So in order to stay competetive in PVP, would crafter armor be a just as good replacement as any?
They have said PvP gear will be 10% better for PvP than it's equivalent crafting/raiding gear.
That's actually good I think. I think I might like TOR's PVP. So we'd be able to get PVP gears as we play more and more PVP matches I assume? Eatch math we'd get PVP armor tokens?
So in order to stay competetive in PVP, would crafter armor be a just as good replacement as any?
They have said PvP gear will be 10% better for PvP than it's equivalent crafting/raiding gear.
That's actually good I think. I think I might like TOR's PVP. So we'd be able to get PVP gears as we play more and more PVP matches I assume? Eatch math we'd get PVP armor tokens?
You can receive at least four different rewards for PvP: Valor, Tokens, Experience, and Credits.
Valor is tracked like social points. Your Valor level supplies additional titles and other prestigious privileges (i.e. within a Warzone players with the highest Valor are the party leaders, can mark targets, etc).
Tokens are physical items that can be redeemed for stims and medkits within Warzones, or accumulated to buy PvP-specific gear and trinkets.
Originally posted by Teala It's a themepark, of course you'll grind - alot!
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So in order to stay competetive in PVP, would crafter armor be a just as good replacement as any?
They have said PvP gear will be 10% better for PvP than it's equivalent crafting/raiding gear.
That's actually good I think. I think I might like TOR's PVP. So we'd be able to get PVP gears as we play more and more PVP matches I assume? Eatch math we'd get PVP armor tokens?
You can receive at least four different rewards for PvP: Valor, Tokens, Experience, and Credits.
Valor is tracked like social points. Your Valor level supplies additional titles and other prestigious privileges (i.e. within a Warzone players with the highest Valor are the party leaders, can mark targets, etc).
Tokens are physical items that can be redeemed for stims and medkits within Warzones, or accumulated to buy PvP-specific gear and trinkets.
On top of that PvP gear can be crafted too, so while you will gain tokens for gear as well, you don't need that gear to stay competitive. While top tier PvP gear will give a 10% boost over PvE equivelants, player crafted PvP gear might give you an 8% boost or something like that, so for those not interested in "grind" for tokens but still want great PvP gear you have more than just one way to get it.
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
In short: No.
But apparantly this is the kind of answer that earns you the title of "Spotlight Poster". lol What a fucking joke.
Daniel Erickson has said you can quest your way to max level you won't ever have to grind. However with that being said questing is really disguised grinnding so if you consider doing quests grinding then ya your gonna grind. I really hope people are not using flashpoints being repeatable as evidence of grinding since one its optional, and two danial erickson was opposed to flashpoints being repeatable in fact completely opposed to it, the only reason they are repeatable is based on overwhelming feedback from game testers saying we want to repeat flashpoints.
So frankly this discussion seems a bit odd to me since on some level questing is just incentivised grinding that until a completely new system is come up with , that none of us have thought up yet we are stuck with some level of grinnding. But as compared to actual grindy MMO's where it takes forever to reach max level and you have very little quests you just go kill X amount of some mob for hours at a time. My expectation is this will be one the least grindy MMO most of us have played , and we really have nothing to complain about on this issue.......in short why are we even talking about this
So in order to stay competetive in PVP, would crafter armor be a just as good replacement as any?
They have said PvP gear will be 10% better for PvP than it's equivalent crafting/raiding gear.
That's actually good I think. I think I might like TOR's PVP. So we'd be able to get PVP gears as we play more and more PVP matches I assume? Eatch math we'd get PVP armor tokens?
You can receive at least four different rewards for PvP: Valor, Tokens, Experience, and Credits.
Valor is tracked like social points. Your Valor level supplies additional titles and other prestigious privileges (i.e. within a Warzone players with the highest Valor are the party leaders, can mark targets, etc).
Tokens are physical items that can be redeemed for stims and medkits within Warzones, or accumulated to buy PvP-specific gear and trinkets.
On top of that PvP gear can be crafted too, so while you will gain tokens for gear as well, you don't need that gear to stay competitive. While top tier PvP gear will give a 10% boost over PvE equivelants, player crafted PvP gear might give you an 8% boost or something like that, so for those not interested in "grind" for tokens but still want great PvP gear you have more than just one way to get it.
Oh, I did not know you could craft PvP gear as well. Good news!
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
And we all know how well SWG and Planetside is doing now, don't we. I can't speak to EvE because honestly, I don't find it the least bit fun at all.
TOR may have many themepark elements but it plays to some very fantastic strengths, for one, no repeated story content between classes, multiple decisions through playthroughs and next to no "grind" throughout the game so you don't have to power level to get to the "fun", and don't have to continually repeat content just to "compete".
