Mmos should go back to random loot drops that can be improved with professions. The story line should be for flavor with many sides stories that can be found through out towns that are either part of the main story lines or not. The rest should be pvp with player made politics. This game rift is doomed to fail based on the do story stuff to get a reward model. Plus grind grind grind. Ifs not funm I really think this genre is dead.
The problem with the old design was that dungeons took too long to complete. In my opinion anything above one hour (including some mishaps) is too long and some of the dungeons were 4-5 hours affairs. So in my opinion they adjusted the dungeons so as:
It's faster to go through them
It takes one healer to do the same content (meaning said healer is not overgeared for it)
They needed a system that worked well with the new LFG tool (which incidentally still have glitches understanding specs, and progression requirements)
I believe that due to a combination of the above factors the dungeons as we knew them were changed. I have not played them myself after the changes to give a personal opinion of feeling of difficulty though (too much PvPing, almost 1.1M favor now and working on getting the final full PvP set). Incidentally, favor is also a lot easier to get after patch and I don't mind, even though I've almost reached all my goals with the old system. A healthy competition and some decent fights is what I'm looking for and I won't find them with undergeared people in PvP.
The problem, as usual, is how to deal with a fundamental lack of content.
Dungeons in general would be much more fun with less trash, more dynamic encounters, a few decent environmental traps, actual use of the environment, some fun bosses with randomised attacks etc etc all done in reasonable periods of playtime.
But this persistent world model needs to tie people up for hours on end, and cannot create actual content to do that, so instead creates waves of trash. This is boring. When this trash has more HP, it takes forever and is boring. When it has lees HP, it takes less time, and is even more boring.
The game is what it is... there is not much they can do about it.
the problem with MMOs is this belief that the game starts at end game.
This is insanity! The game is the levelling exploration game. Once you start grinding repeated content, the game is over. Now you are just killing time.
Soon we wil all have 5 henchman and 20 minute raids becuase some group of peeps convinced game designers that they have a life and need it to be easy street. Look at cataclysm as an example of our gaming future. Look at what we know about TOR so far.
It easy street my friends and gaming that matters is going the way of the free epics crowd.
Now I dont understand how they think they are going to form a decent community by making the game content easy / rewards largely worthless, over policing the game and appealing to the lowest common denominator = Little Billy the cry baby casual.. whilst the subs drop away and a large % of the servers become even lower population .
For me, this article and some of the podcasts, news press releases etc point ot 1 thing .... confusion and a lack of direction from the top. A lack of professional PR, a lack of professional support etc etc ...
No one knows what Trion are upto and that is becasue their staff don't. Expect more hurried tweeks and content reminiscent of Warhammer online...
"Our team consists of some of the top creative talent from the games, media, and Internet industries. Our team members have worked on, developed, and shipped more than 100 original titles, including best selling online games and franchises like Aion, Warhammer Online, Lord of the Rings Online, World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies, Lineage, EverQuest,and Pogo. Utilizing our proprietary core technologies, we're hard at work on our first titles to be released in North America, Europe, and Asia." From one of their recruitment adverts... Must do better ..
Soon we wil all have 5 henchman and 20 minute raids becuase some group of peeps convinced game designers that they have a life and need it to be easy street. Look at cataclysm as an example of our gaming future. Look at what we know about TOR so far.
It easy street my friends and gaming that matters is going the way of the free epics crowd.
Now I dont understand how they think they are going to form a decent community by making the game content easy / rewards largely worthless, over policing the game and appealing to the lowest common denominator = Little Billy the cry baby casual.. whilst the subs drop away and a large % of the servers become even lower population .
For me, this article and some of the podcasts, news press releases etc point ot 1 thing .... confusion and a lack of direction from the top. A lack of professional PR, a lack of professional support etc etc ...
No one knows what Trion are upto and that is becasue their staff don't. Expect more hurried tweeks and content reminiscent of Warhammer online...
"Our team consists of some of the top creative talent from the games, media, and Internet industries. Our team members have worked on, developed, and shipped more than 100 original titles, including best selling online games and franchises like Aion, Warhammer Online, Lord of the Rings Online, World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies, Lineage, EverQuest,and Pogo. Utilizing our proprietary core technologies, we're hard at work on our first titles to be released in North America, Europe, and Asia." From one of their recruitment adverts... Must do better ..
