There is only one HARDCORE type of gameplay. Everything else is funneling you into that one type of gameplay. People who arent interested in that will be a casual player of the game. If there were other types of hardcore gameplay, you would have more hardcore players. The game itself makes people hardcore. If they love it, they'll find time to play.
If there is only one type of game, there is only one type of hardcore player.
Many people have both work and kids, there is no way they can balance in being a hardcore gamer with that.
I agree that some games are fun to play hardcore if you have the time, but you can't assume that all people can take themselves time no matter how much they want to, the world just doesn't work like that (and it probably is a good thing too, the world would collapse because no one worked or did anything besides gaming otherwise).
Who do you think plays eve? People play facebook games hardcore. Because they can plan and play around their lives, rather than sacrifice their lives to play hardcore. Gameplay determines who your hardcore players will be.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
It is difficult to quantify hardcore or indeed casual as it is relative to the game/gamestyle. To me hardcore means 5-7 days a week mandatory progressive raiding guild, im sure it means a different thing to others though.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I find the concept of witholding content from anyone exceptionally selfish.
I had a conversation with a RL friend about MMOs and he thinks WoW was ruined because they 'took out the elitism' (his words), with the highest pieces of gear outside of Legenedaries being acquirable by everyone. He wants to have more stuff than everyone else, better stuff and doesn't even want anyone else to get a chance at it.
From what is sounds like, he just wants more individuality in the gear his character can get, but it's compunded with a selfish need to dperive others of said gear.
I can't stand that.
IMHO, I think all players should have an equal chance at doing things, an equal chance at fun. Sure people with more time on their hands will get things quicker, but that shouldn't bar players who don't have as much time to give from having the same privelege of earning rewards. It's a game, not a job. You go their to escape real life, not add to it's problems. If the casual player doesn't have the motivation or drive to spend time doing all of that (over a period of time) then more power to them let them pursue what they find enjoyable. But if a casual wants to run a certain dungeon, even if it takes him a lot longer than a 'hardcore,' than it shouldn't have to be the equivalent of swiming up a waterfall.
It's not a problem with most of the games, it's a problem with the Communities.
"I'm better than you, I won't help you because your new and I don't have the time, I have to go get better gear to inflate my already inflated ego."
Op, do you really want to understand, or do you just want to fight with us casuals? I don't want to explain something when you don't really WANT to change your point of view anyway.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm a casual player and I totally agree with the hardcore players. Yes! If they put more time in the game, DEFINITELY, they should have more stuff or whatever. BUT... About the monthly fee... I do think that since I DO play less, I should be able to pay less. Look at the Asian MMO market; They pay by the minute basically.
Buy 20 000 minutes and every time you log in, you lose minutes. I love this because I don't feel like I'm losing money since I'm only charged when I play.
So, no, someone that works less should not be paid as much as someone that works more.
But, should you get charged the same price if you're sitting way in the back at a concert or right near the stage?
Kinda like how I see this. Power to the hardcore players! But companies could do something about the monthly fees to help casuals. Or Hardcores as well cuz in a sense, you aren't playing 24/7 but you still pay for 24/7.
________________________ "If RL was an MMO, I'd probably be getting laid more often..."
This depends on what exactly you mean by "hardcore" and "casual". After I quit Everquest I was a crusader against "hardcore" favoritism for some years. But back in EQ that probably had a different meaning than it does now.
I have no problem with people who put in more time getting their rewards faster/sooner, however I do have a problem with games designed in such a way that most people can't even attempt to get those rewards. Back in the old days of EQ the only way to get high end gear was through raiding. Raids typically required fifty or more people and typically lasted for ten or more hours in one sitting.
So, in order to progress at endgame you first had to be accepted into a guild that could regularly field 50+ high level players. You then had to be able to attend raids which would almost certainly last at least ten hours consecutively and often more than that. Because of DKP systems you had to be willing to do those types of raids frequently if you wanted a chance to get any loot before you lost interest in the game and if you weren't willing to raid frequently you probably wouldn't be accepted into the guild in the first place.
So, basically, if you were unwilling or unable to sit down in front of your computer for 12 hours in one sitting three or four times a week you were just sh-t outta luck. Most people can't do that or simply don't want to do that. It wasn't just a matter of putting in your time to get your rewards; you had to put in huge blocks of time all in one sitting and you had to do it frequently and with a large number of other players. Fortunatelty that extreme insanity is dead I think.
