On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
Imho, i believe people who feel better about themselves through repetitive grinding and skilless methods shouldnt feel better at all. And since most of them cant see it and think they are having "FUN" its a little annoying. Espcially those "HARCOAR" pvers who think they are awesome. I mean really feeling better for that is just .... Every time a player overcomes the challenge he feels better...
First off I don't know how many people "feel better" because they play a game, I would consider myself a hardcore gamer, and I know a few other gamers...and I don't think any of us "feel better" because we play a game. Whether its a PVE MMO, PVP MMO...or freakin chess. We like to play because we like to play. I find it kinda funny that this seems to "tick" you off so much, I mean the same could be said for a PVP'er,
"oooh you did battlegrounds for 3 months to get a teir 6 epic, and now you just killed the dude with teir 3 epic gear! I hope you feel better about yourself, did your epeen get bigger?"
See....same arguement could be applied to both.
Pve is a nice technique for tutorials and story, challenges overcomed with repetitive mechanics are there only for money and should not make the user feel better, sadly big companies know that and like to put challenges like building a huge golden cock in minecraft(changes depending the person)...
PvP does the same, even though i dont quite like the idea of ppl feeling better about themselves through buyable means(trololol entertainment industry), pvp at least requires some skill, and thinking at some situations(when fighting actualy pvpers who know how to pvp and not kids who think pvp is cool and being a pvper is cooler)
Ai no matter how complex it becomes, no matter how many different tactics it can use and rolls a dice to have a different one each time it will alway be predictable and easily countered, no matter what. Expect if u one of those that see movies and believe machines will conquer earth or will have emotions...
I challenge you to find a MMO where PVP requires skill and thinking. (and by thinking I mean actual stratagy) I have played a few MMO's that have PVP, and I honestly don't see how they reguire more "skill" then PVE.
The only DIFFRENCE I see betwean PVE and PVP is that:
1. PVP has generaly more targets.
2. PVP you have to walk around a little bit more.
other then that PVP in MMO's is the same as PVE, it comes down to stats.
Think i'm wrong? give me a couple of examples of MMO's that have "skillful" and "strategic" gameplay.
I don't PvP really but I can say PvP is an issue. PvP is never scripted, the fight is never the same twice, normally, unlike PvE where it's the same every time. I always palya a tank so PvP was never much of a focus for me, the times I did dabble in it I have a much better experiance than PvE where everything is perdictable. I say PvP is the ultimate end-game content because it is more engaging and challanging.
The problem though is you have more or less leaning to one side or the other. GW took a PvP balance priority, Rift seems more PvE priority as they have said "find a build to beat it" was pretty much Scott's response, Blizz....well they kinda go both ways it seems.
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
Imho, i believe people who feel better about themselves through repetitive grinding and skilless methods shouldnt feel better at all. And since most of them cant see it and think they are having "FUN" its a little annoying. Espcially those "HARCOAR" pvers who think they are awesome. I mean really feeling better for that is just .... Every time a player overcomes the challenge he feels better...
First off I don't know how many people "feel better" because they play a game, I would consider myself a hardcore gamer, and I know a few other gamers...and I don't think any of us "feel better" because we play a game. Whether its a PVE MMO, PVP MMO...or freakin chess. We like to play because we like to play. I find it kinda funny that this seems to "tick" you off so much, I mean the same could be said for a PVP'er,
"oooh you did battlegrounds for 3 months to get a teir 6 epic, and now you just killed the dude with teir 3 epic gear! I hope you feel better about yourself, did your epeen get bigger?"
See....same arguement could be applied to both.
Pve is a nice technique for tutorials and story, challenges overcomed with repetitive mechanics are there only for money and should not make the user feel better, sadly big companies know that and like to put challenges like building a huge golden cock in minecraft(changes depending the person)...
PvP does the same, even though i dont quite like the idea of ppl feeling better about themselves through buyable means(trololol entertainment industry), pvp at least requires some skill, and thinking at some situations(when fighting actualy pvpers who know how to pvp and not kids who think pvp is cool and being a pvper is cooler)
Ai no matter how complex it becomes, no matter how many different tactics it can use and rolls a dice to have a different one each time it will alway be predictable and easily countered, no matter what. Expect if u one of those that see movies and believe machines will conquer earth or will have emotions...
I challenge you to find a MMO where PVP requires skill and thinking. (and by thinking I mean actual stratagy) I have played a few MMO's that have PVP, and I honestly don't see how they reguire more "skill" then PVE.
The only DIFFRENCE I see betwean PVE and PVP is that:
1. PVP has generaly more targets.
2. PVP you have to walk around a little bit more.
other then that PVP in MMO's is the same as PVE, it comes down to stats.
Think i'm wrong? give me a couple of examples of MMO's that have "skillful" and "strategic" gameplay.
Their easily more skillful and strategic because your pitted against other player skills unlike PvE where it's all scripted and perdictable. That alone makes it so, PvE I'd not even use 1/4 of my toolbar while in PvP senarios I'm using every single trick at times.
I think any title wanting that AAA status has to have pvp. Lord of the Rings was going to launch without it, and there was such an up roar they decided to tack on the monster play feature at the end of development. (Or at least divulge it at the end of development To me, it's just like crafting, or auction houses, or fishing, or cooking. Its one of those mini games that any major title must have. The developers can decide to what degree they want it to be in the game, but it just has to be there now. It would be like buying a car without seatbelts, or windshield wipers. And since I personally really enjoy pvp, I'd like to see developers take it farther and devote more resources to it.
