You guys are blaming indie developers for not putting out high quality sandbox MMORPGs?
For one, they lack the manpower and resources from a larger company. That is a huge hit in itself. They simply lack the means and possibly proficiency on making a "AAA" sandbox title.
Lastly, consider also that the larger companies are always chasing the WoW model. They lack the balls to do anything different. After 7 years of WoW's success, they still haven't figured it out and are still chasing their tails around.
The entire MMORPG genre itself is stagnant, and that is killing many things including a AAA sandbox title.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Recently i got Minecraft gifted and have a hell of a fun with that game. It shows that a good idea can overcome graphic and that sometimes gamemechanics rule. Also its mostly very well thought out and doesnt make you shake your head about it. Playing it with some friends right now... If the statement is right that it was sold above 2 millions that shows clearly that there is a market for a games like this and imo is THIS exactly the core of a sandbox game.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
the problem is not the indie-developer. the anxious managers and investors of AAA-games are ruining this genre these days. they are much more dangerous.
indie game companies are the only ones who make theme parks and its only gonna get worse get used to it, don't like easy mmo's too bad its only gonna get worse , untill either a AAA company makes something that is not a wow knock off that sells , or that is not a lets make MMO's that are easy mode that sells the trend shall continue.
basically OP your mad at indie developers for doing the best they can with their budget and mad at mainstream companies for making money.....
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
someone has to make sandbox games, if giant money whoring companies wont do it, all is left is small poor indie companies
on the other hand, their games are not worth "market price" thus can't make enough money to make it viable.
True. But people who want an indie sandbox game need to spend money to make they viable. To act as patrons of their claimed love for sandbox games.
that's the problem... i mean if i could (if i had millions just sitting in my bank account not doing anything) i would probably invest in an indie company... but sadly i dont and so do 99% of the population, even less those who like video games, and even less who enjoy true sandbox and again EVEN LESS who are ready to risk loosing all that money.
like i said in another thread in the vangard section, they are saying we need to show interest for sony to put ressources in the game... thats not how life works and thats why vanguard is hanging by a string, it is up to the companies to put ressources to attract costumers, not the other way around...
but it is true that in the case of indie companies its a double edged sword. people who have ressources are afraid of losing it, and the fact remains, even though sandbox style is a much better gaming philosophy, it is only aimed at real gamers who like a challenge and complexity in their games (like me) but thats only a hand full of people (relatively speaking) compared to the millions who want to play a game they can turn on hack slash a few things and turn it off without having to think to much
in this world there are true gamers and there are people who just want to play games (and you also have the crazy koreans who play competitively)
people who just want to play games are far more numerous than true gamers... this is why sandbox games are not common and the MMO market is flodded by easy meat grinders lacking any complexity in their games (which is fine since thats what the majority wants)
in my opinion (my own opinion) MMOs should not cater to players, instead players should cater to MMOs. i believe that MMOs went in the wrong direction simply because of MONEY. MMOS are made (orignially in MUDS and Ultima and EQ) to be played with people, things could not be done solo, you needed friends, allies parties to do stuff it was hard and thats how it should have remained. solo players, go play oblivion or something and have an IM in th ebackground to talk to people.
It's one of those things I think to myself all the time, If I win the lottery this week, im gona start my own company and make the sand box mmo that I have been waiting on for so long.
But I never win so
As for the indie studio's killing sandbox gaming, I dont agree, sure some of them miss the target, look at darkfall brilliant idea poor execution, but even in saying that you still have to take your hat off to them for giving it a shot, and being able to provide a format for players to create their own stories and world, which is still making them money so it cant be as bad as people claim.
Then look at mine craft, ok, not the graphical wonder we would like but its clearly doing something right, namely being a sandbox that players can do what ever they want in, then there is the 2D version from a different developer but same sorta concept, let the players do what they want.
What we need, is not less indie developers , what we need are more of them to hit their target, we need more mine crafts, we need more darkfalls without the bugs, we need more EvE's, not less indie studios but more.
When the players find something to get behind and support with their own money by paying for subscriptions then tripple A developers will be forced to take notice, EvE has made a number of them sit up and take notice already, but its already a neiche game because of its setting, had EvE been a fantasy game with the same rule set, I think their subscription numbers would be more in line with what wow has now.