But that used to be the hardcore/casual debate: Why shouldn't people who can basically play games 24/7 have exclusive access to endgame progression? Why should the horrible casuals who are unable to play marathon sessions several times a week be allowed any high level progression at all. I mean after all if they aren't putting in those marathon sessions they don't need the gear used in the marathon sessions so shouldn't be allowed to progress at all. Of course Sony eventually discovered that putting a brick wall in front of 90-some percent of their playerbase beyond which they could not progress meant that people wouldn't stick with their game when they started having more choices in gaming.
This depends on what exactly you mean by "hardcore" and "casual". After I quit Everquest I was a crusader against "hardcore" favoritism for some years. But back in EQ that probably had a different meaning than it does now.
I have no problem with people who put in more time getting their rewards faster/sooner, however I do have a problem with games designed in such a way that most people can't even attempt to get those rewards. Back in the old days of EQ the only way to get high end gear was through raiding. Raids typically required fifty or more people and typically lasted for ten or more hours in one sitting.
So, in order to progress at endgame you first had to be accepted into a guild that could regularly field 50+ high level players. You then had to be able to attend raids which would almost certainly last at least ten hours consecutively and often more than that. Because of DKP systems you had to be willing to do those types of raids frequently if you wanted a chance to get any loot before you lost interest in the game and if you weren't willing to raid frequently you probably wouldn't be accepted into the guild in the first place.
So, basically, if you were unwilling or unable to sit down in front of your computer for 12 hours in one sitting three or four times a week you were just sh-t outta luck. Most people can't do that or simply don't want to do that. It wasn't just a matter of putting in your time to get your rewards; you had to put in huge blocks of time all in one sitting and you had to do it frequently and with a large number of other players. Fortunatelty that extreme insanity is dead I think.
But that used to be the hardcore/casual debate: Why shouldn't people who can basically play games 24/7 have exclusive access to endgame progression? Why should the horrible casuals who are unable to play marathon sessions several times a week be allowed any high level progression at all. I mean after all if they aren't putting in those marathon sessions they don't need the gear used in the marathon sessions so shouldn't be allowed to progress at all. Of course Sony eventually discovered that putting a brick wall in front of 90-some percent of their playerbase beyond which they could not progress meant that people wouldn't stick with their game when they started having more choices in gaming.
50+ people? When I played, we called that "zerging". Most raids, while every toon required the gold-bought resistance gear, included a "core" of 6-8 experienced, geared players, and took along 10-12 for the drops. This was true for vanilla through SoL when I played. I can only remember "sleeper" being the exception, and even that was a "pride contest" of "how few" people you could take to get it done. I remember we had that down to 9.
Taking 50 people to an eq1 raid in the first few years would have been a sloppy mess, especially in the pre-ventrillo days, when all dialogue was typed, and master loot rolls were done in chat. You were doing it wrong.
While high-end guilds in any game do have their core of "hardcore" people who play incessantly, this isn't the majority. Alot of people only "raid" 2 or 3 times a week, and reap the benefits of those more experienced players. The raids are scheduled as sort of "appointments", and yeh if you miss them it kinda wastes peoples' time, so you get dropped, but it's not every day and it's certainly not 24/7. Mostly the requirements would be you not be some dumbdick loudmouth and not flash some indicitive signs or behavior you were just going to try to sell your toon after you got "geared".
All it ever required that I've seen is you be a decent, friendly person, and word-of-mouth rumor or testimony of your exploits being a fair and competant gamer. I can't think of a single time a "nice person" was denied being guilded, even if they only played twice a week. Sure, sometimes people had to wait a month or two because of too many same-class people (no guild needs 20 necromancers), but that's just common sense.
Casual gamers should have options/things in the game that they can do and stuff enjoy the game. However, they should not get an artificial boost. Spending more time should open up the game to you.
It's one thing to cater to casual, its another thing to pander.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
50+ people? When I played, we called that "zerging". Most raids, while every toon required the gold-bought resistance gear, included a "core" of 6-8 experienced, geared players, and took along 10-12 for the drops. This was true for vanilla through SoL when I played. I can only remember "sleeper" being the exception, and even that was a "pride contest" of "how few" people you could take to get it done. I remember we had that down to 9.
Taking 50 people to an eq1 raid in the first few years would have been a sloppy mess, especially in the pre-ventrillo days, when all dialogue was typed, and master loot rolls were done in chat. You were doing it wrong.
I don't know which game you're talking about but I'm talking about the first EQ. There is no way in hell 6 people could have handled a fear, hate, sky or dragon raid in vanilla EQ or any of the raids up through Luclin and probably planes of power. After that I have no idea because I was no longer playing.
