Shrug. AoC has only 4 races, Aion has only 2 races, LotrO has 4, TERA will have 6 and GW2 5. The players and fans of those MMO's seem to be able to cope with the devastating lack of races.
@Elikal: I guess you won't be playing a lot of those other MMO's either, since all of those will have only a few races, severly limiting your creative RPG spark?
I must eat what is served, until someone does it right. Most developers these days sacrificed the idea of making a cool RPG for making quick bucks and keep people addicted with hilarious gameplay mechanics. It's gaming sellout. And I have LONG stopped to find this topic funny. Companies ruin games for stockholders and cheap money and masses blindly accept it. Burgers instead of cuisine. But what do you want me to do? Do knitting instead?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I don't know why people, to whom race is insignificant even play role playing games?? Isn't the choice of race one of the most pivotal choices in a RPG? Maybe some of you guys are playing the wrong sort of game?
Having different race is one of the CORNERSTONES of any RPG. VO isn't! Since for me gameplay always overrules fancy additions like VO, of course I want rather races than VO. I mean, I want to play an RPG, not some interactive movie with action sequences! I want to play a role of something of many choices. People who don't want different races are not even tha audience for MMORPGs. Maybe they should play FPS shooter and IMVPO their opinion should not count, because they apparently play the wrong game. Just my opinion here. Just another bunch of people who drag down MMORPGs because they just want fast gratification and action, and don't care about the RPG core values and thus keep ruining RPGs.
If you don't care about race, you are WRONG here on a site called "mmoRPG"! RPGs have racial choices as a CORE MECHANIC! Try to read about it before you begin a hobby. Saying I don't care about races is like watching porn and say "it's all nice story, but I don't care about all the nude people."
Bizzare!
I thought this was about freedom and being openminded, and here you are showing the opposite. Shame on you
When I went back to SWG maybe a month ago, I think it had 10 or 12 races of which I would only ever consider 3. And some were even so silly it would ruin immersion for me if I met players like that :P But seriously, 20 races seems way over the top. That said, I'm not superpsyched about VO either but maybe SWtor will change that for me
edit: btw, how many playable races ARE there in SWtor?
I must eat what is served, until someone does it right. Most developers these days sacrificed the idea of making a cool RPG for making quick bucks and keep people addicted with hilarious gameplay mechanics. It's gaming sellout. And I have LONG stopped to find this topic funny. Companies ruin games for stockholders and cheap money and masses blindly accept it. Burgers instead of cuisine. But what do you want me to do? Do knitting instead?
Hmm, I think they're making cool MMORPG's but maybe not of the kind that you like most. Tastes differ.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't know why people, to whom race is insignificant even play role playing games?? Isn't the choice of race one of the most pivotal choices in a RPG? Maybe some of you guys are playing the wrong sort of game?
Having different race is one of the CORNERSTONES of any RPG. VO isn't! Since for me gameplay always overrules fancy additions like VO, of course I want rather races than VO. I mean, I want to play an RPG, not some interactive movie with action sequences! I want to play a role of something of many choices. People who don't want different races are not even tha audience for MMORPGs. Maybe they should play FPS shooter and IMVPO their opinion should not count, because they apparently play the wrong game. Just my opinion here. Just another bunch of people who drag down MMORPGs because they just want fast gratification and action, and don't care about the RPG core values and thus keep ruining RPGs.
If you don't care about race, you are WRONG here on a site called "mmoRPG"! RPGs have racial choices as a CORE MECHANIC! Try to read about it before you begin a hobby. Saying I don't care about races is like watching porn and say "it's all nice story, but I don't care about all the nude people."
Bizzare!
Maybe you're in the wrong place if you can't accept people can view things differently. What's important to you isn't always going to be important to other people. Did the thought occur to you that RPG's are many things other than just racial selection? Character building is more than picking a race, getting lost in a new world, is a lot more than just picking a race. Maybe some folks simply like to play RPG's because they offer more than your typical FPS or action game?
Besides I really didn't see anyone say they didn't want racial selection, it was a matter of (20 races or VO?). It doesn't mean they want no racial selection at all, if they voted in favor of VO. It means more racial selection doesn't add up to a better game for them, especially in a sea of games that are exactly what the alternative to TOR is.
Open your mind, stop focusing on such (personal) absolutes.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Shrug. AoC has only 4 races, Aion has only 2 races, LotrO has 4, TERA will have 6 and GW2 5. The players and fans of those MMO's seem to be able to cope with the devastating lack of races.
@Elikal: I guess you won't be playing a lot of those other MMO's either, since all of those will have only a few races, severly limiting your creative RPG spark?
I must eat what is served, until someone does it right. Most developers these days sacrificed the idea of making a cool RPG for making quick bucks and keep people addicted with hilarious gameplay mechanics. It's gaming sellout. And I have LONG stopped to find this topic funny. Companies ruin games for stockholders and cheap money and masses blindly accept it. Burgers instead of cuisine. But what do you want me to do? Do knitting instead?
if it means we don't have to listen to you tell us how you know whats best for us and the genre anymore, then yes i would like that because it is getting so old.
I don't know why people, to whom race is insignificant even play role playing games?? Isn't the choice of race one of the most pivotal choices in a RPG? Maybe some of you guys are playing the wrong sort of game?
Having different race is one of the CORNERSTONES of any RPG. VO isn't! Since for me gameplay always overrules fancy additions like VO, of course I want rather races than VO. I mean, I want to play an RPG, not some interactive movie with action sequences! I want to play a role of something of many choices. People who don't want different races are not even tha audience for MMORPGs. Maybe they should play FPS shooter and IMVPO their opinion should not count, because they apparently play the wrong game. Just my opinion here. Just another bunch of people who drag down MMORPGs because they just want fast gratification and action, and don't care about the RPG core values and thus keep ruining RPGs.
If you don't care about race, you are WRONG here on a site called "mmoRPG"! RPGs have racial choices as a CORE MECHANIC! Try to read about it before you begin a hobby. Saying I don't care about races is like watching porn and say "it's all nice story, but I don't care about all the nude people."
Bizzare!
Maybe you're in the wrong place if you can't accept people can view things differently. What's important to you isn't always going to be important to other people. Did the thought occur to you that RPG's are many things other than just racial selection? Character building is more than picking a race, getting lost in a new world, is a lot more than just picking a race. Maybe some folks simply like to play RPG's because they offer more than your typical FPS or action game?
Besides I really didn't see anyone say they didn't want racial selection, it was a matter of (20 races or VO?), that doesn't mean they want no racial selection at all if they voted in favor of VO. It means more racial selection doesn't add up to a better game for them, especially in a sea of games that are exactly what the alternative to TOR is.
Open your mind, stop focusing on such (personal) absolutes.
You misunderstand. It is not about personal preferrences. It is about correct use of terms. If you make an interactive movie with action sequences instead of an RPG, selling it as "MMORPG" is lying!
It's like selling a motorbike as a car.
An RPG means to play a role. Playing a role means to have CHOICES of roles and in any classic RPG that means to have other than just ONE race, human. Yes even if Bioware calls different facepaint a different race, it's just absurd. SWTOR has only one playable race. Humans. Anyone seeing SW movies and being asked about other than human races will certainly NOT answer stuff like Miraluka or Zabrak, but Rodian, Wookiiee, Trandoshan or Twilek! Bioware is just cheating. They have only one playable race and hide that fact with Star-Trekkish facepaint and different noses and ears! It's a JOKE! And most certainly NOT a RPG.
Sorry, objectively they are doing it wrong. Thats not a matter of debateable taste, it is a matter of not understanding what an RPG is. And RPG is about races, classes and stats to chose. Like creating a D&D character. THAT is an RPG. What you are trying to do is to re-define the term RPG. What you do is like going into a church and saying it should be about porn and poker because you like that more than praying. It's not about taste, it is about understanding things.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Everyone who actually played the game, a lot of them longterm MMO fans and MMORPG reviewers confirm and emphasize that SWTOR is an MMORPG.
At least be honest with yourself, Elikal, it's just that SWTOR doesn't fit your idea of how an MMORPG should be. But it should be obvious from the earliest MMO's on, that there is no such thing as just 1 type or category of MMORPG's. Since UO and EQ and DAoC and CoH and WoW, it's obvious that there's all kinds of different MMORPG's, not only the brand that you seem to favor.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Everyone who actually played the game, a lot of them longterm MMO fans and MMORPG reviewers confirm and emphasize that SWTOR is an MMORPG.
At least be honest with yourself, Elikal, it's just that SWTOR doesn't fit your idea of how an MMORPG should be. But it should be obvious from the earliest MMO's on, that there is no such thing as just 1 type or category of MMORPG's. Since UO and EQ and DAoC and CoH and WoW, it's obvious that there's all kinds of different MMORPG's, not only the brand that you seem to favor.
All those were MMORPG's.
Yes, and there is a reason why ALL MMOs launched in the last years FAILED. I could explain, but people would not listen.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Yes, and there is a reason why ALL MMOs launched in the last years FAILED. I could explain, but people would not listen.
I think it has more to do with that the MMO market has changed, it isn't so much an emerging market anymore but one that has already been established. The very first MMO's had the luck that there was little competition with only a few MMO's around, and slowly more and more MMO gamers were introduced to internet and online gaming. Now as good as everyone has internet and is familiar or at least aware of online gaming.
As for the definition of 'failing', besides that the competition has become fiercer with hordes of MMO's on the scene, I find the term in itself pretty amusing. Quite some of those MMO's that (some) people apparently consider failing still have as many and more subs than most of the MMO's of the early years, and that even in a market that has become more competitive and crowded.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You misunderstand. It is not about personal preferrences. It is about correct use of terms. If you make an interactive movie with action sequences instead of an RPG, selling it as "MMORPG" is lying!
Most of my post was about this statement, "I don't know why people, to whom race is insignificant even play role playing games?? Isn't the choice of race one of the most pivotal choices in a RPG"
An RPG means to play a role. Playing a role means to have CHOICES of roles and in any classic RPG that means to have other than just ONE race, human. Yes even if Bioware calls different facepaint a different race, it's just absurd. SWTOR has only one playable race. Humans. Anyone seeing SW movies and being asked about other than human races will certainly NOT answer stuff like Miraluka or Zabrak, but Rodian, Wookiiee, Trandoshan or Twilek! Bioware is just cheating. They have only one playable race and hide that fact with Star-Trekkish facepaint and different noses and ears! It's a JOKE! And most certainly NOT a RPG.
Well they are different races according to Star wars lore. I see your point, but I usually pick Humanoids anyway in anything from D&D to TES. WIth that in mind it's not an issue for me, but I can see where others may want to be trando or rodian etc... If I had been in charge I'd have gone a different route and included some of the more exoctic races. On a side note they do have most of those races so it wouldn't be hard to add them later.
Sorry, objectively they are doing it wrong. Thats not a matter of debateable taste, it is a matter of not understanding what an RPG is. And RPG is about races, classes and stats to chose. Like creating a D&D character. THAT is an RPG. What you are trying to do is to re-define the term RPG. What you do is like going into a church and saying it should be about porn and poker because you like that more than praying. It's not about taste, it is about understanding things.
I can't say they're doing it wrong until I see the end result. I never felt KOTOR was a bad attempt at making an RPG, which it only had one race to play as, it still alowed you to build a character in the way you wanted it to play.
Your phrase confuses me, what do you mean by; I am trying to redefine what an RPG is? I did no such thing, I only said certain elements of an RPG (outside of race) may be more important to others. That's not attempting to define anything other than human nature.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Once you are done levelling your character you are left with your speechless toon doing end content.
=> Species > VO.
Once you're done levelling your voiceless but unchangably slightly different looking character you're left doing end game content after having skipped most if not all of whatever your journey to that point was about.
Logic, there is none in your statements.
First off, races do not get excluded because of VO: they have software to animate alien faces. Secondly, money does not get thrown on a big pile where this or that feature can nibble at, it's not the way it works.
And thirdly, you're all unbelievable idiots if you really think a huge evolution in audio is meaningless as some of you seem to believe. Now that was harsh, let me word it in a better way: you have no idea what you're talking about.
If you look at history, every self respecting film connaisseur will draw a big fat line to mark the fundamental difference between silent film and spoken film. Why? Because of the huge difference in experience and because it marked a huge increase in popularity, attracting an untold amount of new viewers and giving rise to a great many new genres.
What are the elements of a typical audio track? Music, effects and ... wait for it ... dialogue. That last one has been the one missing from MMO's for years (at least in any significance), while nearly every other genre (except games that try to portray a specific kind of story & character) have incorporated it and aren't looking back. And yet here we are complaining about how useless it is to finally finally make the damn audio track complete.
Audio people, guides attention and is thus an invaluable tool for immersion in any audiovisual medium, this is not some obscure theory, this is proven fact that has been experimented and evolved upon by filmmakers and theatres and operas and orchestras and so on for who knows how long.
Again, here we are discussing how incorporating some visual elements that:
1) Cause troubles with armor models, making for difficult updates.
2) Give no significant change to gameplay.
3) Are hidden and changed to differentiate yourself by gear just the same as without 20 races.
4) Most people won't choose for anyhow because it's well known that humans are by far the most popular race in any game that offers the choice (and before we forget, TOR does offer a choice)
And we're putting this against an element that brings change to the genre (no matter whether or not your personal bias says it doesn't) and is absolutely essential for the core feature of this game which is storytelling?
Seriously?
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Shrug. AoC has only 4 races, Aion has only 2 races, LotrO has 4, TERA will have 6 and GW2 5. The players and fans of those MMO's seem to be able to cope with the devastating lack of races.
@Elikal: I guess you won't be playing a lot of those other MMO's either, since all of those will have only a few races, severly limiting your creative RPG spark?
I must eat what is served, until someone does it right. Most developers these days sacrificed the idea of making a cool RPG for making quick bucks and keep people addicted with hilarious gameplay mechanics. It's gaming sellout. And I have LONG stopped to find this topic funny. Companies ruin games for stockholders and cheap money and masses blindly accept it. Burgers instead of cuisine. But what do you want me to do? Do knitting instead?
if it means we don't have to listen to you tell us how you know whats best for us and the genre anymore, then yes i would like that because it is getting so old.
You misunderstand. It is not about personal preferrences. It is about correct use of terms. If you make an interactive movie with action sequences instead of an RPG, selling it as "MMORPG" is lying!
It's like selling a motorbike as a car.
An RPG means to play a role. Playing a role means to have CHOICES of roles and in any classic RPG that means to have other than just ONE race, human. Yes even if Bioware calls different facepaint a different race, it's just absurd. SWTOR has only one playable race. Humans. Anyone seeing SW movies and being asked about other than human races will certainly NOT answer stuff like Miraluka or Zabrak, but Rodian, Wookiiee, Trandoshan or Twilek! Bioware is just cheating. They have only one playable race and hide that fact with Star-Trekkish facepaint and different noses and ears! It's a JOKE! And most certainly NOT a RPG.
