I might play TOR for 2-3 months tops, but the WoW-style structure is getting really old.
Also, the WoW-style MMO model is unsustainable long-term. How many Western MMOs since WoW have been able to use that structure, including payment structure, and been able to even maintain their initial playerbase?
TOR will sell over a million copies at launch then subscriptions will drop like a rock for the first six months to under 250,000 with under 200,000 after the first year. A steady decline will take place every month after that.
Although I agree (more or less) with the highlighted text, I fail to see where SWTOR is another wow clone. It looks like KOTOR Online to me.....and isn't that what it was supposed to be anyway???
Honestly, I think that from all that I have seen and read about this game, including the vast amount of content and polish it will feature....this may well be a game that I can settle into for a few years.
I personally think that people are too quick to paint a game as a "wow clone", simply because they may see some common features that are likely to be common in just about ANY MMORPG.
Even Greg Zeschuk, co-founder of Bioware, stated "It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb."
And TOR didn't have to be a WoW-style linear themepark with the 'holy trinity'. Even some sort of hybrid of themepark/sandpark would have at least been different. The path they chose for TOR may have looked great backin 2006 when they first started working on TOR, but it doesn't look like such a great long-term model now.
I am well aware of the quote in question.....in fact I believe it was posted in the first couple of months after TOR's initial announcement.
I am also aware of the fact that he is not the project leader, and as far as I know has nothing to do with the game's development.
You are looking at the game from the wrong perspective.....and trying to force it into one of the categories that are so casually thrown around this site these days.
Go play KOTOR, then watch some of that footage again. Look familiar??
KOTOR + new features + multiplayer = SWTOR.
I for one can appreciate that for what it is, and what it means.
That quote is from Feb. 2011.
then it's very similar to a quote that was issued back in late 2008 (Maybe the PC Gamer "First Look" piece? don't remember).
the point remains however, that other than being a figurehead / mouthpiece for the company, he has very little to do with the game's actual development.
On the other hand, this discussion prompted me to take a closer look at the SWTOR staff, and I am delighted to see that in March, Drew was moved from ME to this project. Ths virtually guarantees some amazing story elements, and makes me want the game even more.
I might play TOR for 2-3 months tops, but the WoW-style structure is getting really old.
Also, the WoW-style MMO model is unsustainable long-term. How many Western MMOs since WoW have been able to use that structure, including payment structure, and been able to even maintain their initial playerbase?
TOR will sell over a million copies at launch then subscriptions will drop like a rock for the first six months to under 250,000 with under 200,000 after the first year. A steady decline will take place every month after that.
This is a nonsensical argument. I mean, let's be objective, how many non-themepark MMO's besides EVE have been able to be very successful using a different structure?
Fact is that so far MMO's that stayed close to the WoW/themepark structure have thrived best among all the MMO's when it comes to revenue and when it comes to subs.
Trying to change the subject from themepark (large developers) to other structure (Indie developers) doesn't change the fact that the WoW model has failed for every major Western MMO studio since WoW's release. Look at LoTRO for example (a game that tried emulating the WoW model). It has won multiple game of the years honors and yet had to go free to play.
It was not the best long-term strategy to copy the WoW model. It may have seemed like a great idea in 2006.
First of all, lets put aside the Themepark vs Sandbox fight for a bit. If you want a true sandbox, this is NOT the game for you- go play a sandbox MMO. (If you want futuristic settings and space combat, I recommend EvE Online)
Secondly, many of us (myself included) Like raiding and instances. It doesn't have to be totally new an innovatitve to be successful, it just has to be 10% better (Thank you, Brian Tracy). Most of us just want to see updated engines, new content, and a new development and creative team behind a game. If all companies strive to be a little bit better than their competition, then we will have a lot of good games and content coming out. It either the ones who just try top flat out copy the others (Allods) or who try to be too new (Tabula Rasa), or who try to make a game specifially to beat WoW (Warhammer: AOR).
Even Greg Zeschuk, co-founder of Bioware, stated "It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb."
And TOR didn't have to be a WoW-style linear themepark with the 'holy trinity'. Even some sort of hybrid of themepark/sandpark would have at least been different. The path they chose for TOR may have looked great backin 2006 when they first started working on TOR, but it doesn't look like such a great long-term model now.
I am well aware of the quote in question.....in fact I believe it was posted in the first couple of months after TOR's initial announcement.
I am also aware of the fact that he is not the project leader, and as far as I know has nothing to do with the game's development.
You are looking at the game from the wrong perspective.....and trying to force it into one of the categories that are so casually thrown around this site these days.
Go play KOTOR, then watch some of that footage again. Look familiar??
KOTOR + new features + multiplayer = SWTOR.
I for one can appreciate that for what it is, and what it means.
That quote is from Feb. 2011.
then it's very similar to a quote that was issued back in late 2008 (Maybe the PC Gamer "First Look" piece? don't remember).
the point remains however, that other than being a figurehead / mouthpiece for the company, he has very little to do with the game's actual development.
On the other hand, this discussion prompted me to take a closer look at the SWTOR staff, and I am delighted to see that in March, Drew was moved from ME to this project. Ths virtually guarantees some amazing story elements, and makes me want the game even more.
He's only the co-founder, VP and top Creative Officer. If he says Bioware is emulating the WoW model, I'm going to trust him until shown otherwise.
This is a nonsensical argument. I mean, let's be objective, how many non-themepark MMO's besides EVE have been able to be very successful using a different structure?