I also have no idea what "gold-bought resistance gear" is supposed to be unless that was something added much later in the game. For one thing you couldn't buy more than a rusty weapon with gold because platinum was the highest denomination of coinage in EQ. Well you could, but you'd have to carry around 10's of thousands of gold coins and money had wieght in EQ so you wouldn't even be able to walk to the vendor to buy the thing you wanted to buy.
Maybe you're remembering going back to old content after you were level 70 or something in which case maybe a single group could have handled it but the original level cap was 50 and it was 60 through kunark and velious.
I'm a casual player and I totally agree with the hardcore players. Yes! If they put more time in the game, DEFINITELY, they should have more stuff or whatever. BUT... About the monthly fee... I do think that since I DO play less, I should be able to pay less. Look at the Asian MMO market; They pay by the minute basically.
Buy 20 000 minutes and every time you log in, you lose minutes. I love this because I don't feel like I'm losing money since I'm only charged when I play.
So, no, someone that works less should not be paid as much as someone that works more.
But, should you get charged the same price if you're sitting way in the back at a concert or right near the stage?
Kinda like how I see this. Power to the hardcore players! But companies could do something about the monthly fees to help casuals. Or Hardcores as well cuz in a sense, you aren't playing 24/7 but you still pay for 24/7.
You're paying for entertainment.
If you pay 14.95 a month, you're getting a bargain if you get as much entertainment as you get from going to see a movie at the theater twice.
In other words, you need to play a little more than 4 hours a month for it to be a good deal.
Charging by the minute is probably going to cost more for the developer to keep up with billing, etc.
I imagine your per minute cost will be substantially larger than just paying 14.95 per month for unlimited game play.
BUT, if you were willing to pay that per minute cost, I"d certainly have nothing against it.
It would not affect me as a subscriber in any way whatsoever.
I have no problem with people who put in more time getting their rewards faster/sooner, however I do have a problem with games designed in such a way that most people can't even attempt to get those rewards. Back in the old days of EQ the only way to get high end gear was through raiding. Raids typically required fifty or more people and typically lasted for ten or more hours in one sitting.
This I mostly agree with.
I would have no problem breaking up a Raid into say, 2 hour chuncks. The big reward comes when you do all the chuncks, and you have to do them in order, but you don't have to sit at the computer for 10 hours at a time.
However, I don't have a problem with it requiring 50 people, and THAT alone is going to take time to organize.
50+ people? When I played, we called that "zerging". Most raids, while every toon required the gold-bought resistance gear, included a "core" of 6-8 experienced, geared players, and took along 10-12 for the drops. This was true for vanilla through SoL when I played. I can only remember "sleeper" being the exception, and even that was a "pride contest" of "how few" people you could take to get it done. I remember we had that down to 9.
Taking 50 people to an eq1 raid in the first few years would have been a sloppy mess, especially in the pre-ventrillo days, when all dialogue was typed, and master loot rolls were done in chat. You were doing it wrong.
I don't know which game you're talking about but I'm talking about the first EQ. There is no way in hell 6 people could have handled a fear, hate, sky or dragon raid in vanilla EQ or any of the raids up through Luclin and probably planes of power. After that I have no idea because I was no longer playing.
I also have no idea what "gold-bought resistance gear" is supposed to be unless that was something added much later in the game. For one thing you couldn't buy more than a rusty weapon with gold because platinum was the highest denomination of coinage in EQ. Well you could, but you'd have to carry around 10's of thousands of gold coins and money had wieght in EQ so you wouldn't even be able to walk to the vendor to buy the thing you wanted to buy.
Maybe you're remembering going back to old content after you were level 70 or something in which case maybe a single group could have handled it but the original level cap was 50 and it was 60 through kunark and velious.
I said "gold-bought" as opposed to "cash-bought", which was prevalent in those days from sites like eqtraders and even ebay. Of course you could buy gear from players other than "rusty" weapons, the commonlands tunnel was the "bazaar spot" on every server. An example of "gold-bought" resistance gear was the blue diamond stuff, etc that was crafted.
Yes, we routinely did completion of hate, fear, sky, growth, contested dragons et. al. with a crew as I before notated, "a core of 6-8 experienced, geared players, and 10-12 along for the drops". This would be a raid of 16-20 people, and this was optimum. The people "being geared" weren't stand-by slouches who watched us get stuff for them; they had to help, of course. Often tho, they didn't yet have the equipment to really "shine" in the dps department, or the working knowledge of the zones' maps and mob layout to do emergency "clutch plays" like kiting or whatever, but it's why they were there: to get experienced and get equipped.