Imho, i believe people who feel better about themselves through repetitive grinding and skilless methods shouldnt feel better at all. And since most of them cant see it and think they are having "FUN" its a little annoying. Espcially those "HARCOAR" pvers who think they are awesome. I mean really feeling better for that is just .... Every time a player overcomes the challenge he feels better...
Pve is a nice technique for tutorials and story, challenges overcomed with repetitive mechanics are there only for money and should not make the user feel better, sadly big companies know that and like to put challenges like building a huge golden cock in minecraft(changes depending the person)...
PvP does the same, even though i dont quite like the idea of ppl feeling better about themselves through buyable means(trololol entertainment industry), pvp at least requires some skill, and thinking at some situations(when fighting actualy pvpers who know how to pvp and not kids who think pvp is cool and being a pvper is cooler)
Ai no matter how complex it becomes, no matter how many different tactics it can use and rolls a dice to have a different one each time it will alway be predictable and easily countered, no matter what. Expect if u one of those that see movies and believe machines will conquer earth or will have emotions...
well then you fall into the "completley not getting it" column.
Stop thinking of "challenge and game play" and start thiking story and social interaction and just the plain experience of it all.
This is why there can't be any meeting of the minds. You are essentially bringing up poitns that might not matter.
You are trying to argue for the "game" part of these games and many pve people are really more into it for the "fun" of the experience and the story. It's more of an emotional "oh look I"m killing monsters" thing over "oh look I'm being challenged" thing.
I used this example in LOTRO closed beta but I'll use it here.
It's not about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I used my skills and 'know how' in order to defeat the beast". It's about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I defeated it. I wonder why these creatures are here. I best head toward the shire and maybe I'll find answers."
It's not about ai. It's not about being challenged. It's about a story. Nothing more.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It depends on the game and if pvp is an integral part of the games theme. Most games now view pvp as a side show, that is just tacked on and has no meaning or purpose to the game world.
Warring a rival guild or assaulting a rival fortress that has server wide ramifications has more meaning to me.
Doing BG's & Arena's just for titles and trinkets serves no purpose or meaning to the games storyline nor does it effect the server in any way.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
This is so true, I couldn't agree more. And some people just don't get it.
I love PvP and I don't think I could play an MMO that doesn't have decent PvP systems - I might as well play a single player game otherwise. Infact, when the servers are running heh, PvP is the main activity I partake in lately.
I can't say I've had much experience with PvP in an MMO outside of SWG, and I'm quite partial to the PvP available in that game. While mostly optional, PvP can (optionally) happen any where at any time, from Mos Eisley to Mustafar, with specific areas where you have to be PvP enabled to enter.
I enjoy PvP because it's a challenge that isn't scripted. Everyone plays different and as such, your responses are always different. It's always satisifying as an Officer to nuke a pair of Jedi slashing at you
It's not about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I used my skills and 'know how' in order to defeat the beast". It's about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I defeated it. I wonder why these creatures are here. I best head toward the shire and maybe I'll find answers."
It's not about ai. It's not about being challenged. It's about a story. Nothing more.
Actually I don't disagree with the essence of your post as I also said earlier that to me the biggest thing PVE can provide in an MMO is the story. It is hard to really provide the full story without PVE elements.
And I also do understand those that prefer to battle scripted events rather than PVP (I compare it to performing a choreographed group dance, which many enjoy perfecting even though it is pure mechanics not really thinking), although I myself much prefer PVP over PVE.
But reading your example above highlights to me one more reason PVP needs to be in the MMO, even if only for the story's sake. Let me illustrate by modifying your example so that the goblin you come across is another player. Without PVP, all you can do is watch them helplessly, or "/emote" at them and appear menacing, but can do absolutely nothing to them. That goblin or group of goblins will just continue to cause whatever mischief they are planning.
To me if you come across another player or group of players in the game, and if the story has you at war with them or simply mortal enemies, then not having PVP utterly ruins the immersion of that experience. In my opinion of course...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
For me, PvP is the next logical step after you've mastered killing NPCs. With that said, this revalation came to me during the days of Ultima Online, where the monster AI was very straight forward and predictable. Once my character was "leveled" up and I was able to kill monsters easily, fighting other people was a much more challenging and rewarding combat experience for me.
Would I play a pure PvE game? In a single player setting maybe (RPG). My preference for MMORPGs are perpetual virtual worlds, and with that....there is competition. That is the distinction between RPGs & MMORPGs for me.
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
This is so true, I couldn't agree more. And some people just don't get it.
Tossing my hat in the ring with Sovrath and Sinella here. People play for different reasons. Not everyone is playing to challenge or compete with the other players.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
As far as the story part of PvE I'd agree however to me it seems like that is no longer a focus anymore. It's more of "WHERZ MY LEEWT!!!" "EPICS EPICS EPICCCCCSSSSSSS!!!!!" that people are more concerned with than the story. The story element has been degrated to non-existance pretty much imo, which thankfully SWTOR and GW2 are revitalizing in their MMOs.
Eh, maybe it's just the community and I guess I'm more of the "old school" RPGer who likes to read and get into the actual story of the game.
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
This is so true, I couldn't agree more. And some people just don't get it.
Tossing my hat in the ring with Sovrath and Sinella here. People play for different reasons. Not everyone is playing to challenge or compete with the other players.
