from my point of view.
I have half an hour between my work and my wife. I login into the game. It takes 2 minutes from the moment of starting the game to getting into random match 15 by 15, players are random, but teams are excellently balanced; everyone has a role, even if you have tier4 and tier10 tanks and artillery in one team, everyone has a role to play; no one is just cannon fodder; everyone does something for team's victory. Gameplay is highly tactical, you depend on your teammates, but usually at that level most people know what they are doing.
The game goes for 15 minutes tops; if you are killed you can instantly grab another tank and jump into other game instance or continue to watch and cheerlead for your team.
You get experience, money, upgrades, skills, variations in your tank's setup, etc. Tanks of different nations, even of the same class and role, have different types of gameplay. If you have time, you can get into a squad, a guild, or whole team; if you have time you can even play the metagame of guilds on global map, but you don't have to; game is still fun even if all you have is half an hour.
What can possibly offer an mmorpg's random pvp to me, compared to that? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Oh, and it's free. It has gameshop, but it's "done-right gameshop". You can speed up your development through it, but I never did, because every step there is fun, not grind (for me, at least.) You can get a couple of percents improvement over your opponents on top tier, but teamplay on that level is so much more important that it doesn't even comes close to breaking the gameplay.
Now, I'm not saying that there is nothing other than pvp a mmorpg can offer me. There is crafting and trading; you can interact with other players without having to invest into relationships through it; unfortunately, 90% of mmorpgs SUCK at it. EVE have done it, especially trading, right; why most other mmorpgs suck major balls in that department is a complete mystery for me. Just damn copy it, changing it a bit in accordance to your game! Is that so damn hard?!! Yeah, apparently.
There is exploration, fun and great and excellent, where you move through the game discovering that it can offer to you. Like my sightseeing tours through hundreds of low-level systems in EVE, without purpose, just to look at what there is out there. Like freerunning in Fallen Earth, where you'll never know what's that on the horizon. Like the whole "uncharted waters online" where I've spent a month developing the character, sailing around, opening new markets and new areas, running adventure missions (all unique) which offer interesting tidbits of cultural and historical information in every quest, chatting with people in my guild (but it was just for chat, the game was pure single-player with my dual-box characters), and not once fighting a single damn mob. When i've opened all the areas, I've just quit - nothing else of interest to do. The game is finished.
So, as you can see, there is nothing MMORPG can actually offer long-term to a player who does not creates his fun for himself through huge investment of time into player relationships.
I'll continue to play online FPS for years, but for mmorpgs? Guild wars 2, apparently, is going to be mob grind (meh. Double meh. Triple meh.) with only interesting bits through interplayer interaction, and I don't have time for that. This one is out. SWTOR looks great: engaging storyline, fun graphics, companions and interesting (although bland) crafting (with probably sucking brass balls trading, but who cares) - good content for solo players! PvE group zones need only 3-4 players - very good! It's a lot easier to get 2 other guys than 10 other guys to run them with you, hell, I may be even able to find a small guild in my lvl range in my timezone! Wouldn't it be NICE? PvP is totally meh, but who cares.
AND It has Sci-Fi theme! Not another damn swordfest! Well, there are jedies and siths there, but those sword-wankers are classes I'm DEFINITELY not planning to play as at all.
So, I'm planning to buying the game at launch, playing for one month getting through the storylines of Bounty Hunter and Smuggler, and then not renewing it at the end of the month, because, honestly, what is there to do after the storylines? Grinding same flashpoints for another piece of slightly better gear? Do not want.
That's why MMORPGs will remain forever niche games. Most people just don't have time to do the only thing they are actually for: building interplayer relationships. And it's okay. At least Bioware does the thing that actually attracts non-mmorpg players like me: focusing on single-player with possibility to not spend your life in the game and yet be entertained. Hope more companies will do that; those that don't will not see my money. Simple.
MMOs have always been light on the RPG part. MMOs are quite similar to games like Diablo, Titan Quest in this regard.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I dropped MMORPGS a few months ago and enjoying single player RPG's much much more now...
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.
Edgar Allan Poe
I don't see why I had to reflect upon all the arguments you made and not just 1 point that jumped out at me, there was no heavy handed editing at all, no distorting the meaning of your arguments by selectively cutting away words or parts of sentences. I just lifted 1 argument from your post full of arguments that I wanted to react upon.
But if you really want me to react upon every argument in your post you made, even the ones that I'm indifferent about, ok then: let's call it what it is, shall we, it wasn't MMORPG's that became the fad, it was World of Warcraft that became the fad, just like virtual world simulations didn't become the fad but Second Life became the fad.
Sure, all those new people might play an MMORPG when they play WoW, but a point could be made to question whether those groups are really MMORPG gamers if WoW is the only one they've ever played and as soon as they leave WoW, they don't play other MMO's but just leave the MMO scene again.
The MMORGP industry in itself has been growing steadily besides WoW even if it was thanks to WoW that it got a major boost in the first place: more and more MMORPG's being released that have high production value, a lot of them having as healthy sub numbers and player activity as MMO's had before WoW. And I don't see that changing any time soon with the list of impressive MMO's that'll enter the scene in the next few years.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This ^^ I am enjoying single player games more than MMOs.
These days I cancel the subscription right after I subscribe. Just use the free month and move on to the next game. And while I wait for the next MMO, I play single player games. The reason is because I am done with gear grinding and time sinks that are not even fun. Been there, done that.
