Where is the "Doesn't matter" option. I am amazed so many people have strong opinions about this (I guess this IS the internet afterall, where everyone has strong opinions). But personally I have played in both systems and as long as the decision makes sense (lore or logically) then I like both systems.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
If it makes sense due to lore and honest racial limits (as someone else mentioned giant rogues) fine. I was always disappointed there was no stygian warrior class in AoC. I couldn't figue out why.
I agree with Meowhead that it depends on the game. For example, if your rogue class is designed for stealth and evasion, the giant race or the stone golem race probably wouldn't be too suited for it. If, however, all the races could plausibly and statistically pull off the class without any major imbalances or leaps of logic, then all for all sounds like a good idea.
Yep, I'll go along with this viewpoint, Keep it dependent on the lore and some physical practicalities.
But overall I don't object to lockouts of certain classes by race, still think it was a shame that WOW let Horde have Pallys and Alliance have Shamans, gave each side their own special flavor.
That is the downside of wow caving into the must have it my way generation. I thought it added a nice flavor to have unique classes on a side. DOAC did a very good job of offering different races and classes.
In addition to the Meowhead reasoning, I see it from another point of view. Giving unlocks is something for those players who like to work to earn special classes/races. Just like giving PVP players some pvp in a game or raiders something to raid. For those who cry about why can't I have it now, it's annoying because they pay for the game therefore they should have it their way.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It always seemed pretty unrealistic and pointless to me to exclude some races from using certain classes.
Also kind of discriminative, boarderline racist, and kind of sends out a negavitive message if you really think about it (ie; the game is basically telling you, that you cannot be whatever you want to be in life, not unless you were born a certain way).
Restrictions and illogical. Any sentient being could pursue any path of work. On top, it just kills creativity and makes even more copy cats in a game where individuality is one of the most desired goods already. Like limiting Chiss in TOR to Imperial Agent means we will see LEGIONS of Imperial Agent Chiss'. I recall in EQ2 an Ogre hat made a betrayal quest and made a Paladin. He roleplayed him still a bit dumb and very Ogreish, but he played him SO great and convincing. I want a MMO to allow that creativity to make strange combinations. It is just the lack of vision and creativity that can't see the richness of this.
The problem with this can be basically summed up as the "Drizzt problem".
For those that don't know Drizzt was a D&D dark elf ( or drow ) that had forsaken his evil ways and became a good guy. This was a major thing because the Drow were evil. They had a society based on murder, cunning and violence. Their basic philosophy was the strong will survive.
Drizzt was very popular. So popular that suddenly a lot of people started roleplaying their very own good Drow.
Now imagine an MMO featuring Drow with the option of taking "good" classes as opposed to only evil classes. Their whole racial identity will be completely destroyed as hordes of players will be making "good" Drow and basically turn Drow into dark blue-skinned humans.
Strange combinations are only strange when there's serious limits on them. The moment you allow everyone to make every "creative" and strange combinations those combinations aren't strange and creative anymore. They're just standard choices.
Do I make a blue-skinned human? Do I make an extra-large human? Do I make a tall human with pointy ears?
For races to mean something you need to give them a racial identity. And then trap them inside that racial identity. Orcs are violent brutes. End of story. Sure, there might be a peaceful orc somewhere but that's not you. That's not a player. All player orcs are violent brutes. That's a race that means something. Allowing all choices means you just get buff green-skinned humans.
And? I mean, it's MY fantasy. I pay, I decide. ^^
I mean, millions of people wear the same oh so individual clothing, and the shops of course make us believe how... individual I look with just THESE jeans or just THAT jacket. Or car. Or whatever. It is the way things are in capitalism.
Fact is, in MMOs like EQ2, where all combinations are possible, I still was the only Darkelf Paladin I had ever met in 4+ years. So while in theory you might say so, in reality people still stick 80% to the known and proven. I think this entire line of argumentation is a bit elitist. Like in SWG, some people (with MUCH private time *cough*) always argued against opening Jedi to all, because it wasn't canon and the "everyone will be Jedi" argument. It just wasn't true in SWG. Yes in the beginning many tried it out! But after a while, you could see the same balance again. And again the bottom line was: I pay, I decide. I don't like this sort of elitism.
I just think it is quite rigid thinking that make all Ogres dumb brutes and all Dark Elves cunning evil guys. I always found this idea absurd. Yeah, fantasy non human races often are like that. Yadda yadda. Like the warlike Klingons or the greedy Ferengi. I just found that part of Sci-Fi and Fantasy always absurd. It is a typical human prejudice to think they themselves are all individuals and different but the OTHERS are all clones and alike. I haven't seen HUMANS being branded into stereotypes, it's always the others. This sort of thinking is understandable from the day Fantasy and Sci-Fi was made; but these days... it just doesn't make sense. Essentially, a society like the Drow could just not exist, the same goes for Klingons or whatever. They are WAAYY over stereotyped. I always saw this more as the prejudice through human eyes than the reality of these races.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If you want every race to be every class then just throw lore out the window and stop pretending to be making a virtual world and admit you're just making an arcadey game.
If you want every race to be every class then just throw lore out the window and stop pretending to be making a virtual world and admit you're just making an arcadey game.
Idk.. i never thought I'd see a dark elf ranger be workable till i read forgotten realms
Just because you can't imagine a story about how a class / race could come to be... doesn't mean somebody else couldn't
If you want every race to be every class then just throw lore out the window and stop pretending to be making a virtual world and admit you're just making an arcadey game.