And ultimately thats where the split in the MMO universe has happend. At one time, MMORPGs was the place to challenge yourself & compete with other players...I mean, thats what defined the genere.
Fast forward 5-10 years and RPGs have wedged themselves in the MMO space in order to take advantage of the internet & networking technology AND the reocurring monthly subscription pricing model (MUCH more lucrative than only box sales)
As such, we have a HUGE new MMO audience filled with players from both casual & hardcore audiences. No wonder no one can agree on whats "fun" in MMORPGs
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
Imho, i believe people who feel better about themselves through repetitive grinding and skilless methods shouldnt feel better at all. And since most of them cant see it and think they are having "FUN" its a little annoying. Espcially those "HARCOAR" pvers who think they are awesome. I mean really feeling better for that is just .... Every time a player overcomes the challenge he feels better...
First off I don't know how many people "feel better" because they play a game, I would consider myself a hardcore gamer, and I know a few other gamers...and I don't think any of us "feel better" because we play a game. Whether its a PVE MMO, PVP MMO...or freakin chess. We like to play because we like to play. I find it kinda funny that this seems to "tick" you off so much, I mean the same could be said for a PVP'er,
"oooh you did battlegrounds for 3 months to get a teir 6 epic, and now you just killed the dude with teir 3 epic gear! I hope you feel better about yourself, did your epeen get bigger?"
See....same arguement could be applied to both.
Pve is a nice technique for tutorials and story, challenges overcomed with repetitive mechanics are there only for money and should not make the user feel better, sadly big companies know that and like to put challenges like building a huge golden cock in minecraft(changes depending the person)...
PvP does the same, even though i dont quite like the idea of ppl feeling better about themselves through buyable means(trololol entertainment industry), pvp at least requires some skill, and thinking at some situations(when fighting actualy pvpers who know how to pvp and not kids who think pvp is cool and being a pvper is cooler)
Ai no matter how complex it becomes, no matter how many different tactics it can use and rolls a dice to have a different one each time it will alway be predictable and easily countered, no matter what. Expect if u one of those that see movies and believe machines will conquer earth or will have emotions...
I challenge you to find a MMO where PVP requires skill and thinking. (and by thinking I mean actual stratagy) I have played a few MMO's that have PVP, and I honestly don't see how they reguire more "skill" then PVE.
The only DIFFRENCE I see betwean PVE and PVP is that:
1. PVP has generaly more targets.
2. PVP you have to walk around a little bit more.
other then that PVP in MMO's is the same as PVE, it comes down to stats.
Think i'm wrong? give me a couple of examples of MMO's that have "skillful" and "strategic" gameplay.
Their easily more skillful and strategic because your pitted against other player skills unlike PvE where it's all scripted and perdictable. That alone makes it so, PvE I'd not even use 1/4 of my toolbar while in PvP senarios I'm using every single trick at times.
Yeah I still don't see it, and I would still like an example of a couple of games. And the whole "scripted and predictable" is deffinitly more of a WoW thing.
For instance:
WoW: dungion, you'll run into 10 of these monsters which are easy to kill and then a boss, half way through the boss fight he starts spewing chunks of hate, watch out.. (I admit that is scripted)
FFXI: Run into mob, sure you know what to use to kill it, but maybe the guy who pulled the mob chained a few of them, or maybe while fighting the mob a goblin walks into camp and things get tricky fast. <-not scripted
so I think it depends on which PVE game you play. BUT even if it is scripted I don't see how you need more skill.
WoW: so your in a battle ground. your a warrior, warrior > cloth guy EVERY TIME...no skill. Sure you have to hit a few more buttons....not really seeing how that is such a "skillful thing"
So my challenge still stands, show me ONE MMO that has PVP where you need some sort of skill,
Whether its good reaction time, indepth knowlege of the other team...anything.
So far it sounds like PVP is determined like this:
The pleasure I find in a PVE RPG game world is the enjoyment of being inside the story and taking part in the storyline. Being able to do this in a community of others (which is where MMORPG comes in) who are enjoying the same type of experience is enjoyable because of the opportunities to share the experiences, talk about them the way groups discuss good books or movies, discuss how to deal with particularly difficult to solve puzzles, take part in story related combats which draw upon the lore of the world and the character's abilities to overcome the enemy, and generally share immersion inside that game world. It is not so much about winning or losing as about enjoying the ingame experiences themselves. Those experiences can be the vistas of the game world, the interraction of the NPC's and their reactions to our characters, combat with the NPC's, and all the things that make up being immersed within the designed story framework. As soon as IPWNSJOO comes into the picture, the happy RPG bubble of whatever world I am experiencing pops. IPWNSJOO rarely fits whatever he/she is doing into the framework of the RPG and is only interested in pwn'ing me with perhaps the added pleasure of some caustic, rude, or otherwise unwanted comments.
I have enjoyed pvp in other formats. For me Tribes was a great game for class based PVP in a multiplayer setting, although 'massive' could never be used in that games context as it only supported small numbers per server. A massive version of Tribes perhaps with the large mechs added in might be a great PVP world in which to play.
There are good reasons for PVP and PVE game designs, but they tend to bring very different game experiences. What I have not enjoyed and will probably not support in the future are games which try to be both. They just can't seem to bring enough of either game framework and frequently end up making both undesireable while trying to intregrate two incompatible play styles. Sadly as most game financiers seem to favor the cookie cutter checklist of features and feel that there needs to be a check box for both PVE and PVP on the design sheet, I am going to have to look to other game genres for enjoyment.