Certainly this is how it was, and still is for all I see in high end mmo gaming. You could take 50 people to a pre-kunark nagafen raid, for example, but without reisitance gear and appropriate dps, etc, everyone would just melt, then yell at each other and wander away, and we'd come in with 10, drop him, and sell people the scales in the commonlands tunnel. It's not "how many people", it's "the right people".
Comments
Casual gamers are killing the MMO genre.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Who do you think plays eve? People play facebook games hardcore. Because they can plan and play around their lives, rather than sacrifice their lives to play hardcore. Gameplay determines who your hardcore players will be.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
By choking it to death with money.
DARN you, casual gamers, and your money!
I just love your points
It is difficult to quantify hardcore or indeed casual as it is relative to the game/gamestyle. To me hardcore means 5-7 days a week mandatory progressive raiding guild, im sure it means a different thing to others though.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I find the concept of witholding content from anyone exceptionally selfish.
I had a conversation with a RL friend about MMOs and he thinks WoW was ruined because they 'took out the elitism' (his words), with the highest pieces of gear outside of Legenedaries being acquirable by everyone. He wants to have more stuff than everyone else, better stuff and doesn't even want anyone else to get a chance at it.
From what is sounds like, he just wants more individuality in the gear his character can get, but it's compunded with a selfish need to dperive others of said gear.
I can't stand that.
IMHO, I think all players should have an equal chance at doing things, an equal chance at fun. Sure people with more time on their hands will get things quicker, but that shouldn't bar players who don't have as much time to give from having the same privelege of earning rewards. It's a game, not a job. You go their to escape real life, not add to it's problems. If the casual player doesn't have the motivation or drive to spend time doing all of that (over a period of time) then more power to them let them pursue what they find enjoyable. But if a casual wants to run a certain dungeon, even if it takes him a lot longer than a 'hardcore,' than it shouldn't have to be the equivalent of swiming up a waterfall.
It's not a problem with most of the games, it's a problem with the Communities.
"I'm better than you, I won't help you because your new and I don't have the time, I have to go get better gear to inflate my already inflated ego."
Op, do you really want to understand, or do you just want to fight with us casuals? I don't want to explain something when you don't really WANT to change your point of view anyway.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm a casual player and I totally agree with the hardcore players. Yes! If they put more time in the game, DEFINITELY, they should have more stuff or whatever. BUT... About the monthly fee... I do think that since I DO play less, I should be able to pay less. Look at the Asian MMO market; They pay by the minute basically.
Buy 20 000 minutes and every time you log in, you lose minutes. I love this because I don't feel like I'm losing money since I'm only charged when I play.
So, no, someone that works less should not be paid as much as someone that works more.
But, should you get charged the same price if you're sitting way in the back at a concert or right near the stage?
Kinda like how I see this. Power to the hardcore players! But companies could do something about the monthly fees to help casuals. Or Hardcores as well cuz in a sense, you aren't playing 24/7 but you still pay for 24/7.
________________________
"If RL was an MMO, I'd probably be getting laid more often..."
This depends on what exactly you mean by "hardcore" and "casual". After I quit Everquest I was a crusader against "hardcore" favoritism for some years. But back in EQ that probably had a different meaning than it does now.
I have no problem with people who put in more time getting their rewards faster/sooner, however I do have a problem with games designed in such a way that most people can't even attempt to get those rewards. Back in the old days of EQ the only way to get high end gear was through raiding. Raids typically required fifty or more people and typically lasted for ten or more hours in one sitting.
So, in order to progress at endgame you first had to be accepted into a guild that could regularly field 50+ high level players. You then had to be able to attend raids which would almost certainly last at least ten hours consecutively and often more than that. Because of DKP systems you had to be willing to do those types of raids frequently if you wanted a chance to get any loot before you lost interest in the game and if you weren't willing to raid frequently you probably wouldn't be accepted into the guild in the first place.
So, basically, if you were unwilling or unable to sit down in front of your computer for 12 hours in one sitting three or four times a week you were just sh-t outta luck. Most people can't do that or simply don't want to do that. It wasn't just a matter of putting in your time to get your rewards; you had to put in huge blocks of time all in one sitting and you had to do it frequently and with a large number of other players. Fortunatelty that extreme insanity is dead I think.
But that used to be the hardcore/casual debate: Why shouldn't people who can basically play games 24/7 have exclusive access to endgame progression? Why should the horrible casuals who are unable to play marathon sessions several times a week be allowed any high level progression at all. I mean after all if they aren't putting in those marathon sessions they don't need the gear used in the marathon sessions so shouldn't be allowed to progress at all. Of course Sony eventually discovered that putting a brick wall in front of 90-some percent of their playerbase beyond which they could not progress meant that people wouldn't stick with their game when they started having more choices in gaming.