Idk.. i never thought I'd see a dark elf ranger be workable till i read forgotten realms
Just because you can't imagine a story about how a class / race could come to be... doesn't mean somebody else couldn't
In many games, classes have backgrounds and are restricted. In DAoC heretics were raised purely underground, as icconu, and no other race had ever been there before so there was no way for them to be a heretic. Or, being a wizard required high intelligence, so an ogre couldn't learn to be a wizard, that sort of stuff.
If you want every race to be every class then just throw lore out the window and stop pretending to be making a virtual world and admit you're just making an arcadey game.
Very true! But isn't that what games are becoming? Kill the boss and take your chances at a drop VS kill a boss get a badge then rinse and repeat until number of badges >= uber gear cost.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If you want every race to be every class then just throw lore out the window and stop pretending to be making a virtual world and admit you're just making an arcadey game.
Idk.. i never thought I'd see a dark elf ranger be workable till i read forgotten realms
Just because you can't imagine a story about how a class / race could come to be... doesn't mean somebody else couldn't
In many games, classes have backgrounds and are restricted. In DAoC heretics were raised purely underground, as icconu, and no other race had ever been there before so there was no way for them to be a heretic. Or, being a wizard required high intelligence, so an ogre couldn't learn to be a wizard, that sort of stuff.
Yah, I'm saying I dont think class lockout by race should be a necessary feature when designing a game.
Let people play an Ogre wizard.. sure they might not be as "good" at dealing damage as an elf wizard.. and npc's might laugh at him and charge him more for spell components... but sometimes its fun to not be a cookie cutter character.
I just think it is quite rigid thinking that make all Ogres dumb brutes and all Dark Elves cunning evil guys. I always found this idea absurd. Yeah, fantasy non human races often are like that. Yadda yadda. Like the warlike Klingons or the greedy Ferengi. I just found that part of Sci-Fi and Fantasy always absurd. It is a typical human prejudice to think they themselves are all individuals and different but the OTHERS are all clones and alike. I haven't seen HUMANS being branded into stereotypes, it's always the others. This sort of thinking is understandable from the day Fantasy and Sci-Fi was made; but these days... it just doesn't make sense. Essentially, a society like the Drow could just not exist, the same goes for Klingons or whatever. They are WAAYY over stereotyped. I always saw this more as the prejudice through human eyes than the reality of these races.
That argument kinda goes both ways....
You pay for customisation, I pay for strict and present lore. Who wins?
And fantasy non-human races are often like that because many find it fun. I don't want Orcs to be understandable human beings. I want them to be something else.
We don't have anything of comparable intelligence here on earth but overall prejudices go pretty well for other species. Hippos are overall lazy beasts who sit in the water all day unless you come into their territory in which case they kill you. That's what hippos do. That's what hippos are. If a hippo were to approach me and started talking about how misunderstood he felt and how he was affected by the prejudices we have about his species he wouldn't be a hippo.
I don't want to have societies of blue-skinned humans with pointy ears having human problems while living human lives.
I want societies of races that are so alien that the only way for me to understand them is to stereotype them into something extreme because they're just not human. They just don't think like we do. Their ratio doesn't work like ours. Orcs kill things that insult their honor, that's how their brains work. That's how their society works.
We don't stereotype humans because we are human. We understand ourselves pretty well. Other races we don't understand. So in order to make them "other" our only option is to stereotype. Doing anything else just gives you differently shaped humans.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I voted "Some class restrictions, but not many." and here's why:
IMO, each faction should have their own unique classes. The worst part for me about Rift is how both the Guardians and Defiants share the exact same classes. It makes it really hard to be immersed within the story/lore. Guardians and Defiants are suppose to be at war with each other because of their vast differences. Guardians want to do things the way they've always have whereas the Defiants have more of a futuristic mindset with their machinery, so why do they fight the SAME exact way with the SAME exact skills? It just doesn't make 1 bit of sense.
I love how Lotro separated what races can do what. Loremasters were amongst the smartest beings in the world. No offense but Dwarves and Hobbits have no business being Loremasters and I'm glad Turbine thought that way too. Letting every race be every profession so severely cuts down on a game's replay-ability it isn't even funny.
I just think it is quite rigid thinking that make all Ogres dumb brutes and all Dark Elves cunning evil guys. I always found this idea absurd. Yeah, fantasy non human races often are like that. Yadda yadda. Like the warlike Klingons or the greedy Ferengi. I just found that part of Sci-Fi and Fantasy always absurd. It is a typical human prejudice to think they themselves are all individuals and different but the OTHERS are all clones and alike. I haven't seen HUMANS being branded into stereotypes, it's always the others. This sort of thinking is understandable from the day Fantasy and Sci-Fi was made; but these days... it just doesn't make sense. Essentially, a society like the Drow could just not exist, the same goes for Klingons or whatever. They are WAAYY over stereotyped. I always saw this more as the prejudice through human eyes than the reality of these races.
That argument kinda goes both ways....
You pay for customisation, I pay for strict and present lore. Who wins?
And fantasy non-human races are often like that because many find it fun. I don't want Orcs to be understandable human beings. I want them to be something else.
We don't have anything of comparable intelligence here on earth but overall prejudices go pretty well for other species. Hippos are overall lazy beasts who sit in the water all day unless you come into their territory in which case they kill you. That's what hippos do. That's what hippos are. If a hippo were to approach me and started talking about how misunderstood he felt and how he was affected by the prejudices we have about his species he wouldn't be a hippo.
I don't want to have societies of blue-skinned humans with pointy ears having human problems while living human lives.