It's not about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I used my skills and 'know how' in order to defeat the beast". It's about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I defeated it. I wonder why these creatures are here. I best head toward the shire and maybe I'll find answers."
It's not about ai. It's not about being challenged. It's about a story. Nothing more.
Actually I don't disagree with the essence of your post as I also said earlier that to me the biggest thing PVE can provide in an MMO is the story. It is hard to really provide the full story without PVE elements.
And I also do understand those that prefer to battle scripted events rather than PVP (I compare it to performing a choreographed group dance, which many enjoy perfecting even though it is pure mechanics not really thinking), although I myself much prefer PVP over PVE.
But reading your example above highlights to me one more reason PVP needs to be in the MMO, even if only for the story's sake. Let me illustrate by modifying your example so that the goblin you come across is another player. Without PVP, all you can do is watch them helplessly, or "/emote" at them and appear menacing, but can do absolutely nothing to them. That goblin or group of goblins will just continue to cause whatever mischief they are planning.
To me if you come across another player or group of players in the game, and if the story has you at war with them or simply mortal enemies, then not having PVP utterly ruins the immersion of that experience. In my opinion of course...
I completely understand your point but the solution is simple:
They would't be coming across each other OR all players would be on the same side. Otherwise I agree, if players are on opposing sides then their should be pvp and at the very least pvp areas.
I'll tell you an amusing (well I thought it was amusing) story.
I'm not a WoW player but every so often I'll reup to see what is going on. doesn't last long as WoW is actually pretty boring to my tastes. That''s not a knock against the game, just has to do with my tastes.
In any case I was taking my alliance dark elf through some sort of jungle area and suddenly I see a Troll player coming down the road in my direction. I immediatley get ready as it seems thta this player is higher level than I and has better gear. But I'm prepared to go down with a fight. So I target them and they come toward me and... and...
they run right past me and contineu down the road.
I was confused. did I do somethign wrong? I realized I wasn't on a pvp server but surely I would be attackable by an opposing player if we were in a shared area?
So opposing sides don't work (which I agree with you) unless "some" sort of pvp can happen. I say "some sort" because in my opinion if a game is going to have both pve and pvp then players should be allowed the choice. Which to me means pvp lakes or contested areas and otherwise no mingling.
Take Aion. From the start the developers were saying that players could concentrate on either pvp or pve. what they were cagey about was the idea that a player would have to confront one or the other game style. The game was just made that way.
Many pve players were angry and pvp players were also angry because it wasn't quite open enough and the game didn't go as far as they thought it should.
Had NC been more upfront and just said "you can be killed at any time expect it" or "you will have to do some pve quests in order to grow your character" then people might have been more clear on what they were getting themselves into.
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For me the brightest value in an MMORPG is getting into a guild with friendly people and running dungeons. Beyond that I enjoy exploring, checking out the scenery, working on my crafting, and shopping... I just love working out stats and unusual builds. I love freedom. I barely tolerate quest progression. I consider myself a PVE sandboxer stuck in a world of themeparks.
I have no attraction to PVP at all. I generally go out of my way to avoid it.
However, I realize that my perspective isn't really all that common. Would I play a pure PVE game? Yes. Would I consider building one? No. I think that would be too limiting. PVP has a place. Building that in a way that doesn't cripple PVE is the trick.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I bought and played Mortal Online for a while because it offers PvP. It's failings eventually led me to leave, but I still hope that game works out, so I can play it.
On the other hand, I've only played Rift for about an hour, even though it looks like it's a solidly made game. Everything I've read about it seems to indicate that PvP was mostly an add-on for Rift, though.
I don't want add on PvP, I want PvP focus.
The reason I want MMORPG that focuses on PvP is that I like team based PvP. A lot of people like to say, "Black Ops is that way," to the PvPers. But I like the idea that I have to do my job, fufill my ROLE in a 100 vs. 100 or so battle for my team to suceed, rather than, "Oh my goz! I top leaderz board!" in Black Ops!
Don't get me wrong, I play Killzone 3 (when PSN is up) and usually do well, when sober.
But I look to MMORPG PvP for more depth in regards to a team PvP style.
I'd like for it to effect the world (so it's not just instanced) and have rewards that are beyond gear welfare. But, yes, PvP is important to me.
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I really like PVP. But I refuse to play FFA PVP, and gear based PvP games. Sadly, DAoC is the only game that I found that fit my wants. Why no developers have tried to make a game like DAoC is beyond me.
I enjoyed WoW battlegrounds until max level when the gear discrepancy was far too large - I actually used to fight only in the 39 BG and was not a twink, since I never even played my level 80 toon. I enjoyed Warhammer scenarios until tier 3 when the crowd control became unbearable.
I'm now trying out AoC for the first time. I hope its PvP is good.
If the game will force me to PvP I won't play it. If I can disable PvP or avoid it by not going to certain zones, it's tolerable.
What I really want is a PvE only game based upon old PnP style that is complex and difficult, never repeats itself and you should always expect the unexpected.
In case any developer/game publisher reads: I will pay extra and stay for years ;-)
WoW: so your in a battle ground. your a warrior, warrior > cloth guy EVERY TIME...no skill. Sure you have to hit a few more buttons....not really seeing how that is such a "skillful thing"
So my challenge still stands, show me ONE MMO that has PVP where you need some sort of skill,
Whether its good reaction time, indepth knowlege of the other team...anything.
