I would agree that many people can't stomach losses. If you PvP me and lose...it must be because I cheated. It must be because of lag. It must be because I exploited something. Non PvPer's don't handle loss. If you are playing a single player game and die, you respawn at the checkpoint.
If you die in a MMORPG, with full loot ...you lose all your stuff. Now, not only have you lost(ego deflating) you have lost an ingame monetary amount of goods(financial loss). Combine this with someone who is new to it...and you have the makings of a ragequit or a "please fix your stupid game" post.
It is amazing that people actually think that whenever they engage another human being in a game...*shudder* they might LOSE. Can you imagine? Maybe the answer is making all the single player games really, really hard. Get rid of all the checkpoints. If you die, you start completely over.
Remove all exceptional gear, so if you lose...so what. Would you play a game like this? Oh that's right, it's call a first person shooter. Learning the ins and outs of each game's mechanics that involve PvP would seem like common sense. I guess it isn't so common after all.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
I would agree that many people can't stomach losses. If you PvP me and lose...it must be because I cheated. It must be because of lag. It must be because I exploited something. Non PvPer's don't handle loss. If you are playing a single player game and die, you respawn at the checkpoint.
If you die in a MMORPG, with full loot ...you lose all your stuff. Now, not only have you lost(ego deflating) you have lost an ingame monetary amount of goods(financial loss). Combine this with someone who is new to it...and you have the makings of a ragequit or a "please fix your stupid game" post.
It is amazing that people actually think that whenever they engage another human being in a game...*shudder* they might LOSE. Can you imagine? Maybe the answer is making all the single player games really, really hard. Get rid of all the checkpoints. If you die, you start completely over.
Remove all exceptional gear, so if you lose...so what. Would you play a game like this? Oh that's right, it's call a first person shooter. Learning the ins and outs of each game's mechanics that involve PvP would seem like common sense. I guess it isn't so common after all.
Exactly. That's actually the point some of us are making, which is on the lines of why PVP is not a natural part of MMO's or even RPGs in general. But, it's here, and probably not going anywhere, so those of you/us who want to play an RPG, and still want to be able to PVP, then we/you need to understand that part of having that cake and eating it too means that we/you have to accept that gear, level, build, talents, time played, stats, etc all share a peice of what determines who wins, on top of the players actual skill.
This is not hard to understand. All that's left is for you/us to decide if we "like it" or not. If you want pvp and don't like it, then I think twitch based games are what you should play instead.
Well considering I gave up on MMORPG PVP back in 2007 or so, the decision of whether I "like it" has already been made. :P
As a nitpick "twitch" gameplay actually has nothing to do with it. I still like Chess and Magic: the Gathering, and these are strong PVP games but they involve no twitch whatsoever.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I played for years chess online and you could play agains strong players and be beaten alot but only difference between chess and pvp in mmo's is that chess players dont go to forum to whine wholeday and wanne change game so they can win also agains strong players, they just seek players eventually that are about same strenght.
Um, the differences between Chess and MMO PVP are more:
You don't play Chess against someone who has 10 Queens because they were grinding tradeskills before you sat down to play.
You don't play Chess against some guy whose King has Divine Plate armor which forces you to checkmate twice in a row to win.
You don't play Chess against someone whose three friends join the match mid-game with their own pieces.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I played for years chess online and you could play agains strong players and be beaten alot but only difference between chess and pvp in mmo's is that chess players dont go to forum to whine wholeday and wanne change game so they can win also agains strong players, they just seek players eventually that are about same strenght.
Um, the differences between Chess and MMO PVP are more:
You don't play Chess against someone who has 10 Queens because they were grinding tradeskills before you sat down to play.
You don't play Chess against some guy whose King has Divine Plate armor which forces you to checkmate twice in a row to win.
You don't play Chess against someone whose three friends join the match mid-game with their own pieces.
And that very deterministic, predictable nature is why I am utterly uninterested in Chess.
I wouldn't consider myself an elitist, but I do pride myself at being good at what I'm doing.
What I dislike is games where someone with the better gear will always win by facerolling, rather than their ability to play the game.