I want societies of races that are so alien that the only way for me to understand them is to stereotype them into something extreme because they're just not human. They just don't think like we do. Their ratio doesn't work like ours. Orcs kill things that insult their honor, that's how their brains work. That's how their society works.
We don't stereotype humans because we are human. We understand ourselves pretty well. Other races we don't understand. So in order to make them "other" our only option is to stereotype. Doing anything else just gives you differently shaped humans.
Well this is where the conflict is, eh? Players wanting it their way.
Some players are the min/max type. IN this case, either way works, the choice is not lore based or asthetic. It's all math
Some players are the RP type. In this case, it matters alot! and having restrictions or "prefered' helps them live in a world full of races who more or less behave that way.
Some players( like me), go for Asthetic. I want a Hobbit Champion, darnnit!! I dont care about stats and lore!
either way,..you as a Dev will make the final choice as you know your game and how it all fits.
If you restrict races to certain classes, you better make sure they are Fun to play! and Balanced!
If you don't but give penalties based on Race, there better be a positive somewhere in there. Maybe an Ogre Mage has less spell points or dmg, BUT much more HP and armor ability to compensate.
In essense, you are not just making a Race.
What you call RACE would be a Trait Line in another game. The path of HEaler, the Path of Combat MEdic.
I just think it is quite rigid thinking that make all Ogres dumb brutes and all Dark Elves cunning evil guys. I always found this idea absurd. Yeah, fantasy non human races often are like that. Yadda yadda. Like the warlike Klingons or the greedy Ferengi. I just found that part of Sci-Fi and Fantasy always absurd. It is a typical human prejudice to think they themselves are all individuals and different but the OTHERS are all clones and alike. I haven't seen HUMANS being branded into stereotypes, it's always the others. This sort of thinking is understandable from the day Fantasy and Sci-Fi was made; but these days... it just doesn't make sense. Essentially, a society like the Drow could just not exist, the same goes for Klingons or whatever. They are WAAYY over stereotyped. I always saw this more as the prejudice through human eyes than the reality of these races.
That argument kinda goes both ways....
You pay for customisation, I pay for strict and present lore. Who wins?
The person playing the game as it was intended.
For example, a person bothered by well-spoken spellcasting orcs would probably not be happy with Lineage 2. Likewise, a person playing Lineage 2 that feels a female Drow doesn't always have to look like an expensive whore is probably playing the wrong game, as well.
Somewhat related but not... The whole thing about every race being completely different just seems backwards to me. Every race and culture, especially when mixed together and not kept isolated from each other, very quicly starts to adopt other cultural traits, customs and speech. People, despite often proving othewise, are capable of adapting and learning.
If you put an Ogre in NYC for a year, he'd be folding his pizza slice in half and changing which pocket his wallet goes in based on the crowd he is around. He'd eventually start dropping the letter 'r' from various words and he'd figure out taht walking down the center of the sidewalk is the least efficient way to get anywhere. Basically, he'd start to talk and act like a New Yorker (whether or not that's a good thing is a debate for another topic ).
So if I meet a well-spoken ogre, a good Drow, a magnanimous Ferengi, a factory-working wood elf or a cuddly dragon I'm not going to let it ruin my world because, honestly, as both a NYer and a roleplayer that stuff is all plausible. While I agree that appearance often affects perception and plausibility of a character (stone golem ninja seem a bit far fetched), I'm all for game lore and mechanics supporting the melding of races and cultures.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
For example, a person bothered by well-spoken spellcasting orcs would probably not be happy with Lineage 2. Likewise, a person playing Lineage 2 that feels a female Drow doesn't always have to look like an expensive whore is probably playing the wrong game, as well.
Somewhat related but not... The whole thing about every race being completely different just seems backwards to me. Every race and culture, especially when mixed together and not kept isolated from each other, very quicly starts to adopt other cultural traits, customs and speech. People, despite often proving othewise, are capable of adapting and learning.
If you put an Ogre in NYC for a year, he'd be folding his pizza slice in half and changing which pocket his wallet goes in based on the crowd he is around. He'd eventually start dropping the letter 'r' from various words and he'd figure out taht walking down the center of the sidewalk is the least efficient way to get anywhere. Basically, he'd start to talk and act like a New Yorker (whether or not that's a good thing is a debate for another topic ).
So if I meet a well-spoken ogre, a good Drow, a magnanimous Ferengi, a factory-working wood elf or a cuddly dragon I'm not going to let it ruin my world because, honestly, as both a NYer and a roleplayer that stuff is all plausible. While I agree that appearance often affects perception and plausibility of a character (stone golem ninja seem a bit far fetched), I'm all for game lore and mechanics supporting the melding of races and cultures.
I agree with you on the playing the game as intended. Games have different intended audiences. If a game is clearly going for customisation then you shouldn't whine if lore takes a backseat.
I disagree however that culture transfers across species. You're assuming an ogre is basically just a different sized humans. You're assuming their brains process information the same way. That hormones affect them the same way etc.
What if ogres have problems filtering incoming sensory information like some people have ( commonly seen in for example autism ). They wouldn't adept to NYC. They'd go crazy from sensory overload and would likely go on a violent rampage.
What if Drow simply lack the brain regions necesarry for empathy? They would be incapable of understanding that others in fact feel emotion or anything at all. To them there'd be no difference between moving inanimate objects and living beings. That'd be a pretty good cause for "evil". They'd 'maintain' and 'assist' other living beings as long as they had use to them. But the moment their use ended they'd throw them away like a broken tool. Because they're incapable of seeing them as any more. They're simply incapable of empathy.