So far it sounds like PVP is determined like this:
Class type > level > gear > luck.
nowhere do I see skill.
Even in WoW there was some fairly good balance and I found that when played right most characters can provide a challenge to most other characters, or at least survive and escape. But you really need to be smart and think very tactically about your own strengths/weaknesses and your bag of tricks as opposed to your opponent's. If you play the cloth guy like a moron and stand there while the warrior pummels you, then yes you will lose. But for instance, back in the day when I played WoW PVP a very skilled ice mage had some really good survivability against melee.
You really have to play smart though, and make very quick tactical decisions. Even set up some scripts to hot keys if it is allowed by the MMO for various situations you might come across. As you play more and more PVP you find what works well for you against certain situations and what you have trouble with. It took me a while to figure out some of my tactics, and execute them successfully. For instance ones that would allow my rogue to take down blood elf paladin rat bastards LOL.
If you haven't focussed much on PVP though this might not be easy to understand: simple rotations and roles is just not good enough with PVP. In PVP situations are not easy to control. For those that prefer the choreographed dance that is PVE just probably won't like the unscripted quickly changing landscape that is PVP.
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PvP does nothing for me. I don't play a game to feel good about myself or to build my self esteem. I play games for recreation, whether it's blowing the dust off of X-Com or jumping into a new MMO or RPG. When I want to do something to feel a sense of accomplishment, I leave my house and do something that actually affects my life. So the common arguements that "PvE isn't challenging enough" and "Where's the sense of accomplishment in beating a dumb machine" are non issues for me.
Still, I feel PvP is an important part of a game in that it helps build and maintain a larger player base. So I'd not be one to call for "all PvE games", because more subscriptions means more happy joe money bucks for the devs to keep writing content with.
The downside to PvP is it's often seen as an excuse by developers to not create better AI, or better, more thoughtful and challenging PvE content. "Eh, 'we'll set up an battleground and let people kick each other in the heads all day. Why go through all the effort of making the game better, when something cheap and simple can keep people too busy to notice we're not really taking this game to a new level?" By the time they get done nerfing Droods because Paladims kept crying (or vice versa) and creating PvP PRPLZ 733T Stud Gear and then balancing that with all the other gear, they might have been able to do something impressive with elevating the state of the game.
(Why do you think all the free to play games rely so heavilly on PvP?)
So yeah, I want PvP content to be rich and challenging enough to keep the player base up, to satisfy those players who like both... but I'll never play a game that leaves me with the option of grinding moss snakes or heading to PvP zones. I don't need to be "taught" to enjoy PvP any more than I need to be "taught" to enjoy Pick Up Groups or the stomach flu.
Well, for me it is. I have read every response in this thread posted so far..and there are wide opinions of it. It seems many people don't feel it's necessary. It seems alot fo people feel that PvE is too easy, or PvP should be a flaggable option. It also seems that many of the answers so far play MMORPG's to do either solo PvE or in a group.
I, along with many others..don't fee this way at all. I can agree that PvP is not a MUST, however it largely depends on what you want to do in game. LOTRO didn't have PvP, but was a true themepark nightmare....at least to me. I can see why people would play it, to do PvE in groups...I did this in CoH. It was fun..for a few months, but I quickly tired of it.
I guess it just depends on what type of game you are playing. I can't see how a sandbox style game or a game where you interact with other players via trading, crafting, world building etc...you CAN'T have it. I learned long ago...if you get mistreated in EvE, you don't press the petition button. YOU do something about it.
If I had a problem with some player in LOTRO, I guess I would have to get a GM involved..thankfully I never did. I prefer to play online games with others and interact with them with more than if i'm bringing DPS, tank or healing. I prefer to actually speak to others and form lasting impressions.
If I give you gold to build something in game, and you steal it...I don't want to get admins involved. I would prefer to kill you, and take it back. If you don't like it, you are more than happy to either do what I asked or return my gold. Open World PvP allows players to ENFORCE CONSEQUENCE on others. If you don't have full loot pvp..you have Call of Duty or Battlefield.
Ever play an objective based FPS? Do you rush the target? Do you care if you are killed? I don't, b/c I'm going to spawn with the same kit I just had in another part of the map. Is this what you like? If you do, then Open World PvP probably doesn't suit you. I don't think it's wrong..I just don't see how you can have a living, breathing world with all the mechanics that go into building that...and then tell players that all the work they put it in...means little.
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Comments
I challenge you to find a MMO where PVP requires skill and thinking. (and by thinking I mean actual stratagy) I have played a few MMO's that have PVP, and I honestly don't see how they reguire more "skill" then PVE.
The only DIFFRENCE I see betwean PVE and PVP is that:
1. PVP has generaly more targets.
2. PVP you have to walk around a little bit more.
other then that PVP in MMO's is the same as PVE, it comes down to stats.
Think i'm wrong? give me a couple of examples of MMO's that have "skillful" and "strategic" gameplay.
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I don't PvP really but I can say PvP is an issue. PvP is never scripted, the fight is never the same twice, normally, unlike PvE where it's the same every time. I always palya a tank so PvP was never much of a focus for me, the times I did dabble in it I have a much better experiance than PvE where everything is perdictable. I say PvP is the ultimate end-game content because it is more engaging and challanging.
The problem though is you have more or less leaning to one side or the other. GW took a PvP balance priority, Rift seems more PvE priority as they have said "find a build to beat it" was pretty much Scott's response, Blizz....well they kinda go both ways it seems.