There was a time when Raids and PvP were fun, but developers over emphasized the necessity of gear and people broke them down into spreadsheets and DPS meters and made it a job instead of entertainment. You'll likely see some guilds trying to break it down like that on SWTOR, but the game is going to cater much more to the enjoyment of the player in my opinion, simply because it doesn't hinge around always having the exact right combinaation of players all the time, and they don't emphasize gear to be the end all be all of skill.
technically they can't make you do anything, you choose what you want to do based on what you want out of a game. if what you want involves grinding then you choose to do that. however its impossible to tell at this point if they will be setup so you continuously have to run them like in other games. and it is unlikely we will know this until either open beta or release
lol, just like mice in a maze dont have to run it to get the cheese?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
And we all know how well SWG and Planetside is doing now, don't we. I can't speak to EvE because honestly, I don't find it the least bit fun at all.
TOR may have many themepark elements but it plays to some very fantastic strengths, for one, no repeated story content between classes, multiple decisions through playthroughs and next to no "grind" throughout the game so you don't have to power level to get to the "fun", and don't have to continually repeat content just to "compete".
There was a time when Raids and PvP were fun, but developers over emphasized the necessity of gear and people broke them down into spreadsheets and DPS meters and made it a job instead of entertainment. You'll likely see some guilds trying to break it down like that on SWTOR, but the game is going to cater much more to the enjoyment of the player in my opinion, simply because it doesn't hinge around always having the exact right combinaation of players all the time, and they don't emphasize gear to be the end all be all of skill.
thats not entirely true. while class stories will be completely different, the classes will share things like world arc stories within their respective factions. however there will be no repeated story content between factions
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
And we all know how well SWG and Planetside is doing now, don't we. I can't speak to EvE because honestly, I don't find it the least bit fun at all.
TOR may have many themepark elements but it plays to some very fantastic strengths, for one, no repeated story content between classes, multiple decisions through playthroughs and next to no "grind" throughout the game so you don't have to power level to get to the "fun", and don't have to continually repeat content just to "compete".
There was a time when Raids and PvP were fun, but developers over emphasized the necessity of gear and people broke them down into spreadsheets and DPS meters and made it a job instead of entertainment. You'll likely see some guilds trying to break it down like that on SWTOR, but the game is going to cater much more to the enjoyment of the player in my opinion, simply because it doesn't hinge around always having the exact right combinaation of players all the time, and they don't emphasize gear to be the end all be all of skill.
Oh don't even go there. Most players know why SWG-preNGE failed and players that played Planetside know why it failed. So please...I was using them as examples of how they once were - grindless.
As for TOR. Only time will tell, but from my knowledge of the game. it is just WoW dressed up like Star Wars..
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
And we all know how well SWG and Planetside is doing now, don't we. I can't speak to EvE because honestly, I don't find it the least bit fun at all.
TOR may have many themepark elements but it plays to some very fantastic strengths, for one, no repeated story content between classes, multiple decisions through playthroughs and next to no "grind" throughout the game so you don't have to power level to get to the "fun", and don't have to continually repeat content just to "compete".
There was a time when Raids and PvP were fun, but developers over emphasized the necessity of gear and people broke them down into spreadsheets and DPS meters and made it a job instead of entertainment. You'll likely see some guilds trying to break it down like that on SWTOR, but the game is going to cater much more to the enjoyment of the player in my opinion, simply because it doesn't hinge around always having the exact right combinaation of players all the time, and they don't emphasize gear to be the end all be all of skill.
Oh don't even go there. Most players know why SWG-preNGE failed and players that played Planetside know why it failed. So please...I was using them as examples of how they once were - grindless.
As for TOR. Only time will tell, but from my knowledge of the game. it is just WoW dressed up like Star Wars..
And your knowledge is very limited so trying to take an honest conclusion of how much "grind" this game would have from you would be like me trying to explain how much "grind" EvE has. I don't play EvE and don't follow it so I won't even try to speak to it.
SWG failed on many levels throughout every change they did, and I was there and played through all of them, planetside was never really a great game either. A game without "grind" doesn't make that game suddenly good. At the end of the day we can reminisce about how great games were back then, but there was a reason why they changed, and a reason why they are where they are today and other games are where they are today.
That being said, the focus of where SWTOR is going does differ quite a bit from the traditional WoW gear grind mentality, as does the process of leveling, crafting, and pretty much most aspects of the game. It won't snuff out grind completely for those who have the incessant need to grind, but it absolutely will not be forced.
TOR may have many themepark elements but it plays to some very fantastic strengths, for one, no repeated story content between classes, multiple decisions through playthroughs and next to no "grind" throughout the game so you don't have to power level to get to the "fun", and don't have to continually repeat content just to "compete".
thats not entirely true. while class stories will be completely different, the classes will share things like world arc stories within their respective factions. however there will be no repeated story content between factions
Thats what I meant, the classes will all have different stories, but of course world arcs and flashpoints will stay the same, minus of course for the changes your class brings to them, such as different dialog options and different choices based on alignment and the repercussions of those choices.
Of course you'll grind. But it will most likely be the easy type of grinding.
At least it won't be the "sandbox" grinding. If standing around hitting bugged mobs over and over and afkmacro every day to raise your skill level 1 blip!