What if Ferengi spend their entire lives in basically a puberal state of hormonic balance? They'd always be self-centered and greedy. Their hormones would leave them little choice. That would simply be the way they are.
What if wood elves are by nature extremely claustrophobic. Merely being in an enclosed space would cause them to panic. A reaction that's ingrained so deeply into them that removing it would basically cause them to turn so apathic that they'd stop living. There are butterflies in this world with migration ingrained in them from birth. They didn't learn to migrate. They can't unlearn to migrate. They migrate. End of story.
What if dragons experience physical pain on the slightest touches? They wouldn't ever turn cuddly. They'd bite your head off every single time. And if you ever managed to train them to ignore the pain reflex there wouldn't be much of a dragon personality left, let alone a cuddly one.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I voted some restrictions and here is why. Some races may have a "special" class open to only members of their race. For instance lets say a specific elven kingdom offers the world's only druids, it wouldn't make sense in terms of story to have a dwarven druid then.
I agree with you on the playing the game as intended. Games have different intended audiences. If a game is clearly going for customisation then you shouldn't whine if lore takes a backseat.
I disagree however that culture transfers across species. You're assuming an ogre is basically just a different sized humans. You're assuming their brains process information the same way. That hormones affect them the same way etc.
What if ogres have problems filtering incoming sensory information like some people have ( commonly seen in for example autism ). They wouldn't adept to NYC. They'd go crazy from sensory overload and would likely go on a violent rampage.
What if Drow simply lack the brain regions necesarry for empathy? They would be incapable of understanding that others in fact feel emotion or anything at all. To them there'd be no difference between moving inanimate objects and living beings. That'd be a pretty good cause for "evil". They'd 'maintain' and 'assist' other living beings as long as they had use to them. But the moment their use ended they'd throw them away like a broken tool. Because they're incapable of seeing them as any more. They're simply incapable of empathy.
What if Ferengi spend their entire lives in basically a puberal state of hormonic balance? They'd always be self-centered and greedy. Their hormones would leave them little choice. That would simply be the way they are.
What if wood elves are by nature extremely claustrophobic. Merely being in an enclosed space would cause them to panic. A reaction that's ingrained so deeply into them that removing it would basically cause them to turn so apathic that they'd stop living. There are butterflies in this world with migration ingrained in them from birth. They didn't learn to migrate. They can't unlearn to migrate. They migrate. End of story.
What if dragons experience physical pain on the slightest touches? They wouldn't ever turn cuddly. They'd bite your head off every single time. And if you ever managed to train them to ignore the pain reflex there wouldn't be much of a dragon personality left, let alone a cuddly one.
Interesting and insightful awesomeness. I like the way you think, gobla!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
For example, a person bothered by well-spoken spellcasting orcs would probably not be happy with Lineage 2. Likewise, a person playing Lineage 2 that feels a female Drow doesn't always have to look like an expensive whore is probably playing the wrong game, as well.
Somewhat related but not... The whole thing about every race being completely different just seems backwards to me. Every race and culture, especially when mixed together and not kept isolated from each other, very quicly starts to adopt other cultural traits, customs and speech. People, despite often proving othewise, are capable of adapting and learning.
If you put an Ogre in NYC for a year, he'd be folding his pizza slice in half and changing which pocket his wallet goes in based on the crowd he is around. He'd eventually start dropping the letter 'r' from various words and he'd figure out taht walking down the center of the sidewalk is the least efficient way to get anywhere. Basically, he'd start to talk and act like a New Yorker (whether or not that's a good thing is a debate for another topic ).
So if I meet a well-spoken ogre, a good Drow, a magnanimous Ferengi, a factory-working wood elf or a cuddly dragon I'm not going to let it ruin my world because, honestly, as both a NYer and a roleplayer that stuff is all plausible. While I agree that appearance often affects perception and plausibility of a character (stone golem ninja seem a bit far fetched), I'm all for game lore and mechanics supporting the melding of races and cultures.
I agree with you on the playing the game as intended. Games have different intended audiences. If a game is clearly going for customisation then you shouldn't whine if lore takes a backseat.
I disagree however that culture transfers across species. You're assuming an ogre is basically just a different sized humans. You're assuming their brains process information the same way. That hormones affect them the same way etc.
What if ogres have problems filtering incoming sensory information like some people have ( commonly seen in for example autism ). They wouldn't adept to NYC. They'd go crazy from sensory overload and would likely go on a violent rampage.
What if Drow simply lack the brain regions necesarry for empathy? They would be incapable of understanding that others in fact feel emotion or anything at all. To them there'd be no difference between moving inanimate objects and living beings. That'd be a pretty good cause for "evil". They'd 'maintain' and 'assist' other living beings as long as they had use to them. But the moment their use ended they'd throw them away like a broken tool. Because they're incapable of seeing them as any more. They're simply incapable of empathy.
What if Ferengi spend their entire lives in basically a puberal state of hormonic balance? They'd always be self-centered and greedy. Their hormones would leave them little choice. That would simply be the way they are.
What if wood elves are by nature extremely claustrophobic. Merely being in an enclosed space would cause them to panic. A reaction that's ingrained so deeply into them that removing it would basically cause them to turn so apathic that they'd stop living. There are butterflies in this world with migration ingrained in them from birth. They didn't learn to migrate. They can't unlearn to migrate. They migrate. End of story.
What if dragons experience physical pain on the slightest touches? They wouldn't ever turn cuddly. They'd bite your head off every single time. And if you ever managed to train them to ignore the pain reflex there wouldn't be much of a dragon personality left, let alone a cuddly one.