Fact is that so far MMO's that stayed close to the WoW/themepark structure have thrived best among all the MMO's when it comes to revenue and when it comes to subs.
Trying to change the subject from themepark (large developers) to other structure (Indie developers) doesn't change the fact that the WoW model has failed for every major Western MMO studio since WoW's release. Look at LoTRO for example (a game that tried emulating the WoW model). It has won multiple game of the years honors and yet had to go free to play.
It was not the best long-term strategy to copy the WoW model. It may have seemed like a great idea in 2006.
I'm not changing the subject at all, I'm comparing, and so far MMO's that followed the WoW/themepark structure have done better than MMO's that didn't use it, leaving WoW and EVE out of the equation, you can't deny that.
So if those MMO's that copied WoW's model have failed in your eyes (while strangely enough having the same sub numbers or sometimes more than the pre-WoW MMO's) than those MMO's that DIDN'T use the WoW model have even failed more.
Looking at the past years, it doesn't sound strange to me that MMO companies still see the WoW/themepark model as the most viable and successful one. Because looking at the MMO's released, it is. FFXIV didn't fare well, APB neither, as well as a number of non-themepark MMO's.So yes, so far it has proven to be the best longterm strategy to continue on the WoW/themepark model path when looking at history objectively.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This is a nonsensical argument. I mean, let's be objective, how many non-themepark MMO's besides EVE have been able to be very successful using a different structure?
Fact is that so far MMO's that stayed close to the WoW/themepark structure have thrived best among all the MMO's when it comes to revenue and when it comes to subs.
Trying to change the subject from themepark (large developers) to other structure (Indie developers) doesn't change the fact that the WoW model has failed for every major Western MMO studio since WoW's release. Look at LoTRO for example (a game that tried emulating the WoW model). It has won multiple game of the years honors and yet had to go free to play.
It was not the best long-term strategy to copy the WoW model. It may have seemed like a great idea in 2006.
I'm not changing the subject at all, I'm comparing, and so far MMO's that followed the WoW/themepark structure have done better than MMO's that didn't use it, leaving WoW and EVE out of the equation, you can't deny that.
So if those MMO's that copied WoW's model have failed in your eyes (while strangely enough having the same sub numbers or sometimes more than the pre-WoW MMO's) than those MMO's that DIDN'T use the WoW model have even failed more.
Looking at the past years, it doesn't sound strange to me that MMO companies still see the WoW/themepark model as the most viable and successful one. Because looking at the MMO's released, it is. FFXIV didn't fare well, APB neither, as well as a number of non-themepark MMO's.So yes, so far it has proven to be the best longterm strategy to continue on the WoW/themepark model path when looking at history objectively.
My point is every major MMO studio that has attempted to emulate the WoW model down to payment structure has failed in that effort. They have all released their product (sometimes well), go off the deep end in terms of subscriptions a month or two later, and then try to take drastic measures to save the flawed model (LOTRO is the acception). And there have been a lot of them too. Pointing to failure by indie developers doesn't change this fact.
A little innovation on the part of Bioware while making one of the most expensive games in histrory would have been nice. Following the WoW "touchstone" may have seemed like a great idea in 2006, but it's 2011.
good question......had the game already been out live for 6 months. None of us have even PLAYED the game, let alone expierienced the end game content, seriosuly....
"Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said…’I’m too drunk to taste this chicken." - Ricky Bobby
My point is every major MMO studio that has attempted to emulate the WoW model down to payment structure has failed in that effort. They have all released their product (sometimes well), go off the deep end in terms of subscriptions a month or two later, and then try to take drastic measures to save the flawed model (LOTRO is the acception). And there have been a lot of them too. Pointing to failure by indie developers doesn't change this fact.
A little innovation on the part of Bioware while making one of the most expensive games in histrory would have been nice. Following the WoW "touchstone" may have seemed like a great idea in 2006, but it's 2011.
Shrug. Believe whatever you want to believe. You may not like it because I guess you abhor themepark/WoW style MMO's (very often that's the real reason) but the MMO's that you say have a 'wrong' model are still the ones that have done best over the years. Not the ones that didn't use a WoW/themepark model.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My point is every major MMO studio that has attempted to emulate the WoW model down to payment structure has failed in that effort. They have all released their product (sometimes well), go off the deep end in terms of subscriptions a month or two later, and then try to take drastic measures to save the flawed model (LOTRO is the acception). And there have been a lot of them too. Pointing to failure by indie developers doesn't change this fact.
A little innovation on the part of Bioware while making one of the most expensive games in histrory would have been nice. Following the WoW "touchstone" may have seemed like a great idea in 2006, but it's 2011.
Shrug. Believe whatever you want to believe. You may not like it because I guess you abhor themepark/WoW style MMO's (very often that's the real reason) but the MMO's that you say have a 'wrong' model are still the ones that have done best over the years. Not the ones that didn't use a WoW/themepark model.
I am getting tired of themeparks and was hoping for a tiny bit of innovation (a hybrid of sandbox and themepark would have been awesome but doesn't meet the WoW "touchstone"). But my point above was every major, experienced, successful MMO developer that has tried to emulate WoW down to the payment structure has done very poorly long-term (Turbine, Mythic, SOE and now Trion Worlds is headed that way). Again, major major MMO developers with a ton of experience trying way too hard to copy the WoW model instead of being innovative.
I am getting tired of themeparks and was hoping for a tiny bit of innovation (a hybrid of sandbox and themepark would have been awesome but doesn't meet the WoW "touchstone"). But my point above was every major, experienced, successful MMO developer that as tried to emulate WoW down the the payment structure has done very poorly long-term (Turbine, Mythic, SOE and now Trion Worlds is headed that way). Again, major major MMO developers with a ton of experience trying way too hard to copy the WoW model instead of being innovative.