You only need to look at the communities not only here but all over the net and you see forums filled with mmo fans screaming out for games with a bit more depth, more control, more well JUST MORE!.
sure some poeple dont like open FFA PvP, but thats not the be all and end all of Sand Box gaming, and like EvE and its low and high sec space, a single game can offer both to it's players.
AAA Developers are blocked by release dates, and scheduals they need to stick to, in the end it means a lot of cool stuff we would have loved gets dropped to save time during development, we need some developers with the balls and backing to just say "You know what, were not cutting anything, its all going in".
Currently my HOPE!. is resting square on the shoulders of Archeage, which so far is ticking almost all of my sand box (box's)
The MMO industry is a mess right now. Innovative developers don't have enough funding, and well-funded developers don't have any innovation.
I like a pretty, polished, finished MMO that is bug free and fresh out of beta as much as anyone does. And three weeks later, I'm bored silly and regretting my purchase. Leveling is the same old same old boring kill X of Y, pvp is a monotonous joke, crafting is pointless and solely focused on combat related items, and housing is non-existent.
It's not the indie devs who are churning out failure, it's the mainstream devs, only they get some money out of their failure even so, because they have a slick marketing budget and pretty boxes on store shelves to lure in the foolish and unwary.
If Xsyon had had Rift's financial backing, what an incredible gem it would be right now!
Instead all that money went into another themepark. And that's where the money will keep going. If profits from that pretty fifty dollar collector's edition box, plus the optimists who buy six month subs, plus the hangers on who stick around and keep paying for a month or two after they're bored already and quit playing equals even a little more than cost of development, investors will keep themepark devs in business.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
...as opposed to the the crappy megacorps releasing crappy buggy sanbox titles?? I would have to say the PC scene would be relatively dead without indie companies shaking it up.
If there were no indie developers in single and MMo gaming, we would have Rift 200, we would have Battlefield 19, We would have Age of Empire 25 ect.
You see the indie studios keeping the industry alive by trying to innovate and play with new features that the main studios don't dare to try.
These so called AAA studios, have they advanced the genre?
No not really they keep throwing out trash, calling in AAA, next gen, bla bla bla, In reallity it's the same game we all have played just in a different skin, we play the first month maby the second and then the game is on life support, i can give you some AAA MMO that fail despite huge amount of fund and manpower.
WAR, AoC, STO, Aion,Rift.
So we really need indie games some are crap others are really good despite the bugs but it is a breeze of fresh air, It getting hard to breath sometimes from the stinking clone cloud of these so called AAA MMOs.
One of these days we will see a AAA sandbox game just because themepark MMO is getting watered down and gamers screaming for something new, they are fed up with same ol same ol, we need freash air and experience something different.
It is great that there are indie developers. A few of them actually make it pretty big as well. CCP is still more or less a indie company and both Blizzard and Arenanet started out as small indie companies.
Sure, 99% of the games they make is crap but once in a while do we get a nice game and the indie devs gets experienced. Most of them are actually driven gamers with a lot of potential.
No, what really kills the genre are greedy giant publishers like EA and Activision. They always prefer to bet on the safe cards.
The reason that computer games evolved so much in the 80s and early 90s is because so many small indie developers made fun games, even EA and Activision started out making fun indie games (really).
This doesn't mean that you should play crappy game no matter who made them, but indie developers are important for gaming.
Personally I'd like to see sanboxes extend themselves further than stripped down themepark worlds with FFA PVP and full loot tacked on. I think there needs to be more to do than making war and defending.
I think it's more that we are actually labelling those thing as sandboxes when they're really just incomplete games, lacking scripted themepark entertainment and devoid of tools to manage or manipulate the game world. Several of the games that have been mislabelled as sandboxes are simply 3D combat sims with a progression grind.
I agree with this.
IMO, the most important feature of a "sandbox" is the ability to manipulate the game world.
What difference does being able whack every player in the game and loot their stuff make to the game world? Almost none.
Yet that seems to be what most are calling a "sandbox".
if you add FFA PvP and looting, suddenly it's a "sandbox".
no it's not.
It's usually crappy game with horrible PvE, and FFA PvP and looting.
And on top of that, the "use it to improve it" system, that leads to macros and doing things like whacking trees all day to grind up your "skillz" just makes it worse.
What's "sandbox" about whacking a tree all day to grind up your skills?
I'm telling you, the mmorpg needs a renovation like 2d went to 3d. And that's how we rely so much on engine developers to make this happen. And of course a lot of innovation from the developers. More ideas.
Comments
You guys are blaming indie developers for not putting out high quality sandbox MMORPGs?
For one, they lack the manpower and resources from a larger company. That is a huge hit in itself. They simply lack the means and possibly proficiency on making a "AAA" sandbox title.
Lastly, consider also that the larger companies are always chasing the WoW model. They lack the balls to do anything different. After 7 years of WoW's success, they still haven't figured it out and are still chasing their tails around.
The entire MMORPG genre itself is stagnant, and that is killing many things including a AAA sandbox title.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Recently i got Minecraft gifted and have a hell of a fun with that game.
It shows that a good idea can overcome graphic and that sometimes gamemechanics rule.
Also its mostly very well thought out and doesnt make you shake your head about it.
Playing it with some friends right now...
If the statement is right that it was sold above 2 millions that shows clearly that there is a market for a games like this and imo is THIS exactly the core of a sandbox game.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
the problem is not the indie-developer. the anxious managers and investors of AAA-games are ruining this genre these days. they are much more dangerous.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
indie game companies are the only ones who make theme parks and its only gonna get worse get used to it, don't like easy mmo's too bad its only gonna get worse , untill either a AAA company makes something that is not a wow knock off that sells , or that is not a lets make MMO's that are easy mode that sells the trend shall continue.
basically OP your mad at indie developers for doing the best they can with their budget and mad at mainstream companies for making money.....
read the first few posts,
i only have an answer to that
someone has to make sandbox games, if giant money whoring companies wont do it, all is left is small poor indie companies
on the other hand, their games are not worth "market price" thus can't make enough money to make it viable.
True. But people who want an indie sandbox game need to spend money to make they viable. To act as patrons of their claimed love for sandbox games.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
that's the problem... i mean if i could (if i had millions just sitting in my bank account not doing anything) i would probably invest in an indie company... but sadly i dont and so do 99% of the population, even less those who like video games, and even less who enjoy true sandbox and again EVEN LESS who are ready to risk loosing all that money.
like i said in another thread in the vangard section, they are saying we need to show interest for sony to put ressources in the game... thats not how life works and thats why vanguard is hanging by a string, it is up to the companies to put ressources to attract costumers, not the other way around...
but it is true that in the case of indie companies its a double edged sword. people who have ressources are afraid of losing it, and the fact remains, even though sandbox style is a much better gaming philosophy, it is only aimed at real gamers who like a challenge and complexity in their games (like me) but thats only a hand full of people (relatively speaking) compared to the millions who want to play a game they can turn on hack slash a few things and turn it off without having to think to much
in this world there are true gamers and there are people who just want to play games (and you also have the crazy koreans who play competitively)
people who just want to play games are far more numerous than true gamers... this is why sandbox games are not common and the MMO market is flodded by easy meat grinders lacking any complexity in their games (which is fine since thats what the majority wants)
in my opinion (my own opinion) MMOs should not cater to players, instead players should cater to MMOs. i believe that MMOs went in the wrong direction simply because of MONEY. MMOS are made (orignially in MUDS and Ultima and EQ) to be played with people, things could not be done solo, you needed friends, allies parties to do stuff it was hard and thats how it should have remained. solo players, go play oblivion or something and have an IM in th ebackground to talk to people.
It's one of those things I think to myself all the time, If I win the lottery this week, im gona start my own company and make the sand box mmo that I have been waiting on for so long.
But I never win so
As for the indie studio's killing sandbox gaming, I dont agree, sure some of them miss the target, look at darkfall brilliant idea poor execution, but even in saying that you still have to take your hat off to them for giving it a shot, and being able to provide a format for players to create their own stories and world, which is still making them money so it cant be as bad as people claim.
Then look at mine craft, ok, not the graphical wonder we would like but its clearly doing something right, namely being a sandbox that players can do what ever they want in, then there is the 2D version from a different developer but same sorta concept, let the players do what they want.
What we need, is not less indie developers , what we need are more of them to hit their target, we need more mine crafts, we need more darkfalls without the bugs, we need more EvE's, not less indie studios but more.
When the players find something to get behind and support with their own money by paying for subscriptions then tripple A developers will be forced to take notice, EvE has made a number of them sit up and take notice already, but its already a neiche game because of its setting, had EvE been a fantasy game with the same rule set, I think their subscription numbers would be more in line with what wow has now.