Congrats on spending countless hours doing something boring to get better gear than me, now press 2 buttons and win.
I hate this.
Skill should be a major deciding factor in PVP. "I got outplayed" is something more fun to lose to than "He farmed for hours to get better gear".
I don't like researching to pick an overpowered class and get some specific gear so that I can just easily win all my fights, how boring is that?!
I play a Rogue, Mage, or Healer archetype, and I love when I manage to beat multiple enemies because I outplay them, or support my team well. I don't brag about it, but it feels good. But I don't want it handed to me either, which coincides with the Overpowered class = boring.
I want my PVP to be based on how well I play, rather than how much time I'm willing to spend doing something I don't find fun (farming for gear).
I find people who create low level characters and gear them out completely just to faceroll low level PVP to be pathetic. To me it's saying "I can't play against people my own level, so I'm going to play in such a way that I don't even have to try".
That may sound elitist, but It's just frustrating when you're trying to have fun or level up through PVP.
I also hate the whole "Auto attack + 1-0" thing that's been going around forever now, but that's a different animal.
The other view on this issue is that you are just not good at playing RPGs and are using your twitch 'skills' to compensate for your lack of RPG skills. The person with better gear is showing a better ability to play the game then you and you are just whining because your better twitch skills are not giving you an unfair advantage.
It really boils down to whether you think RPGs should be about the character's abilities or the player's physical abilities.
To me skill in an RPG game has always been about building a character and trying to make it as perfect a build as you can come up with. The other aspect is strategic and tactical thinking where resource management and positioning is key.
In many ways I am an elitist since I simply cannot give twitch-based gameplay as much respect as I give to more strategic games.
My main concern with gear dependance in MMORPGs is with how the gear is obtained since I really do not consider griniding to be in the spirit of RPGs as well.
I love strategy, I love having better positioning than my opponent, and using my skills at the right time to counter my enemies choice in abilities, I'm not saying my "twitch skill" should come in to play, I'm saying that in alot of situations, when I completely outplay my opponents in PVP by countering all their decisions, and they can still beat me because of their gear, there's an issue.
Say you have 2 stuns, one is 2 seconds, one is 3. I wait out the 2 and use my escape on the 3 immediately and put you in to my own stun. However your gear is better than mine, so I can't put out enough damage against you even though I've outplayed you, and you are able to take huge shots at my life with your most basic abilities. So I set myself up and predicted your stun, countered it, now I start my own combo, a long chain of my moves that I am constantly thinking about your next 3 moves, however my damage only gets you to 50-75% while your poor choices have killed me through gear.
I'm the guy who plans his fight before it even happens, but has the twitch skills to adapt to things that don't go as planned. I see an enemy capable of big damage but has powerful healing too. I will save any kind of interrupt for that heal, as well as any escape ability to get out of a stun so they can't stun/heal. I will always have something in mind incase someone else tries to attack me (CC), I will run from something I know I will lose.
I've won 5v1s in games by outplaying my enemies, and it feels amazing, it's really something that feels like you made a huge accomplishment when you can outplay 5 enemies at once, using strategy and skill alike, when you have equal or worse gear.
I'm not saying Gear shouldn't play a factor, I'm saying gear shouldn't be a major DECIDING factor. I hate grinding as you do, it's boring and not fun.
Daoc 3 faction pvp was awesome, it is clearly the way to go.
Gear based games suck for anyone who played anything different.
In an mmo, the players should be crafting your gear, you shouldnt be grinding dungeons for it.
There was a time in daoc when you got to 50, had a suit made and had someone spellcraft it, and you were ready to go, except maybe for some jewelry, that you could either quest for, or buy.
Bind on pickup is the true enemy of all mmo players, whether you realize it or not. I cant trade this sword i picked up, why?
If you enjoy gear grinding bs, then why dont you come over here to my house, ill dangle a carrot in front of you, and you can do menial tasks around the house, in hopes that maybe you will get the carrot, but you wont.
Other than that, yeah it seems like people are afraid to die for some reason. Ive seen it many times, and i dont get it. Especially when you have nothing to lose. Why else would people prefer pve over pvp? Pve is safe and easy, its always predictable.
