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if you take a sandbox world and add tons of contents, it becomes a themepark
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If it's successful more will quickly follow, and more and more lines will be blurred between the two sub-genres.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You're totally right. Modern technology IS the problem. if only we could go back to 1998 when the technology existed to create a good sandbox game!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
It's a choice if you like the side-activity. If both activities are disliked it is not really a fun choice and then you are more likely to exercise the big choice of 'play on or quit'.
I totally agree regading the sandbox genre. It can and should have far far more activities, the problem is the ones that are offered don't.
In Ryzom all the crafting is exactly the same, all the gathering is exactly the same, all the melle fighting is exactly the same and all the magic is exactly the same. There are no differences. Even in WoW gathering leather is very different from mining, and the way a rogue fights is very different from a paladin. Those differences in styles don't exist in Ryzom, they are the exact same. Not to mention that Ryzom has what 4 styles of heavy armor, 4of medium and 4 of light? So not only are the actions, the same, the gameplay the same but the armor is the same now too. Yes they can have different stats - and that is the one redeeming part of the game IMO.
You could argue that and you would be right at end game. However during the leveling process your would be wrong. My Leatherworker can make armor that is signifcantly better than most of the drops at his level (65) and is quite sought after.
Give me a game where the crafting, building, and gathering is as varied as Istaria and the fighting is as varied as Wow. Don't give me a game with 75 different names for crafting/gathering and no real difference in them.
Venge
edit - I shudder every time I remember how many months I spent in the desert digging thos shells, or resins for tools, than again for jewels, than again for armor, then again, for weapons, then again for those magic glove thingies (can't remember the name). God that got boring.
Blarg, people are so confused on this sanbox vs. themepark debate.
Seriously, It comes down to this....
Viable options for character progression:
WoW - Quest, PVE, or PVP (I don't think you get XP from crafting)
EVE - Quest, PVE, PVP, Harvest, Diplomacy, Crafting/Building, Trading, Transporting, Bounty Hunting, Pirating, Policing, Accounting, Waging War, and on and on and on.....
See the difference? It's all about viable player roles in the world creating a community and an economy.
I think you can simplify it even further than this:
Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy, the end of the game is irrelevant.
Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability. The end of the game is relevant.
Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this. A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
You do get xp from harvesting, actually you can read on these forums how a guy made it to 85 doing just that.
So really
WoW - Quest, PVE, PVP, crafting ,harvesting, travel, BG (PVP), Arena (PVP), Dungeon (PVE) and probably a few more.
EVE - Quest, PVE, PVP, harvest, dip, craft/build, tradeing, transport (travel), bounty (PVP), Pirate (PVP), Police (PVP), account, waging war (PVP)...
So the differences get smaller and smaller.
Venge
edit - @bladestrom - thats not a bad explanation. A sandbox needs a more stable and interactive community, whereas a themepark does not. I don't really agree on the end game part. In a real sandbox there is none, in a themepark we call it eng-game when the levels are done but there are still a buttload of activities to do.
It doesn't matter when you can't be a dedicated harvester or crafter. Most sandboxes present these activites as viable options and not as side activites. Big difference.
Are you seriously not aware of the differences between a sandbox MMO like EVE and a themepark MMO like WoW? I mean, are you seriously making the case that they're both roughly the same in gameplay and features and that WoW is as good a sandbox as EVE (or UO or SWG for that matter) is??
Wow...
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I consider a sandbox only when the content is created by the players. Build your own fortress, build your own town. Each restriction detracts from the experience. It's supposed to be another world, not a world created by developers. It is your world to see and create.
Minecraft is the closest thing to it, and that was made by one developer. Now get a team of 20-30 developers, a decent game engine and player side building tools and systems and we have an opportunity!
Cool then to help resolve the differentation between the 2 you can say:
Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy.
Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability.
Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this. End game may or may not be relevant. A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers. And based on this adding extra stuff to either type of game does not change its format as long as the core is maintained. re OP.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
To me the closest things we have to a sand box are Wurm Online, Xyson, and Minecraft.
I look at Eve as a Sandpark not a sand box... you still have tons of bases or cities what ever you call them that are created by the devs along with quest.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
I'm perfectly aware of the differences and that you think the differences are big. I don't believe they very big or very numerous. And not I did not make any claim that they are the same or roughly the same. I did say the differences are getting smaller.
Venge
edit - Bladestrom - yes. Pretty much agree
Not really because in turn you're saying a themepark based game couldn't allow any of that and remain a themepark. It very much could, it could even sport a decent attempt at a player economy.
The big difference boils down to having an effect on the world. With the above example you're basically pointing out the sim aspects of EVE, which it shares with many games in the space sim genre.
A sandbox in it's plainest form is a game that allows you to build as well as offers you tools to build with. Nothing mroe nothing less.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's all a matter of perspective. Compared to Second Life and Minecraft the range of player tooling and freedom in sandbox MMORPG's is smaller, but compared to themepark MMO's the player tooling and options for player generated content and environments is larger.
Even with the features added to WoW, I don't see WoW getting more of a sandbox MMO, all the features are firmly in the 'dev provided content' corner where there's little emergent player content and gameplay happening.
Players don't change the world other players are walking around in. You don't see player towns or cities arise anywhere in Azeroth, nor player agriculture. The economy is one where player crafted items play a far lesser role than quest and raid gear.
That btw also applies to other themepark MMO's.
The best example so far of an MMORPG containing both sandbox and themepark features and be a hybrid MMO that's somewhere in the middle is ArcheAge from what could be seen so far.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
And yet many consider EQ to be sandbox despite not being able to do anything of the things you mentioned and IMO WoW offeres more choice than that.
Venge
Fallen earth is a pretty hybrid IMO.
Please use this thread here to continue your discussion.
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