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Staying The Course
Before I go into the main point of this post, I just want to say that I haven't even played Rift. I am currently a subscriber to World of Warcraft. I've played pretty much every MMO that has been released since Ultima Online. Today I signed up for the Rift trial to see what it was like. Like many of you, before playing a new game I research things a bit. It seems there are some people who are already bored with Rift and are ready to move on, even though the product is months old.
Below are some thoughts, meant only to get you thinking about it, but not to make your mind up for you. They are only my thoughts and opinions and I ask that you read them with an open mind.
Disappointment and Decision
Like many of you, I suffer from disappointment when I try a new game with the hope that I can finally find something different than WoW and the game turns out to be more of the same. These days, the corporate suits run the show and they go with what they feel is safe. Creativity and thinking out of the box is frowned upon as they count the beans in their offices and then wonder why their beans are slowly diminishing. You could say the same thing about movies - how many sequels or remakes of old movies do we need? Where are the original ideas? Answer: thrown into file 13 (the trash) because it wasn't a sure-fire proven revenue maker. I suffer from this like many of you. I've gone from WoW to Age of Conan, to Warhammer and back to WoW. Along the way I have learned a few things, and chief amoung them is being a little gun-shy when spending my money on a new game.
One problem that I see quite often is people's high expectations on a new game. The key word here is new. I never understand those who plow through a new game at the start and then become disechanted when they release the final areas of the game and it isn't enough for them. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with them doing that, only that I feel their expectations are too high. Using WoW as an example, the game has been out for years, not months. Let's be real with ourselves here and understand that no game is going to come out and be the WoW-killer in the end game when it is released. It just isn't possible, It takes time, and yes, money investment for these companies to continue developing content and ideas. So before you cancel your subscription you should really think about your decision. If you like the game and think it has a chance to be something more, it needs your support. It needs your patience. It needs your positive and negative feedback. Finally, and most of all, it needs your money, This is the time you make a decision. How long should I stay on board to support this product? Do I like it enough to keep my subscription open and see it through? My firm belief is that if all you can do is complain and cancel your subscription you will never find a game that meets your expectations.
It is very sad to see a game become a ghost town. Especially before its time. I see Vanguard as a prime example. A game released too early with a lot of hype and falling far short of expectations. Over time they have made it into one of the greatest PVE games ever made, but it is a virtual ghost town and because of this the new owners are quietly putting it to rest (even though they may claim otherwise).
So bottom line: If you quit too soon you are dooming a game from ever succeeding. Its your call, but you do have the power here and if you really think it has a chance to be good, give it some time to improve and help it grow by supporting it with your wallet. If all we do is move on to the next big hype, we are all bound to have our expectations fail us again. What is the next one? Guild Wars 2 right? They say it does this and that... But what happens for real? Many companies have touted the next big thing only to fall short at release? Or is it that we are just setting our expectations too high?
The Sharket, I Mean Market
This MMO market can be compared to throwing a man overboard into shark-infested waters. The competition is fierce and the Great White (WoW) is always waiting to swallow the next man whole. My worry is that eventually companies trying to make something in this market will stop trying because there is no chance. We fickle gamers want near-instant gratification and aren't willing to stay around for the long haul for the developers to mould their game into a product that can compete with the big one which has been out for years. Investors are going to get very tight with their money because there is only so many times you can pitch a new MMO and see it fail. Eventually, it will end up like PC games vs Console games. All these developers are moving to console gaming and we PC folks are stuck with crappy versions of their games that were designed for consoles. Some type of games aren't even made any more. All I can see is thank you so much European developers, for continuing to make good PC games, or we would all be stuck with these converted console games for our PC. The problem here is that we have all the power in these waters. We vote with our wallet. The only way to make sure a game has a chance to grow is to support it - even if it isn't quite what you want it to be at release. It will take time to grow into something more. If you aren't willing to do that, then you really have no right to complain about the game. If you think it should be the perfect immersive world with the better end game than the games out for years, well you are fooling yourselves my friends. That just isn't going to happen.
Conclusion
So we finally reach the end of this epic time-wasting post. I'm hoping some of you get what I'm trying to say. I know some of you will ignore this. I just hope those of you that moved on from your other game, whatever it was, to play Rift, and think it has some great features but isn't quite up to par, read this and have second thoughts about just moving on. The game might not be able to withstand your departure. Worse, doing this over and over is hurting the MMO market and just making it easier for WoW to dominate. Stay the course if you liked it at the start, give it some time to grow and you might be pleasantly surprised. I'm not writing this post for Rift, I've never even played it. I'm writing this for you.