The other view on this issue is that you are just not good at playing RPGs and are using your twitch 'skills' to compensate for your lack of RPG skills. The person with better gear is showing a better ability to play the game then you and you are just whining because your better twitch skills are not giving you an unfair advantage.
It really boils down to whether you think RPGs should be about the character's abilities or the player's physical abilities.
The problem is, the person with better gear is not showing they are better at playing the game, they are generally only showing that they have more time to play the game (HUGE difference).
When dealing with PVP, player SKILL should be the deciding factor. Just because your enemy has spent more time grinding PVE encounters shouldn't result in them having a huge advantage in PVP - at least in my eyes.
That's what I miss about old school MMO's. Player skill was the (primary) deciding factor, not class, gear or level. Sure, gear & progression helped, but if you were a terrible player a set of purples wasn't going to auto-win fights for you like it does these days.
Player skill and strategies meant tight nit groups could defeat zergs, these days it's usually just a battle of numbers, levels, or gear. And it's beyond lame.
Imo, this feeds into the I spend more time into this game therefore i should have a much higher chance of winning.
Gear Cap MMOs + PvP = Win
This makes the game feel more like a shooter at times, but it does have a cap where a fresh max level character isn't going to compete at the same level, but atleast at some point he can catch up with you. However every game has a gear cap, its just whether its set to the point where its feasible for everyone to get to in time. WoW has an inevitable gear cap, but only a very few every reach that pinnacle.
I truly believe that if in a pvp game, every toon was a 100% clone of the others, and that even if every battle had an even split between opposing forces, the people who lost would still say the game was unbalanced.
Rock says: paper is overpowered, but scissors is fine.
Fps and rts are all about pvp and they have zero problem with it, even balance is not a very common theme of discussion.
The problem with mmorpg is the fact they are about character progression to simulate the gain of experience in old pen& paper rpg. This is more or less The main factor in mmorpg. A lot of people seam to think that RPG mean xp bar, but they are so very wrong, a lot of rpg don't even have xp and you can definitly role play very well in them, but thats an other issue. Mmo with heavier character progression are clearly harder to balance pvp wise; because pvp is about player skill, not character skills.
So since pvp mmo should be a mix of character and player skill, here come balance problem since those are antinomic right.
Thats why the new trend of pvp mmo lean to resolve this problem in bringing some fps aspect to the pvp mmo, it is a developer and pvper choice. People that want a win button should stick to pve game with their uber character skills imo.
On top of that people like different style of pvp, some like pking, faction, guild wars, competitve pvp... so you have to please everyone here, and not hurt the rest of the crew, since some will love some aspect and hate others. I will even go and say that some definitly like to have win button in pvp, they will prefer grinding their ass and boting for few years, and access their win button in pvp rather than grow some player skill and fight in a even field. So respect, if they like this and claim to like this without any sort of complexe and lies about it, then be it. So i take out my above comment about carebear pvper
The more choice and facettes a mmo have the better it will be oviously since massive is the first word in mmorpg.
Also the itemisation is the chery on the cake. In fps/rts itemisation have pretty much zero influence. In mmo its a huge factor, how much of a factor it should have in pvp/pve. I don't know one mmo that have the same damage formula for pve and pvp, that says it all.
And finaly in mmo since the player get psychologicaly attached to their toon, and even the hardcore pvper can claim all over its just a game blabla and others are just pussies, they are the first that get pissed and rage and trash talk. The drama factor is huge in mmorpg, and that's why some will prefer it over fps that are mostly emotionless in fact. I personally don't like drama that much, i prefer a clean fight, and i can't stand trash talking for hours L2 style.
So now balance all those factors!!!
I honestly think and thats the new trend, i think you better split the pve/pvp aspects as much as you can and just keep some links between them. I think Aion was very good and definitly was a lot better pvp wise than most people claimed because of that. They really tryed to play on those aspects on a level no other pvp game played up until now. We will see how it goes in the next gen.
II) Instanced BGs - You know why this is funny? Because what people are really doing when they mention instanced bg's is finding a way to complain about WoW. You know that all the battle grounds in DAoC were instanced right? Thid.. molv etc.. Yet people talk about how great they were... (myself included).