For those who haven't grown sick or tired of themepark MMO's, SWTOR will be a great choice since it adds enough to offer a different perspective and feel to themepark gameplay.
However, for those who can't stand themepark MMO's anymore, there are still other MMO's upcoming that can maybe satisfy them: obviously not TERA of course, since that will be along the same themepark line, but GW2, ArcheAge, Firefall or The Secret World may be different enough to them, although I have to wonder if for some this aversion towards themepark MMO's doesn't camouflage a deeper aversion, an overall burnout regarding MMO's.
But make no mistake: innovation hasn't been a sure bet either, as recent MMO's like FFXIV and APB have proven. Rift, a themepark MMO that has a lot of WoW-style gameplay, beat those 2 MMO's with very different core gameplay fairly and squarely. Which is saying something. Apparently those MMO gamers craving different gameplay have their own requirements of how different and in what direction different that gameplay must be.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My point is every major MMO studio that has attempted to emulate the WoW model down to payment structure has failed in that effort. They have all released their product (sometimes well), go off the deep end in terms of subscriptions a month or two later, and then try to take drastic measures to save the flawed model (LOTRO is the acception). And there have been a lot of them too. Pointing to failure by indie developers doesn't change this fact.
A little innovation on the part of Bioware while making one of the most expensive games in histrory would have been nice. Following the WoW "touchstone" may have seemed like a great idea in 2006, but it's 2011.
Shrug. Believe whatever you want to believe. You may not like it because I guess you abhor themepark/WoW style MMO's (very often that's the real reason) but the MMO's that you say have a 'wrong' model are still the ones that have done best over the years. Not the ones that didn't use a WoW/themepark model.
I am getting tired of themeparks and was hoping for a tiny bit of innovation (a hybrid of sandbox and themepark would have been awesome but doesn't meet the WoW "touchstone"). But my point above was every major, experienced, successful MMO developer that has tried to emulate WoW down to the payment structure has done very poorly long-term (Turbine, Mythic, SOE and now Trion Worlds is headed that way). Again, major major MMO developers with a ton of experience trying way too hard to copy the WoW model instead of being innovative.
We got your point. We just question it's relevance to the conversation, since SWTOR is only a wow-clone to those who feel that they must compare every game to wow.
"OMG.....it has an action bar....and a fast travel system....and a subscription plan....it's a wow clone!!!!!1!!!111!!"
I hate to break it to ya, but most of the standard MMO features, including the "payment structure" were standards FAR before WoW adopted them, and probably always will be.
I would love a sandbox / themepark hybrid too, but SWTOR isn't going to be that game. It wouldn't feel like KOTOR. It's like asking for a hot-dog shaped hamburger.
Why would you play any MMO in the long term? You're gonna exhaust / get tired of content anyway, so why bother?
There is no logic in such statements. You get into a game because you like what content it has (in each case, what you think it has) at launch.
MMO's continuously add content and there are things like world PvP (most likely objective based) in TOR as well.
I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree. Many MMO players I know these days, including myself, aren't in these games for the long haul anymore. We buy them, play them until we get bored, then quit, at least until the next expansion comes out. Gone are the days when a large part of the community are players who are active for years (or even months) at a time.
This is a wide spread trend among players and companies know this. In fact it is starting to effect MMO production. Take a look at Cryptics games and SOEs DCUO. Neither company bothered to even attempt to add enough content to keep players playing indefinitley, just enough to get them hooked and then promised to add more to the game as time went by. A promise neither company has shown themselves to be able to keep very well.
As to what Bioware plans for players, I really think it is too early to tell. From what I've seen it does seem that they are focusing less on the end game grind fest and more on making leveling a new character an entertaining experiance. Sort of a"Tired of your Bounty Hunter? Why not go see how the Smuggler storyline quests pan out." kind of a thing.
I have to disagree with you completely.
My mmo circle was with SWG from launch day until they destroyed that game. And now most of us have been with LOTRO since launch and have lifetime subs.
And im sure we will absolutly have the same group move to SWTOR. and i know i plan on geting a lifetime sub if they make it available. jsut because u and ur friends like to jump ship regularly dont think thats the norm.
and if u think a 4 year commitment isnt the long haul then, please, tell me what is?
and i still wont leave lotro since im a lifer. ill follow that game till im attacking mordor.
as for SWG i was there for nearly 4 years... i stayed on that ship till it, unfortunatly hit the ocean floor where it lies to this day...
I think you missed my point. First, yeah I was there the first day SWG launched as well. When the game servers crashed and we couldn't actually play until the second day. I quit SWG for good when they pushed the CU release back a few months. I'm so glad I did considering how big a bantha turd that turned out to be. I was also in the closed beta of LOTRO. Neither of those make you or I or our friends members of the new breed of MMO gamers.
LOTRO due to the costraints of its IP is not something most of the "Wow" converts to gaming enjoy. Remember the outrage during beta about LOTRO not having an evil faction? So when I mentioned the short term game hopping demgraphic of MMOS, I did not mean you. Whether you choose to beleive it or not gamers like ourselves are now in the minority and these games are not being made with us in mind anymore.
