I have never yet played a PVE based mmo where you need cc. High damage output is all that you will ever need except for a few bosses etc.
cc is for PVP.
This comment makes me so sad..because it means this is the WoW-generation that never played UO, EQ, DAoC or any of hte other games that came before the cartoony mess of easy.
Games have become very one-dimensional, EQ2 is probably the closest to having a 4th role with support being strongly featured in raids and groups for mana regen and buffing. CC died away in Eq2 after about the first year, kind of like WoW.
I'd say before we revist the need for CC for groups, it needs to be more attractive to the solo player, as that is what the market is for the most part now. Things like Tanks and healers suffer more I believe from the inabillity to solo as effectively as DPS do, making them less attractive to the casual player.
I tanked in EQ1, and off-tanked. I loved it. Tanking in WoW just completely turned me off, and so did healing. There's too much responsibility dumped on the healer or the tank and none on DPS. It made it frustrating playing with morons who'd never heard of deaggro (that's largely Blizzard's fault for dumbing down DPS so that a 4 year old can run a heroic)
Perhaps we should scale back the mass of classes so you don't have so much imbalance, and focus on refining the Trinity idea.
CC serves almost exactly the same purpose as a healer. Instead of healing damage after it is dealt, they prevent damage before it has been dealt. The difference is that you can omit a CC class but you absolutely cannot omit a healing class.
DrWiggly had it right: a "support" category for CC and regen makes sense if repop time is relevant and regen is non-existant. But as long as downtime is not an issue at all, preventing damage is useless next to having an extra tank who soaks the additional damage or an extra healer who heals the additional damage.
The reason its called the Trinity is because you need 3 classes in MMOs 2 of which are a must currently. Tank = control and Healer = heals (obviously) and the 3rd could be any class.. Thats why its called the holy trinity.
If you have a good tank you have no need for a Crowd Control Class.
This is the problem with MMOs. This is why newer MMOs are boring.
Precicely, and a lot blame can be placed as well on lazy design. Giving a tank a hundred AoE taunt abilities makes it very easy to keep everything on one target. That, coupled with rediculous damage mitigation. In the early games monsters did a lot more damage per hit making more than a couple on any one target more than the tank and their healer could keep up with. In addition, back then taunting was a much more involved micro game with a single taunt on a decent timer so it was used only when needed to regain control or to establish initial agro. When you only have one taunt and you get a 4 mob pull you had better have CC or three of them are going to eat your healer and DPS for lunch. Designers have gotten really lazy and with that made lazy players. AoE taunt, cleave, spin, whatever, just sit there and run your hotkey macro while the DPS alpha nukes to their heart's content. Less agro control from tanks will mean more managment, more focus, more interest and involvement from all parties. But, I am sure the button mashers will just run to the forums and cry until it is removed anyway.
I agree with you guys don't get me wrong. But even back in the later stages of EQ most people formed AoE groups, around the Luclin Era. Games these days are way too easy, monsters have so few hps. It makes it so you don't really need CC classes. Also like another person posted in a post you regain mana and health back faster now in games cause most players want shorter down times. Another reason for the CC to vanish as well as most classes get a CC ability, weither its a root, blind, or whatever CC type ability the Enchanter / Bards of the past are gone...... Oh how I miss my EQ bard.
Yeah Luclin, that was about when SOE took over Verant Interactive and started smearing their stupid all over EQ. Now CC also bases its need on the abilities of the MOBs you are figthing. Since most are simply stamped out of the default 'run up and auto-attack' template merely using tanks to be the CC is alright. Now, add enemies that sleep your healer, or meses the tank and turns him on his group? Now what? When the MOBs are CCing you your team had better have a way of dealing with it and simply having more tanks and healers is not going to work because that cuts down on those needed damage roles. One of the key roles to being a good CC player was knowing the enemy better than anyone. Knowing their abilities and when/how to counter them. Part of the CC build was and should always include anti-CC abilities that can help get your allies back in the fight and doing their job.
One of the worst things to be happening to MMOs in recent years is the complete amalgamation of class roles simply because players cried because someone could do something they couldn't. Why wasn't Aragorn casting spells like Gandalf? Why wasn't Elminster a master of dual scimitars like Drizzt D'Urden? Should the Hulk have been as fast as The Flash or Storm as resiliant as Collossus? Let me give you a more modern example. If you were wounded in a battle and had the choice of a sniper or a medic to tend to your wounds, who would you choose? People specialize. It is what makes them good at what they do. There is an old term D&D players used to use to describe bards. 'Jack of all trades, masters of none.' It was what made their ability to do a little of what everyone else did balanced. They weren't very good at it in comparison.