I didn't quote this whole post for brevity. Great post thanks for sharing. I am a MMO player but mainly for the massive content they offer. I agree with every point you made with the minor exception that I will play thru TOR as a Sith Juggernaut first. :-)
Well said on the awful repetitiveness of many quests as well as dreadful PUG pvp. PUG pve is generally dreadful too. Also great points on community/guild building. My personal, real life relationships mean too much to me to invest 3 or more hours per day to be a guildie in good standing.
I also particularly enjoyed the earlier note that 90% of US MMO players are strictly f2p gamers. That confirms a lot I have been theorizing for some time.This statement doesn't give me a lot of hope. Actually....it's a mortifying thought.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I think we need a reliable source of data, like MMORPGChart or MMOGdata.
To tell you the truth, the only data we have is from the publishers and industry folks, who have a vested interest to inflate the numbers. If there was a downturn, they'd never tell us, that's for sure.
But ever since our sources of info have dried up, we are really only speculating.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't believe that some major breakthrough game will bring MMORPGs back and revive the industry. Seems the best offerings these days are highly polished mediocrity, and the lowest are get-rich-quick games where addicted players get suckered in to shelling out more and more money for the "I Win" button.
I'm done looking. I just go play Guild Wars or Morrowind when I'm not working on my own.
You cant inspire someone to do something, the same thing, repeatedly all the time. The vast majority of mainstream mmorpg's are overly-glorified single-player games with absolutely no redeeming community or player-centric organic qualities that transcend that of a single-player rpg, but your asked to pay $15/month.
The MMO player-base is there, but their bored and on hiatus. It's not the player-base that needs inspiration, but the devs, and I dont see anything inspirational on the horizon.
I use to play MMORPG's, but they have grown stale. All we seem to be getting is the same-old stuff - wash-rinse-repeat. Tired of the dead-end themeparks. Tired of the shallow game play. Give me a good Mount and Blade based MMORPG with aspects of Age of Empires faction building and a liege system like Asheron's Call and I would be good to go. Unti lthen. I have Mount and Blade Warband and soon Battlefield 3.
MMORPGS -> GAME OVER.
We all, devs and players, have broken the most fun toy.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
I am not comparing the current state of the MMO's with as it was 10-15 years ago; I feel the peak population was like a few years ago. The genre is massive, but I feel due to it's failure to renew itself, the population is declining.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I think you're likely correct, but I haven't seen any numbers to confirm that this is actually happening. If it is, who knows how long until us mere mmo'ers get access to that info.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
This should preety much have answered the question.
FtP games report everyone that's ever signed up to them, whether they actually played for more than a few minutes or not. How do companies cross reference their players to account for duplicates? Does the incredible numbers of games like Farmville (again, everyone who's ever signed up to try it out) count for the kinds of MMORPGs we play?
These reports are like any other statistics. They can be cherry picked.
Once upon a time....
Yes, it's obvious they're counting Farmville in the 47 million MMORPG user statistic.
The question is, which games were they counting to get the -15 million to offset the 62 million registered Farmville users.
:B
... conversely, Free Realms claims over 10 million users, while WoW claims 12 mlilion. That's nearly HALF the 47 million MMORPG users.
It's pretty obvious that however they're getting their statistics, it's not the way you think they are.
They're not polling the various MMO companies and then adding the user numbers together, including Facebook applications, because I'm pretty sure the number would get disturbingly close to exceeding the world's population at that point in time.
If you looka t just how MANY MMORPGs there are in the MMORPG.com game list, it's not too hard to believe that the 47.5 million statistic is at least moderately accurate. Yeah, it's mostly people playing games like... Adventure Worlds or something, but whatever. They're people too.
(The thing I don't understand is why don't people really look at the numbers? ... even if you just count the 'big name' MMOs, you get a LOT of users. Millions and millions. Way more than were ever playing during the EQ days, by at least one order of magnitude.)
If Blizzard gets thieir way, "Titan" will bring a whole new player base aboard, along with all of the current "on vacation" mmorpg players. They said it's going to be a complete re-work from anything in the past, so this could be the next big spike in mmo's, leading once again to a growth in population all over the genre.
Most probably think WOW hurt a lot of mmo companies, but in reality it gave (I believe) a good number of players to these other games; people mostly new to mmo's
I'm not trying to get into a discussion about "Titain" being the next big mmo, but we do need a game that can re-charge the industry, and give it fresh meat >_<, whatever that may be.
I was just making a point, one you seem to agree with, whether Farmville was included and at what stage it was when they did this or not. But then in the end you fall back to simply adding up numbers for totals? Which all points to the fact that you can't take these reports at face value.
My feeling is that Facebook and other FtP sources have indeed increased the numbers dramatically. The money, overall, has almost certainly increased dramatically as well.
But I also think that the players are on the move, from FtP game to FtP game, in huge numbers like herds on the Serengeti planes. This doesn't do the industry much good when players are trying things out and moving on.
I also think I see, in our style of MMORPGs, a rapidly growing dissatisfaction and retreat. Already new games are suffering in retention. We see some games dropping off in initial sales. I think sales will still be good for the next round of well known names, but retention will again be a big problem. And after that, the initial sales will drop off the map.
Once upon a time....