Sorry, objectively they are doing it wrong. Thats not a matter of debateable taste, it is a matter of not understanding what an RPG is. And RPG is about races, classes and stats to chose. Like creating a D&D character. THAT is an RPG. What you are trying to do is to re-define the term RPG. What you do is like going into a church and saying it should be about porn and poker because you like that more than praying. It's not about taste, it is about understanding things.
When an actor acts is it not playing a role? Does he get a choice? No, he does not yet what he's doing is indeed roleplaying. The fact is there is more than one way to roleplay, there's sticking to a script and then there's ad libbing. The fact is we get to have more choice in our interactions with npcs in this game than any other MMO, period. It's not us who's trying to redefine what is an rpg, that's what you're doing. You're trying to pigeonhole it into being one thing and one thing only when it's not.
There is give and take in MMO development. Bioware decided to give us choice in our story and in our interaction with npcs rather than having a lot of races, which in all fairness to Bioware can be added anytime. Not only do we get a choice in story within a class but there are eight class stories to choose from. You want choice? There's your choice. It might not be the choices you wanted, but it fits my desire quite well. Now why don't you just go back to knitting or perhaps start following WOD. Oh, wait...WOD has only one race so far, human vampires. I guess you're just out of luck.
Yes, and there is a reason why ALL MMOs launched in the last years FAILED. I could explain, but people would not listen.
I think it has more to do with that the MMO market has changed, it isn't so much an emerging market anymore but one that has already been established. The very first MMO's had the luck that there was little competition with only a few MMO's around, and slowly more and more MMO gamers were introduced to internet and online gaming. Now as good as everyone has internet and is familiar or at least aware of online gaming.
As for the definition of 'failing', besides that the competition has become fiercer with hordes of MMO's on the scene, I find the term in itself pretty amusing. Quite some of those MMO's that (some) people apparently consider failing still have as many and more subs than most of the MMO's of the early years, and that even in a market that has become more competitive and crowded.
Really name for me all the MMO's released in the Western market since 2005 that have more subscribers than most of the early MMO's...
In fact besides Rift name how many MMO's in the western market released since 2005... have more than 4 servers in North America...
I'll go out on a limb here and say pretty much besides any MMO that is still under a year old. There is not one MMO released since World of Warcraft in a non asian market that has more subscribers than any of those early MMO's.. well maybe more than Anarchy Online peaked at...
Once the games released more currently (dcuo/Rift) hit a year of live time... Let's see how well they are doing.
The problem here is the fact that games like UO and EQ did not hit their peaks at release or even during the first year of release. Contrary to popular belief UO actually hit its peak subscriber numbers after Trammel (its documented various places aka interviews with people that worked on the game and at least one interview with the CEO of EA) and EQ I am not sure when its peak was hit but it was after the first year.
How many "newer" MMO's that people claim have failed.. are growing? As opposed to having hit their peak population either in under a year or in the first month or two of being "live"...
I agree with the first half of your comment. The second half I don't agree with. The other thing you are forgetting is that with the much higher cost of production these games are making far less profit than those early MMO's did.. even if they have the same level of subscribers. Which guess what that means from a company perspective.. the people that paid to create the game.. it would pretty much mean... the game failed.
Really name for me all the MMO's released in the Western market since 2005 that have more subscribers than most of the early MMO's...
In fact besides Rift name how many MMO's in the western market released since 2005... have more than 4 servers in North America...
I'll go out on a limb here and say pretty much besides any MMO that is still under a year old. There is not one MMO released since World of Warcraft in a non asian market that has more subscribers than any of those early MMO's.. well maybe more than Anarchy Online peaked at...
Once the games released more currently (dcuo/Rift) hit a year of live time... Let's see how well they are doing.
The problem here is the fact that games like UO and EQ did not hit their peaks at release or even during the first year of release. Contrary to popular belief UO actually hit its peak subscriber numbers after Trammel (its documented various places aka interviews with people that worked on the game and at least one interview with the CEO of EA) and EQ I am not sure when its peak was hit but it was after the first year.
How many "newer" MMO's that people claim have failed.. are growing? As opposed to having hit their peak population either in under a year or in the first month or two of being "live"...
I agree with the first half of your comment. The second half I don't agree with. The other thing you are forgetting is that with the much higher cost of production these games are making far less profit than those early MMO's did.. even if they have the same level of subscribers. Which guess what that means from a company perspective.. the people that paid to create the game.. it would pretty much mean... the game failed.
Those early MMO's, only EQ scored above 300k subs, in the West. If you include the East, then you'd have FFXI as well.
The rest hovered in the range of 50-250k subs.
As for the post-2005 MMO's, they've been hovering in the same ranges of 75-300k subs/players, with sometimes peaking to more like Aion, LotrO and WoW.
Like I said, the MMO market has changed, those early advantages that those first MMO's had, of very little competition, and a growing market of people who were introduced to internet and online gaming, that situation is no more. Just like you had very fast growing companies and markets in the early years of internet or when Web 2.0 services became popular, but a far more established internet industry these days, compared with those feverish and explosive first years. The same applies to the MMO scene.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Okay as we are trying to figure out exactly what role playing means i looked up the defination of it on Merriam webster, here is what they say about role playing
Definition of ROLE-PLAY
transitive verb
1
: to act out the role of
2
: to represent in action <students were asked to role–playthe thoughts and feelings of each character — R. G. Lambert>
It's a verb so it's something you do. (not something that is)
In this case it is a person acting out a role. Doing things within that role
You can act out a role with 1 or 20 races. It's not amount of races you are acting out it's how much you can act out the races that are given.
In the themepark world, Bioware is giving us the oppertunity to act out our character within that world. INFACT i'd go so far as to say. SW;ToR in my opinion is more of a MMORPG then nearly all the other theme park ones out there. Because they don't just simply give you a character to run through the list of things to do. THey allow you to mold your character more diversely and don't always tell you...This is what you have to do and theres no way of changing it. You can give make your character arrogant, nice, mean, calm or whatever else you want.
Bioware in this sense at least in theme parks allow you to play a role much better then other games IMO.
Are more characters nice. Sure. Are VO nice? Sure. But when they are placed back to back against role playing they start to fall apart. Because one is about how the game looks while the other is a gameplay mechanic.
Vo don't let you role play your character. A much better comparision would be to ask would you rather 20 races or choices in your quests. Those two are about choices to make (hmm more races or more choices in my quests?)
Yet somehow this still manages to be a role playing game which is odd if the amount of races was suppose to be the defining factor in making it a role playing game or not.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
My main beef with VOs is that it makes it extremely difficult and expensive to change/add/modify content. It can be used well (Dragon Age:O convinced me of that), but I really dislike voiced main characters. I find it does negatively effect my role playing my various alts. SWTOR exemplifies this for me now: The wolverine-wannabee voice of the bounty hunter rules out me having anything to do with playing one. (Though maybe the female version will be less of a goober). I could probably have dealt with the dialogue if I had the ability to voice it in my imagination.
I think they specifically said that they would not be including any races that could not speak SW Basic. They didn't want to go to the extra (expensive) effort to do the other languages/voices. And really, that has to be a consideration, whether we like it or not. Expense vs what it adds to the game. That's another reason why you won't see non bipedal types, or races that otherwise stray too far from the human norm. That's too bad, but it is understandable.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
My main beef with VOs is that it makes it extremely difficult and expensive to change/add/modify content. It can be used well (Dragon Age:O convinced me of that), but I really dislike voiced main characters. I find it does negatively effect my role playing my various alts. SWTOR exemplifies this for me now: The wolverine-wannabee voice of the bounty hunter rules out me having anything to do with playing one. (Though maybe the female version will be less of a goober). I could probably have dealt with the dialogue if I had the ability to voice it in my imagination.
I think they specifically said that they would not be including any races that could not speak SW Basic. They didn't want to go to the extra (expensive) effort to do the other languages/voices. And really, that has to be a consideration, whether we like it or not. Expense vs what it adds to the game. That's another reason why you won't see non bipedal types, or races that otherwise stray too far from the human norm. That's too bad, but it is understandable.
if you watch the second video in this dev blog you can hear a fem BH speak. its only a couple lines but its better than nothing.
As far as the immersion goes, again being an MMO, hearing my character speak in a voice that's not the voice I would have chosen, and watching a lot of cutscenes isn't necessarily good for immersion. Lots of different players immersed in their characters creates immersion.
I think it's something that people have to experience for themselves, since it's different from what has been in MMO's before. Personally I think that having cinematics, cutscenes, choices in dialogues and VO will immerse (most) players more than the text-based approach to questing you find in current MMO's.
So far, people who experienced a sortlike questing in AoC liked it very much and were disappointed when questing became more the old style after the Tortage island. Also, the vast majority of people who actually played the game seemed to like SWTOR's cinematic questing, even a lot of those who were sceptical about it beforehand.
Granted as I said in my other post in this thread, it remains to be seen. However my point is that focusing immerson on the npc content is, imo, a mistake for mmo's where the focus should be on the defining characteristic of the genre: interaction between live players.
Also as far as AoC goes, voiced npc's for quests (and for the record, tortage was not universally loved, especially in an mmo where replay due to alts can make it a hated part of the game) is far different thant the constant interuption from cutscenes which bioware is known for and in my case frankly after so many years of it (been playing bioware games a looooong time) am a little bored with it. I prefer storyline to be forwarded in-game as much as possible. I found the cutscenes in DA:O to be a distraction. Thats just me, and I'm probably a minority, but again an MMO it'll be a new dynamic.
My main beef with VOs is that it makes it extremely difficult and expensive to change/add/modify content. It can be used well (Dragon Age:O convinced me of that), but I really dislike voiced main characters. I find it does negatively effect my role playing my various alts. SWTOR exemplifies this for me now: The wolverine-wannabee voice of the bounty hunter rules out me having anything to do with playing one. (Though maybe the female version will be less of a goober). I could probably have dealt with the dialogue if I had the ability to voice it in my imagination.
I think they specifically said that they would not be including any races that could not speak SW Basic. They didn't want to go to the extra (expensive) effort to do the other languages/voices. And really, that has to be a consideration, whether we like it or not. Expense vs what it adds to the game. That's another reason why you won't see non bipedal types, or races that otherwise stray too far from the human norm. That's too bad, but it is understandable.
if you watch the second video in this dev blog you can hear a fem BH speak. its only a couple lines but its better than nothing.
Thanks for the link! Yeah, I that sounded much better to me. If it's bounty hunter I go, it will be a female one. Loved the touch of the 'hurtin hand shaking' afterwards.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
My main beef with VOs is that it makes it extremely difficult and expensive to change/add/modify content. It can be used well (Dragon Age:O convinced me of that), but I really dislike voiced main characters. I find it does negatively effect my role playing my various alts. SWTOR exemplifies this for me now: The wolverine-wannabee voice of the bounty hunter rules out me having anything to do with playing one. (Though maybe the female version will be less of a goober). I could probably have dealt with the dialogue if I had the ability to voice it in my imagination.
Funny enough the male bounty hunter is voiced by Steve Blum who also did the voice of Wolverine for the Wolverine and the X-men cartoon.
If i had to choose between a handfull of fully voiced races or 20 unique races with no voices, i would choose the 20 races every time. Thats just personal preference. But both are valid mmo features.
My main beef with VOs is that it makes it extremely difficult and expensive to change/add/modify content. It can be used well (Dragon Age:O convinced me of that), but I really dislike voiced main characters. I find it does negatively effect my role playing my various alts. SWTOR exemplifies this for me now: The wolverine-wannabee voice of the bounty hunter rules out me having anything to do with playing one. (Though maybe the female version will be less of a goober). I could probably have dealt with the dialogue if I had the ability to voice it in my imagination.
Funny enough the male bounty hunter is voiced by Steve Blum who also did the voice of Wolverine for the Wolverine and the X-men cartoon.
he's also the Voice of Spike (cowboy bebop), along with many many many others on his resume.and by far one of the best voice actors out there, wich gives me hope. i was a bit worried about the quality of the voice acting they would have in TOR.
i prefer the VO than 20 races, what would the races consist of really, red humans,blue humans,purple humans, red human with tenticles on his head,green human with pointy ears ect ect. seriously MMO "races" are kind of a joke 90% are human with minor tweaks.
Comments
I must eat what is served, until someone does it right. Most developers these days sacrificed the idea of making a cool RPG for making quick bucks and keep people addicted with hilarious gameplay mechanics. It's gaming sellout. And I have LONG stopped to find this topic funny. Companies ruin games for stockholders and cheap money and masses blindly accept it. Burgers instead of cuisine. But what do you want me to do? Do knitting instead?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I thought this was about freedom and being openminded, and here you are showing the opposite. Shame on you
When I went back to SWG maybe a month ago, I think it had 10 or 12 races of which I would only ever consider 3. And some were even so silly it would ruin immersion for me if I met players like that :P But seriously, 20 races seems way over the top. That said, I'm not superpsyched about VO either but maybe SWtor will change that for me
edit: btw, how many playable races ARE there in SWtor?
Hmm, I think they're making cool MMORPG's but maybe not of the kind that you like most. Tastes differ.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Maybe you're in the wrong place if you can't accept people can view things differently. What's important to you isn't always going to be important to other people. Did the thought occur to you that RPG's are many things other than just racial selection? Character building is more than picking a race, getting lost in a new world, is a lot more than just picking a race. Maybe some folks simply like to play RPG's because they offer more than your typical FPS or action game?
Besides I really didn't see anyone say they didn't want racial selection, it was a matter of (20 races or VO?). It doesn't mean they want no racial selection at all, if they voted in favor of VO. It means more racial selection doesn't add up to a better game for them, especially in a sea of games that are exactly what the alternative to TOR is.
Open your mind, stop focusing on such (personal) absolutes.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
if it means we don't have to listen to you tell us how you know whats best for us and the genre anymore, then yes i would like that because it is getting so old.
You misunderstand. It is not about personal preferrences. It is about correct use of terms. If you make an interactive movie with action sequences instead of an RPG, selling it as "MMORPG" is lying!
It's like selling a motorbike as a car.
An RPG means to play a role. Playing a role means to have CHOICES of roles and in any classic RPG that means to have other than just ONE race, human. Yes even if Bioware calls different facepaint a different race, it's just absurd. SWTOR has only one playable race. Humans. Anyone seeing SW movies and being asked about other than human races will certainly NOT answer stuff like Miraluka or Zabrak, but Rodian, Wookiiee, Trandoshan or Twilek! Bioware is just cheating. They have only one playable race and hide that fact with Star-Trekkish facepaint and different noses and ears! It's a JOKE! And most certainly NOT a RPG.
Sorry, objectively they are doing it wrong. Thats not a matter of debateable taste, it is a matter of not understanding what an RPG is. And RPG is about races, classes and stats to chose. Like creating a D&D character. THAT is an RPG. What you are trying to do is to re-define the term RPG. What you do is like going into a church and saying it should be about porn and poker because you like that more than praying. It's not about taste, it is about understanding things.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This is just getting stupid now Elikal. One race? Not an mmorpg? I'm not gonna bother anymore...
Everyone who actually played the game, a lot of them longterm MMO fans and MMORPG reviewers confirm and emphasize that SWTOR is an MMORPG.
At least be honest with yourself, Elikal, it's just that SWTOR doesn't fit your idea of how an MMORPG should be. But it should be obvious from the earliest MMO's on, that there is no such thing as just 1 type or category of MMORPG's. Since UO and EQ and DAoC and CoH and WoW, it's obvious that there's all kinds of different MMORPG's, not only the brand that you seem to favor.
All those were MMORPG's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yes, and there is a reason why ALL MMOs launched in the last years FAILED. I could explain, but people would not listen.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think it has more to do with that the MMO market has changed, it isn't so much an emerging market anymore but one that has already been established. The very first MMO's had the luck that there was little competition with only a few MMO's around, and slowly more and more MMO gamers were introduced to internet and online gaming. Now as good as everyone has internet and is familiar or at least aware of online gaming.
As for the definition of 'failing', besides that the competition has become fiercer with hordes of MMO's on the scene, I find the term in itself pretty amusing. Quite some of those MMO's that (some) people apparently consider failing still have as many and more subs than most of the MMO's of the early years, and that even in a market that has become more competitive and crowded.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I can't say they're doing it wrong until I see the end result. I never felt KOTOR was a bad attempt at making an RPG, which it only had one race to play as, it still alowed you to build a character in the way you wanted it to play.
Your phrase confuses me, what do you mean by; I am trying to redefine what an RPG is? I did no such thing, I only said certain elements of an RPG (outside of race) may be more important to others. That's not attempting to define anything other than human nature.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Once you're done levelling your voiceless but unchangably slightly different looking character you're left doing end game content after having skipped most if not all of whatever your journey to that point was about.
Logic, there is none in your statements.
First off, races do not get excluded because of VO: they have software to animate alien faces. Secondly, money does not get thrown on a big pile where this or that feature can nibble at, it's not the way it works.
And thirdly, you're all unbelievable idiots if you really think a huge evolution in audio is meaningless as some of you seem to believe. Now that was harsh, let me word it in a better way: you have no idea what you're talking about.
If you look at history, every self respecting film connaisseur will draw a big fat line to mark the fundamental difference between silent film and spoken film. Why? Because of the huge difference in experience and because it marked a huge increase in popularity, attracting an untold amount of new viewers and giving rise to a great many new genres.
What are the elements of a typical audio track? Music, effects and ... wait for it ... dialogue. That last one has been the one missing from MMO's for years (at least in any significance), while nearly every other genre (except games that try to portray a specific kind of story & character) have incorporated it and aren't looking back. And yet here we are complaining about how useless it is to finally finally make the damn audio track complete.
Audio people, guides attention and is thus an invaluable tool for immersion in any audiovisual medium, this is not some obscure theory, this is proven fact that has been experimented and evolved upon by filmmakers and theatres and operas and orchestras and so on for who knows how long.
Again, here we are discussing how incorporating some visual elements that:
1) Cause troubles with armor models, making for difficult updates.
2) Give no significant change to gameplay.
3) Are hidden and changed to differentiate yourself by gear just the same as without 20 races.
4) Most people won't choose for anyhow because it's well known that humans are by far the most popular race in any game that offers the choice (and before we forget, TOR does offer a choice)
And we're putting this against an element that brings change to the genre (no matter whether or not your personal bias says it doesn't) and is absolutely essential for the core feature of this game which is storytelling?
Seriously?
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Amen to that!
When an actor acts is it not playing a role? Does he get a choice? No, he does not yet what he's doing is indeed roleplaying. The fact is there is more than one way to roleplay, there's sticking to a script and then there's ad libbing. The fact is we get to have more choice in our interactions with npcs in this game than any other MMO, period. It's not us who's trying to redefine what is an rpg, that's what you're doing. You're trying to pigeonhole it into being one thing and one thing only when it's not.
There is give and take in MMO development. Bioware decided to give us choice in our story and in our interaction with npcs rather than having a lot of races, which in all fairness to Bioware can be added anytime. Not only do we get a choice in story within a class but there are eight class stories to choose from. You want choice? There's your choice. It might not be the choices you wanted, but it fits my desire quite well. Now why don't you just go back to knitting or perhaps start following WOD. Oh, wait...WOD has only one race so far, human vampires. I guess you're just out of luck.
Really name for me all the MMO's released in the Western market since 2005 that have more subscribers than most of the early MMO's...
In fact besides Rift name how many MMO's in the western market released since 2005... have more than 4 servers in North America...
I'll go out on a limb here and say pretty much besides any MMO that is still under a year old. There is not one MMO released since World of Warcraft in a non asian market that has more subscribers than any of those early MMO's.. well maybe more than Anarchy Online peaked at...
Once the games released more currently (dcuo/Rift) hit a year of live time... Let's see how well they are doing.
The problem here is the fact that games like UO and EQ did not hit their peaks at release or even during the first year of release. Contrary to popular belief UO actually hit its peak subscriber numbers after Trammel (its documented various places aka interviews with people that worked on the game and at least one interview with the CEO of EA) and EQ I am not sure when its peak was hit but it was after the first year.
How many "newer" MMO's that people claim have failed.. are growing? As opposed to having hit their peak population either in under a year or in the first month or two of being "live"...
I agree with the first half of your comment. The second half I don't agree with. The other thing you are forgetting is that with the much higher cost of production these games are making far less profit than those early MMO's did.. even if they have the same level of subscribers. Which guess what that means from a company perspective.. the people that paid to create the game.. it would pretty much mean... the game failed.
Those early MMO's, only EQ scored above 300k subs, in the West. If you include the East, then you'd have FFXI as well.
The rest hovered in the range of 50-250k subs.
As for the post-2005 MMO's, they've been hovering in the same ranges of 75-300k subs/players, with sometimes peaking to more like Aion, LotrO and WoW.
Like I said, the MMO market has changed, those early advantages that those first MMO's had, of very little competition, and a growing market of people who were introduced to internet and online gaming, that situation is no more. Just like you had very fast growing companies and markets in the early years of internet or when Web 2.0 services became popular, but a far more established internet industry these days, compared with those feverish and explosive first years. The same applies to the MMO scene.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Okay as we are trying to figure out exactly what role playing means i looked up the defination of it on Merriam webster, here is what they say about role playing
Definition of ROLE-PLAY
transitive verb
1
: to act out the role of
2
: to represent in action <students were asked to role–playthe thoughts and feelings of each character — R. G. Lambert>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/verb?show=0&t=1306967142
It's a verb so it's something you do. (not something that is)
In this case it is a person acting out a role. Doing things within that role
You can act out a role with 1 or 20 races. It's not amount of races you are acting out it's how much you can act out the races that are given.
In the themepark world, Bioware is giving us the oppertunity to act out our character within that world. INFACT i'd go so far as to say. SW;ToR in my opinion is more of a MMORPG then nearly all the other theme park ones out there. Because they don't just simply give you a character to run through the list of things to do. THey allow you to mold your character more diversely and don't always tell you...This is what you have to do and theres no way of changing it. You can give make your character arrogant, nice, mean, calm or whatever else you want.
Bioware in this sense at least in theme parks allow you to play a role much better then other games IMO.
Are more characters nice. Sure. Are VO nice? Sure. But when they are placed back to back against role playing they start to fall apart. Because one is about how the game looks while the other is a gameplay mechanic.
Vo don't let you role play your character. A much better comparision would be to ask would you rather 20 races or choices in your quests. Those two are about choices to make (hmm more races or more choices in my quests?)
Edit: Found this:
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings is a role-playing video game and a sequel to The Witcher
In the witcher you play 1 guy.
You are forced to be male
You are forced to be human type character
I'm pretty sure he has a predefined voice
Yet somehow this still manages to be a role playing game which is odd if the amount of races was suppose to be the defining factor in making it a role playing game or not.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
My main beef with VOs is that it makes it extremely difficult and expensive to change/add/modify content. It can be used well (Dragon Age:O convinced me of that), but I really dislike voiced main characters. I find it does negatively effect my role playing my various alts. SWTOR exemplifies this for me now: The wolverine-wannabee voice of the bounty hunter rules out me having anything to do with playing one. (Though maybe the female version will be less of a goober). I could probably have dealt with the dialogue if I had the ability to voice it in my imagination.
I think they specifically said that they would not be including any races that could not speak SW Basic. They didn't want to go to the extra (expensive) effort to do the other languages/voices. And really, that has to be a consideration, whether we like it or not. Expense vs what it adds to the game. That's another reason why you won't see non bipedal types, or races that otherwise stray too far from the human norm. That's too bad, but it is understandable.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
if you watch the second video in this dev blog you can hear a fem BH speak. its only a couple lines but its better than nothing.
http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20101231
Granted as I said in my other post in this thread, it remains to be seen. However my point is that focusing immerson on the npc content is, imo, a mistake for mmo's where the focus should be on the defining characteristic of the genre: interaction between live players.
Also as far as AoC goes, voiced npc's for quests (and for the record, tortage was not universally loved, especially in an mmo where replay due to alts can make it a hated part of the game) is far different thant the constant interuption from cutscenes which bioware is known for and in my case frankly after so many years of it (been playing bioware games a looooong time) am a little bored with it. I prefer storyline to be forwarded in-game as much as possible. I found the cutscenes in DA:O to be a distraction. Thats just me, and I'm probably a minority, but again an MMO it'll be a new dynamic.
Thanks for the link! Yeah, I that sounded much better to me. If it's bounty hunter I go, it will be a female one. Loved the touch of the 'hurtin hand shaking' afterwards.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Funny enough the male bounty hunter is voiced by Steve Blum who also did the voice of Wolverine for the Wolverine and the X-men cartoon.
If i had to choose between a handfull of fully voiced races or 20 unique races with no voices, i would choose the 20 races every time. Thats just personal preference. But both are valid mmo features.
he's also the Voice of Spike (cowboy bebop), along with many many many others on his resume.and by far one of the best voice actors out there, wich gives me hope. i was a bit worried about the quality of the voice acting they would have in TOR.
i prefer the VO than 20 races, what would the races consist of really, red humans,blue humans,purple humans, red human with tenticles on his head,green human with pointy ears ect ect. seriously MMO "races" are kind of a joke 90% are human with minor tweaks.