Problem now is that players complain so much that devs give them cross class abilities that are just as important and powerful as those typically held by their classic jobs. Here is a more recent quote some of you may remember. "Everyone can be super. And when everyone is super... no one will be." Take away what makes classes special. What makes them unique and you kill what a lot of players liked about them. I personally loved being the CC player, or the healer. I don't want to DPS, I don't want to tank. Stop giving me abilities to do that because when you do that is one less ability I could have had that would have let me do my job better.
I think what needs to be done is to remove DPS from the trinity and instead give all classes a toggle skill that will allow them to DPS. Then replace that empty spot with crowd control.
Every class can DPS in addition to filling a single trinity role. Make sure your advancement system does not require players to have multiple gear sets ( strength stat increases melee damage while in "frenzy stance" but increases agro while in "defensive stance". Agility increases ranged damage while in "Sniper mode" but increases CC duration while in "Trapper mode". etc. )
In a normal group of 6 you'd need 1 of each role and 3 randoms that can be any class at all. Make sure you can only switch from DPS to your other role while outside of combat to maintain balance and some tactics.
This means every class can solo while in their DPS mode. Every class fills a vital group role while in their other mode. Every class is still dependant on others as per normal trinity.
EDIT: Of course, PvE and PvP would have to be balanced accordingly. Immunity timers or a resolve bar for PvP and enemies as described in the post above me for PvE. And of course guard and PvP taunt for tanks.
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I think what needs to be done is to remove DPS from the trinity and instead give all classes a toggle skill that will allow them to DPS. Then replace that empty spot with crowd control.
Every class can DPS in addition to filling a single trinity role. Make sure your advancement system does not require players to have multiple gear sets ( strength stat increases melee damage while in "frenzy stance" but increases agro while in "defensive stance". Agility increases ranged damage while in "Sniper mode" but increases CC duration while in "Trapper mode". etc. )
In a normal group of 6 you'd need 1 of each role and 3 randoms that can be any class at all. Make sure you can only switch from DPS to your other role while outside of combat to maintain balance and some tactics.
This means every class can solo while in their DPS mode. Every class fills a vital group role while in their other mode. Every class is still dependant on others as per normal trinity.
Me likey. No go get some funding and make a game. Seriously though I think DC tried something like this, and it was a brilliant idea. Just wasted on a crappy game.
as an old school enchanter, i can say that EQ1 has proven quite conclusively that CC doesn't work in a MMO. due to the nature of the ability,(all or nothing) the CCer is either overpowered or completely useless in most cases. IF CC is implimented properly, there is no content that cant be trivilized by a skilled CCer. however, if the content is designed to make CC unreliable, then the CCer is basiclly useless due to the fact that it would be easier to hire another tank for tank mez which is a reliable method of CC.
the power of CC doesnt scale well with expansions. because CC ability scales directly with the difficulty of the mobs in each expansion, while other abilities (tanking/dps/healing/etc...) usually lags behind with each expansion. other abilities lag behind to provide "matured" players a greater challenge as each expansion comes out. instead of facing the 2000 hitting mobs, you are now facing a 4000 hitting mob but the tank can only tank about 20% better. this provides a much greater challenge which force the "matured players" to come up with new tactics and strategy to tackle the situation.
CC on the other hand scales DIRECTLY with the mob. so instead of neutralizing a 2000 hitting mob, the CCer is now neutralizing a 4000 hitting mob or a 100% increase in effectiveness as opposed to the tank who is getting a 20% increase in defensive capabilities. as a result, the CCer became "too powerful" relative to other classes because their ability scales with the much more difficult mobs rather then the relatively modest upgrades of all other classes.
as a result, the enchanter class in EQ1 was rendered useless as their abilities doesnt work on high lvl encounters which you NEED CCing, but it works on mobs that are fairly trivial which doesnt require any CCing at all. eventually the class is simply obsolete due to the nature of their abilities.
i lived through the era's when CCer was 1 of the holy trinity, it was fun, we were GODLY, and our ability overshadowed all other classes, but we knew the nerf bats are going to kill us sooner or later due to our god like ability to trivilize pretty much any encouter the game designer can throw at us:D
as an old school enchanter, i can say that EQ1 has proven quite conclusively that CC doesn't work in a MMO. due to the nature of the ability,(all or nothing) the CCer is either overpowered or completely useless in most cases. IF CC is implimented properly, there is no content that cant be trivilized by a skilled CCer. however, if the content is designed to make CC unreliable, then the CCer is basiclly useless due to the fact that it would be easier to hire another tank for tank mez which is a reliable method of CC.
the power of CC doesnt scale well with expansions. because CC ability scales directly with the difficulty of the mobs in each expansion, while other abilities (tanking/dps/healing/etc...) usually lags behind with each expansion. other abilities lag behind to provide "matured" players a greater challenge as each expansion comes out. instead of facing the 2000 hitting mobs, you are now facing a 4000 hitting mob but the tank can only tank about 20% better. this provides a much greater challenge which force the "matured players" to come up with new tactics and strategy to tackle the situation.