Just wanted to clear something up that you're a little mistaken about. BGs in daoc were not instanced, they were zones. An instance will have multiple copies of that zone created when it reaches a certain qualifier such as number of people, ie 10 vs 10, 20 vs 20, 40 people in a raid etc.
The BGs in daoc are zones, like what everquest used. A loading screen, a pause to transport you to another enclosed area, but no limit on the amount of people that can enter. No duplicate zone because there are too many. They did limit the BGs to level ranges, but that was for more competitive gameplay and action. The frontiers of course had no limit.
I would have loved if WoW had BGs like daoc, with no limit on the amount of people, but maybe just by level range. It would have been like open world pvp, concentrated in popular spots. I remember having massive battles near ubrs. It had that chaotic feeling I got in daoc with crazy numbers. That all stopped once they put in the BGs mostly.
Originally posted by Vigiliance Originally posted by Foomerang Gear Progression MMOs + PvP = Fail Imo, this feeds into the I spend more time into this game therefore i should have a much higher chance of winning.
Gear Cap MMOs + PvP = Win This makes the game feel more like a shooter at times, but it does have a cap where a fresh max level character isn't going to compete at the same level, but atleast at some point he can catch up with you. However every game has a gear cap, its just whether its set to the point where its feasible for everyone to get to in time. WoW has an inevitable gear cap, but only a very few every reach that pinnacle.
This is my take on those 2 statements.
Same here. Id rather have a cap set from day 1 and have crafting skills come close to the cap but never hit it. Throw in some item decay and the pvp focus can be more on player skills than gear.
II) Instanced BGs - You know why this is funny? Because what people are really doing when they mention instanced bg's is finding a way to complain about WoW. You know that all the battle grounds in DAoC were instanced right? Thid.. molv etc.. Yet people talk about how great they were... (myself included).
Just wanted to clear something up that you're a little mistaken about. BGs in daoc were not instanced, they were zones. An instance will have multiple copies of that zone created when it reaches a certain qualifier such as number of people, ie 10 vs 10, 20 vs 20, 40 people in a raid etc.
The BGs in daoc are zones, like what everquest used. A loading screen, a pause to transport you to another enclosed area, but no limit on the amount of people that can enter. No duplicate zone because there are too many. They did limit the BGs to level ranges, but that was for more competitive gameplay and action. The frontiers of course had no limit.
I would have loved if WoW had BGs like daoc, with no limit on the amount of people, but maybe just by level range. It would have been like open world pvp, concentrated in popular spots. I remember having massive battles near ubrs. It had that chaotic feeling I got in daoc with crazy numbers. That all stopped once they put in the BGs mostly.
Yup.. and don't forget that they are persistent. Meaning there is no timer. There were also no "Sporting Event" rules so the "game" doesn't end when one team gets X number of "points". No queuing.
It's a war.
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People want skill to be what matters. Skill and only skill but when you have two different things, one will always be just a little bit better, one will always be at least a little bit easier. The problem increases exponentially in games where people want 10, 20, 32 different things.
People want to play what they think is fun and do not want the things other people think are fun to be more powerful, even if it is just a counterclass scenarior (Prior to a nerf, Warriors in WoW were a great counter to mages. One single nerf turned the situation around and gave mages no true counterclass).
When I played FFXI, I used the game's cheap pvp to duel some friends and we had so much fun. I thought I wanted a game with real pvp.
Now that I've played a few games with real PVP I've come to appreciate games that don't care about PVP. PVP is "not fair" and leads to nerf after buff after nerf affecting pvp battles and pve encounters.
"Ohmigod, tanks are hard to kill, and that's not fair."
The reason pvp is so hard to bring into an MMO isnt really the developers or the coders its the people playing the game who thinks there is such a thing as balanced pvp or for that matter balanced pve. If every class was equal then there would not be a need for different classes. If everything was fair then no one would be better or worse then another person. Fact is there is never going to be a perfect MMO since there isnt a perfect set of developers alive that can make one.