Their easily more skillful and strategic because your pitted against other player skills unlike PvE where it's all scripted and perdictable. That alone makes it so, PvE I'd not even use 1/4 of my toolbar while in PvP senarios I'm using every single trick at times.
I think any title wanting that AAA status has to have pvp. Lord of the Rings was going to launch without it, and there was such an up roar they decided to tack on the monster play feature at the end of development. (Or at least divulge it at the end of development
To me, it's just like crafting, or auction houses, or fishing, or cooking. Its one of those mini games that any major title must have. The developers can decide to what degree they want it to be in the game, but it just has to be there now. It would be like buying a car without seatbelts, or windshield wipers. And since I personally really enjoy pvp, I'd like to see developers take it farther and devote more resources to it.
well then you fall into the "completley not getting it" column.
Stop thinking of "challenge and game play" and start thiking story and social interaction and just the plain experience of it all.
This is why there can't be any meeting of the minds. You are essentially bringing up poitns that might not matter.
You are trying to argue for the "game" part of these games and many pve people are really more into it for the "fun" of the experience and the story. It's more of an emotional "oh look I"m killing monsters" thing over "oh look I'm being challenged" thing.
I used this example in LOTRO closed beta but I'll use it here.
It's not about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I used my skills and 'know how' in order to defeat the beast". It's about "I was wandering down the road toward the shire when a goblin attacked me and I defeated it. I wonder why these creatures are here. I best head toward the shire and maybe I'll find answers."
It's not about ai. It's not about being challenged. It's about a story. Nothing more.
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It depends on the game and if pvp is an integral part of the games theme. Most games now view pvp as a side show, that is just tacked on and has no meaning or purpose to the game world.
Warring a rival guild or assaulting a rival fortress that has server wide ramifications has more meaning to me.
Doing BG's & Arena's just for titles and trinkets serves no purpose or meaning to the games storyline nor does it effect the server in any way.
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This is so true, I couldn't agree more. And some people just don't get it.
I love PvP and I don't think I could play an MMO that doesn't have decent PvP systems - I might as well play a single player game otherwise. Infact, when the servers are running heh, PvP is the main activity I partake in lately.
I can't say I've had much experience with PvP in an MMO outside of SWG, and I'm quite partial to the PvP available in that game. While mostly optional, PvP can (optionally) happen any where at any time, from Mos Eisley to Mustafar, with specific areas where you have to be PvP enabled to enter.
I enjoy PvP because it's a challenge that isn't scripted. Everyone plays different and as such, your responses are always different. It's always satisifying as an Officer to nuke a pair of Jedi slashing at you
Actually I don't disagree with the essence of your post as I also said earlier that to me the biggest thing PVE can provide in an MMO is the story. It is hard to really provide the full story without PVE elements.
And I also do understand those that prefer to battle scripted events rather than PVP (I compare it to performing a choreographed group dance, which many enjoy perfecting even though it is pure mechanics not really thinking), although I myself much prefer PVP over PVE.
But reading your example above highlights to me one more reason PVP needs to be in the MMO, even if only for the story's sake. Let me illustrate by modifying your example so that the goblin you come across is another player. Without PVP, all you can do is watch them helplessly, or "/emote" at them and appear menacing, but can do absolutely nothing to them. That goblin or group of goblins will just continue to cause whatever mischief they are planning.
To me if you come across another player or group of players in the game, and if the story has you at war with them or simply mortal enemies, then not having PVP utterly ruins the immersion of that experience. In my opinion of course...
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For me, PvP is the next logical step after you've mastered killing NPCs. With that said, this revalation came to me during the days of Ultima Online, where the monster AI was very straight forward and predictable. Once my character was "leveled" up and I was able to kill monsters easily, fighting other people was a much more challenging and rewarding combat experience for me.
Would I play a pure PvE game? In a single player setting maybe (RPG). My preference for MMORPGs are perpetual virtual worlds, and with that....there is competition. That is the distinction between RPGs & MMORPGs for me.
Tossing my hat in the ring with Sovrath and Sinella here. People play for different reasons. Not everyone is playing to challenge or compete with the other players.
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As far as the story part of PvE I'd agree however to me it seems like that is no longer a focus anymore. It's more of "WHERZ MY LEEWT!!!" "EPICS EPICS EPICCCCCSSSSSSS!!!!!" that people are more concerned with than the story. The story element has been degrated to non-existance pretty much imo, which thankfully SWTOR and GW2 are revitalizing in their MMOs.
Eh, maybe it's just the community and I guess I'm more of the "old school" RPGer who likes to read and get into the actual story of the game.
And ultimately thats where the split in the MMO universe has happend. At one time, MMORPGs was the place to challenge yourself & compete with other players...I mean, thats what defined the genere.
Fast forward 5-10 years and RPGs have wedged themselves in the MMO space in order to take advantage of the internet & networking technology AND the reocurring monthly subscription pricing model (MUCH more lucrative than only box sales)
As such, we have a HUGE new MMO audience filled with players from both casual & hardcore audiences. No wonder no one can agree on whats "fun" in MMORPGs
Yeah I still don't see it, and I would still like an example of a couple of games. And the whole "scripted and predictable" is deffinitly more of a WoW thing.