I don't know Trion seems pretty organized to me.. They've already put out several events, 2 new raids only 3 months after launch, a lot of new tweaks and updates (like LFG, Wardrope, ect.) All the while they are holding free trial weekends and such which is getting a lot of new players into Rift.. We actually got 3 new members in our guild just today who jus upgraded from their trial accounts to the real thing.. All this takes a HUGE ammount of organization, it's not like Trion is running around like a chicken with it's head missing.. There's some logic to what they are doing and if you check out their frequent update's you'll see what kind of direction the game is moving towards..
I myself am against lowering difficulties on dungeons but since i'm still 4 lvls off from 50 and havn't done any T1's i can't say weather it was needed or not.. I just think so far Trion is doing a great job and showing plenty of direction to where Rift is headed.. Then again, maybe i'am not expecting much as i remember NC Soft TRULEY didn't know what they were doing with AION, the game went 7 months without updates or any content being added.. The posts from the dev's were nothing but promises without a date.. Not a single event was held, even when holidays passed by.. Then the servers ACTUALLY all went empty, i say actually as Rift's servers are still mostly med-high on peak hours when AION's maybe had a few hundred people at peak hours 3-4 months after it launched.
Currently Playing: Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
I blame Zynga and the Farmville "you will never die just repeat and repeat with no risk" mentality that has spread through the world like a zombie plague, Now it's in the MMO's too. Doom. Dooooooom.
WSIMikes post was interesting but not really groundbreaking.
Wasn't intended to be "ground-breaking", nor does it have to be. I was just voicing my views on the topic.
He doesn't really explain his own gaming style.
Actually... I do. I've said, I take my time in MMOs. I don't race through them but enjoy all the content from level 1 up to cap. I try to do content for the sake of doing and, ideally, enjoying it... not because of what rewards are given.
Seems you didn't really read my post closely enough.
He does admit to playing all theese games though and that says a lot.
... says a lot about what?
Could you be more vague next time, perhaps?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Lets face it, the instant gratification crowd is here to stay and Trion knows it, hence the childish dungeon runs.
Oh you're so right, how I yearn for the days in EQ when I could sit by Lake of Ill Omen and have time to go make a coffee while my mana came back, or spend 40 minutes doing a corpse run only to be killed again when i ressed....
I've completed every expert dungeon almost 10 times each in RIFT, havent raided yet and don't plan to.
I must admit though rift is very easy, it is really dumbed down, and i hate easy MMO's.
I hope SWTOR is a lot harder and more unforgiving than RIFT, or everyone will just breeze through it like RIFT.
I'm guessing SWTOR is going to be pretty easy though to cater to everyone
Swtor is not easy at all. Watch a few of press videos of when they let them play for 2 days they talked about how they wipe 3-4 time on the first boss in the game at lvl 10 which is the end of your first story arc. Also they were dieing on some of the elite mobs that were part of the grp quests and this is all before lvl 10. So as of right ow swtor seems to have the right balance of difficulty wether or not that changes i cant read minds.
Lets face it, the instant gratification crowd is here to stay and Trion knows it, hence the childish dungeon runs.
Oh you're so right, how I yearn for the days in EQ when I could sit by Lake of Ill Omen and have time to go make a coffee while my mana came back, or spend 40 minutes doing a corpse run only to be killed again when i ressed....
I blame Zynga and the Farmville "you will never die just repeat and repeat with no risk" mentality that has spread through the world like a zombie plague, Now it's in the MMO's too. Doom. Dooooooom.
Yep, although I blame the players, not the dev teams.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I've been hopping back and forth over the fence on this question. I do like the dungeons not taking 3-4 hours at a time to finish. The trash monsters were so obvious in their role of time-sink that it was just annoying.
But I also liked the challenge of the named monsters. Sure, some were just Light Up and Loot, but others would slap you around if you let them. The couple of times I had to be a Cholormancer healer was too much pressure! (/tweek, /tweek)
It wouldn't have worked with the random LFG groups, though, so I see why they toned them down. A little too much Rat in Maze getting Food Pellets to feel comfortable about the long-term success of the design, but it's been okay for the occasional game session.