Case in point, look how we long term gamers were rewarded by SOE. First the lame CU and then the abysmal NGE. And Turbine showed its small but loyal fan base (which is their own fault for allowing themselves to be fettered by the IP they chose) exactly what it thought of them by deciding to nearly abandon them for a year and instead build the freemium pricing system. They both decided our numbers and our loyalty wasn't enough and went off to chase some of that good old Wow pie in the sky. The problem being neither game is Wow one is far too old, and the other can't bring main stream players what they want due to lore restrictions, so they had lukewarm success at best.
So sorry, nothing you have posted changes my stance. Thanks however for expressing your opinion.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
My point is every major MMO studio that has attempted to emulate the WoW model down to payment structure has failed in that effort. They have all released their product (sometimes well), go off the deep end in terms of subscriptions a month or two later, and then try to take drastic measures to save the flawed model (LOTRO is the acception). And there have been a lot of them too. Pointing to failure by indie developers doesn't change this fact.
A little innovation on the part of Bioware while making one of the most expensive games in histrory would have been nice. Following the WoW "touchstone" may have seemed like a great idea in 2006, but it's 2011.
Shrug. Believe whatever you want to believe. You may not like it because I guess you abhor themepark/WoW style MMO's (very often that's the real reason) but the MMO's that you say have a 'wrong' model are still the ones that have done best over the years. Not the ones that didn't use a WoW/themepark model.
I am getting tired of themeparks and was hoping for a tiny bit of innovation (a hybrid of sandbox and themepark would have been awesome but doesn't meet the WoW "touchstone"). But my point above was every major, experienced, successful MMO developer that has tried to emulate WoW down to the payment structure has done very poorly long-term (Turbine, Mythic, SOE and now Trion Worlds is headed that way). Again, major major MMO developers with a ton of experience trying way too hard to copy the WoW model instead of being innovative.
We got your point. We just question it's relevance to the conversation, since SWTOR is only a wow-clone to those who feel that they must compare every game to wow.
"OMG.....it has an action bar....and a fast travel system....and a subscription plan....it's a wow clone!!!!!1!!!111!!"
I hate to break it to ya, but most of the standard MMO features, including the "payment structure" were standards FAR before WoW adopted them, and probably always will be.
I would love a sandbox / themepark hybrid too, but SWTOR isn't going to be that game. It wouldn't feel like KOTOR. It's like asking for a hot-dog shaped hamburger.
This should be tattoed on every forum in here. WOW did not innovate anything so to say that any game is copying them is just plain stupid. WOW took what worked in the genre and changed what was seen as negatives by gamers to make their MMORPG more appealing to a larger audience. They removed uneccessary time sinks and made their game more fun to play. They also had the benefit of the Warcraft franchise that brought new players in. Like it or not, it was a major success and it changed the genre for good. I understand that some of you gamers will never forgive Blizzard for that and wish that gaming companies would go back to spending money for a game that few will want to play, but it isn't going to happen. Gamers like familiarity with certain core mechanics, you can't just up and change everything just for the sake of changing it. Going on the forum of every new game and shouting to the moon isn't going to change it either and only makes you look like spoiled kids whining because someone took your cookie.
To asnwer the OP, I don't know if I'll be playing this game for the long term or not. What kind of a question is that when the game hasn't even been released? If it's fun then I'll stick around if it isn't then I move on. Simple.
We got your point. We just question it's relevance to the conversation, since SWTOR is only a wow-clone to those who feel that they must compare every game to wow.
"OMG.....it has an action bar....and a fast travel system....and a subscription plan....it's a wow clone!!!!!1!!!111!!"
I hate to break it to ya, but most of the standard MMO features, including the "payment structure" were standards FAR before WoW adopted them, and probably always will be.
I would love a sandbox / themepark hybrid too, but SWTOR isn't going to be that game. It wouldn't feel like KOTOR. It's like asking for a hot-dog shaped hamburger.
Winner post is a winner..
This WOW this WOW that stuff is getting so old to me, it's half the reason I hardly visit forums anymore. I liken it to hive-mindedness. It reminds me of the South Park episode where you constantly hear simpsons did it, simpsons did it!...
Most MMO's are essentially clones of some other formula that's come before. SWG a clone of UO, WOW a clone of EQ, EVE a clone of UO in space, or Elite if that tickles your fancy etc..., that's what creates a genre.
Every FPS is basically a clone of doom, every RTS a clone of what's come before, so on and so forth. Most action RPGS are clones of Baldurs gate, most open ended RPGS a clone of elder scrolls, most free roam action games are clones of GTA. That means nothing though, as it's the individual game that determines whether itself is fun to play or not, nothing else freaking matters.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We got your point. We just question it's relevance to the conversation, since SWTOR is only a wow-clone to those who feel that they must compare every game to wow.
"OMG.....it has an action bar....and a fast travel system....and a subscription plan....it's a wow clone!!!!!1!!!111!!"
I hate to break it to ya, but most of the standard MMO features, including the "payment structure" were standards FAR before WoW adopted them, and probably always will be.
I would love a sandbox / themepark hybrid too, but SWTOR isn't going to be that game. It wouldn't feel like KOTOR. It's like asking for a hot-dog shaped hamburger.
Winner post is a winner..
This WOW this WOW that stuff is getting so old to me, it's half the reason I hardly visit forums anymore. I liken it to hive-mindedness. It reminds me of the South Park episode where you constantly hear simpsons did it, simpsons did it!...
Most MMO's are essentially clones of some other formula that's come before. SWG a clone of UO, WOW a clone of EQ EVE a clone of UO in space or Elite if taht tickles your fancy etc..., that's what creates a genre.