For instance:
WoW: dungion, you'll run into 10 of these monsters which are easy to kill and then a boss, half way through the boss fight he starts spewing chunks of hate, watch out.. (I admit that is scripted)
FFXI: Run into mob, sure you know what to use to kill it, but maybe the guy who pulled the mob chained a few of them, or maybe while fighting the mob a goblin walks into camp and things get tricky fast. <-not scripted
so I think it depends on which PVE game you play. BUT even if it is scripted I don't see how you need more skill.
WoW: so your in a battle ground. your a warrior, warrior > cloth guy EVERY TIME...no skill. Sure you have to hit a few more buttons....not really seeing how that is such a "skillful thing"
So my challenge still stands, show me ONE MMO that has PVP where you need some sort of skill,
Whether its good reaction time, indepth knowlege of the other team...anything.
So far it sounds like PVP is determined like this:
Class type > level > gear > luck.
nowhere do I see skill.
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The pleasure I find in a PVE RPG game world is the enjoyment of being inside the story and taking part in the storyline. Being able to do this in a community of others (which is where MMORPG comes in) who are enjoying the same type of experience is enjoyable because of the opportunities to share the experiences, talk about them the way groups discuss good books or movies, discuss how to deal with particularly difficult to solve puzzles, take part in story related combats which draw upon the lore of the world and the character's abilities to overcome the enemy, and generally share immersion inside that game world. It is not so much about winning or losing as about enjoying the ingame experiences themselves. Those experiences can be the vistas of the game world, the interraction of the NPC's and their reactions to our characters, combat with the NPC's, and all the things that make up being immersed within the designed story framework. As soon as IPWNSJOO comes into the picture, the happy RPG bubble of whatever world I am experiencing pops. IPWNSJOO rarely fits whatever he/she is doing into the framework of the RPG and is only interested in pwn'ing me with perhaps the added pleasure of some caustic, rude, or otherwise unwanted comments.
I have enjoyed pvp in other formats. For me Tribes was a great game for class based PVP in a multiplayer setting, although 'massive' could never be used in that games context as it only supported small numbers per server. A massive version of Tribes perhaps with the large mechs added in might be a great PVP world in which to play.
There are good reasons for PVP and PVE game designs, but they tend to bring very different game experiences. What I have not enjoyed and will probably not support in the future are games which try to be both. They just can't seem to bring enough of either game framework and frequently end up making both undesireable while trying to intregrate two incompatible play styles. Sadly as most game financiers seem to favor the cookie cutter checklist of features and feel that there needs to be a check box for both PVE and PVP on the design sheet, I am going to have to look to other game genres for enjoyment.
I completely understand your point but the solution is simple:
They would't be coming across each other OR all players would be on the same side. Otherwise I agree, if players are on opposing sides then their should be pvp and at the very least pvp areas.
I'll tell you an amusing (well I thought it was amusing) story.
I'm not a WoW player but every so often I'll reup to see what is going on. doesn't last long as WoW is actually pretty boring to my tastes. That''s not a knock against the game, just has to do with my tastes.
In any case I was taking my alliance dark elf through some sort of jungle area and suddenly I see a Troll player coming down the road in my direction. I immediatley get ready as it seems thta this player is higher level than I and has better gear. But I'm prepared to go down with a fight. So I target them and they come toward me and... and...
they run right past me and contineu down the road.
I was confused. did I do somethign wrong? I realized I wasn't on a pvp server but surely I would be attackable by an opposing player if we were in a shared area?
So opposing sides don't work (which I agree with you) unless "some" sort of pvp can happen. I say "some sort" because in my opinion if a game is going to have both pve and pvp then players should be allowed the choice. Which to me means pvp lakes or contested areas and otherwise no mingling.
Take Aion. From the start the developers were saying that players could concentrate on either pvp or pve. what they were cagey about was the idea that a player would have to confront one or the other game style. The game was just made that way.
Many pve players were angry and pvp players were also angry because it wasn't quite open enough and the game didn't go as far as they thought it should.
Had NC been more upfront and just said "you can be killed at any time expect it" or "you will have to do some pve quests in order to grow your character" then people might have been more clear on what they were getting themselves into.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
For me the brightest value in an MMORPG is getting into a guild with friendly people and running dungeons. Beyond that I enjoy exploring, checking out the scenery, working on my crafting, and shopping... I just love working out stats and unusual builds. I love freedom. I barely tolerate quest progression. I consider myself a PVE sandboxer stuck in a world of themeparks.
I have no attraction to PVP at all. I generally go out of my way to avoid it.
However, I realize that my perspective isn't really all that common. Would I play a pure PVE game? Yes. Would I consider building one? No. I think that would be too limiting. PVP has a place. Building that in a way that doesn't cripple PVE is the trick.
PvP is a big issue for me.
I bought and played Mortal Online for a while because it offers PvP. It's failings eventually led me to leave, but I still hope that game works out, so I can play it.
On the other hand, I've only played Rift for about an hour, even though it looks like it's a solidly made game. Everything I've read about it seems to indicate that PvP was mostly an add-on for Rift, though.
I don't want add on PvP, I want PvP focus.
The reason I want MMORPG that focuses on PvP is that I like team based PvP. A lot of people like to say, "Black Ops is that way," to the PvPers. But I like the idea that I have to do my job, fufill my ROLE in a 100 vs. 100 or so battle for my team to suceed, rather than, "Oh my goz! I top leaderz board!" in Black Ops!
Don't get me wrong, I play Killzone 3 (when PSN is up) and usually do well, when sober.
But I look to MMORPG PvP for more depth in regards to a team PvP style.