CC on the other hand scales DIRECTLY with the mob. so instead of neutralizing a 2000 hitting mob, the CCer is now neutralizing a 4000 hitting mob or a 100% increase in effectiveness as opposed to the tank who is getting a 20% increase in defensive capabilities. as a result, the CCer became "too powerful" relative to other classes because their ability scales with the much more difficult mobs rather then the relatively modest upgrades of all other classes.
as a result, the enchanter class in EQ1 was rendered useless as their abilities doesnt work on high lvl encounters which you NEED CCing, but it works on mobs that are fairly trivial which doesnt require any CCing at all. eventually the class is simply obsolete due to the nature of their abilities.
i lived through the era's when CCer was 1 of the holy trinity, it was fun, we were GODLY, and our ability overshadowed all other classes, but we knew the nerf bats are going to kill us sooner or later due to our god like ability to trivilize pretty much any encouter the game designer can throw at us:D
I don't think all CC needs to be 1 or 0. Either a complete disable or nothing at all.
What about abilities like DAOs (not an MMO, I know) Hex of Misdirection? Turns all regular hits into misses and all crits into regular hits. That's some pretty powerfull damage control right there. Higher level mobs would presumably have higher crit rates (if a tank's defense decreases their chance to be critted then just use base crit chance for the hit/miss calculation) and thus the spell wouldn't be as powerful, but probably still very useful.
Maybe silences which prevent those heavy hitting mobs from using their "1-shot clothie" abilities but still leave them free to auto-attack.
I think if you were to introduce a CC class you'd need to move away from hard disables ( stuns etc. ) and move on to soft disables ( blinds, silences etc. ). Hard disables either cause the class to be massively OP or have so many restrictions he's useless, as you say. But soft disables allow for a much more tactical still extremely helpfull playstyle which doesn't trivialise any encounter.
Plus soft disables can stack with a tank. Meaning that it'd be possible to introduce mobs and bosses which basically do too much damage for a Tank to survive unless there's a CC around to reduce that damage. Meaning you'd have less worry about CCs being replaced by a tank.
I don't know if this fits entirely into the traditional definition of CC but it does basically fill the exact same role. You're preventing damage by making sure it doesn't even hit you in the first place.
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Seems people bring up different views and opinions on the role of CC in the Trinity.
Do you feel that CC should be a major part of the Trinity style PvE?
If so, how you believe it should be handled?
another question:
What Other Roles should be Added to the Trinity? And How should they be done?
The Trinity for those that do not know, is the concept for PvE designed around some form of (Tanking/Support/Damaging)
these parent roles can be split into Sub-Roles.
Tank
*Off Tank
*Main Tank
Support
*Healer
*Buffer
Damaging
*Debuffer
*CC
but in some cases, these subroles arent used or are neglected all together. Why this is,,,, I dont know. You tell me.....
I think you get the subroles wrong , maybe because you don't get that tank,dps and healing is also subroles.
I have found it very helpfull to dicern between the trinity and the HOLY trinity, because its not the same.
The HOLY trinity consist of tank, dps and healer
they are each a subclass of a more fundamental consept, thats form the trinity
basicly tank is a simple instance of control, dps is just one simple way to have damage, and healing is just a way of support. Thats it. (debuff is basicly control, and buffing is support)
games can and have tossed in alot of different roles, but it commes down to thesse 3. Support, Damage and Control. That is the trinity. Most games MMO's have some sort of trinity setup. Alot of games have the holy trinity.
A game can have developed each of these roles further than the tank,dps, healer. very few games have gone tottally away from the holy trinity! Guildwars 1 had no tank (no threat mecanic in the game), but the frontline warrior did alot of control work, and because of that healer and dps could stay in thier roles.
Btw I found ArenaNets take on it very interesting! (Scroll down to the dps, healer, controll talk)
See no point in creating another part of the trinity just so you can create classes to fill that role.