Every FPS is basically a clone of doom, every RTS a clone of what's come before, so on and so forth. Most action RPGS are clones of Baldurs gate, most open ended RPGS a clone of elder scrolls, most free roam action games are clones of GTA. That means nothing though, as it's the individual game that determines whether itself is fun to play or not, nothing else freaking matters.
I'm suprised by how many people say this yet its completely ignored.
For me I am only interested in SWTOR for one reason alone, I like the idea of playing a BioWare RPG that most likely wont be tossed out in a year for a sequel, having MMO features is just a bonus to me.
I've always liked the idea of having a BioWare or BethSoft RPG with MMO elements, I don't desire more than that. ^_^
Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.
We got your point. We just question it's relevance to the conversation, since SWTOR is only a wow-clone to those who feel that they must compare every game to wow. "OMG.....it has an action bar....and a fast travel system....and a subscription plan....it's a wow clone!!!!!1!!!111!!"
I hate to break it to ya, but most of the standard MMO features, including the "payment structure" were standards FAR before WoW adopted them, and probably always will be. I would love a sandbox / themepark hybrid too, but SWTOR isn't going to be that game. It wouldn't feel like KOTOR. It's like asking for a hot-dog shaped hamburger.
Winner post is a winner..
This WOW this WOW that stuff is getting so old to me, it's half the reason I hardly visit forums anymore. I liken it to hive-mindedness. It reminds me of the South Park episode where you constantly hear simpsons did it, simpsons did it!...
Most MMO's are essentially clones of some other formula that's come before. SWG a clone of UO, WOW a clone of EQ, EVE a clone of UO in space, or Elite if that tickles your fancy etc..., that's what creates a genre.
Every FPS is basically a clone of doom, every RTS a clone of what's come before, so on and so forth. Most action RPGS are clones of Baldurs gate, most open ended RPGS a clone of elder scrolls, most free roam action games are clones of GTA. That means nothing though, as it's the individual game that determines whether itself is fun to play or not, nothing else freaking matters.
All the clones you chose are of games that are 'better' than their predecessors. They had enough new and unique features to be more fun and attract more players, in general. The last few batches of MMORPGs that have come out have not. That is the difference, to me.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Dunno about how long term I will play. The only thing that keeps me playing long term in any game is how much I can change the world, or how much there is to explore, or how much I can effect (possitively and/or heroicly) the community.
Expansions adding more quests, more gear, more raids, more dungeons, more battlegrounds, etc are a sad excuse to keep playing as far as I'm concerned, and I fear that BioWare has an itch to move in that oh so familiar direction.
They had an article about some sort of adventuring codecs the game will offer, to cater towards those of us who want to actually feel like we're exploring new places, making our own journey, and not just fast tracked to the next cinematic quest npc.
I'm not interested in what BioWare is doing with this game at all. Like, not one bit... but because of a promise to a friend of mine, and my undying love for Star Wars (ep. 4,5,6, and some of the novels) I will be buying the game at launch. If the exploration aspects can fool me into thinking I have a shred of Star Wars sci-fi sandbox gameplay, I might stay passed the free 30 days.
But I highly doubt it.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Gonna play to level limit, then probably 2 weeks more to check if there is anything to do that affects world play. If its mostly grind my gears to death, I will be done with it.
Gonna play to level limit, then probably 2 weeks more to check if there is anything to do that affects world play. If its mostly grind my gears to death, I will be done with it.
Said better than I could have said it.
We can only hope, dude.... *crosses fingers*
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Why would you play any MMO in the long term? You're gonna exhaust / get tired of content anyway, so why bother?
There is no logic in such statements. You get into a game because you like what content it has (in each case, what you think it has) at launch.
MMO's continuously add content and there are things like world PvP (most likely objective based) in TOR as well.
I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree. Many MMO players I know these days, including myself, aren't in these games for the long haul anymore. We buy them, play them until we get bored, then quit, at least until the next expansion comes out. Gone are the days when a large part of the community are players who are active for years (or even months) at a time.
This is a wide spread trend among players and companies know this. In fact it is starting to effect MMO production. Take a look at Cryptics games and SOEs DCUO. Neither company bothered to even attempt to add enough content to keep players playing indefinitley, just enough to get them hooked and then promised to add more to the game as time went by. A promise neither company has shown themselves to be able to keep very well.
As to what Bioware plans for players, I really think it is too early to tell. From what I've seen it does seem that they are focusing less on the end game grind fest and more on making leveling a new character an entertaining experiance. Sort of a"Tired of your Bounty Hunter? Why not go see how the Smuggler storyline quests pan out." kind of a thing.
I have to disagree with you completely.
My mmo circle was with SWG from launch day until they destroyed that game. And now most of us have been with LOTRO since launch and have lifetime subs.
And im sure we will absolutly have the same group move to SWTOR. and i know i plan on geting a lifetime sub if they make it available. jsut because u and ur friends like to jump ship regularly dont think thats the norm.
and if u think a 4 year commitment isnt the long haul then, please, tell me what is?
and i still wont leave lotro since im a lifer. ill follow that game till im attacking mordor.
as for SWG i was there for nearly 4 years... i stayed on that ship till it, unfortunatly hit the ocean floor where it lies to this day...
I think you missed my point. First, yeah I was there the first day SWG launched as well. When the game servers crashed and we couldn't actually play until the second day. I quit SWG for good when they pushed the CU release back a few months. I'm so glad I did considering how big a bantha turd that turned out to be. I was also in the closed beta of LOTRO. Neither of those make you or I or our friends members of the new breed of MMO gamers.