Now here is where it is the developers fault they havent learned one thing that every one has been told in the past. "NO" rather telling the game population no we arent going to change this or that or "NO" we arent going to bring this into or take that away from this class. the developers bow down to preasure from the business side of the game company whos job it is to watch the $$$ comming in and when a game company thinks a certin issue will cause membership drop which means lost revenue the developers are pressured into making the changes. There are a few games out right now that if the developers would have just simply told the community "NO" that said community would have not liked it but would have came up with solutions to counter what they didn't like. Just because a person or a group wants something doesnt mean long term its the best solution for them.
With reguards to the "gear gap" simply put you get out of something what you put into something, you should not think or expect to be on equal footing with someone who has 40 hours to invest into something vs someone who only has 15 hours to invtest in something. That simply put isnt fair.
Battlegrounds was a way for an MMO to still allow pvp but on the players terms which I guess has its place but I think if your in a MMO and its about danger and adventure and the like then pvp should be just as random as the mobs spawn rate. I understand that at times people just want to logg on exp do a quest and logg off but if your looking for a true game experience then you have to take the good with the bad with the ugly and sometimes. an MMO just like life should not and can not go the way you expect it all the time.
prime example : pvp servers on EQ allowed for FFA pvp but people found work arounds and still progressed matter of fact Rallos Zek was the only sever in EQ who killed the sleeper and that was a pvp server. where groups attacked at random on the pvp servers yes, where people greifed from time to time on all the servers yeppers, did people on the servers manage to find work arounds and progress just as people on pve servers did YES.
prime example: game getting FUBAR cause the developers didn't say 'NO' to the community. EVERQUEST tons of imbalances, really only end game content (been that way for years) and the instance zones and mercs killed groups and raids and progression now you can have a lvl 90 with 1000aa in a matter of 45 days any class.
Comments
I would agree that many people can't stomach losses. If you PvP me and lose...it must be because I cheated. It must be because of lag. It must be because I exploited something. Non PvPer's don't handle loss. If you are playing a single player game and die, you respawn at the checkpoint.
If you die in a MMORPG, with full loot ...you lose all your stuff. Now, not only have you lost(ego deflating) you have lost an ingame monetary amount of goods(financial loss). Combine this with someone who is new to it...and you have the makings of a ragequit or a "please fix your stupid game" post.
It is amazing that people actually think that whenever they engage another human being in a game...*shudder* they might LOSE. Can you imagine? Maybe the answer is making all the single player games really, really hard. Get rid of all the checkpoints. If you die, you start completely over.
Remove all exceptional gear, so if you lose...so what. Would you play a game like this? Oh that's right, it's call a first person shooter. Learning the ins and outs of each game's mechanics that involve PvP would seem like common sense. I guess it isn't so common after all.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Well considering I gave up on MMORPG PVP back in 2007 or so, the decision of whether I "like it" has already been made. :P
As a nitpick "twitch" gameplay actually has nothing to do with it. I still like Chess and Magic: the Gathering, and these are strong PVP games but they involve no twitch whatsoever.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Um, the differences between Chess and MMO PVP are more:
You don't play Chess against someone who has 10 Queens because they were grinding tradeskills before you sat down to play.
You don't play Chess against some guy whose King has Divine Plate armor which forces you to checkmate twice in a row to win.
You don't play Chess against someone whose three friends join the match mid-game with their own pieces.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And that very deterministic, predictable nature is why I am utterly uninterested in Chess.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I love strategy, I love having better positioning than my opponent, and using my skills at the right time to counter my enemies choice in abilities, I'm not saying my "twitch skill" should come in to play, I'm saying that in alot of situations, when I completely outplay my opponents in PVP by countering all their decisions, and they can still beat me because of their gear, there's an issue.
Say you have 2 stuns, one is 2 seconds, one is 3. I wait out the 2 and use my escape on the 3 immediately and put you in to my own stun. However your gear is better than mine, so I can't put out enough damage against you even though I've outplayed you, and you are able to take huge shots at my life with your most basic abilities. So I set myself up and predicted your stun, countered it, now I start my own combo, a long chain of my moves that I am constantly thinking about your next 3 moves, however my damage only gets you to 50-75% while your poor choices have killed me through gear.
I'm the guy who plans his fight before it even happens, but has the twitch skills to adapt to things that don't go as planned. I see an enemy capable of big damage but has powerful healing too. I will save any kind of interrupt for that heal, as well as any escape ability to get out of a stun so they can't stun/heal. I will always have something in mind incase someone else tries to attack me (CC), I will run from something I know I will lose.
I've won 5v1s in games by outplaying my enemies, and it feels amazing, it's really something that feels like you made a huge accomplishment when you can outplay 5 enemies at once, using strategy and skill alike, when you have equal or worse gear.
I'm not saying Gear shouldn't play a factor, I'm saying gear shouldn't be a major DECIDING factor. I hate grinding as you do, it's boring and not fun.
Daoc 3 faction pvp was awesome, it is clearly the way to go.
Gear based games suck for anyone who played anything different.
In an mmo, the players should be crafting your gear, you shouldnt be grinding dungeons for it.
There was a time in daoc when you got to 50, had a suit made and had someone spellcraft it, and you were ready to go, except maybe for some jewelry, that you could either quest for, or buy.
Bind on pickup is the true enemy of all mmo players, whether you realize it or not. I cant trade this sword i picked up, why?
If you enjoy gear grinding bs, then why dont you come over here to my house, ill dangle a carrot in front of you, and you can do menial tasks around the house, in hopes that maybe you will get the carrot, but you wont.
Other than that, yeah it seems like people are afraid to die for some reason. Ive seen it many times, and i dont get it. Especially when you have nothing to lose. Why else would people prefer pve over pvp? Pve is safe and easy, its always predictable.
The problem is, the person with better gear is not showing they are better at playing the game, they are generally only showing that they have more time to play the game (HUGE difference).
When dealing with PVP, player SKILL should be the deciding factor. Just because your enemy has spent more time grinding PVE encounters shouldn't result in them having a huge advantage in PVP - at least in my eyes.
That's what I miss about old school MMO's. Player skill was the (primary) deciding factor, not class, gear or level. Sure, gear & progression helped, but if you were a terrible player a set of purples wasn't going to auto-win fights for you like it does these days.
Player skill and strategies meant tight nit groups could defeat zergs, these days it's usually just a battle of numbers, levels, or gear. And it's beyond lame.
Gear Progression MMOs + PvP = Fail
Gear Cap MMOs + PvP = Win
This is my take on those 2 statements.
Rock says: paper is overpowered, but scissors is fine.
Fps and rts are all about pvp and they have zero problem with it, even balance is not a very common theme of discussion.
The problem with mmorpg is the fact they are about character progression to simulate the gain of experience in old pen& paper rpg. This is more or less The main factor in mmorpg. A lot of people seam to think that RPG mean xp bar, but they are so very wrong, a lot of rpg don't even have xp and you can definitly role play very well in them, but thats an other issue. Mmo with heavier character progression are clearly harder to balance pvp wise; because pvp is about player skill, not character skills.
So since pvp mmo should be a mix of character and player skill, here come balance problem since those are antinomic right.
Thats why the new trend of pvp mmo lean to resolve this problem in bringing some fps aspect to the pvp mmo, it is a developer and pvper choice. People that want a win button should stick to pve game with their uber character skills imo.
On top of that people like different style of pvp, some like pking, faction, guild wars, competitve pvp... so you have to please everyone here, and not hurt the rest of the crew, since some will love some aspect and hate others. I will even go and say that some definitly like to have win button in pvp, they will prefer grinding their ass and boting for few years, and access their win button in pvp rather than grow some player skill and fight in a even field. So respect, if they like this and claim to like this without any sort of complexe and lies about it, then be it. So i take out my above comment about carebear pvper
The more choice and facettes a mmo have the better it will be oviously since massive is the first word in mmorpg.
Also the itemisation is the chery on the cake. In fps/rts itemisation have pretty much zero influence. In mmo its a huge factor, how much of a factor it should have in pvp/pve. I don't know one mmo that have the same damage formula for pve and pvp, that says it all.