From those examples the races would never group. There has to be some cross cultural understanding or there would be no point in having other races in a game to group with. Maybe your exmaples do hold true for NPCs but the toon you play has to be diffrent.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
From those examples the races would never group. There has to be some cross cultural understanding or there would be no point in having other races in a game to group with. Maybe your exmaples do hold true for NPCs but the toon you play has to be diffrent.
Why wouldn't they group?
Adults associate with kids in puberty all the time. There's a pretty high chance that there's a high-functioning autistic person in your group of acquaintances without you knowing ( he may not even know himself ).
Or if that's too human-like then look at people training horses. Dolphins training people. Interactions between house cats/dogs and people. I greatly value my cat. My cat seems pretty fond of me as well ( can't be too sure with cats though.... ). If my cat kept his personality but got 10 times as big I'd take him adventuring any day.
Sure, the chances of them marrying or becoming BFFs are pretty dang low. But when has that become the norm of fantasy races?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I voted for Some class restrictions, but not many.
When some mmos who use this approach, usually the game designers use physical attritubes and lore for deciding factors. For an example, a gnome wouldn't be a good pick for a tanking class based on height and strength.
I think it could get rather interesting if your class is modified based on the race you choose. For an example, a Barbarian Warrior would be a better mitigation tank verses a Gnome Warrior that would be a better aggro tank. I am not sure if that is done in any current mmo titles now. I wonder if implemented correctly would any of the community feel that might be a good or bad idea.
From those examples the races would never group. There has to be some cross cultural understanding or there would be no point in having other races in a game to group with. Maybe your exmaples do hold true for NPCs but the toon you play has to be diffrent.
Why wouldn't they group?
Adults associate with kids in puberty all the time. There's a pretty high chance that there's a high-functioning autistic person in your group of acquaintances without you knowing ( he may not even know himself ).
Or if that's too human-like then look at people training horses. Dolphins training people. Interactions between house cats/dogs and people. I greatly value my cat. My cat seems pretty fond of me as well ( can't be too sure with cats though.... ). If my cat kept his personality but got 10 times as big I'd take him adventuring any day.
Sure, the chances of them marrying or becoming BFFs are pretty dang low. But when has that become the norm of fantasy races?
Pets have been trained for centuries to be domestic thats why we can hang out with them. How come not everyone has a lion because most lickely they would rip your throat and have you for lunch. Do people train them sure but things go wrong with the best of them.
The children example they are our children! not much more to say on that. They are not a diffrent race.
If you knew an ogre was going to bash your brains at some point during a quest you would not group with them or a dark elf that stabbs you in the back becuae that part in dark elf brain that would make them say maybe I should not do this is missing.
I just think it would be nice to have all races play all classes but have down sides to the race class combo.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
I just think it is quite rigid thinking that make all Ogres dumb brutes and all Dark Elves cunning evil guys. I always found this idea absurd. Yeah, fantasy non human races often are like that. Yadda yadda. Like the warlike Klingons or the greedy Ferengi. I just found that part of Sci-Fi and Fantasy always absurd. It is a typical human prejudice to think they themselves are all individuals and different but the OTHERS are all clones and alike. I haven't seen HUMANS being branded into stereotypes, it's always the others. This sort of thinking is understandable from the day Fantasy and Sci-Fi was made; but these days... it just doesn't make sense. Essentially, a society like the Drow could just not exist, the same goes for Klingons or whatever. They are WAAYY over stereotyped. I always saw this more as the prejudice through human eyes than the reality of these races.
That argument kinda goes both ways....
You pay for customisation, I pay for strict and present lore. Who wins?
And fantasy non-human races are often like that because many find it fun. I don't want Orcs to be understandable human beings. I want them to be something else.
We don't have anything of comparable intelligence here on earth but overall prejudices go pretty well for other species. Hippos are overall lazy beasts who sit in the water all day unless you come into their territory in which case they kill you. That's what hippos do. That's what hippos are. If a hippo were to approach me and started talking about how misunderstood he felt and how he was affected by the prejudices we have about his species he wouldn't be a hippo.
I don't want to have societies of blue-skinned humans with pointy ears having human problems while living human lives.
I want societies of races that are so alien that the only way for me to understand them is to stereotype them into something extreme because they're just not human. They just don't think like we do. Their ratio doesn't work like ours. Orcs kill things that insult their honor, that's how their brains work. That's how their society works.
We don't stereotype humans because we are human. We understand ourselves pretty well. Other races we don't understand. So in order to make them "other" our only option is to stereotype. Doing anything else just gives you differently shaped humans.
It is illogical. Again. You don't pay to decide MY doings. You pay for YOUR fantasy. You can only command MINE if you'd pay mine.
There, logic isn't so difficult, eh?
We have different nations. "All Americans are fat and eat burgers, all Russians are drunkards who sing, all Germans are Nazis, all French are coward but romantic." People always think THEIR nation is so individual and everyone in it is unique but the OTHERS are stereotypes.
It's a GAME. It serves my entertainment, I pay. So I want my wishes in it. Whats so difficult to grasp? If you want restrictions: fine: you CAN restrict yourself. Just don't tell other people what to do, ja ne? Some people just seek any excuse to bully and order other people around. YOU DON'T PLAY THIS AND THAT!... It's eloquent bullying. But bullying nontheless.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Pets have been trained for centuries to be domestic thats why we can hang out with them. How come not everyone has a lion because most lickely they would rip your throat and have you for lunch. Do people train them sure but things go wrong with the best of them.
The children example they are our children! not much more to say on that. They are not a diffrent race.
