Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
General: Cautious Optimism and The Old Republic
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
In his travels around the 'Net, Lead Writer Bill Murphy has noticed a trend among some to assign "love or hate" titles to the opinions expressed about a few games here at MMORPG.com. Particularly vocal are those who claim that MMORPG.com either loves or hates (depending on which side the writer's on) Rift and Star Wars: The Old Republic. In today's column, Bill takes on that notion and gives his take on The Old Republic and how some misconstrue cautious optimism as 'hate'. Check it out!
On Rift’s forums, they say we love TOR and hate Rift. In truth: we’re just a small staff that gives as much attention to every game we can, and we write exactly how we feel on any and every subject. The things we write won’t always be agreed with, and they certainly don’t represent “fact”. But we’ve tread that ground before. So instead, let me focus this week’s column on the way I’m personally approaching Star Wars: The Old Republic - with a great deal of cautious optimism. And I hope no one mistakes this for “hate”. It’s merely the way in which any Star Wars fan should approach a game that could be so phenomenally great or catastrophically terrible. In my short time with the game at recent shows, I have reason to believe it’s the former… but I’m not ready to swear fealty just yet.
Read more of Bill Murphy's column Cautious Optimism and The Old Republic.
)
Comments
Nice article, and I'd say it's pretty close to how I feel about it all. Good read.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think there is a legitimate cause for conern for a lot of people to give this title a skeptical eye. As you stated it does not really reinvent the wheel here, so for a lot of people who are completely beaten to death of the same model the genre has been churning out the last few years, there's a potential red flag.
The fact that it is Star Wars does not warrant any leniency from me personally, we have watched big name developers completely shit all over all of our favorite IPs and turn them into garbage reskins of games we have already played. Bioware makes good single-player RPGs, but this is hardly the same thing especially when you are drafting a lot of the same Mythic "talent" that decimated the Warhammer franchise. Star wars has such massive lore and I think that some of the decisions to keep some aspects on the rails really feels like a missed opportunity to really capitalize on the glory that could be, and probably won't.
I'm glad they are focusing on the story element to a degree, but I think most people would trade the hours of voice overs for a long lasting game with a meaningful endgame. There has not really been as much information regarding the endgame. Much like Rift (the example you used) I know a lot of people who ran the gambit and are now bored because the endgame is weak, and the PvP is meaningless. If anything else I am sure that if the story element is strong and different for each class or side, then there might be some replayability on that aspect.
All in all though, if you have been around this site and the genre for any length of time, you'd have to be a fool to not be skeptical after all the big name bombs and IP butchering that has gone on in these parts. The game could very well be the next big thing, but it's a song we have heard too many times around here and almost never comes true. Maybe when the rest of us get to play it finally, it will win us over. Who knows?
TwitchTV Partnered Streamer
MMORPG.com Spotlight Blog Writer
Co-Leader of Inquisition
Youtube Channel
I'll believe it when I see it and play it. I am expected a debacle on the scale of STO.
Space comabat being "sequenced" is a fail IMO.
I find the art style for characters to be overly cartoony and archade looking.
I think this game has been designed more for consoles than for PCs. Being released for PC first as the final beta testing.
If LA / BW spent over 100mil on this project, they did not get their monies worth IMO.
Time will tell.
fixed
Hehe, I feel for you Bill. Seems a lot of articles you write, end up looking a lot like 'disclaimers' aimed to appease the few prejudiced people who try to prosecute mmorpg.com on virtually anything distinctly positive or negative on just about any game.
It's like tight rope walking along the border of two basins, one containing salt water crocs and the other piranha's.
You're doing a great job at it though.
p.s. What Swtor class are you most looking forward to? To play as your main?
*gently shakes rope*
My brand new bloggity blog.
I think you make an excellent point:
"The Old Republic is about recapturing the epic feel of the films, and not about creating a living breathing universe to live in. I believe that so long as you approach BioWare’s game with this in mind you won’t be disappointed."
SWToR is not the game I've been waiting for. SWToR is not what I hoped MMOs would be.
But SWToR is likely still going to be a great game worth playing. You just have to see it for what it is, not for what you want it to be.
I'll still be hoping and waiting for an immersive sandbox world. But that doesn't mean I'm going to turn my back when another good thing seems to be coming my way.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Why is it in the MMO genre that people feel the formula needs to change with every release? Most genres have played the same for decades, shooters, RPG's, RTS's, fighters so on and so forth. For the most part all have stayed true to their original formula. Yet still remain fun to play for the respective audience they cater to.
Has it ever occured to those saying this that maybe what gets old is the presentaion of the genre, and not the formula? That's what gets old to me anyway, the lifelessness of the worlds and the characters that inhabit them. TOR seems to be taking a shot at changing that as does GW2.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
#1 reason why I'm upset with SWTOR:
With all the financial backing behind SWTOR (EA/LA/BioWare), we have absolutely no innovation via PvP.
I mean, really... Battlegrounds (Warzones)? It's a joke and I cannot believe the community endorses such a lack-luster form of PvP. There is absolutely no depth to their system. It's a mere side mini-game with massive gear incentive; thus, forcing me to play it.
I can tell you this.
Every game developer that says, "Hey let's make our game like World of Warcraft but we'll add something special like voice overs and a big name IP to cover up the 'clone features'" has fallen flat on it's face. This crap happens with each new MMO and history will repeat itself because Bioware has modeled SWTOR around the World of Warcraft model.
The only games that seem to make a difference in the online gaming world are games that are unique, challenging and FUN.
That guy next to you? Pointing a gun at your head? Forcing you to play warzones? Telling you all MMOs have to innovate?
What? There's nobody there?
So you mean there's nothing forcing you to play warzones? No rules dictating that all MMOs should innovate?
You don't have to play SWToR. It's okay if you don't. You don't have to like it. SWToR in turn doesn't have to impress you. It doesn't have to innovate.
It's okay, you don't have to be upset. There's other games out there. The world neither starts nor ends at SWToR.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I think this goes to a fundamental problem with gamers that "we" as a whole aren't ready or willing to accept. If you have an "endgame" then you will eventually reach a point where it all stops being fun. It's inherent in the word that you have come to the.....well, the end.
These are not actual worlds we will inhabit for short periods of time, they are set-piece game boards..or stages for a play rather and not real worlds full of real living things that creates the fluidity of life's circumstances. Once you've reached the last act there's really not much more to do than restart the play (alts) or keep doing the last scene over and over again ad nauseum (or the next expansion).
And what, exactly, constitutes "meaningful" as opposed to meaningless? Endgame or PvP? All endgames becomes repetative at some point just as playing a game with levels will eventually leave you at level cap at some point. Minus the ability to fundamentally change the virtual world you inhabit all PvP becomes the same. Repetative. Real meaning comes from resolution, which is pretty much not going to happen. Not in the traditional MMO field at least.
As an example...has anyone really "conquered" Restuss after all these years?
I will play TOR for the story, for the friends I'll make and play with, and to be able to shoot guns (even if in 3rd person view :P ) again in an MMO. But I'm not going to expect more out of it than what it can do, entertain me for awhile.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
A decent article.
For myslef, I am just Cautious about the Old Republic. I just have to play the game itself. There are some things that keep the Optimism part out of the equation for me.
#1: It's Bioware.
That's not a slam against them, it's a slam against every person I have talked to who has used that as reason #1 that TOR will be the best thing ever.
Me: "Why will ToR be awesome?"
Them: "It's Bioware." Long pause. "Oh...you need more?"
Sorry, that just doesn't do it for me. I really didn't play TOR. The combat part felt to... old school Final Fantasy to me. I know all about the game and know the story of course, but I didn't play Old Republic and just fall madly in love. So Bioware doesn't already have credit built up with me. I don't really have an opinion one way or the other about them.
#2: People are losing their minds about this game.
Seriously. A friend of mine the other day was gushing to me about how he joined a formguy's TOR guild. He has a website set up already and forums with lots of discussion and a Vent server and has registered the name on the TOR guild site and has alliances with guilds and a rival with another guild and and and and...
Seriously? For a game that may not even be out until 2012?
The scary thing is, this lind of thing is fairly common. People are making guilds and making strusture and recruiting... for a game that's not even out and that most have not EVEN played. As far as I am concerned, I am going to play the game, and if it is good and I really like it, a guild will be a logical next step. I watched a lot of "OMG this is going to be the BEST GAME ever" fleets kersplode after a month in too many recent releases to get ahead of myself. And I just don't see the benefit of working really hard on something not even out or that we don't know so much about yet.
#3: The Hype overdrive interacting with #1 and #2.
The hype foe this game is amazing, and the expectations through the roof. And I just don't think any game, no matter how good, can be what ToR has become in the minds of so many. But not only that. I remember a while back, say around the late 1990's, that there was this movie trilogy you all may have heard of called the Star Wars prequals. They were hyped to no end like crazy. Plus, they were being made by George Lucus, so they couldn't possibly be bad!
Now to be honest, I loved the prequals. But how many people didn't and freaked out because the movies didn't live up to their expectations? And in many ways there was no way that it could. People had spent years inagining the Clone Wars and how Anakin became Vader, and I'm sure none of those versions involved Jar Jar and a 9 year old Pod racing.
People are going to grab thisgame in droves, and then a bunch will leave after the first month or so because it's not what they had imagined. And a lot of thesev TOR guilds out there will have a lot of people who were members in the guild before the game came out than they will be after.
So I'm cautious. I am going to base my expectations on what the game is when I see it and play it. AND after I play it long enough for the new MMO "this is the best thing ever!!!" feeling to wear off. Then we'll see where it goes from there.
Lame argument. There's also open world pvp with objectives.
It seems WoW debunks your statement right away. WoW when it came out wasn't unique, it wasn't challenging compared to some older MMO's, but it sure was a lot of fun, and it did make a difference in online gaming.
Maybe it's time to consider that your idea of games that matter doesn't have to be the same idea that other MMO gamers have? Apparently a lot more MMO gamers can enjoy a game that is fun but less challenging or unique than there are MMO gamers that enjoy MMO games that are challenging and unique (but maybe less fun).
Keyword is fun, not unique gameplay.
For some people an MMO is less fun if it doesn't feel unique to them, but to the majority of MMO gamers it doesn't matter if an MMORPG isn't radically unique or highly challenging.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Bill,
I really can't see how anyone can legitimately claim that the STAFF writers here have given TOR bad press. Generaly, you guys seem to write pretty postively about MOST MMO's. You all seem far more lenient then most of us PLAYERS who post here. I won't go into reasons on why I think that might be....but as an organization...even when writing about games that have very serious problems...as a group, the MMORPG staff writers strike me as a very "silver lining" sort.
I CAN see why many folks would claim us FORUM Posters at MMORPG are pretty harsh/negative.... but not the staff writers.
The Old Republic is about recapturing the epic feel of the films, and not about creating a living breathing universe to live in. I believe that so long as you approach BioWare’s game with this in mind you won’t be disappointed.
That statement actually causes me more anxiety than comfort. First off I would think it would be the main priority of any MMORPG maker to create a living breathing world reguardless of the IP. And when that IP is something as well known and well loved as Star Wars, their efforts would be doubly so. Oh yeah, and if they aren't as focused on creating living breathing worlds for us to run around in, why did they just make such a big deal over the whole datacron scavenging hunt?
And when you say they want to recapture the epic feel of the films, which films exactly? The first set that enchanted most of we older Star Wars fans, or the prequels and the tinkered with, re-released originals, you know the ones where Lucas got out his box of crayons and started "bleeping" all over his own creatiion?
*RECORD SCRATCH*
Sorry. Setting the Charlton Hestonesque "You maniacs, you blew it up, damn you all to hell" diatribe aside for a moment, I have to say the quckest way an MMO company could recapture the epic feel of the SW films for me, would be to create a living breathing world for me to have my own adventures in. If that world feels lacking, or too small due to bits of it just not being there, then I don't care how good the stories are, for me the game will just end up feeling like either another SW combat simulator game, or a cleverer version of a choose your own adventure book. Now don't get me wrong, those last two choices could still make for a damn fun game, but I have to wonder, would it be enough to keep me enthralled month after month, which I thought, unless something has changed drastically in the realm of MMOS, was the point of their existence. Otherwise these games just become a single player game with multiplayer support and an unnecessary monthly fee, as most people won't be playing them that long.
And to the whole "this game isn't SWG2" fine we get that, there is no reason it should be. However it had also better be more than just Star Wars Battlefront 3 the TOR years, with some single player stoyline and some NPC companions thrown in.
Anyway my two cents. As to cautious optimisim, thats fine as far as it goes, but I think people would feel a bit less anxiety if the last month hadn't seen Bioware telling us almost as much about what won't be in the game at launch as what will be.
As I said in another thread, Bioware releasing a SW IP game in the current MMO climate, after the last few big name IP disasters, after the creators of the IP itself have so badly monkeyed with things in recent years, is about as comforting as finding out your sister is marrying one the Cartwrights, or Captain Kirk wants you to put on your snappiest red shirt and beam down to the planets surface with the gang to see what all the brouhaha is about. So a little "I have a really bad feeling about this" is only to be expected.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I agree Mav, altough I would ask what exactly is this depth he mentions? Quantify it. Describe it. Define it. Much like the previously mentioned "meaningful" it all comes down to subjective opinion and not really something concrete.
And yeah, hard as it may be to swallow for some, WoW fullfills enough gamers expectations for fun and entertainment that it's influence cannot be disregarded. Accessability. Convenience. Casual. Fun.
"Heart grow stronger, Will becomes firm, the Mind more calm, as our Strength lessens..." Battle of Maldon 991 AD
While I'm sure there is a bit of truth in what you say, most people I know and have read posts from are sick of WoW and the WoW model. And all of those same people are severely disappointed with the clones that have come after. They all had high expectations for Rift, but now that they have discovered that the massive grind most people grew sick of in WoW is in full force in Rift, they are ready to call it quits. There are many others who like Rift for what it is, but are going to happily cancel their accounts and move on after they see all there is to see, or more likely, as soon as something new comes along, be it TOR or some other MMO.
I've been a fan of Bioware ever since Baldur's Gate. I don't think they'll let us down with this one.
From the "Hey guys chill out, I like SWTOR and have a positive outlook" tone of this post, I'd assume he would enjoy something like the Imperial Agent class.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I hope that BioWare should make a real masterpiece, but after some "most waited games" such as WarHammer Online, Age of Conan and, last but not least, The Rift (it's really boring, it's the "same of the same" themepark game).
I'm looking at the first years of the new millennium (falcon
), where simply but well souled games such as DAoC and FF XI went out: two little masterpiece. And without any famous name on title (such as LOTRO, SWG, WAR, AoC, STO and, now, SW:TOR)
BTW we need a good game and not another WoW photocopy. There are F2P games such as Runes of Magic or Allods for it. And i hope that EA can be immunized against WoW 2.0 syndrome (WAR...)
My blog about (no more)MMORPG Addicted - a bog about videogames, cinema, politics and other things (in Italian)
I don't think this site is representative for the MMO playerbase, I've come to see this site and its forums as the last resting place for many disgruntled, embittered, jaded and/or burnt out MMO gamers before they retire from the MMO genre.
I'm certain there's a group of MMO gamers who're sick of WoW and WoW-style MMO's or any themepark MMO's, just like there's a group of MMO gamers who're craving for sandbox type of MMO's, but also just like there's still millions of MMO gamers, many more than other MMO's have, that can still find fun and enjoyment in WoW, and there's also groups of MMO gamers who still enjoy themepark MMO's in general.
How many there really are in one group or the other, I guess we'll see when the next few MMO's are released.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well written post with a lot of clever insights, Tardcore.
I had a similar nerve twitching when I read that bit and I fully agree with your assessment. A game doesn't need to be a textbook sandbox to feel like a living, breathing universe / world: every mmorpg which hopes on a long and prosperous life should have one.
Luckily there are quite some things revealed which very much hint that those looking for optional content rather than just storylined gameplay, won't be disappointed either. From exploring and deep crafting to heroic quests and world pvp (even on pve servers), all set in a wide range of large, seamless and very detailed worlds.
As far as I can tell Swtor won't feel half as much as a themepark as a lot of people think it will be
(But that might be me being positively biased. It can still go either way I guess)
p.s. the alignment system and your choices having an influence on the storylined part of the game should ensure more of an "I'm making my own story" feel rather than being taken on a leash by just 'witnessing' a movie in game format so Bill's analogy might have been off a bit.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I keep hearing "not innovative" everywhere. While I'll admit we haven't heard anything truly "innovative" about the game, I think Bioware is doing that on purpose. I'm going to hold judgement until we have all the information.
I keep seeing people saying well it is a Star Wars MMO!!! And my response to that is so? No matter what you think about the "other" Star Wars MMO it did not really attract even close to the player population that many industry people thought it would, because well it was Star Wars!!!........
$100+ Million after all is said and done for a talking quest theme park game, with a solo story game lopped onto it, quest grind leveling, gear grind progression, end game raids, faction grinds sound familar enough??? I have no doubt that it will sell well, I question with the same mechanics that it will have any staying power after that new wears off. I think it will follow the same model as all the recent MMO's, launch with big numbers followed by heavy players loss after 3-6 months, follow by mass exodus when the next "new" same old game comes out, or next WoW expansion :P
I'm more about a cautious pessimist honestly, not that i think it won't be a good game, it probably will be good, but i'm not sure it will be a good mmo at all, in fact i'm pretty sure it will be an other so-so mmo in the line of Rift.
But then i think Wow is super crapy, so i might be biased.