Regards,
ColdSun
ColdSun
Comments
That's sort of the problem, after playing Rift for about 6 weeks its pretty obvious what course Trion ison and I'm pretty sure its not a road I want to travel (again).
Perhaps if a decently polished MMO with some alternate game mechanics were to be released more people would stick around, but as it stands the past 5 years have been littered with wannabies and outright garbage.
VG is a great example, they screwed the launch and that ultimately killed it. SOE never had any intention of keeping it going, they only bought it to try and get their investment back out of it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
lol im sticking with it.. Even if these next few weeks i'll only be able to log in a few hours a day because of work.. I'm finding Rift a nice casual game to play, the complete oppisite of the game i was playing before it (EvE Online) which took me close to a 30mins-1hr to do one mission and 5-8hr's on pvp ops.. Rift is nice i can log in for a good 1-2hr play session and do multiple things within that time frame.. If trion keeps pumping out content, patches, and updates like they have then i think my $15 a month has been well spent.
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
But the mmo makers are the ones actually making the correct decisions from a purely business viewpoint. While the theme park mmo's built along WoW-like lines haven't been blockbusters they've almost all done better than any of the sandbox mmo's released in the same time period. They want to make money, not make a great product that appeals to a limited market.
Your premise (and those of many vocal mmo forum warriors) is essentially "build it and they will come". While in my heart I agree with you I have to say that in reality this just isn't the case. I would come and so would the loudest people on the forums but the masses will not follow and that is where the money lies.
Its incredible but there are people in Rift that complain it is too hard lol. A specific example is that some of the bosses have a random high damage ability that functions similiarly to the old death touch boss mechanics from EQ. My gaming friends both agree that this is the worst thing in the world and that the raid/event bosses should all function like they do in WoW where there is some sort of mechanic to mitigate a power like that .. ie, the boss shouts a warning and everyone runs to a certain "magic stone" or something to shelter from the ability. I pointed out that that most of the bosses in Rift do function like that and only a few have the random "death touch" like ability. I asked that isn't it okay for the game to have both? The answer was no, there should be no randomness at all and every boss should function exactly like those in WoW.
What can you do about people's opinions? These are 2 long time gamers, we all played EQ1 together and one of them I even played text-based MUD's with back in the '90's. If these guy's want that then what does the general younger gaming population want? WoW is the answer and mmo developers know it.
Its the same for our general entertainment such as television, news, movies, etc. How much of any of it is quality and how much of it is based around the new "reality" genre which is both cheap AND the masses love it. That's the very definition of profit making.
Look, I'm on your side but there's really nothing to be done about it. The only hope is that some company is stupid enough to lose a bunch of money making a quality sandbox mmo one day. I won't hold my breath though.
p.s. I really enjoy Rift and other theme park games like it. I also like EQ/Darkfall and other sandbox type games. I just wish the market had room for both but the consumers just don't .. which is sad.
There never will be a ground breaking game. It will always be a different skin on top of the same idea;
Quest, get max level, get epic items, pvp.
The one game that has come out recently, Mortal Online, is the only one that is pushing the box - But people are too scared to even try it as it's different. IMO this mentality won't change.
Lol'
Got as far as " although i've never even played it" and there the post lost credibility. Why anyone who has not played a game wishes to come to that games forum on an MMO site and pontificate on wether it is any good or will last makes me wonder.
Rift is what it is... a solid and polished MMORPG. No it does not break the mould, but like the modern car, it is an improved and polished version of what went before. Most critics have burnt themselves out on MMO's. People looking for the holy grail that is not there.
So heres the rub, my take on Rift ( have played since Beta )
Solid polished MMO
Varied and interesting world that is graphically well done (if your kit is up to it) - the world is not huge.
Quests are plentiful and there are some interesting and some not so interesting - as with any MMO
Elements of both PVE and PVP - still one or two balance probs (they are working on it)
A few different approaches i.e. combat... collections... achievements.. Rifts...daily quests... Server events ect,
A very active world, not often mentioned, but the NPC's are very dynamic. They don't just stand around. Battles for you to join in.
Character progression with the soul system is excellent, lots of choices. Choice=good.