If the game accepts the meta-game as part of its mechanics (out of game politics) then CC can be but for the majority of gamers out there, bringing specific classes for XYZ is something most MMOs avoid. And for good reason.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Wasn't DAoC an epicly brilliant game that died before its time?
DAoC was the best. CC really mattered, and made the game really fun. It could make combat hectic, and fast paced, as you controlled Mobs, and hoped to kill others before the cc wore off, or cc'd an unexpected add, and stuff like that.
HOWEVER, the big problem was PVP. It became the first to get off CC was an instant win.
Because you're frozen, can't do anything once sleeped, or snared, or whatever. So the other side just wails on you, and by the time you come out of it, to late, enough DPS has been done to you that you're going to lose.
Wasn't DAoC an epicly brilliant game that died before its time?
DAoC was the best. CC really mattered, and made the game really fun. It could make combat hectic, and fast paced, as you controlled Mobs, and hoped to kill others before the cc wore off, or cc'd an unexpected add, and stuff like that.
HOWEVER, the big problem was PVP. It became the first to get off CC was an instant win.
Because you're frozen, can't do anything once sleeped, or snared, or whatever. So the other side just wails on you, and by the time you come out of it, to late, enough DPS has been done to you that you're going to lose.
until someone manages to CC on them so that the flow of the combat swings in your favour once again...... or are you suggesting that only one side is allowed to use CC abilities.. DAOC combat .. PVP especially was far more dynamic.. which is also why stealthers were there to take out the casters/healers.. so that the flow of combat would also swing in their favour.. if there was a problem with PVP in DAOC .... .... im not sure what it was
until someone manages to CC on them so that the flow of the combat swings in your favour once again...... or are you suggesting that only one side is allowed to use CC abilities.. DAOC combat .. PVP especially was far more dynamic.. which is also why stealthers were there to take out the casters/healers.. so that the flow of combat would also swing in their favour.. if there was a problem with PVP in DAOC .... .... im not sure what it was
I've not actually played DAOC so feel free to correct me if my impression is wrong.
But the impression I'm getting from what I read about it is that the long-term and mid-term gameplay was great fun ( big realm wars and tactical large scale engagements ) but that the short-term gameplay was somewhat lacking ( being frozen in place for half the fight isn't that much fun ).
I think CC would be a lot more interesting for both sides if it moved away from hard disables ( stuns, mezzes and sleeps that completely take way all character control ) to more soft disables ( silences, roots, disarms etc. that take only a single aspect of character control away ). With rules making sure only one type of soft disable can be active at a time ( you can be silenced, you can be rooted but you can't be silenced and rooted at the same time. New effect overwrites the previous one ).
Silencing a healer is still a great way to swing the battle in your favor. But a silenced healer can still kite. He may even have some other abilities which work through silences. So he still has options open, instead of being reduced to watching himself die.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Wasn't DAoC an epicly brilliant game that died before its time?
DAoC was the best. CC really mattered, and made the game really fun. It could make combat hectic, and fast paced, as you controlled Mobs, and hoped to kill others before the cc wore off, or cc'd an unexpected add, and stuff like that.
HOWEVER, the big problem was PVP. It became the first to get off CC was an instant win.
Because you're frozen, can't do anything once sleeped, or snared, or whatever. So the other side just wails on you, and by the time you come out of it, to late, enough DPS has been done to you that you're going to lose.
I played an Enchanter in EQ1, it was exactly the same (sounds like DAoC copied EQ1 for CC). It was very important not just for grouping but for raiding as well.
If there is CC in the MMO then just spread it around the classes. If people cant do their normal role and CC at the same time then they probably shouldnt be doing the content.
Also, CC should be discouraged. Bad CC can ruin good MMOs. Especially PvP.
Rift PvP is all CC, they added in diminishing returns but the damage is done.
Warhammer PvP was ruined by CC.
WoW PvP was even worse before CC diminishing returns.
Didnt PvP in AoC so dont know about that.
MMOs with abundant CC always have horrible PvP now. Diminishing returns helps but only a little. Either way, PvP in MMOs shouldnt be decided by who can CC lock and who cant.
I don't think all CC needs to be 1 or 0. Either a complete disable or nothing at all.
What about abilities like DAOs (not an MMO, I know) Hex of Misdirection? Turns all regular hits into misses and all crits into regular hits. That's some pretty powerfull damage control right there. Higher level mobs would presumably have higher crit rates (if a tank's defense decreases their chance to be critted then just use base crit chance for the hit/miss calculation) and thus the spell wouldn't be as powerful, but probably still very useful.
Maybe silences which prevent those heavy hitting mobs from using their "1-shot clothie" abilities but still leave them free to auto-attack.
I think if you were to introduce a CC class you'd need to move away from hard disables ( stuns etc. ) and move on to soft disables ( blinds, silences etc. ). Hard disables either cause the class to be massively OP or have so many restrictions he's useless, as you say. But soft disables allow for a much more tactical still extremely helpfull playstyle which doesn't trivialise any encounter.
Plus soft disables can stack with a tank. Meaning that it'd be possible to introduce mobs and bosses which basically do too much damage for a Tank to survive unless there's a CC around to reduce that damage. Meaning you'd have less worry about CCs being replaced by a tank.
I don't know if this fits entirely into the traditional definition of CC but it does basically fill the exact same role. You're preventing damage by making sure it doesn't even hit you in the first place.
well, there is a big difference between CCing and debuffing. debuffing CAN effectively work like CCing, but eventually the end result is the same (meaning it gets nerfed to hell). primary example is turgur insect(slow) in EQ1. at one point, the spell is extreamly powerful. but then it became "too powerful" and "slow mitigation" was introduced into the game and there is only maybe a 5% difference between a slowed mob and unslowed mob.
by using debuff as a CC method is simply changing the semantics of the same argument. hex of misdirection rarely worked in "nightmare" setting and a resisted hex is simply a waste of time(useless). CC as a whole doesnt work because the power of the ability scales DIRECTLY with the power of the mob you are fighting. it trivilize the content because it directly alters the difficulty of the encounter by the power of the encounter rather then the power of the toon. it's an acceptable feature in a single player game, but in an MMO it can easily be abused and cause plenty of animosity between classes. why bring tanks when a CCer can debuff/lock down mobs that dps can tank the encounter? it's a problem i dealt with many times over.
during PoP/GoD, enchanters were so powerful that they rarely needed other classes to do anything. occationally i'd teach a druid/ranger to group with me just so they can make things easier and i'd have someone to talk to during the long hours of grinding. they were happy because they were getting xp faster then any other group they can get into. yet even when i'm grouped with them, their only duty was to resnare the mob while charm is broken....
the problem is while CCing is hard to master, there WERE some "master's" out there that made the rest of the server look bad:D they were HIGHLY sought after by any guild/group but they rarely needed anyone to kill stuff. eventually cross class b17chin finally got the class nerfed to the point that they were only crack machines and the real enchanters quit the game. the skill of the "old masters" was never passed on to the newer generation of crack machine players and the class pretty much just died out.
I have never yet played a PVE based mmo where you need cc. High damage output is all that you will ever need except for a few bosses etc.
cc is for PVP.
This comment makes me so sad..because it means this is the WoW-generation that never played UO, EQ, DAoC or any of hte other games that came before the cartoony mess of easy.
Games have become very one-dimensional, EQ2 is probably the closest to having a 4th role with support being strongly featured in raids and groups for mana regen and buffing. CC died away in Eq2 after about the first year, kind of like WoW.
I'd say before we revist the need for CC for groups, it needs to be more attractive to the solo player, as that is what the market is for the most part now. Things like Tanks and healers suffer more I believe from the inabillity to solo as effectively as DPS do, making them less attractive to the casual player.
I tanked in EQ1, and off-tanked. I loved it. Tanking in WoW just completely turned me off, and so did healing. There's too much responsibility dumped on the healer or the tank and none on DPS. It made it frustrating playing with morons who'd never heard of deaggro (that's largely Blizzard's fault for dumbing down DPS so that a 4 year old can run a heroic)
Perhaps we should scale back the mass of classes so you don't have so much imbalance, and focus on refining the Trinity idea.
I clearly remeber the rogues role in ubers in wow was to stun pats to avoid linking groups in pulls. Also in the last fight someone had to kite a dragon until we could kill one of the other bosses. Also in strat the clerics would use a spell that mezzed some undead. That was all 2005.
Buffers, pullers, blacksmiths for repair during runs, separate melee and caster DPS, off-heals, off-tanks, ranged classes to pick off runners.
There's much more to good grouping than just tank-dps-heal.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Comments
This comment makes me so sad..because it means this is the WoW-generation that never played UO, EQ, DAoC or any of hte other games that came before the cartoony mess of easy.
Games have become very one-dimensional, EQ2 is probably the closest to having a 4th role with support being strongly featured in raids and groups for mana regen and buffing. CC died away in Eq2 after about the first year, kind of like WoW.
I'd say before we revist the need for CC for groups, it needs to be more attractive to the solo player, as that is what the market is for the most part now. Things like Tanks and healers suffer more I believe from the inabillity to solo as effectively as DPS do, making them less attractive to the casual player.
I tanked in EQ1, and off-tanked. I loved it. Tanking in WoW just completely turned me off, and so did healing. There's too much responsibility dumped on the healer or the tank and none on DPS. It made it frustrating playing with morons who'd never heard of deaggro (that's largely Blizzard's fault for dumbing down DPS so that a 4 year old can run a heroic)
Perhaps we should scale back the mass of classes so you don't have so much imbalance, and focus on refining the Trinity idea.
CC serves almost exactly the same purpose as a healer. Instead of healing damage after it is dealt, they prevent damage before it has been dealt. The difference is that you can omit a CC class but you absolutely cannot omit a healing class.
DrWiggly had it right: a "support" category for CC and regen makes sense if repop time is relevant and regen is non-existant. But as long as downtime is not an issue at all, preventing damage is useless next to having an extra tank who soaks the additional damage or an extra healer who heals the additional damage.
I agree with you guys don't get me wrong. But even back in the later stages of EQ most people formed AoE groups, around the Luclin Era. Games these days are way too easy, monsters have so few hps. It makes it so you don't really need CC classes. Also like another person posted in a post you regain mana and health back faster now in games cause most players want shorter down times. Another reason for the CC to vanish as well as most classes get a CC ability, weither its a root, blind, or whatever CC type ability the Enchanter / Bards of the past are gone...... Oh how I miss my EQ bard.
Yeah Luclin, that was about when SOE took over Verant Interactive and started smearing their stupid all over EQ. Now CC also bases its need on the abilities of the MOBs you are figthing. Since most are simply stamped out of the default 'run up and auto-attack' template merely using tanks to be the CC is alright. Now, add enemies that sleep your healer, or meses the tank and turns him on his group? Now what? When the MOBs are CCing you your team had better have a way of dealing with it and simply having more tanks and healers is not going to work because that cuts down on those needed damage roles. One of the key roles to being a good CC player was knowing the enemy better than anyone. Knowing their abilities and when/how to counter them. Part of the CC build was and should always include anti-CC abilities that can help get your allies back in the fight and doing their job.
One of the worst things to be happening to MMOs in recent years is the complete amalgamation of class roles simply because players cried because someone could do something they couldn't. Why wasn't Aragorn casting spells like Gandalf? Why wasn't Elminster a master of dual scimitars like Drizzt D'Urden? Should the Hulk have been as fast as The Flash or Storm as resiliant as Collossus? Let me give you a more modern example. If you were wounded in a battle and had the choice of a sniper or a medic to tend to your wounds, who would you choose? People specialize. It is what makes them good at what they do. There is an old term D&D players used to use to describe bards. 'Jack of all trades, masters of none.' It was what made their ability to do a little of what everyone else did balanced. They weren't very good at it in comparison.
Problem now is that players complain so much that devs give them cross class abilities that are just as important and powerful as those typically held by their classic jobs. Here is a more recent quote some of you may remember. "Everyone can be super. And when everyone is super... no one will be." Take away what makes classes special. What makes them unique and you kill what a lot of players liked about them. I personally loved being the CC player, or the healer. I don't want to DPS, I don't want to tank. Stop giving me abilities to do that because when you do that is one less ability I could have had that would have let me do my job better.
I think what needs to be done is to remove DPS from the trinity and instead give all classes a toggle skill that will allow them to DPS. Then replace that empty spot with crowd control.
Every class can DPS in addition to filling a single trinity role. Make sure your advancement system does not require players to have multiple gear sets ( strength stat increases melee damage while in "frenzy stance" but increases agro while in "defensive stance". Agility increases ranged damage while in "Sniper mode" but increases CC duration while in "Trapper mode". etc. )
In a normal group of 6 you'd need 1 of each role and 3 randoms that can be any class at all. Make sure you can only switch from DPS to your other role while outside of combat to maintain balance and some tactics.
This means every class can solo while in their DPS mode. Every class fills a vital group role while in their other mode. Every class is still dependant on others as per normal trinity.
EDIT: Of course, PvE and PvP would have to be balanced accordingly. Immunity timers or a resolve bar for PvP and enemies as described in the post above me for PvE. And of course guard and PvP taunt for tanks.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Me likey. No go get some funding and make a game. Seriously though I think DC tried something like this, and it was a brilliant idea. Just wasted on a crappy game.
as an old school enchanter, i can say that EQ1 has proven quite conclusively that CC doesn't work in a MMO. due to the nature of the ability,(all or nothing) the CCer is either overpowered or completely useless in most cases. IF CC is implimented properly, there is no content that cant be trivilized by a skilled CCer. however, if the content is designed to make CC unreliable, then the CCer is basiclly useless due to the fact that it would be easier to hire another tank for tank mez which is a reliable method of CC.
the power of CC doesnt scale well with expansions. because CC ability scales directly with the difficulty of the mobs in each expansion, while other abilities (tanking/dps/healing/etc...) usually lags behind with each expansion. other abilities lag behind to provide "matured" players a greater challenge as each expansion comes out. instead of facing the 2000 hitting mobs, you are now facing a 4000 hitting mob but the tank can only tank about 20% better. this provides a much greater challenge which force the "matured players" to come up with new tactics and strategy to tackle the situation.
CC on the other hand scales DIRECTLY with the mob. so instead of neutralizing a 2000 hitting mob, the CCer is now neutralizing a 4000 hitting mob or a 100% increase in effectiveness as opposed to the tank who is getting a 20% increase in defensive capabilities. as a result, the CCer became "too powerful" relative to other classes because their ability scales with the much more difficult mobs rather then the relatively modest upgrades of all other classes.
as a result, the enchanter class in EQ1 was rendered useless as their abilities doesnt work on high lvl encounters which you NEED CCing, but it works on mobs that are fairly trivial which doesnt require any CCing at all. eventually the class is simply obsolete due to the nature of their abilities.
i lived through the era's when CCer was 1 of the holy trinity, it was fun, we were GODLY, and our ability overshadowed all other classes, but we knew the nerf bats are going to kill us sooner or later due to our god like ability to trivilize pretty much any encouter the game designer can throw at us:D
I don't think all CC needs to be 1 or 0. Either a complete disable or nothing at all.
What about abilities like DAOs (not an MMO, I know) Hex of Misdirection? Turns all regular hits into misses and all crits into regular hits. That's some pretty powerfull damage control right there. Higher level mobs would presumably have higher crit rates (if a tank's defense decreases their chance to be critted then just use base crit chance for the hit/miss calculation) and thus the spell wouldn't be as powerful, but probably still very useful.
Maybe silences which prevent those heavy hitting mobs from using their "1-shot clothie" abilities but still leave them free to auto-attack.
I think if you were to introduce a CC class you'd need to move away from hard disables ( stuns etc. ) and move on to soft disables ( blinds, silences etc. ). Hard disables either cause the class to be massively OP or have so many restrictions he's useless, as you say. But soft disables allow for a much more tactical still extremely helpfull playstyle which doesn't trivialise any encounter.
Plus soft disables can stack with a tank. Meaning that it'd be possible to introduce mobs and bosses which basically do too much damage for a Tank to survive unless there's a CC around to reduce that damage. Meaning you'd have less worry about CCs being replaced by a tank.
I don't know if this fits entirely into the traditional definition of CC but it does basically fill the exact same role. You're preventing damage by making sure it doesn't even hit you in the first place.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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I think you get the subroles wrong , maybe because you don't get that tank,dps and healing is also subroles.
I have found it very helpfull to dicern between the trinity and the HOLY trinity, because its not the same.
The HOLY trinity consist of tank, dps and healer
they are each a subclass of a more fundamental consept, thats form the trinity
basicly tank is a simple instance of control, dps is just one simple way to have damage, and healing is just a way of support. Thats it. (debuff is basicly control, and buffing is support)
games can and have tossed in alot of different roles, but it commes down to thesse 3. Support, Damage and Control. That is the trinity. Most games MMO's have some sort of trinity setup. Alot of games have the holy trinity.
A game can have developed each of these roles further than the tank,dps, healer. very few games have gone tottally away from the holy trinity! Guildwars 1 had no tank (no threat mecanic in the game), but the frontline warrior did alot of control work, and because of that healer and dps could stay in thier roles.
Btw I found ArenaNets take on it very interesting! (Scroll down to the dps, healer, controll talk)
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/
See no point in creating another part of the trinity just so you can create classes to fill that role.
If the game accepts the meta-game as part of its mechanics (out of game politics) then CC can be but for the majority of gamers out there, bringing specific classes for XYZ is something most MMOs avoid. And for good reason.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
DAoC was the best. CC really mattered, and made the game really fun. It could make combat hectic, and fast paced, as you controlled Mobs, and hoped to kill others before the cc wore off, or cc'd an unexpected add, and stuff like that.