I'd like for it to effect the world (so it's not just instanced) and have rewards that are beyond gear welfare. But, yes, PvP is important to me.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
I really like PVP. But I refuse to play FFA PVP, and gear based PvP games. Sadly, DAoC is the only game that I found that fit my wants. Why no developers have tried to make a game like DAoC is beyond me.
I enjoyed WoW battlegrounds until max level when the gear discrepancy was far too large - I actually used to fight only in the 39 BG and was not a twink, since I never even played my level 80 toon. I enjoyed Warhammer scenarios until tier 3 when the crowd control became unbearable.
I'm now trying out AoC for the first time. I hope its PvP is good.
If the game will force me to PvP I won't play it. If I can disable PvP or avoid it by not going to certain zones, it's tolerable.
What I really want is a PvE only game based upon old PnP style that is complex and difficult, never repeats itself and you should always expect the unexpected.
In case any developer/game publisher reads: I will pay extra and stay for years ;-)
pvp is all that matters for me..
Even in WoW there was some fairly good balance and I found that when played right most characters can provide a challenge to most other characters, or at least survive and escape. But you really need to be smart and think very tactically about your own strengths/weaknesses and your bag of tricks as opposed to your opponent's. If you play the cloth guy like a moron and stand there while the warrior pummels you, then yes you will lose. But for instance, back in the day when I played WoW PVP a very skilled ice mage had some really good survivability against melee.
You really have to play smart though, and make very quick tactical decisions. Even set up some scripts to hot keys if it is allowed by the MMO for various situations you might come across. As you play more and more PVP you find what works well for you against certain situations and what you have trouble with. It took me a while to figure out some of my tactics, and execute them successfully. For instance ones that would allow my rogue to take down blood elf paladin rat bastards LOL.
If you haven't focussed much on PVP though this might not be easy to understand: simple rotations and roles is just not good enough with PVP. In PVP situations are not easy to control. For those that prefer the choreographed dance that is PVE just probably won't like the unscripted quickly changing landscape that is PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
PvP does nothing for me. I don't play a game to feel good about myself or to build my self esteem. I play games for recreation, whether it's blowing the dust off of X-Com or jumping into a new MMO or RPG. When I want to do something to feel a sense of accomplishment, I leave my house and do something that actually affects my life. So the common arguements that "PvE isn't challenging enough" and "Where's the sense of accomplishment in beating a dumb machine" are non issues for me.
Still, I feel PvP is an important part of a game in that it helps build and maintain a larger player base. So I'd not be one to call for "all PvE games", because more subscriptions means more happy joe money bucks for the devs to keep writing content with.
The downside to PvP is it's often seen as an excuse by developers to not create better AI, or better, more thoughtful and challenging PvE content. "Eh, 'we'll set up an battleground and let people kick each other in the heads all day. Why go through all the effort of making the game better, when something cheap and simple can keep people too busy to notice we're not really taking this game to a new level?" By the time they get done nerfing Droods because Paladims kept crying (or vice versa) and creating PvP PRPLZ 733T Stud Gear and then balancing that with all the other gear, they might have been able to do something impressive with elevating the state of the game.
(Why do you think all the free to play games rely so heavilly on PvP?)
So yeah, I want PvP content to be rich and challenging enough to keep the player base up, to satisfy those players who like both... but I'll never play a game that leaves me with the option of grinding moss snakes or heading to PvP zones. I don't need to be "taught" to enjoy PvP any more than I need to be "taught" to enjoy Pick Up Groups or the stomach flu.
Is PvP necessary in a MMO?
Well, for me it is. I have read every response in this thread posted so far..and there are wide opinions of it. It seems many people don't feel it's necessary. It seems alot fo people feel that PvE is too easy, or PvP should be a flaggable option. It also seems that many of the answers so far play MMORPG's to do either solo PvE or in a group.
I, along with many others..don't fee this way at all. I can agree that PvP is not a MUST, however it largely depends on what you want to do in game. LOTRO didn't have PvP, but was a true themepark nightmare....at least to me. I can see why people would play it, to do PvE in groups...I did this in CoH. It was fun..for a few months, but I quickly tired of it.
I guess it just depends on what type of game you are playing. I can't see how a sandbox style game or a game where you interact with other players via trading, crafting, world building etc...you CAN'T have it. I learned long ago...if you get mistreated in EvE, you don't press the petition button. YOU do something about it.
If I had a problem with some player in LOTRO, I guess I would have to get a GM involved..thankfully I never did. I prefer to play online games with others and interact with them with more than if i'm bringing DPS, tank or healing. I prefer to actually speak to others and form lasting impressions.
If I give you gold to build something in game, and you steal it...I don't want to get admins involved. I would prefer to kill you, and take it back. If you don't like it, you are more than happy to either do what I asked or return my gold. Open World PvP allows players to ENFORCE CONSEQUENCE on others. If you don't have full loot pvp..you have Call of Duty or Battlefield.
Ever play an objective based FPS? Do you rush the target? Do you care if you are killed? I don't, b/c I'm going to spawn with the same kit I just had in another part of the map. Is this what you like? If you do, then Open World PvP probably doesn't suit you. I don't think it's wrong..I just don't see how you can have a living, breathing world with all the mechanics that go into building that...and then tell players that all the work they put it in...means little.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I won't play a game where PvP is mandatory.
I will play one where it is optional. Whether I actually PvP or not depends on how well it is implemented.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests