All this talk about the shaterer and how the boss just stand there.. Ya sure he stands around and does his attacks, however we have not seen his full set up considering it was scaled down for the demo, and the devs even said all his skills were not active.
THAT being said , if you pay attention theres alot more sutff going on.. that fight had mob spawns (crystal thingys) that come in from all sides to kill! also to take out the turrets in the back! and if im not mistaken there is also minibosses that come and screw you up..
Long story short.. Shatterer + mobs + minibosses = WAR!!! You cant just look at the boss in the encounter and be like.. oh well hes not doing enough.. at full scale and with all the extra mobs comeing out you i see that as one hell of a dificult fight.. and this is only mid game! 1/2! Cant event immagine what zhitan is going to be like if we have to fight him!!! (condiering the shaterer is the crystal dragons minion.....)
Remember they have to scale (at least, the bosses in DEs do). It may be that the shatterer moves more/less depending on the number and level of the players fighting him. Imagine if there are three of you and he kept racing around like a massive dog chasing its tail, that would just look silly. Whereas if you have 100 players there and he's lunging to and fro after them, that makes sense.
Really big bosses doesn't move alot . Players and especial mellee will find it really annoying having to run for a minute to get into range, just because the shatterer are supposed to move ! Get real boys. Small bosses will move, big ones can't be bothered and thats a good thing !
Remember they have to scale (at least, the bosses in DEs do). It may be that the shatterer moves more/less depending on the number and level of the players fighting him. Imagine if there are three of you and he kept racing around like a massive dog chasing its tail, that would just look silly. Whereas if you have 100 players there and he's lunging to and fro after them, that makes sense.
It can be 10 times bigger, but it still cant hit more then full health player, expect with rare used special attacks, that can be avoid if players pay enough attention. So the size is just for entertaining.
Yeah, I noticed that too ... hopefull they will make those fights a little more interesting. The most impressive aspect so far has been their sheer size. Not so much the dynamics. It's always cool to have large world bosses lumbering around though.
I watched the videos and I agree with the OP's concern. I hate to say it, but is this part of the graphics/vs gameplay discussion? Do superior graphics inhibit the dev's ability to create flexible/fun boss encounters? Just a thought. Or did they just dumb the bosses down for the demo? Time will tell.
Remember they have to scale (at least, the bosses in DEs do). It may be that the shatterer moves more/less depending on the number and level of the players fighting him. Imagine if there are three of you and he kept racing around like a massive dog chasing its tail, that would just look silly. Whereas if you have 100 players there and he's lunging to and fro after them, that makes sense.
It can be 10 times bigger, but it still cant hit more then full health player, expect with rare used special attacks, that can be avoid if players pay enough attention. So the size is just for entertaining.
That's what I mean though. I'm not talking about abilities, I'm talking about aesthetics. It could simply be that in front of smallish groups he moves differently to how he would move in front of a larger one.
Plus, I believe I read somewhere that there will be more abilities etc. when a mob scales up . . . can't find a source though so feel free to disregard this bit
The elemental is ok, I mean, they are bloody hands that only attack through spells, what the hell you expected?
It was already said that gigantic bosses (like the shatterer and beyond) will be static for practical reasons, so basically is, the bigger the boss, the less he moves, the harder he hits, about the time between these boss attacks, well I dont know, the game have not launched yet, things could change
They mentioned it somewhere (no, Im not sourcing it) that the movement of giant bosses is limited by the gfx engine (I think it has something to do with how smooth the game runs)... so even if you beg as hard as u can, giant bosses will be moving on a very limited scale
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
No, we've seen four big bosses so far. The Greater Earth Elemental and the large Frost Wurm should be moving around at all. The Shatterer and the Shadow Behemoth are static (so far), although these are both from the first playable demo and the developers have stated in one of their interviews that some large bosses would be moving/swimming/flying around.
Edit: PRAISE THE ALOT, FOR HE HAS CONQUERED!
"Eric: Once a creature reaches a certain size, we have to make them a bit more static to account for how they interact with terrain and players as they move. So you won’t ever see the Shatterer arbitrarily chase someone down while he’s on the ground. There will be other super huge bosses which fly or swim who have a higher degree of freedom as they move around.
We also have a large number of bosses who are much more free with their movement and can roam the world like a standard monster. The Drake Broodmother is one of the smaller examples of that sort of boss. Some of those bosses actually get really large although none are as large as the Shatterer."
Would it really be that different if the bosses moved around or not? maybe for the melee toons which have to move with him. But it'll be pretty much the same fight. maybe the boss could be given the ability to roll/dodge as well, then it would be more exciting trying to get the right angle and not miss.
also, did the players who played the demo enjoy the boss battles? Or were they dissapointed with this issue too?
The elemental is ok, I mean, they are bloody hands that only attack through spells, what the hell you expected?
It was already said that gigantic bosses (like the shatterer and beyond) will be static for practical reasons, so basically is, the bigger the boss, the less he moves, the harder he hits, about the time between these boss attacks, well I dont know, the game have not launched yet, things could change
They mentioned it somewhere (no, Im not sourcing it) that the movement of giant bosses is limited by the gfx engine (I think it has something to do with how smooth the game runs)... so even if you beg as hard as u can, giant bosses will be moving on a very limited scale
What I meant was about the time between bosses attacks, I already know that moving gigantic bosses will never be in it
"It has potential" -Second most used phrase on existence "It sucks" -Most used phrase on existence
Yea, looking at the videos the fights look very static...but I think there are reasons for that:
- These bosses are open events, so they should not be overly complicated, otherwise it becomes frustratin very fast. They will most likely be the "if you dont screw up yourself, you will not die" kind of boss. Basicaly, they are "quest" mobs...and frankly, for quest mobs they are great.
- Difficulty was obviously reduced...players taking a long time to react to stuff didnt help either. Most of them were more worried with showing the boss to the camera than to actually help defeat the event.
- The lack of tanking is an important thing to note. If you dont have a tank (or tanks) and the boss keeps moving to melee people, the fight will be a complete mess...
With that said...yea, they could add more "dramatic" feel to the fights...maybe emotes/moves that dont do anything but add to the feel of the fight?
Anyway, open events...i'm not worried. I'm sure things will get a lot harder when inside dungeons. My 2c.
I was blown away by the Shatterer event too, but it always stuck with me that none of it's attacks appeared to be relevent to it's mass. When it comes crashing down or stomps, I expect to see players knocked off their feet with the impact. When it buffets it's wings, I expect to see players knocked away, ass over teakettle. The breath attack seemed very lackluster as well because there was very little visual indication that it was actually being used.
A boss doesn't need to run around the battlefield for the fight to be dynamic. With a creature the size of the Shatterer, I would expect that at the very least, it's mass would translate through it's attacks. But in that fight, players could have been fighting a creature one tenth the size for all the impact it had on them.
This is one of the things I hope is still in development. The scale is mindblowing -- until combat starts. Then it's just another mob, albeit one that looks damned awesome while hogging all that screen real estate.
Think you have to remember that the shatterer is spawning minions as well as attacking players,their is a lot going on. Dont forget that it's not an elder dragon it's a like comparing a mouse to a lion as the dev says.
The only thing I could come up with to make giant boss battles more interesting is to make the boss its own hostile terrain. One that can be climbed, searched for vital spots, areas where you can fall off or be knocked off, etc. I think of the God of War trailers and envison a toon climbing up the Shatterers leg and looking for sweet spots, risking his life from instant death from its tail whip or a snip reaction from the Shatterer as if you were a horsefly.
Otherwise - big bosses in MMOs are always giant life bars that are pelted down by the masses..
In that video with the Shatterer they did say that we will be fighting the elder dragons, but nothing on how. I just can't see running up and hitting one of them with a sword and actually doing damage. One way to do a large scale boss fight is this.
This is the Jhen Mohran fight in Monster Hunter Tri. While not exciting to watch in that format, imagine 60 players with the GW2 skills and combat system and I could see a pretty epic fight with the elders.
The only thing I could come up with to make giant boss battles more interesting is to make the boss its own hostile terrain. One that can be climbed, searched for vital spots, areas where you can fall off or be knocked off, etc. I think of the God of War trailers and envison a toon climbing up the Shatterers leg and looking for sweet spots, risking his life from instant death from its tail whip or a snip reaction from the Shatterer as if you were a horsefly.
Otherwise - big bosses in MMOs are always giant life bars that are pelted down by the masses..
No climbing option in the game, but could be used some enviromental "hook" to do such moves
Huge bosses such as the Shatterer,Elemental,Shadow Behemoth and Frost Wurm do not really need to move around chasing characters. They just need to be more animated to give the feeling that they aren't static.
What I'm saying is that it feels like the bosses are just showing up so they can be killed by players. The thing I think is missing is that bosses should be trying to kill you just as much as you are trying to kill them. The Shatterer should be breathing fire, giving giant claw swipes at any nearby players, taking a player in its jaws if they get too close and tossing them across the map.
It just feels like these bosses are showing up and saying, "Hey I'm the boss, you are now free to kill me". They don't seem to have a purpose because it doesn't seem like anyone's worrying about whether or not this dragon might actually wipe out all the players, they already know it's going to die and they're going to get some loot.
This is well said. It's a by-product of shallow themepark games. Not saying that will be the case here, but it's undeniable that while I play for fun, there has proven to be no fun in killing a purposeless boss and certainly no fun playing against static and unintelligent computer controlled npc's that dont actually try to play against the player-base.
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All this talk about the shaterer and how the boss just stand there.. Ya sure he stands around and does his attacks, however we have not seen his full set up considering it was scaled down for the demo, and the devs even said all his skills were not active.
THAT being said , if you pay attention theres alot more sutff going on.. that fight had mob spawns (crystal thingys) that come in from all sides to kill! also to take out the turrets in the back! and if im not mistaken there is also minibosses that come and screw you up..
Long story short.. Shatterer + mobs + minibosses = WAR!!! You cant just look at the boss in the encounter and be like.. oh well hes not doing enough.. at full scale and with all the extra mobs comeing out you i see that as one hell of a dificult fight.. and this is only mid game! 1/2! Cant event immagine what zhitan is going to be like if we have to fight him!!! (condiering the shaterer is the crystal dragons minion.....)
Remember they have to scale (at least, the bosses in DEs do). It may be that the shatterer moves more/less depending on the number and level of the players fighting him. Imagine if there are three of you and he kept racing around like a massive dog chasing its tail, that would just look silly. Whereas if you have 100 players there and he's lunging to and fro after them, that makes sense.
Really big bosses doesn't move alot . Players and especial mellee will find it really annoying having to run for a minute to get into range, just because the shatterer are supposed to move ! Get real boys. Small bosses will move, big ones can't be bothered and thats a good thing !
It can be 10 times bigger, but it still cant hit more then full health player, expect with rare used special attacks, that can be avoid if players pay enough attention. So the size is just for entertaining.
Yeah, I noticed that too ... hopefull they will make those fights a little more interesting. The most impressive aspect so far has been their sheer size. Not so much the dynamics. It's always cool to have large world bosses lumbering around though.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I watched the videos and I agree with the OP's concern. I hate to say it, but is this part of the graphics/vs gameplay discussion? Do superior graphics inhibit the dev's ability to create flexible/fun boss encounters? Just a thought. Or did they just dumb the bosses down for the demo? Time will tell.
this boss moves around - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx0QnKgQ1CI
giant boar - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScdR822D7n8#t=10m45s
enemy AI overhaul underway - http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gamereactor.no%2Fartikler%2F124533%2FIntervju%253A%2BGuild%2BWars%2B2%2F
That's what I mean though. I'm not talking about abilities, I'm talking about aesthetics. It could simply be that in front of smallish groups he moves differently to how he would move in front of a larger one.
Plus, I believe I read somewhere that there will be more abilities etc. when a mob scales up . . . can't find a source though so feel free to disregard this bit
They mentioned it somewhere (no, Im not sourcing it) that the movement of giant bosses is limited by the gfx engine (I think it has something to do with how smooth the game runs)... so even if you beg as hard as u can, giant bosses will be moving on a very limited scale
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Static bosses are boring and easy to kill, right?
No, we've seen four big bosses so far. The Greater Earth Elemental and the large Frost Wurm should be moving around at all. The Shatterer and the Shadow Behemoth are static (so far), although these are both from the first playable demo and the developers have stated in one of their interviews that some large bosses would be moving/swimming/flying around.
Edit: PRAISE THE ALOT, FOR HE HAS CONQUERED!
"Eric: Once a creature reaches a certain size, we have to make them a bit more static to account for how they interact with terrain and players as they move. So you won’t ever see the Shatterer arbitrarily chase someone down while he’s on the ground. There will be other super huge bosses which fly or swim who have a higher degree of freedom as they move around.
We also have a large number of bosses who are much more free with their movement and can roam the world like a standard monster. The Drake Broodmother is one of the smaller examples of that sort of boss. Some of those bosses actually get really large although none are as large as the Shatterer."
http://www.guildfans.com/story.html?story=24059&storypage=2
Would it really be that different if the bosses moved around or not? maybe for the melee toons which have to move with him. But it'll be pretty much the same fight. maybe the boss could be given the ability to roll/dodge as well, then it would be more exciting trying to get the right angle and not miss.
also, did the players who played the demo enjoy the boss battles? Or were they dissapointed with this issue too?
What I meant was about the time between bosses attacks, I already know that moving gigantic bosses will never be in it
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
Yea, looking at the videos the fights look very static...but I think there are reasons for that:
- These bosses are open events, so they should not be overly complicated, otherwise it becomes frustratin very fast. They will most likely be the "if you dont screw up yourself, you will not die" kind of boss. Basicaly, they are "quest" mobs...and frankly, for quest mobs they are great.
- Difficulty was obviously reduced...players taking a long time to react to stuff didnt help either. Most of them were more worried with showing the boss to the camera than to actually help defeat the event.
- The lack of tanking is an important thing to note. If you dont have a tank (or tanks) and the boss keeps moving to melee people, the fight will be a complete mess...
With that said...yea, they could add more "dramatic" feel to the fights...maybe emotes/moves that dont do anything but add to the feel of the fight?
Anyway, open events...i'm not worried. I'm sure things will get a lot harder when inside dungeons. My 2c.
I was blown away by the Shatterer event too, but it always stuck with me that none of it's attacks appeared to be relevent to it's mass. When it comes crashing down or stomps, I expect to see players knocked off their feet with the impact. When it buffets it's wings, I expect to see players knocked away, ass over teakettle. The breath attack seemed very lackluster as well because there was very little visual indication that it was actually being used.
A boss doesn't need to run around the battlefield for the fight to be dynamic. With a creature the size of the Shatterer, I would expect that at the very least, it's mass would translate through it's attacks. But in that fight, players could have been fighting a creature one tenth the size for all the impact it had on them.
This is one of the things I hope is still in development. The scale is mindblowing -- until combat starts. Then it's just another mob, albeit one that looks damned awesome while hogging all that screen real estate.
Think you have to remember that the shatterer is spawning minions as well as attacking players,their is a lot going on. Dont forget that it's not an elder dragon it's a like comparing a mouse to a lion as the dev says.
Listen to the dev in the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX8GJcGIVbI
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Jesus/Jesus.htm
The only thing I could come up with to make giant boss battles more interesting is to make the boss its own hostile terrain. One that can be climbed, searched for vital spots, areas where you can fall off or be knocked off, etc. I think of the God of War trailers and envison a toon climbing up the Shatterers leg and looking for sweet spots, risking his life from instant death from its tail whip or a snip reaction from the Shatterer as if you were a horsefly.
Otherwise - big bosses in MMOs are always giant life bars that are pelted down by the masses..
Had to go back aways but I found a thread that was all about the size of the elder dragons. Some pics show just how large they can be.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/314639/page/1
In that video with the Shatterer they did say that we will be fighting the elder dragons, but nothing on how. I just can't see running up and hitting one of them with a sword and actually doing damage. One way to do a large scale boss fight is this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvv7HWw3wUo&feature=related
This is the Jhen Mohran fight in Monster Hunter Tri. While not exciting to watch in that format, imagine 60 players with the GW2 skills and combat system and I could see a pretty epic fight with the elders.
No climbing option in the game, but could be used some enviromental "hook" to do such moves
Huge bosses such as the Shatterer,Elemental,Shadow Behemoth and Frost Wurm do not really need to move around chasing characters. They just need to be more animated to give the feeling that they aren't static.
This is well said. It's a by-product of shallow themepark games. Not saying that will be the case here, but it's undeniable that while I play for fun, there has proven to be no fun in killing a purposeless boss and certainly no fun playing against static and unintelligent computer controlled npc's that dont actually try to play against the player-base.