A commited dev team who are churning out content, improvements and a few bug fixes at an amazing rate (especially if your an ex Vanguard player)
There are an awful lot of people playing and having fun. Some servers have a better population than others, as with any recent release, until populations settle down.
At the end of the day, the only way to get a decent opinion is to try it. There are plenty of buddy keys and trial weekends.
Better still a few pounds is cheap for a months entertainment ( compared to an hour with some of the rip off music concerts at the min). Have fun, it's just entertainment.
Trion is not getting my money because I am a consumer and I have decided I do not want what they are selling. The argument that you should continue to invest in a product you do not enjoy just to create competition for another game is akin to voting for the Green Party (even though you do not subscribe to their values) or drinking Pepsi instead of Coke (I'm very sorry for all of you brain deficient people who like Pepsi). You don't support an inferior brand just because you want to keep them around in hopes they can do better.
If more game developers stay away from the fantasy MMO genre that's.... great... and I'd prefer it. The fantasy MMO genre is dead as far as creation goes. Fantasy MMO developers have gone from creating things to incorporating things.
Honestly at this point I'd be more satisfied with a full on Farmville MMO.
Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker
to the OP, I was a wower, racked up about 9k hours on my main char and also tried out rift as a trial. What you are going to find is a polished game that emulates successfully many elements of wow and adds a few new things itself that are fun. However, once you hit max level the game will feel lifeless and empty compared to what you are used to, and if you played wow for long time you will realise that its not offering a new experience at all and is still young in terms of content. The problem with waiting for content is that there are big mmorgs heading in at the end of the year (ish) that will offer a lot more.
On the positive I am not trying to put you off Rift , the game gave me a good few weeks solid fun, and a nice way to break the wow addiction. Now i feel refreshed and enjoying Guild wars 1 and LOTR and eagerly anticipating Archarge,GW2 and SWTOR
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Well while I suspect you are just a troublemaker
there are some very excellent points in your post.
First, the point I highlighted holds just as equally true for shoestring budget, badly made indie sandbox games. Supporting these games just because they go against the status quo is not enough. These developers need to either create a quality product, lower their prices, or stay out of the business entirely, we do not need their well meaning but ham handly made products stinking up the genre. In the end they are only hurting the future of this kind of game more than they help. Also giving these inferior game makers money is just as foolish as supporting big name similar games for the sake of putting competition on the one massive game company.
I whole heartly stand with you on your anti-Pepsi agenda. There is no room for diversity of preference in this world, either tow the line with the rest of us, or Pepsi drinkers, GTFO.
I also agree that the fantasy genre has been beaten to death. Enough with the fairytale elf "bleep", give us something else. Something fresh. Like electric Samurai in space.
Anyway to sum up, I agree. The only way we can make it past this rough time for we decerning MMO players is to give up and play nothing. Fight the power. Oops sorry, I meant of course, IGNORE the power.
Bring on the AAA Farmville MMO with all speed!!!
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Honestly, I can't believe some of you people. I think some of you missed the point completely. His message was not specific to Rift, but to any of the games in the MMORPG genre, including Mortal Online.
He's not trolling, he's making very insightful statements about the MMORPG market and the state of new games today. He's absolutely right. New games don't have a chance because gamers expect a game with 3-5 years of content right out of the box.
When games fail or don't live up to projected or expected successes, investors are reluctant to risk capital for investment in new games, especially games that attempt to break the established mold.
Look at DF, MO and Xsyon. Small, independent developers with unique games that may not survive and will never be accepted as mainstream due more to a buggy game or lack of content. They don't have the deep pockets or large resources of large developers, so they are forced to either release and fix/add content or shut down completely due to lack of funding.
Basically, the OP is saying, if you like what the game has and its potential for the future, support it and wait for the polished product to come about. Otherwise, it may not survive and a game that would have interested you and kept you happy for a long time will never come about.
If you don't like the game or what it will offer, don't support it.
Agree with the OP 100%.
Which is why you completely missed the point of the post and went on to babble about Rift. Please, at least read the post before returning with vitriol, and display a certain level of attention. If you want to stir up a flame war about Rift, you won't get any reaction from me. I know next to nothing about it. Rift has nothing to do with my post except the concern I was showing that a game as well reviewed and seemingly high quality as it is has people posting messages that they are ready to abandon ship after only months of play.