And finaly in mmo since the player get psychologicaly attached to their toon, and even the hardcore pvper can claim all over its just a game blabla and others are just pussies, they are the first that get pissed and rage and trash talk. The drama factor is huge in mmorpg, and that's why some will prefer it over fps that are mostly emotionless in fact. I personally don't like drama that much, i prefer a clean fight, and i can't stand trash talking for hours L2 style.
So now balance all those factors!!!
I honestly think and thats the new trend, i think you better split the pve/pvp aspects as much as you can and just keep some links between them. I think Aion was very good and definitly was a lot better pvp wise than most people claimed because of that. They really tryed to play on those aspects on a level no other pvp game played up until now. We will see how it goes in the next gen.
It is hardly a new trend, Guild Wars is pretty old by my standards.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Just wanted to clear something up that you're a little mistaken about. BGs in daoc were not instanced, they were zones. An instance will have multiple copies of that zone created when it reaches a certain qualifier such as number of people, ie 10 vs 10, 20 vs 20, 40 people in a raid etc.
The BGs in daoc are zones, like what everquest used. A loading screen, a pause to transport you to another enclosed area, but no limit on the amount of people that can enter. No duplicate zone because there are too many. They did limit the BGs to level ranges, but that was for more competitive gameplay and action. The frontiers of course had no limit.
I would have loved if WoW had BGs like daoc, with no limit on the amount of people, but maybe just by level range. It would have been like open world pvp, concentrated in popular spots. I remember having massive battles near ubrs. It had that chaotic feeling I got in daoc with crazy numbers. That all stopped once they put in the BGs mostly.
Same here. Id rather have a cap set from day 1 and have crafting skills come close to the cap but never hit it. Throw in some item decay and the pvp focus can be more on player skills than gear.
Yup.. and don't forget that they are persistent. Meaning there is no timer. There were also no "Sporting Event" rules so the "game" doesn't end when one team gets X number of "points". No queuing.
It's a war.
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The reason pvp is so hard to bring into an MMO isnt really the developers or the coders its the people playing the game who thinks there is such a thing as balanced pvp or for that matter balanced pve. If every class was equal then there would not be a need for different classes. If everything was fair then no one would be better or worse then another person. Fact is there is never going to be a perfect MMO since there isnt a perfect set of developers alive that can make one.
Now here is where it is the developers fault they havent learned one thing that every one has been told in the past. "NO" rather telling the game population no we arent going to change this or that or "NO" we arent going to bring this into or take that away from this class. the developers bow down to preasure from the business side of the game company whos job it is to watch the $$$ comming in and when a game company thinks a certin issue will cause membership drop which means lost revenue the developers are pressured into making the changes. There are a few games out right now that if the developers would have just simply told the community "NO" that said community would have not liked it but would have came up with solutions to counter what they didn't like. Just because a person or a group wants something doesnt mean long term its the best solution for them.
With reguards to the "gear gap" simply put you get out of something what you put into something, you should not think or expect to be on equal footing with someone who has 40 hours to invest into something vs someone who only has 15 hours to invtest in something. That simply put isnt fair.
Battlegrounds was a way for an MMO to still allow pvp but on the players terms which I guess has its place but I think if your in a MMO and its about danger and adventure and the like then pvp should be just as random as the mobs spawn rate. I understand that at times people just want to logg on exp do a quest and logg off but if your looking for a true game experience then you have to take the good with the bad with the ugly and sometimes. an MMO just like life should not and can not go the way you expect it all the time.
prime example : pvp servers on EQ allowed for FFA pvp but people found work arounds and still progressed matter of fact Rallos Zek was the only sever in EQ who killed the sleeper and that was a pvp server. where groups attacked at random on the pvp servers yes, where people greifed from time to time on all the servers yeppers, did people on the servers manage to find work arounds and progress just as people on pve servers did YES.
prime example: game getting FUBAR cause the developers didn't say 'NO' to the community. EVERQUEST tons of imbalances, really only end game content (been that way for years) and the instance zones and mercs killed groups and raids and progression now you can have a lvl 90 with 1000aa in a matter of 45 days any class.