If you knew an ogre was going to bash your brains at some point during a quest you would not group with them or a dark elf that stabbs you in the back becuae that part in dark elf brain that would make them say maybe I should not do this is missing.
I just think it would be nice to have all races play all classes but have down sides to the race class combo.
That ogre from my example wouldn't bash your brains in unless you were taking him into a traffic jam where everyone is sounding their claxons. That Dark elf wouldn't stab you in the back as long as you were usefull to him.
Besides, the races don't have to be complete utter aliens who don't even have brains but some other organ to think with. A race that always retained the mind of a 5-year old would be pretty interesting.
Children view the world in vastly different ways then we do. Up until a certain age ( pretty young, but it's there ) they're incapable of recognising that other people have different thoughts then they do. Imagine a race that never learned that. They'd always think that the entire world knew everything they knew, they'd always think that the entire world shared their opinions and when told otherwise wouldn't be able to grasp it ( try imagining how incredibly large the universe is, take the largest distance you can picture and start doubling it until your brain feels like it's melting. That's not grasping it. )
Such a race you could easily party with. But they'd still be completely different then humans.
Besides by your reasoning people shouldn't ever party with warlocks ( lore-wise likely to sacrifice your soul to their dark gods ), assassins ( lore-wise likely to take contracts to kill you ), necromancers ( lore-wise likely to kill you and perform experiments on your corpse ), mages ( lore-wise often likely to miscast and cause arcane accidents of great scale ) etc.
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It is illogical. Again. You don't pay to decide MY doings. You pay for YOUR fantasy. You can only command MINE if you'd pay mine.
There, logic isn't so difficult, eh?
We have different nations. "All Americans are fat and eat burgers, all Russians are drunkards who sing, all Germans are Nazis, all French are coward but romantic." People always think THEIR nation is so individual and everyone in it is unique but the OTHERS are stereotypes.
It's a GAME. It serves my entertainment, I pay. So so I want my wishes in it. Whats so difficult to grasp? If you want restrictions: fine: you CAN restrict yourself. Just don't tell other people what to do, ja ne?
Look, dude. I'm not holding a gun to your head telling you to play the same game I'm playing.
You play the games you like. I'll play the ones I like. There, logic isn't so difficult, eh?
I don't think my nation is so individual and all others are stereotypes, where did you get that?
As you say, it's a game. It doesn't have to hold to the standars that exist in real life.
I'll play games with hard-coded restrictions where people are forced to adhere to the basic lore. You play games centered on customisation. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what type of game I like and why I wouldn't like your type of game.
I'm sorry but there's more then one game. We don't all have to play the same thing. It's okay if you wouldn't touch the games I enjoy with a ten foot pole. Nobody's asking you too.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Comments
Where is the "Doesn't matter" option. I am amazed so many people have strong opinions about this (I guess this IS the internet afterall, where everyone has strong opinions). But personally I have played in both systems and as long as the decision makes sense (lore or logically) then I like both systems.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
If it makes sense due to lore and honest racial limits (as someone else mentioned giant rogues) fine. I was always disappointed there was no stygian warrior class in AoC. I couldn't figue out why.
That is the downside of wow caving into the must have it my way generation. I thought it added a nice flavor to have unique classes on a side. DOAC did a very good job of offering different races and classes.
In addition to the Meowhead reasoning, I see it from another point of view. Giving unlocks is something for those players who like to work to earn special classes/races. Just like giving PVP players some pvp in a game or raiders something to raid. For those who cry about why can't I have it now, it's annoying because they pay for the game therefore they should have it their way.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It always seemed pretty unrealistic and pointless to me to exclude some races from using certain classes.
Also kind of discriminative, boarderline racist, and kind of sends out a negavitive message if you really think about it (ie; the game is basically telling you, that you cannot be whatever you want to be in life, not unless you were born a certain way).
And? I mean, it's MY fantasy. I pay, I decide. ^^
I mean, millions of people wear the same oh so individual clothing, and the shops of course make us believe how... individual I look with just THESE jeans or just THAT jacket. Or car. Or whatever. It is the way things are in capitalism.
Fact is, in MMOs like EQ2, where all combinations are possible, I still was the only Darkelf Paladin I had ever met in 4+ years. So while in theory you might say so, in reality people still stick 80% to the known and proven. I think this entire line of argumentation is a bit elitist. Like in SWG, some people (with MUCH private time *cough*) always argued against opening Jedi to all, because it wasn't canon and the "everyone will be Jedi" argument. It just wasn't true in SWG. Yes in the beginning many tried it out! But after a while, you could see the same balance again. And again the bottom line was: I pay, I decide. I don't like this sort of elitism.
I just think it is quite rigid thinking that make all Ogres dumb brutes and all Dark Elves cunning evil guys. I always found this idea absurd. Yeah, fantasy non human races often are like that. Yadda yadda. Like the warlike Klingons or the greedy Ferengi. I just found that part of Sci-Fi and Fantasy always absurd. It is a typical human prejudice to think they themselves are all individuals and different but the OTHERS are all clones and alike. I haven't seen HUMANS being branded into stereotypes, it's always the others. This sort of thinking is understandable from the day Fantasy and Sci-Fi was made; but these days... it just doesn't make sense. Essentially, a society like the Drow could just not exist, the same goes for Klingons or whatever. They are WAAYY over stereotyped. I always saw this more as the prejudice through human eyes than the reality of these races.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If you want every race to be every class then just throw lore out the window and stop pretending to be making a virtual world and admit you're just making an arcadey game.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Idk.. i never thought I'd see a dark elf ranger be workable till i read forgotten realms
Just because you can't imagine a story about how a class / race could come to be... doesn't mean somebody else couldn't
In many games, classes have backgrounds and are restricted. In DAoC heretics were raised purely underground, as icconu, and no other race had ever been there before so there was no way for them to be a heretic. Or, being a wizard required high intelligence, so an ogre couldn't learn to be a wizard, that sort of stuff.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Very true! But isn't that what games are becoming? Kill the boss and take your chances at a drop VS kill a boss get a badge then rinse and repeat until number of badges >= uber gear cost.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Yah, I'm saying I dont think class lockout by race should be a necessary feature when designing a game.