I have avoided playing the healer role, though, because it would be especially embarrassing to foul up in the easier dungeons. More pressure, ironically! It's just easier to generate the mass of Big Yellow Numbers rather than green ones.
While i personally enjoyed the dungeons way more prior to 1.2, i also understand the time commitment that was required to complete them drove many away.
Dungeons are there to level up in and get people to play together and understand party dynamics. The challenge comes in the raiding content, which is still there for the majority of the players. Hell, some servers still have not cleared Greenscale.
I've completed every expert dungeon almost 10 times each in RIFT, havent raided yet and don't plan to.
I must admit though rift is very easy, it is really dumbed down, and i hate easy MMO's.
Statements like this always puzzle me. I'm guessing beating every expert dungeon 10 times each took quite a bit of time. I also assume after the first or second time you ran through a dungeon, you realized it was too easy for you.
So here is what we know: 1. You hate easy MMO's. 2. Rift is an easy MMO (for you at least). 3. You continued to play even after you realized numbers one and two.
Why keep playing if you hate the game?
its stupid to ask a person this, as there's many reasons why they might.
they could have irl friends that play it and if they didnt play it with them they'd be excluded from them.
their spouse might like/love it and you sometimes have to do things your spouse wants to do even if you dont like it.
or there could be nothing better out on the market right now so they're toughing it out until the next best thing(tho most just went back to WoW)
Well, that's why I'm asking the question. I would like to know why anyone (in this case, Pitt_Hammer) would spend an excessive amount of time playing a game that they hate.
To respond to your examples, I would argue that it's stupid to do something you "hate" because others are doing it or because you can't find something better to do with your time.
My wife loves the Lifetime channel and reality TV shows. I can't stand them so she gets to do those things by herself or with her friends. Many of my friends are heavily into college basketball. I don't pretend to enjoy it just to fit in with them. I love video games and fishing. Some of my friends do those things and some don't.
And, the statement that there is "nothing better out on the market right now" implies that he would not "hate" the game but actually think that it's pretty great. ie. He feels that it is better than all other games (or MMO's at least) currently available for purchase.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, forgot i even posted this.
The above post by Sephiroso nailed it.
Yeah i have freinds that i've played most MMO's with and we all tried RIFT. we do the same dungeons every night, because that's where the games progression leads.. gathering plaques to gear up, but there's no endgame after tier 2 dungeons besides raiding.
Plus were big fans of MMO's and IMO there is nothing out atm worth playing, until SWTOR that is.
Anyway as a side note, we all joined a raiding guild anyway, because that is really the only other path to progress and experience new content for the time being.
I believe there is an easy solution for this, allow players to choose a diffculty level for expert dungeons, hell, even for normal dungeons. This would make everyone happy (if they do this they have to include a crazy hardcore level that is almost impossible to beat, take a hint form DDO on this one Trion).
Casual gamers are the reason for the easy mode in mmo's now.'I only get 2 hours to play but i want what he has!' 'Dungeons should take no more than 1 hour!' Unfortunatly there are many of these people in mmo's and they also are the ones that whinge and devs listen to. I am hoping with GW2 B2P system the majority of this type player will flock to and leave our true mmo's alone and hopefully they will slowly reveret back to harder mode.
I believe there is an easy solution for this, allow players to choose a diffculty level for expert dungeons, hell, even for normal dungeons. This would make everyone happy (if they do this they have to include a crazy hardcore level that is almost impossible to beat, take a hint form DDO on this one Trion).
There should be no 'difficulty mode' in any dungeon raid or anything in mmo's,if you can't do it tough,get better and try again:)
Soon we wil all have 5 henchman and 20 minute raids becuase some group of peeps convinced game designers that they have a life and need it to be easy street. Look at cataclysm as an example of our gaming future. Look at what we know about TOR so far.
It easy street my friends and gaming that matters is going the way of the free epics crowd.
Lets face it, the instant gratification crowd is here to stay and Trion knows it, hence the childish dungeon runs.
Oh you're so right, how I yearn for the days in EQ when I could sit by Lake of Ill Omen and have time to go make a coffee while my mana came back, or spend 40 minutes doing a corpse run only to be killed again when i ressed....
NOT!
I think he wasn' going to that extreme either, a happy medium that just doesn't seem to be happening. I thought Rift's difficulty was good pre-patch, but cut down on the trash mobs.
I personally loved a lot of Age of Conan for that fact it was just a boss run with little to no fillers in a lot of cases. Useless trash mobs sure, they make sense in some cases, but otherwise I view them as an additional time sink. Unfortunately most people play a game to get geared and enlarge their epeen. I miss the social aspects of games that is unfortunately not coming back as games are catering to a large portion of players since WOW success and everyone wants a larger piece of the pie.
All of this doesn't help that an inexpensive facebook game can make more than a AAA release with a fraction of the cost, so you can see why in an age where the bottom line is really the only thing worth anything that catering to a larger player base is the only thing that matters except to a few some indie developers who unfortunately do not have the resources to compete in a larger scale thus releasing unfinished products that from the looks of it do not compete or last long after release.
If Trion are staffed with experts drawn from many mmorpgs... why would such a team of experts have designed and released the game in such a state that it now requires all these changes to appease the particular type of casual gamer that doesnt remotely help build commmunity or longevity into an mmorpg?
They should know months in advance what niche their product is aimed at and stick to it.
For Trion to be knee jerk implementing content and nerfs on the scale they are, plus the lack of insight into server population issues, you'd think they had recruited a team of cretins.
This announced "solution" to server population and in particular transfer every 7 days ...from server is hardly goign to help build community is it ?
Players reporting a few more members in their guilds after this free trial etc are hardly stemming the tide of those leaving for various reasons.
Actually I like this feature of moving around every 7 days. Say you're in a low populated or dying server (or any type of server that does not have the necessary people to do what you want, maybe in your server there are no decent raiding guilds or PvP guilds).
You shop around for a new server. You ask a bit in the general channels but you can't be really sure until you move there yourself. Bonus points for the totally free transfer.
You just realised that the server you thought was decent is in fact not. You now have the ability to move to another server and hope for the best that this will become your new home. Again, no money taken for the improvement of your gaming experience.
Can this feature be abused? Perhaps, but I believe that the majority that will use it will be the legitimate users and not the abusers. I also think that it will be buggy at first, since it looks like the whole process will be automated. Still beats the service provided by other games in terms of cost.
if you grab the ammount of players that complain about these generic "dumbed down" stuff in mmos nowadays and compare it to the ones that keeps paying for the game even if the game is being dumb down..., you will notice that devs are just doing what these paying ppl want to see in game which is all easy to play stuff just like WoW did...
it is thanks to those players that are willing to pay for crap (and claim they pay for what gives them fun) that developers are not making 100% enjoyable mmos anymore......
anyways... im still waiting for GW2 hoping it will have a positive impact on mmos
if you grab the ammount of players that complain about these generic "dumbed down" stuff in mmos nowadays and compare it to the ones that keeps paying for the game even if the game is being dumb down..., you will notice that devs are just doing what these paying ppl want to see in game which is all easy to play stuff just like WoW did...
it is thanks to those players that are willing to pay for crap (and claim they pay for what gives them fun) that developers are not making 100% enjoyable mmos anymore......
anyways... im still waiting for GW2 hoping it will have a positive impact on mmos
I really don't know what to say to this, other than that I'm pretty sure you don't get to define "fun" for other people.
Comments
The problem, as usual, is how to deal with a fundamental lack of content.
Dungeons in general would be much more fun with less trash, more dynamic encounters, a few decent environmental traps, actual use of the environment, some fun bosses with randomised attacks etc etc all done in reasonable periods of playtime.
But this persistent world model needs to tie people up for hours on end, and cannot create actual content to do that, so instead creates waves of trash. This is boring. When this trash has more HP, it takes forever and is boring. When it has lees HP, it takes less time, and is even more boring.
The game is what it is... there is not much they can do about it.
the problem with MMOs is this belief that the game starts at end game.
This is insanity! The game is the levelling exploration game. Once you start grinding repeated content, the game is over. Now you are just killing time.
Yep.
Blaming the players isn't the whole story either.
This article suggests TRION want community and recognise the importance and profitability of a dedicated fan base even though it is small. http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/25/trion-says-rift-doesnt-need-10-million-subs-to-be-successful/
Now I dont understand how they think they are going to form a decent community by making the game content easy / rewards largely worthless, over policing the game and appealing to the lowest common denominator = Little Billy the cry baby casual.. whilst the subs drop away and a large % of the servers become even lower population .
For me, this article and some of the podcasts, news press releases etc point ot 1 thing .... confusion and a lack of direction from the top. A lack of professional PR, a lack of professional support etc etc ...
No one knows what Trion are upto and that is becasue their staff don't. Expect more hurried tweeks and content reminiscent of Warhammer online...
"Our team consists of some of the top creative talent from the games, media, and Internet industries. Our team members have worked on, developed, and shipped more than 100 original titles, including best selling online games and franchises like Aion, Warhammer Online, Lord of the Rings Online, World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies, Lineage, EverQuest, and Pogo. Utilizing our proprietary core technologies, we're hard at work on our first titles to be released in North America, Europe, and Asia." From one of their recruitment adverts... Must do better ..
Caveat Emptor
I don't know Trion seems pretty organized to me.. They've already put out several events, 2 new raids only 3 months after launch, a lot of new tweaks and updates (like LFG, Wardrope, ect.) All the while they are holding free trial weekends and such which is getting a lot of new players into Rift.. We actually got 3 new members in our guild just today who jus upgraded from their trial accounts to the real thing.. All this takes a HUGE ammount of organization, it's not like Trion is running around like a chicken with it's head missing.. There's some logic to what they are doing and if you check out their frequent update's you'll see what kind of direction the game is moving towards..
I myself am against lowering difficulties on dungeons but since i'm still 4 lvls off from 50 and havn't done any T1's i can't say weather it was needed or not.. I just think so far Trion is doing a great job and showing plenty of direction to where Rift is headed.. Then again, maybe i'am not expecting much as i remember NC Soft TRULEY didn't know what they were doing with AION, the game went 7 months without updates or any content being added.. The posts from the dev's were nothing but promises without a date.. Not a single event was held, even when holidays passed by.. Then the servers ACTUALLY all went empty, i say actually as Rift's servers are still mostly med-high on peak hours when AION's maybe had a few hundred people at peak hours 3-4 months after it launched.
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
I blame Zynga and the Farmville "you will never die just repeat and repeat with no risk" mentality that has spread through the world like a zombie plague, Now it's in the MMO's too. Doom. Dooooooom.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Lets face it, the instant gratification crowd is here to stay and Trion knows it, hence the childish dungeon runs.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Meanwhile playing warfronts and loving it , such is life on the warfront
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Oh you're so right, how I yearn for the days in EQ when I could sit by Lake of Ill Omen and have time to go make a coffee while my mana came back, or spend 40 minutes doing a corpse run only to be killed again when i ressed....
NOT!
Swtor is not easy at all. Watch a few of press videos of when they let them play for 2 days they talked about how they wipe 3-4 time on the first boss in the game at lvl 10 which is the end of your first story arc. Also they were dieing on some of the elite mobs that were part of the grp quests and this is all before lvl 10. So as of right ow swtor seems to have the right balance of difficulty wether or not that changes i cant read minds.
Case in point
Yep, although I blame the players, not the dev teams.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I've been hopping back and forth over the fence on this question. I do like the dungeons not taking 3-4 hours at a time to finish. The trash monsters were so obvious in their role of time-sink that it was just annoying.
But I also liked the challenge of the named monsters. Sure, some were just Light Up and Loot, but others would slap you around if you let them. The couple of times I had to be a Cholormancer healer was too much pressure! (/tweek, /tweek)
It wouldn't have worked with the random LFG groups, though, so I see why they toned them down. A little too much Rat in Maze getting Food Pellets to feel comfortable about the long-term success of the design, but it's been okay for the occasional game session.
I have avoided playing the healer role, though, because it would be especially embarrassing to foul up in the easier dungeons. More pressure, ironically! It's just easier to generate the mass of Big Yellow Numbers rather than green ones.
Avatars are people too
No matter what a company does there will always be cry babies.
Don't feed the trolls.
While i personally enjoyed the dungeons way more prior to 1.2, i also understand the time commitment that was required to complete them drove many away.
Dungeons are there to level up in and get people to play together and understand party dynamics. The challenge comes in the raiding content, which is still there for the majority of the players. Hell, some servers still have not cleared Greenscale.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, forgot i even posted this.
The above post by Sephiroso nailed it.
Yeah i have freinds that i've played most MMO's with and we all tried RIFT. we do the same dungeons every night, because that's where the games progression leads.. gathering plaques to gear up, but there's no endgame after tier 2 dungeons besides raiding.
Plus were big fans of MMO's and IMO there is nothing out atm worth playing, until SWTOR that is.
Anyway as a side note, we all joined a raiding guild anyway, because that is really the only other path to progress and experience new content for the time being.
my web design: www.advancedws.com.au
I believe there is an easy solution for this, allow players to choose a diffculty level for expert dungeons, hell, even for normal dungeons. This would make everyone happy (if they do this they have to include a crazy hardcore level that is almost impossible to beat, take a hint form DDO on this one Trion).
Casual gamers are the reason for the easy mode in mmo's now.'I only get 2 hours to play but i want what he has!' 'Dungeons should take no more than 1 hour!' Unfortunatly there are many of these people in mmo's and they also are the ones that whinge and devs listen to. I am hoping with GW2 B2P system the majority of this type player will flock to and leave our true mmo's alone and hopefully they will slowly reveret back to harder mode.
There should be no 'difficulty mode' in any dungeon raid or anything in mmo's,if you can't do it tough,get better and try again:)
It's a game, it doesn't matter at all.
I think he wasn' going to that extreme either, a happy medium that just doesn't seem to be happening. I thought Rift's difficulty was good pre-patch, but cut down on the trash mobs.
I personally loved a lot of Age of Conan for that fact it was just a boss run with little to no fillers in a lot of cases. Useless trash mobs sure, they make sense in some cases, but otherwise I view them as an additional time sink. Unfortunately most people play a game to get geared and enlarge their epeen. I miss the social aspects of games that is unfortunately not coming back as games are catering to a large portion of players since WOW success and everyone wants a larger piece of the pie.
All of this doesn't help that an inexpensive facebook game can make more than a AAA release with a fraction of the cost, so you can see why in an age where the bottom line is really the only thing worth anything that catering to a larger player base is the only thing that matters except to a few some indie developers who unfortunately do not have the resources to compete in a larger scale thus releasing unfinished products that from the looks of it do not compete or last long after release.
If Trion are staffed with experts drawn from many mmorpgs... why would such a team of experts have designed and released the game in such a state that it now requires all these changes to appease the particular type of casual gamer that doesnt remotely help build commmunity or longevity into an mmorpg?
They should know months in advance what niche their product is aimed at and stick to it.
For Trion to be knee jerk implementing content and nerfs on the scale they are, plus the lack of insight into server population issues, you'd think they had recruited a team of cretins.
This announced "solution" to server population and in particular transfer every 7 days ...from server is hardly goign to help build community is it ?
Players reporting a few more members in their guilds after this free trial etc are hardly stemming the tide of those leaving for various reasons.
Caveat Emptor
Actually I like this feature of moving around every 7 days. Say you're in a low populated or dying server (or any type of server that does not have the necessary people to do what you want, maybe in your server there are no decent raiding guilds or PvP guilds).
You shop around for a new server. You ask a bit in the general channels but you can't be really sure until you move there yourself. Bonus points for the totally free transfer.
You just realised that the server you thought was decent is in fact not. You now have the ability to move to another server and hope for the best that this will become your new home. Again, no money taken for the improvement of your gaming experience.
Can this feature be abused? Perhaps, but I believe that the majority that will use it will be the legitimate users and not the abusers. I also think that it will be buggy at first, since it looks like the whole process will be automated. Still beats the service provided by other games in terms of cost.
OP
if you grab the ammount of players that complain about these generic "dumbed down" stuff in mmos nowadays and compare it to the ones that keeps paying for the game even if the game is being dumb down..., you will notice that devs are just doing what these paying ppl want to see in game which is all easy to play stuff just like WoW did...
it is thanks to those players that are willing to pay for crap (and claim they pay for what gives them fun) that developers are not making 100% enjoyable mmos anymore......
anyways... im still waiting for GW2 hoping it will have a positive impact on mmos
I really don't know what to say to this, other than that I'm pretty sure you don't get to define "fun" for other people.