LOTRO due to the costraints of its IP is not something most of the "Wow" converts to gaming enjoy. Remember the outrage during beta about LOTRO not having an evil faction? So when I mentioned the short term game hopping demgraphic of MMOS, I did not mean you. Whether you choose to beleive it or not gamers like ourselves are now in the minority and these games are not being made with us in mind anymore.
Case in point, look how we long term gamers were rewarded by SOE. First the lame CU and then the abysmal NGE. And Turbine showed its small but loyal fan base (which is their own fault for allowing themselves to be fettered by the IP they chose) exactly what it thought of them by deciding to nearly abandon them for a year and instead build the freemium pricing system. They both decided our numbers and our loyalty wasn't enough and went off to chase some of that good old Wow pie in the sky. The problem being neither game is Wow one is far too old, and the other can't bring main stream players what they want due to lore restrictions, so they had lukewarm success at best.
So sorry, nothing you have posted changes my stance. Thanks however for expressing your opinion.
I get your point, and I def did not expect to change your opinion. Nor will i change any of mine.
No matter what, im over excited for SWTOR. Im very optimistic And have high hopes for it.
They dont need to reinvent the wheel, just use that wheel idea on a sick bumblebee like camaro instead of an old covered wagon... :-D
This WOW this WOW that stuff is getting so old to me, it's half the reason I hardly visit forums anymore. I liken it to hive-mindedness. It reminds me of the South Park episode where you constantly hear simpsons did it, simpsons did it!...
Most MMO's are essentially clones of some other formula that's come before. SWG a clone of UO, WOW a clone of EQ, EVE a clone of UO in space, or Elite if that tickles your fancy etc..., that's what creates a genre.
Every FPS is basically a clone of doom, every RTS a clone of what's come before, so on and so forth. Most action RPGS are clones of Baldurs gate, most open ended RPGS a clone of elder scrolls, most free roam action games are clones of GTA. That means nothing though, as it's the individual game that determines whether itself is fun to play or not, nothing else freaking matters.
All the clones you chose are of games that are 'better' than their predecessors. They had enough new and unique features to be more fun and attract more players, in general. The last few batches of MMORPGs that have come out have not. That is the difference, to me.
In my personal opinion, the only game that offered truly unique features out of those I listed was SWG, that's just me though. The others were more innovative on a technical level. Take WOW for example, it's main innovation to the genre was ease of use, streamlining if you will. EVE offered it's one server ideal to the equation, but offered game-play and features that were wide spread in the Space sim genre.
Since then the MMO genre has only taken Baby steps, AOC offered a slightly different approach to combat and presentation. WAR a new take on world PVP within an MMO. Now whether these games did okay or not really isn't my point, my point is companies still try new things.
IT's very similar to the way other genre's have developed over time, huge leaps then tiny steps in refinement. It's not much different than trying a new spice within a recipe. Sometimes it catches on sometimes it makes people puke. Things are no different here really.
-Edit a little something to help connect my two posts and the overall subject of the thread.
People keep asking for these huge leaps in MMO development with every new announcment. Such as here in this thread we as a "community", seem to always ask for more, yet we offer nothing of value on what else we could possibly be seeking.
What is meaningful to me? What will make me stick around? Community!Which is at everyone's disposal, maybe stop worrying so much and start building one? That's exactly what old server inhabitants of mine are busy doing at this time, we know that's what will keep us around. This is what an MMO is.
As long as the game doesn't change every 3 updates, and plays solidly we could care less what end-game offers we are the end game, the purpose. We will have forum drama, we will have cross guild drama, we will have player made events, we are the game.
Features are gimmicks, you run them as long as you can stomach them. Yet, because you're so worried about game feature mechanics, you're missing what's important: friends (guilds), enemies(PVP), parties(social events, pvp events etc..), healthy trade (player economy).
End game in an MMO doesn't need ever expanding content, it needs true communities, without them the entirety of the game is pointless. Players are ruining the MMO genre, they forgot what it was supposed to be about, they approach them like the next Call of Duty they are not meant to be that, they're not that genre.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
then it's very similar to a quote that was issued back in late 2008 (Maybe the PC Gamer "First Look" piece? don't remember).
the point remains however, that other than being a figurehead / mouthpiece for the company, he has very little to do with the game's actual development.
On the other hand, this discussion prompted me to take a closer look at the SWTOR staff, and I am delighted to see that in March, Drew was moved from ME to this project. Ths virtually guarantees some amazing story elements, and makes me want the game even more.
Trying to change the subject from themepark (large developers) to other structure (Indie developers) doesn't change the fact that the WoW model has failed for every major Western MMO studio since WoW's release. Look at LoTRO for example (a game that tried emulating the WoW model). It has won multiple game of the years honors and yet had to go free to play.
It was not the best long-term strategy to copy the WoW model. It may have seemed like a great idea in 2006.
First of all, lets put aside the Themepark vs Sandbox fight for a bit. If you want a true sandbox, this is NOT the game for you- go play a sandbox MMO. (If you want futuristic settings and space combat, I recommend EvE Online)
Secondly, many of us (myself included) Like raiding and instances. It doesn't have to be totally new an innovatitve to be successful, it just has to be 10% better (Thank you, Brian Tracy). Most of us just want to see updated engines, new content, and a new development and creative team behind a game. If all companies strive to be a little bit better than their competition, then we will have a lot of good games and content coming out. It either the ones who just try top flat out copy the others (Allods) or who try to be too new (Tabula Rasa), or who try to make a game specifially to beat WoW (Warhammer: AOR).