Let people play an Ogre wizard.. sure they might not be as "good" at dealing damage as an elf wizard.. and npc's might laugh at him and charge him more for spell components... but sometimes its fun to not be a cookie cutter character.
That argument kinda goes both ways....
You pay for customisation, I pay for strict and present lore. Who wins?
And fantasy non-human races are often like that because many find it fun. I don't want Orcs to be understandable human beings. I want them to be something else.
We don't have anything of comparable intelligence here on earth but overall prejudices go pretty well for other species. Hippos are overall lazy beasts who sit in the water all day unless you come into their territory in which case they kill you. That's what hippos do. That's what hippos are. If a hippo were to approach me and started talking about how misunderstood he felt and how he was affected by the prejudices we have about his species he wouldn't be a hippo.
I don't want to have societies of blue-skinned humans with pointy ears having human problems while living human lives.
I want societies of races that are so alien that the only way for me to understand them is to stereotype them into something extreme because they're just not human. They just don't think like we do. Their ratio doesn't work like ours. Orcs kill things that insult their honor, that's how their brains work. That's how their society works.
We don't stereotype humans because we are human. We understand ourselves pretty well. Other races we don't understand. So in order to make them "other" our only option is to stereotype. Doing anything else just gives you differently shaped humans.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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I voted "Some class restrictions, but not many." and here's why:
IMO, each faction should have their own unique classes. The worst part for me about Rift is how both the Guardians and Defiants share the exact same classes. It makes it really hard to be immersed within the story/lore. Guardians and Defiants are suppose to be at war with each other because of their vast differences. Guardians want to do things the way they've always have whereas the Defiants have more of a futuristic mindset with their machinery, so why do they fight the SAME exact way with the SAME exact skills? It just doesn't make 1 bit of sense.
I love how Lotro separated what races can do what. Loremasters were amongst the smartest beings in the world. No offense but Dwarves and Hobbits have no business being Loremasters and I'm glad Turbine thought that way too. Letting every race be every profession so severely cuts down on a game's replay-ability it isn't even funny.
Well this is where the conflict is, eh? Players wanting it their way.
Some players are the min/max type. IN this case, either way works, the choice is not lore based or asthetic. It's all math
Some players are the RP type. In this case, it matters alot! and having restrictions or "prefered' helps them live in a world full of races who more or less behave that way.
Some players( like me), go for Asthetic. I want a Hobbit Champion, darnnit!! I dont care about stats and lore!
either way,..you as a Dev will make the final choice as you know your game and how it all fits.
If you restrict races to certain classes, you better make sure they are Fun to play! and Balanced!
If you don't but give penalties based on Race, there better be a positive somewhere in there. Maybe an Ogre Mage has less spell points or dmg, BUT much more HP and armor ability to compensate.
In essense, you are not just making a Race.
What you call RACE would be a Trait Line in another game. The path of HEaler, the Path of Combat MEdic.
my 2 copper
Actually its not your fantasy. You're paying to particiapte in someone else's shared fantasy.
The person playing the game as it was intended.
For example, a person bothered by well-spoken spellcasting orcs would probably not be happy with Lineage 2. Likewise, a person playing Lineage 2 that feels a female Drow doesn't always have to look like an expensive whore is probably playing the wrong game, as well.
Somewhat related but not... The whole thing about every race being completely different just seems backwards to me. Every race and culture, especially when mixed together and not kept isolated from each other, very quicly starts to adopt other cultural traits, customs and speech. People, despite often proving othewise, are capable of adapting and learning.
If you put an Ogre in NYC for a year, he'd be folding his pizza slice in half and changing which pocket his wallet goes in based on the crowd he is around. He'd eventually start dropping the letter 'r' from various words and he'd figure out taht walking down the center of the sidewalk is the least efficient way to get anywhere. Basically, he'd start to talk and act like a New Yorker (whether or not that's a good thing is a debate for another topic
So if I meet a well-spoken ogre, a good Drow, a magnanimous Ferengi, a factory-working wood elf or a cuddly dragon I'm not going to let it ruin my world because, honestly, as both a NYer and a roleplayer that stuff is all plausible. While I agree that appearance often affects perception and plausibility of a character (stone golem ninja seem a bit far fetched), I'm all for game lore and mechanics supporting the melding of races and cultures.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree with you on the playing the game as intended. Games have different intended audiences. If a game is clearly going for customisation then you shouldn't whine if lore takes a backseat.
I disagree however that culture transfers across species. You're assuming an ogre is basically just a different sized humans. You're assuming their brains process information the same way. That hormones affect them the same way etc.
What if ogres have problems filtering incoming sensory information like some people have ( commonly seen in for example autism ). They wouldn't adept to NYC. They'd go crazy from sensory overload and would likely go on a violent rampage.
What if Drow simply lack the brain regions necesarry for empathy? They would be incapable of understanding that others in fact feel emotion or anything at all. To them there'd be no difference between moving inanimate objects and living beings. That'd be a pretty good cause for "evil". They'd 'maintain' and 'assist' other living beings as long as they had use to them. But the moment their use ended they'd throw them away like a broken tool. Because they're incapable of seeing them as any more. They're simply incapable of empathy.