HOWEVER, the big problem was PVP. It became the first to get off CC was an instant win.
Because you're frozen, can't do anything once sleeped, or snared, or whatever. So the other side just wails on you, and by the time you come out of it, to late, enough DPS has been done to you that you're going to lose.
until someone manages to CC on them so that the flow of the combat swings in your favour once again...... or are you suggesting that only one side is allowed to use CC abilities.. DAOC combat .. PVP especially was far more dynamic.. which is also why stealthers were there to take out the casters/healers.. so that the flow of combat would also swing in their favour.. if there was a problem with PVP in DAOC .... .... im not sure what it was
I've not actually played DAOC so feel free to correct me if my impression is wrong.
But the impression I'm getting from what I read about it is that the long-term and mid-term gameplay was great fun ( big realm wars and tactical large scale engagements ) but that the short-term gameplay was somewhat lacking ( being frozen in place for half the fight isn't that much fun ).
I think CC would be a lot more interesting for both sides if it moved away from hard disables ( stuns, mezzes and sleeps that completely take way all character control ) to more soft disables ( silences, roots, disarms etc. that take only a single aspect of character control away ). With rules making sure only one type of soft disable can be active at a time ( you can be silenced, you can be rooted but you can't be silenced and rooted at the same time. New effect overwrites the previous one ).
Silencing a healer is still a great way to swing the battle in your favor. But a silenced healer can still kite. He may even have some other abilities which work through silences. So he still has options open, instead of being reduced to watching himself die.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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I played an Enchanter in EQ1, it was exactly the same (sounds like DAoC copied EQ1 for CC). It was very important not just for grouping but for raiding as well.
If there is CC in the MMO then just spread it around the classes. If people cant do their normal role and CC at the same time then they probably shouldnt be doing the content.
Also, CC should be discouraged. Bad CC can ruin good MMOs.
Especially PvP.
Rift PvP is all CC, they added in diminishing returns but the damage is done.
Warhammer PvP was ruined by CC.
WoW PvP was even worse before CC diminishing returns.
Didnt PvP in AoC so dont know about that.
MMOs with abundant CC always have horrible PvP now. Diminishing returns helps but only a little. Either way, PvP in MMOs shouldnt be decided by who can CC lock and who cant.
well, there is a big difference between CCing and debuffing. debuffing CAN effectively work like CCing, but eventually the end result is the same (meaning it gets nerfed to hell). primary example is turgur insect(slow) in EQ1. at one point, the spell is extreamly powerful. but then it became "too powerful" and "slow mitigation" was introduced into the game and there is only maybe a 5% difference between a slowed mob and unslowed mob.
by using debuff as a CC method is simply changing the semantics of the same argument. hex of misdirection rarely worked in "nightmare" setting and a resisted hex is simply a waste of time(useless). CC as a whole doesnt work because the power of the ability scales DIRECTLY with the power of the mob you are fighting. it trivilize the content because it directly alters the difficulty of the encounter by the power of the encounter rather then the power of the toon. it's an acceptable feature in a single player game, but in an MMO it can easily be abused and cause plenty of animosity between classes. why bring tanks when a CCer can debuff/lock down mobs that dps can tank the encounter? it's a problem i dealt with many times over.
during PoP/GoD, enchanters were so powerful that they rarely needed other classes to do anything. occationally i'd teach a druid/ranger to group with me just so they can make things easier and i'd have someone to talk to during the long hours of grinding. they were happy because they were getting xp faster then any other group they can get into. yet even when i'm grouped with them, their only duty was to resnare the mob while charm is broken....
the problem is while CCing is hard to master, there WERE some "master's" out there that made the rest of the server look bad:D they were HIGHLY sought after by any guild/group but they rarely needed anyone to kill stuff. eventually cross class b17chin finally got the class nerfed to the point that they were only crack machines and the real enchanters quit the game. the skill of the "old masters" was never passed on to the newer generation of crack machine players and the class pretty much just died out.
I clearly remeber the rogues role in ubers in wow was to stun pats to avoid linking groups in pulls. Also in the last fight someone had to kite a dragon until we could kill one of the other bosses. Also in strat the clerics would use a spell that mezzed some undead. That was all 2005.
Voted Yes.
Buffers, pullers, blacksmiths for repair during runs, separate melee and caster DPS, off-heals, off-tanks, ranged classes to pick off runners.
There's much more to good grouping than just tank-dps-heal.