50+ people? When I played, we called that "zerging". Most raids, while every toon required the gold-bought resistance gear, included a "core" of 6-8 experienced, geared players, and took along 10-12 for the drops. This was true for vanilla through SoL when I played. I can only remember "sleeper" being the exception, and even that was a "pride contest" of "how few" people you could take to get it done. I remember we had that down to 9.
Taking 50 people to an eq1 raid in the first few years would have been a sloppy mess, especially in the pre-ventrillo days, when all dialogue was typed, and master loot rolls were done in chat. You were doing it wrong.
While high-end guilds in any game do have their core of "hardcore" people who play incessantly, this isn't the majority. Alot of people only "raid" 2 or 3 times a week, and reap the benefits of those more experienced players. The raids are scheduled as sort of "appointments", and yeh if you miss them it kinda wastes peoples' time, so you get dropped, but it's not every day and it's certainly not 24/7. Mostly the requirements would be you not be some dumbdick loudmouth and not flash some indicitive signs or behavior you were just going to try to sell your toon after you got "geared".
All it ever required that I've seen is you be a decent, friendly person, and word-of-mouth rumor or testimony of your exploits being a fair and competant gamer. I can't think of a single time a "nice person" was denied being guilded, even if they only played twice a week. Sure, sometimes people had to wait a month or two because of too many same-class people (no guild needs 20 necromancers), but that's just common sense.
Casual gamers should have options/things in the game that they can do and stuff enjoy the game. However, they should not get an artificial boost. Spending more time should open up the game to you.
It's one thing to cater to casual, its another thing to pander.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I don't know which game you're talking about but I'm talking about the first EQ. There is no way in hell 6 people could have handled a fear, hate, sky or dragon raid in vanilla EQ or any of the raids up through Luclin and probably planes of power. After that I have no idea because I was no longer playing.
I also have no idea what "gold-bought resistance gear" is supposed to be unless that was something added much later in the game. For one thing you couldn't buy more than a rusty weapon with gold because platinum was the highest denomination of coinage in EQ. Well you could, but you'd have to carry around 10's of thousands of gold coins and money had wieght in EQ so you wouldn't even be able to walk to the vendor to buy the thing you wanted to buy.
Maybe you're remembering going back to old content after you were level 70 or something in which case maybe a single group could have handled it but the original level cap was 50 and it was 60 through kunark and velious.
You're paying for entertainment.
If you pay 14.95 a month, you're getting a bargain if you get as much entertainment as you get from going to see a movie at the theater twice.
In other words, you need to play a little more than 4 hours a month for it to be a good deal.
Charging by the minute is probably going to cost more for the developer to keep up with billing, etc.
I imagine your per minute cost will be substantially larger than just paying 14.95 per month for unlimited game play.
BUT, if you were willing to pay that per minute cost, I"d certainly have nothing against it.
It would not affect me as a subscriber in any way whatsoever.
This I mostly agree with.
I would have no problem breaking up a Raid into say, 2 hour chuncks. The big reward comes when you do all the chuncks, and you have to do them in order, but you don't have to sit at the computer for 10 hours at a time.
However, I don't have a problem with it requiring 50 people, and THAT alone is going to take time to organize.
I said "gold-bought" as opposed to "cash-bought", which was prevalent in those days from sites like eqtraders and even ebay. Of course you could buy gear from players other than "rusty" weapons, the commonlands tunnel was the "bazaar spot" on every server. An example of "gold-bought" resistance gear was the blue diamond stuff, etc that was crafted.
Yes, we routinely did completion of hate, fear, sky, growth, contested dragons et. al. with a crew as I before notated, "a core of 6-8 experienced, geared players, and 10-12 along for the drops". This would be a raid of 16-20 people, and this was optimum. The people "being geared" weren't stand-by slouches who watched us get stuff for them; they had to help, of course. Often tho, they didn't yet have the equipment to really "shine" in the dps department, or the working knowledge of the zones' maps and mob layout to do emergency "clutch plays" like kiting or whatever, but it's why they were there: to get experienced and get equipped.
Certainly this is how it was, and still is for all I see in high end mmo gaming. You could take 50 people to a pre-kunark nagafen raid, for example, but without reisitance gear and appropriate dps, etc, everyone would just melt, then yell at each other and wander away, and we'd come in with 10, drop him, and sell people the scales in the commonlands tunnel. It's not "how many people", it's "the right people".