What if Ferengi spend their entire lives in basically a puberal state of hormonic balance? They'd always be self-centered and greedy. Their hormones would leave them little choice. That would simply be the way they are.
What if wood elves are by nature extremely claustrophobic. Merely being in an enclosed space would cause them to panic. A reaction that's ingrained so deeply into them that removing it would basically cause them to turn so apathic that they'd stop living. There are butterflies in this world with migration ingrained in them from birth. They didn't learn to migrate. They can't unlearn to migrate. They migrate. End of story.
What if dragons experience physical pain on the slightest touches? They wouldn't ever turn cuddly. They'd bite your head off every single time. And if you ever managed to train them to ignore the pain reflex there wouldn't be much of a dragon personality left, let alone a cuddly one.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I voted some restrictions and here is why. Some races may have a "special" class open to only members of their race. For instance lets say a specific elven kingdom offers the world's only druids, it wouldn't make sense in terms of story to have a dwarven druid then.
Interesting and insightful awesomeness.
I like the way you think, gobla!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
From those examples the races would never group. There has to be some cross cultural understanding or there would be no point in having other races in a game to group with. Maybe your exmaples do hold true for NPCs but the toon you play has to be diffrent.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
Why wouldn't they group?
Adults associate with kids in puberty all the time. There's a pretty high chance that there's a high-functioning autistic person in your group of acquaintances without you knowing ( he may not even know himself ).
Or if that's too human-like then look at people training horses. Dolphins training people. Interactions between house cats/dogs and people. I greatly value my cat. My cat seems pretty fond of me as well ( can't be too sure with cats though.... ). If my cat kept his personality but got 10 times as big I'd take him adventuring any day.
Sure, the chances of them marrying or becoming BFFs are pretty dang low. But when has that become the norm of fantasy races?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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I voted for Some class restrictions, but not many.
When some mmos who use this approach, usually the game designers use physical attritubes and lore for deciding factors. For an example, a gnome wouldn't be a good pick for a tanking class based on height and strength.
I think it could get rather interesting if your class is modified based on the race you choose. For an example, a Barbarian Warrior would be a better mitigation tank verses a Gnome Warrior that would be a better aggro tank. I am not sure if that is done in any current mmo titles now. I wonder if implemented correctly would any of the community feel that might be a good or bad idea.
Pets have been trained for centuries to be domestic thats why we can hang out with them. How come not everyone has a lion because most lickely they would rip your throat and have you for lunch. Do people train them sure but things go wrong with the best of them.
The children example they are our children! not much more to say on that. They are not a diffrent race.
If you knew an ogre was going to bash your brains at some point during a quest you would not group with them or a dark elf that stabbs you in the back becuae that part in dark elf brain that would make them say maybe I should not do this is missing.
I just think it would be nice to have all races play all classes but have down sides to the race class combo.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
It is illogical. Again. You don't pay to decide MY doings. You pay for YOUR fantasy. You can only command MINE if you'd pay mine.
There, logic isn't so difficult, eh?
We have different nations. "All Americans are fat and eat burgers, all Russians are drunkards who sing, all Germans are Nazis, all French are coward but romantic." People always think THEIR nation is so individual and everyone in it is unique but the OTHERS are stereotypes.
It's a GAME. It serves my entertainment, I pay. So I want my wishes in it. Whats so difficult to grasp? If you want restrictions: fine: you CAN restrict yourself. Just don't tell other people what to do, ja ne? Some people just seek any excuse to bully and order other people around. YOU DON'T PLAY THIS AND THAT!... It's eloquent bullying. But bullying nontheless.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
That ogre from my example wouldn't bash your brains in unless you were taking him into a traffic jam where everyone is sounding their claxons. That Dark elf wouldn't stab you in the back as long as you were usefull to him.
Besides, the races don't have to be complete utter aliens who don't even have brains but some other organ to think with. A race that always retained the mind of a 5-year old would be pretty interesting.
Children view the world in vastly different ways then we do. Up until a certain age ( pretty young, but it's there ) they're incapable of recognising that other people have different thoughts then they do. Imagine a race that never learned that. They'd always think that the entire world knew everything they knew, they'd always think that the entire world shared their opinions and when told otherwise wouldn't be able to grasp it ( try imagining how incredibly large the universe is, take the largest distance you can picture and start doubling it until your brain feels like it's melting. That's not grasping it. )
Such a race you could easily party with. But they'd still be completely different then humans.
Besides by your reasoning people shouldn't ever party with warlocks ( lore-wise likely to sacrifice your soul to their dark gods ), assassins ( lore-wise likely to take contracts to kill you ), necromancers ( lore-wise likely to kill you and perform experiments on your corpse ), mages ( lore-wise often likely to miscast and cause arcane accidents of great scale ) etc.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Look, dude. I'm not holding a gun to your head telling you to play the same game I'm playing.
You play the games you like. I'll play the ones I like. There, logic isn't so difficult, eh?
I don't think my nation is so individual and all others are stereotypes, where did you get that?
As you say, it's a game. It doesn't have to hold to the standars that exist in real life.
I'll play games with hard-coded restrictions where people are forced to adhere to the basic lore. You play games centered on customisation. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what type of game I like and why I wouldn't like your type of game.
I'm sorry but there's more then one game. We don't all have to play the same thing. It's okay if you wouldn't touch the games I enjoy with a ten foot pole. Nobody's asking you too.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")