I don't mind if you don't agree with my point of view, as several people have pointed out here - they won't pay for a product that isn't what they want. On the other hand, if you are going to disagree at least know why. :P
@Others
I understand why you do not feel the need to support a game you no longer enjoy and are upset with the company that made it. I don't think my example is for folks in your situation. Instead, it is aimed directly at people who have enjoyed Rift enough to continue supporting it. If you believe that some magic new game will come out and turn the market on its side, well history so far is proving that is not going to happen. With the power of 10+ million subscriptions, Blizzard has many tools to help us forget the competion. My only goal is to see competition in the MMO market, perhaps encouraging a revolution in design which just isn't happening right now. The problem is that the business folks who pay for these games to be creating don't see it the same way as many of us do. They see a successful formula, and being the bean counters that they are they go with the safe and sure thing.
I apologize if anyone here believed I was supporting WoW or Deflating Rift. That is not the intention of the post. I really don't care what game becomes popular, as long as we have more PC games made, and more choices.
ColdSun
First off, I wanna say hats off to you Coldsun.
Your post was well written and you clearly voiced your opinion without resorting to bashing or flaming (which is rare on internet forums)
I have to agree with the poster who brough up the fact that the theme park style MMOs are whats in. The attention span of the average person is pretty low and gamers as a whole tend to be a fickle bunch. If it isn't great in the first 5 minutes then its not good at all (its a bit of an exaggeration but I think you get the point). I hate reality TV, I don't watch any of it, I think is mindless, talentless and. it glorifies some of the worst parts of the human condition but thats my opinion. I prefer entertainment that provokes a little thought, which is why when a game isn't easy that I tend to enjoy it a lot more.
You hit a lot of really great points that I've been thinking as well, I just wish that the "masses" we're more like us and that more MMOs would follow the older sandbox concept that were the hallmark of Pre-WoW MMO's, there are some games out there that show promise in my eye but the average guy may only have an hour or two to play and that is one of the things that makes the theme park MMO a much more succesful venture (from a business perspective). Before WoW, playing an MMO was somewhat Taboo, everyone remembered the news story about the guy commiting suicide over an MMO. Then WoW came out and it was everywhere, people who've never been into that started subscribing because it was easy to pick up. I remember coming back from deployment and my wife bought the game with all expansions and was approaching end-game. WoW is the big kid on the block but one day a developer is going to come along with the next "big thing" my hope is that MMO fins a way to appease those of us looking for a challenge but at the same time can appeal to the average and more casual player base that WoW has a strong foot hold on.
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EinsamWulf- Legionnaire of Terminus
With games like EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, and now Rift the market for pointless gear grinders is more than overly saturated. The journey to max level means nothing. Its a pointless waste to get to the "real game". And that game is grinding for gear, so you can grind for better gear. How many games do we need to fit that niche? How many more times are developers going to try to ram that sort of pathetic game play down our throats until they get the clue?
My answer to you goes against everything that I want to be true, but I believe it is true. The answer is: When we stop buying them. Here are my own personal warning signs of how to tell if a game is just another dud:
The game has only a 1-2 week open beta.
The game only has a 1-2 month closed beta that we know about.
The game hides behind an NDA until 2 weeks before release.
None of the people I have played games with for many years (and I'm sure most of us know a lot of people that fit this category) know anything about the game.
The developers promise this game will be different, yet beta testers say it is more of the same
The development cycle for the game is less than 2 years.
I don't play if people are already complaining about ghost-town servers
IF some of the above are true, I do not purchase the game until it has been out for a while and receiving good reviews.
I don't expect a new game to pass all of these requirements, and I don't expect everyone to agree with them. I have decided that I won't spend money and am gun-shy due to past disappointments. I've seen a lot of great comments about Rift, but it does make me a little nervous. I know in the original post I tell folks to give a game some time to grow, but seeing my list of requirements makes it pretty clear that even before I give a game a chance to grow I have to be sure its worth my time to begin with. When I saw the trial for 7 days, I was pretty excited. I doubt this will give me a complete understanding of what to expect during the seven days, but it will give me an idea if I want to invest my money and put some faith in the developers word that they will continue making a quality game. I agree with a post above that it seems like all that is important these days is getting to the end, and not the journey to the end. That makes me sad, as the journey is what role-playing games are all about. If you take that away all you really play is a fantasy version of Team Fortress 2, which can be fun in doses, but gets boring quickly.