You only need to look at the communities not only here but all over the net and you see forums filled with mmo fans screaming out for games with a bit more depth, more control, more well JUST MORE!.
sure some poeple dont like open FFA PvP, but thats not the be all and end all of Sand Box gaming, and like EvE and its low and high sec space, a single game can offer both to it's players.
AAA Developers are blocked by release dates, and scheduals they need to stick to, in the end it means a lot of cool stuff we would have loved gets dropped to save time during development, we need some developers with the balls and backing to just say "You know what, were not cutting anything, its all going in".
Currently my HOPE!. is resting square on the shoulders of Archeage, which so far is ticking almost all of my sand box (box's)
The MMO industry is a mess right now. Innovative developers don't have enough funding, and well-funded developers don't have any innovation.
I like a pretty, polished, finished MMO that is bug free and fresh out of beta as much as anyone does. And three weeks later, I'm bored silly and regretting my purchase. Leveling is the same old same old boring kill X of Y, pvp is a monotonous joke, crafting is pointless and solely focused on combat related items, and housing is non-existent.
It's not the indie devs who are churning out failure, it's the mainstream devs, only they get some money out of their failure even so, because they have a slick marketing budget and pretty boxes on store shelves to lure in the foolish and unwary.
If Xsyon had had Rift's financial backing, what an incredible gem it would be right now!
Instead all that money went into another themepark. And that's where the money will keep going. If profits from that pretty fifty dollar collector's edition box, plus the optimists who buy six month subs, plus the hangers on who stick around and keep paying for a month or two after they're bored already and quit playing equals even a little more than cost of development, investors will keep themepark devs in business.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Its the triple A companys who make crappy games not indie with small butgets i say they make the best games compare to blizzard bioware soe ncsoft.
...as opposed to the the crappy megacorps releasing crappy buggy sanbox titles?? I would have to say the PC scene would be relatively dead without indie companies shaking it up.
Archlinux ftw
OP a bit narrowminded are we?
If there were no indie developers in single and MMo gaming, we would have Rift 200, we would have Battlefield 19, We would have Age of Empire 25 ect.
You see the indie studios keeping the industry alive by trying to innovate and play with new features that the main studios don't dare to try.
These so called AAA studios, have they advanced the genre?
No not really they keep throwing out trash, calling in AAA, next gen, bla bla bla, In reallity it's the same game we all have played just in a different skin, we play the first month maby the second and then the game is on life support, i can give you some AAA MMO that fail despite huge amount of fund and manpower.
WAR, AoC, STO, Aion,Rift.
So we really need indie games some are crap others are really good despite the bugs but it is a breeze of fresh air, It getting hard to breath sometimes from the stinking clone cloud of these so called AAA MMOs.
One of these days we will see a AAA sandbox game just because themepark MMO is getting watered down and gamers screaming for something new, they are fed up with same ol same ol, we need freash air and experience something different.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
"Crappy" indie developers are single handedly keeping sandboxes and innovation in the genre alive. Be thankful they are still here.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It is great that there are indie developers. A few of them actually make it pretty big as well. CCP is still more or less a indie company and both Blizzard and Arenanet started out as small indie companies.
Sure, 99% of the games they make is crap but once in a while do we get a nice game and the indie devs gets experienced. Most of them are actually driven gamers with a lot of potential.
No, what really kills the genre are greedy giant publishers like EA and Activision. They always prefer to bet on the safe cards.
The reason that computer games evolved so much in the 80s and early 90s is because so many small indie developers made fun games, even EA and Activision started out making fun indie games (really).
This doesn't mean that you should play crappy game no matter who made them, but indie developers are important for gaming.
I agree with this.
IMO, the most important feature of a "sandbox" is the ability to manipulate the game world.
What difference does being able whack every player in the game and loot their stuff make to the game world? Almost none.
Yet that seems to be what most are calling a "sandbox".
if you add FFA PvP and looting, suddenly it's a "sandbox".
no it's not.
It's usually crappy game with horrible PvE, and FFA PvP and looting.
And on top of that, the "use it to improve it" system, that leads to macros and doing things like whacking trees all day to grind up your "skillz" just makes it worse.
What's "sandbox" about whacking a tree all day to grind up your skills?
I'm telling you, the mmorpg needs a renovation like 2d went to 3d. And that's how we rely so much on engine developers to make this happen. And of course a lot of innovation from the developers. More ideas.
Get back to note sticking your wall.