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
He's only the co-founder, VP and top Creative Officer. If he says Bioware is emulating the WoW model, I'm going to trust him until shown otherwise.
I'm not changing the subject at all, I'm comparing, and so far MMO's that followed the WoW/themepark structure have done better than MMO's that didn't use it, leaving WoW and EVE out of the equation, you can't deny that.
So if those MMO's that copied WoW's model have failed in your eyes (while strangely enough having the same sub numbers or sometimes more than the pre-WoW MMO's) than those MMO's that DIDN'T use the WoW model have even failed more.
Looking at the past years, it doesn't sound strange to me that MMO companies still see the WoW/themepark model as the most viable and successful one. Because looking at the MMO's released, it is. FFXIV didn't fare well, APB neither, as well as a number of non-themepark MMO's.So yes, so far it has proven to be the best longterm strategy to continue on the WoW/themepark model path when looking at history objectively.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My point is every major MMO studio that has attempted to emulate the WoW model down to payment structure has failed in that effort. They have all released their product (sometimes well), go off the deep end in terms of subscriptions a month or two later, and then try to take drastic measures to save the flawed model (LOTRO is the acception). And there have been a lot of them too. Pointing to failure by indie developers doesn't change this fact.
A little innovation on the part of Bioware while making one of the most expensive games in histrory would have been nice. Following the WoW "touchstone" may have seemed like a great idea in 2006, but it's 2011.
good question......had the game already been out live for 6 months. None of us have even PLAYED the game, let alone expierienced the end game content, seriosuly....
Shrug. Believe whatever you want to believe. You may not like it because I guess you abhor themepark/WoW style MMO's (very often that's the real reason) but the MMO's that you say have a 'wrong' model are still the ones that have done best over the years. Not the ones that didn't use a WoW/themepark model.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
there is just one good answer: it has lightsabers and the...
just two good answers, it has lightsabers, the force and..
there are just three good answers, it has lightsabers, the force and laser weapons!
also, nobody expects the sith inquisition
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I am getting tired of themeparks and was hoping for a tiny bit of innovation (a hybrid of sandbox and themepark would have been awesome but doesn't meet the WoW "touchstone"). But my point above was every major, experienced, successful MMO developer that has tried to emulate WoW down to the payment structure has done very poorly long-term (Turbine, Mythic, SOE and now Trion Worlds is headed that way). Again, major major MMO developers with a ton of experience trying way too hard to copy the WoW model instead of being innovative.
Yep, and who said the inquisition can't be fun?
For those who haven't grown sick or tired of themepark MMO's, SWTOR will be a great choice since it adds enough to offer a different perspective and feel to themepark gameplay.
However, for those who can't stand themepark MMO's anymore, there are still other MMO's upcoming that can maybe satisfy them: obviously not TERA of course, since that will be along the same themepark line, but GW2, ArcheAge, Firefall or The Secret World may be different enough to them, although I have to wonder if for some this aversion towards themepark MMO's doesn't camouflage a deeper aversion, an overall burnout regarding MMO's.
But make no mistake: innovation hasn't been a sure bet either, as recent MMO's like FFXIV and APB have proven. Rift, a themepark MMO that has a lot of WoW-style gameplay, beat those 2 MMO's with very different core gameplay fairly and squarely. Which is saying something. Apparently those MMO gamers craving different gameplay have their own requirements of how different and in what direction different that gameplay must be.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
We got your point. We just question it's relevance to the conversation, since SWTOR is only a wow-clone to those who feel that they must compare every game to wow.
"OMG.....it has an action bar....and a fast travel system....and a subscription plan....it's a wow clone!!!!!1!!!111!!"
I hate to break it to ya, but most of the standard MMO features, including the "payment structure" were standards FAR before WoW adopted them, and probably always will be.
I would love a sandbox / themepark hybrid too, but SWTOR isn't going to be that game. It wouldn't feel like KOTOR. It's like asking for a hot-dog shaped hamburger.
I think you missed my point. First, yeah I was there the first day SWG launched as well. When the game servers crashed and we couldn't actually play until the second day. I quit SWG for good when they pushed the CU release back a few months. I'm so glad I did considering how big a bantha turd that turned out to be. I was also in the closed beta of LOTRO. Neither of those make you or I or our friends members of the new breed of MMO gamers.
LOTRO due to the costraints of its IP is not something most of the "Wow" converts to gaming enjoy. Remember the outrage during beta about LOTRO not having an evil faction? So when I mentioned the short term game hopping demgraphic of MMOS, I did not mean you. Whether you choose to beleive it or not gamers like ourselves are now in the minority and these games are not being made with us in mind anymore.
Case in point, look how we long term gamers were rewarded by SOE. First the lame CU and then the abysmal NGE. And Turbine showed its small but loyal fan base (which is their own fault for allowing themselves to be fettered by the IP they chose) exactly what it thought of them by deciding to nearly abandon them for a year and instead build the freemium pricing system. They both decided our numbers and our loyalty wasn't enough and went off to chase some of that good old Wow pie in the sky. The problem being neither game is Wow one is far too old, and the other can't bring main stream players what they want due to lore restrictions, so they had lukewarm success at best.