I guess I've lost faith in any company making the next big thing, because so far they are all just trying to sell boxes of the same thing. I think out of everything I've seen so far, this Trion company is really trying to be different, but it seems that they have fallen victim to the same curse as the rest (well at least according to some on these forums and others I visit). People like WoW, and tons of people play it. Many folks seem to be happy with Rift because it is not WoW but remains faithful to the concept while bringing some new ideas. Honestly though, I just wish consoles would die a horrible death so they would release quality games for the PC again. That, and I wish WoW had not been so devestatingly popular so other ideas would be welcome.
I've also become realistic in my view of games on release. There is no way in hell a game is going to be chock full of end-game goodness upon release. Even WoW wasnt - for those of you who truly remember. This is why I say, especially because there is no alternative, if you want a game to be successul you have to stick with it. I don't want to be mistaken and folks to think I want them to pay for something that sucks or they should pay for an idea they don't believe will happen. We vote with our wallet one way or another.
ColdSun
at least 2 more times..new star wars mmo and gw2 comeing soon..dont be surprised to see alot of the same
im sure i'll piss some fan boies off..but i really think gw2 will be alot more of the same...but thats imo
The first thing we need to do, and this is one sub-topic of the "Critique our Reviews" official thread, is to get these reviewing sites to be honest with the scores they're assigning. They serve the developer companies and the playerbase and the message they send with high reviews is that this is what the players want.
It's a vicious circle.
Company makes the same themepark we went too last year -> Gets a high review -> Reviews from websites and magazines tell the consumer to buy // Deals like Headstart and CE get the customer to buy now -> After a projected number of box sales, game is deemed a success, anything after is just sugar -> Users come to sites like this or the magaizines looking for the next game to play -> They find one with a high review.....
It's a circle that costs us a lot collectively and pads the pockets of people quite willing to make the same game again and again. Some of Trion's guys (and some more of Blizzard's guys and some of Funcom's and Anet's, etc etc) will be at other companies in three years dropping lines like "We're not in Telara anymore.".
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Giving rift time to grow is rewarding developers that reward casual nom nom players in knee jerk nerfs and patches shortly after release.
Blizzard substantially left WOW alone for a year before messing with it.
That is a lesson we need new mmorpg develpers to remember.
Do not reward those developers that throw nefs and balance around to keep poor quality casuals "happy" just so that they subscribe for an extra month.
Many of us gave RIFT a lot of slack - and our cash - before they threw our loyalty back in our faces and nerfed the content so hard it is pointless. Add to that the truly inept and heavy handed policing that rewards the whiniest of kids and ....people that love the mmorpg genre .. .walk.. again ..
Caveat Emptor
If the developers do not add stuff at an accelerated pace like they do now, they will condemn the game more surely than letting it "mature". There are new contenders coming up for people's attention and I don't think Rift is ready to compete yet. You may have disliked the changes in the dungeon system, but I have no idea if they are implemented due to players disliking the 1.5 healers earlier system or due to the LFG tool limitattons. They are so active (either proactive or reactive) to people's demands that we don't know if the cause was either of the things I mentioned or both.
They certainly don't have the luxury of waiting on their asses with the current content for a year. The clock is ticking and my guess is that they have until SW:TOR comes out (I predict it will launch earlier than GW2). That's six months tops if you believe the Chrismas release, possibly earlier.
^^^
Fine ... however I think if you have a game where you are not making everything easier within a few weeks you have a channce to retain a core of players and you maintain your games integrity.
Nerf everything and there is no value to an achievement.
No point "working" at anything if there is no lasting prestige or reward and that for me is at the core of the MMORPG genre.
In real life .. and mmorpgs are perpetual virtual worlds .... you reward many things but at the core you have consequences for making decisions and basic set of realities that reward quality decision making, balanced evaluation of risk and effort etc .. underpinned by a rate of change that doesnt devalue every decision and its consequence to the point they do not make a difference over time.
If you want to attract players that like fast rewards and dont want to "work" at abnthing or CBA to learn strategy or develop in game friendship and teams to overcome challenging content ... fine ... but don't kid yourself it is an mmorpg you have that bears anything like the real human world upon which the genre is grounded .. it isn't.
Designing and marketing mmorpgs like they are this weeks new version of a popular washing powder is a mistake. Design them so they are more like high prestige brands/products that people desire over decades.
Caveat Emptor