So sorry, nothing you have posted changes my stance. Thanks however for expressing your opinion.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
This should be tattoed on every forum in here. WOW did not innovate anything so to say that any game is copying them is just plain stupid. WOW took what worked in the genre and changed what was seen as negatives by gamers to make their MMORPG more appealing to a larger audience. They removed uneccessary time sinks and made their game more fun to play. They also had the benefit of the Warcraft franchise that brought new players in. Like it or not, it was a major success and it changed the genre for good. I understand that some of you gamers will never forgive Blizzard for that and wish that gaming companies would go back to spending money for a game that few will want to play, but it isn't going to happen. Gamers like familiarity with certain core mechanics, you can't just up and change everything just for the sake of changing it. Going on the forum of every new game and shouting to the moon isn't going to change it either and only makes you look like spoiled kids whining because someone took your cookie.
To asnwer the OP, I don't know if I'll be playing this game for the long term or not. What kind of a question is that when the game hasn't even been released? If it's fun then I'll stick around if it isn't then I move on. Simple.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Winner post is a winner..
This WOW this WOW that stuff is getting so old to me, it's half the reason I hardly visit forums anymore. I liken it to hive-mindedness. It reminds me of the South Park episode where you constantly hear simpsons did it, simpsons did it!...
Most MMO's are essentially clones of some other formula that's come before. SWG a clone of UO, WOW a clone of EQ, EVE a clone of UO in space, or Elite if that tickles your fancy etc..., that's what creates a genre.
Every FPS is basically a clone of doom, every RTS a clone of what's come before, so on and so forth. Most action RPGS are clones of Baldurs gate, most open ended RPGS a clone of elder scrolls, most free roam action games are clones of GTA. That means nothing though, as it's the individual game that determines whether itself is fun to play or not, nothing else freaking matters.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm suprised by how many people say this yet its completely ignored.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
For me I am only interested in SWTOR for one reason alone, I like the idea of playing a BioWare RPG that most likely wont be tossed out in a year for a sequel, having MMO features is just a bonus to me.
I've always liked the idea of having a BioWare or BethSoft RPG with MMO elements, I don't desire more than that. ^_^
Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.
All the clones you chose are of games that are 'better' than their predecessors. They had enough new and unique features to be more fun and attract more players, in general. The last few batches of MMORPGs that have come out have not. That is the difference, to me.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Dunno about how long term I will play. The only thing that keeps me playing long term in any game is how much I can change the world, or how much there is to explore, or how much I can effect (possitively and/or heroicly) the community.
Expansions adding more quests, more gear, more raids, more dungeons, more battlegrounds, etc are a sad excuse to keep playing as far as I'm concerned, and I fear that BioWare has an itch to move in that oh so familiar direction.
They had an article about some sort of adventuring codecs the game will offer, to cater towards those of us who want to actually feel like we're exploring new places, making our own journey, and not just fast tracked to the next cinematic quest npc.
I'm not interested in what BioWare is doing with this game at all. Like, not one bit... but because of a promise to a friend of mine, and my undying love for Star Wars (ep. 4,5,6, and some of the novels) I will be buying the game at launch. If the exploration aspects can fool me into thinking I have a shred of Star Wars sci-fi sandbox gameplay, I might stay passed the free 30 days.
But I highly doubt it.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Gonna play to level limit, then probably 2 weeks more to check if there is anything to do that affects world play. If its mostly grind my gears to death, I will be done with it.
Said better than I could have said it.
We can only hope, dude.... *crosses fingers*
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
I get your point, and I def did not expect to change your opinion. Nor will i change any of mine.
No matter what, im over excited for SWTOR. Im very optimistic And have high hopes for it.
They dont need to reinvent the wheel, just use that wheel idea on a sick bumblebee like camaro instead of an old covered wagon... :-D
In my personal opinion, the only game that offered truly unique features out of those I listed was SWG, that's just me though. The others were more innovative on a technical level. Take WOW for example, it's main innovation to the genre was ease of use, streamlining if you will. EVE offered it's one server ideal to the equation, but offered game-play and features that were wide spread in the Space sim genre.
Since then the MMO genre has only taken Baby steps, AOC offered a slightly different approach to combat and presentation. WAR a new take on world PVP within an MMO. Now whether these games did okay or not really isn't my point, my point is companies still try new things.
IT's very similar to the way other genre's have developed over time, huge leaps then tiny steps in refinement. It's not much different than trying a new spice within a recipe. Sometimes it catches on sometimes it makes people puke. Things are no different here really.
-Edit a little something to help connect my two posts and the overall subject of the thread.
People keep asking for these huge leaps in MMO development with every new announcment. Such as here in this thread we as a "community", seem to always ask for more, yet we offer nothing of value on what else we could possibly be seeking.
What is meaningful to me? What will make me stick around? Community!Which is at everyone's disposal, maybe stop worrying so much and start building one? That's exactly what old server inhabitants of mine are busy doing at this time, we know that's what will keep us around. This is what an MMO is.
As long as the game doesn't change every 3 updates, and plays solidly we could care less what end-game offers we are the end game, the purpose. We will have forum drama, we will have cross guild drama, we will have player made events, we are the game.
Features are gimmicks, you run them as long as you can stomach them. Yet, because you're so worried about game feature mechanics, you're missing what's important: friends (guilds), enemies(PVP), parties(social events, pvp events etc..), healthy trade (player economy).
End game in an MMO doesn't need ever expanding content, it needs true communities, without them the entirety of the game is pointless. Players are ruining the MMO genre, they forgot what it was supposed to be about, they approach them like the next Call of Duty they are not meant to be that, they're not that genre.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Indeed. The fact that it's a Star Wars game, and that I am a die-hard Star Wars geek will keep me playing.
And if I find a great guild, and get some RP in, that is all the content I need beyond level cap, really.
Anything else is just gravy.