To me, it's how a game presents the grind that makes the grind not noticable. If I am following a story/questline, I won't notice as much that I'm doing things. But if I have to kill 109837402938471920384198203489710234 bares to get 10 bare asses, that's grinding.
Or, if I MUST kill mobs at my level, every level, all levels, non stop to level, that's grinding.
Or if I MUST kill mobs over and over to raise my skill level by a tiny amount, it's a grind.
These last two examples are grinding because there is nothing presented IN THE GAME to do that. It's forcing me to do this for an outside reason. I'm not doing it to help protect the village, or kill off some Sith so that the republic can establish a base, or for the wrathgate.
I'm doing it for the sole purpose to level up, to compete. Borriiiiiingggggggggg.
Of course, even better, I could just follow a spreadsheet and watch bars fill up when I am on/offline too.
I'd also like to point out, SWG was grind central. I never hit Master BH because of the silly grind. People talked about the "Holocron grind", and after they changed that, the "grind" to unlock jedi. lol No grind in SWG, wow. Just..lol. Yet calling themeparks grindy lol wow. I'm sorry. Everyone has their opinion but lol Sorry lol.
So, you want to run a flashpoint what? once,? twice? three times? How many times should you have to run it before you get all the drops?
You dont have to do any flashpoint you dont want too, but if you want a certain drop, and rng is at play, then you have to grind as little or as often as you want to.
This is an mmo, and grind seems to be confused with effort these days. ITs not a grind to require yout o actually play the damn game.
Seriously.
Back in classic WoW, I had to run LBRS TWENTY-SEVEN times just to get the stupid boots for my class T0 armour. 27 times. In the least-run instance in the game at the time.
I doubt we'll be seeing anything like that in TOR, as the genre has moved away from that level of challenge.
Also, for lower-level flashpoints, there's very little reason to farm them for anything unless there's a BiS item in there that will last you for 10+ levels. From what I've been seeing, BW has been very clear that the bulk (or at least a VERY large chunk) of your levelling xp will come from your story quests unless you are making a specific effort to level via another method- PvP for example.
The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: Be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge. -Elbert Hubbard
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
For starters I never said grind is a negative thing, I simply said it's in every MMO.
As for SWG, to say it was grindless is rather amusing. The entire premise of skilling up was nothing but a grind, grab a couple Bol or Quenker(sp?) missions and get to work; until you had enough XP for a new skill box. Don't even make me bring up the Jedi holocron grind. The crafting grind? The grind to become a pre-cu BH? Come on now, a duck is a duck even when given another name. I loved SWG it's the only MMO I've really ever loved (pre-nge of course). I still acknowledge it was a huge grind with many carrots to chase down.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
Grind are repetitive actions that are considered boring to the MMO gamer that feels it's a grind.
SWG had a lot of repetitive activities that to other people were considered a grind. It may not have felt as a grind to you, but in the same way a lot of people don't feel questing or leveling in a themepark MMO a grind.
Even more, when quest based leveling was introduced many MMO gamers felt it a welcome relief from the mob grinding that was required to level in other former MMO's, and they even scorned Asian MMO's that had far too little quest leveling, saying of those that they were 'too much a grind'.
Like I said, grind is subjective, and only an indication that a person feels repeating activities he/she has to do in the game they play as not fun and boring.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do people actually think before they make comments like this? All MMO's have grind, it's what creates the proverbial carrot on the stick, that keeps players playing. Without some form of grind there is no goal to reach, with no goal to reach there's no longevity in either approach, be it sandbox or themepark.
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
so then are you talking about a grind that you enjoy or "no grind".
That's the thing, if we are going to start saying that everything we dont' like is a grind, then that's great. But then there really isn't a set definition.
There was a huge amount of grind in L2 but I loveed the game. However, in WoW, I coulnd't get a character past lv 35 or so. Does that mean WoW has a worst grind than L2? In leveling in any case?
To my thinking, anything where you repeat the same actions over and over and over and over and over again is a grind. Whether you don't mind it is another thing entirely.
Also the highlighted part is you. There are many people who enjoy the trip up the ladder, being in the world, working on their characters, discovering the stories within the game.
Multiple times through? well, treat it like a book or movie. You just don't do it over and over again so soon after the first completon. It might be interesting for you to know that there are people who find the killing of mobs or crafting over and over and over again just as hairpulling as doing quests.
So to each his or her own I suppose.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
So in order to stay competetive in PVP, would crafter armor be a just as good replacement as any?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
They have said PvP gear will be 10% better for PvP than it's equivalent crafting/raiding gear.
That's actually good I think. I think I might like TOR's PVP. So we'd be able to get PVP gears as we play more and more PVP matches I assume? Eatch math we'd get PVP armor tokens?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
You can receive at least four different rewards for PvP: Valor, Tokens, Experience, and Credits.
Valor is tracked like social points. Your Valor level supplies additional titles and other prestigious privileges (i.e. within a Warzone players with the highest Valor are the party leaders, can mark targets, etc).
Tokens are physical items that can be redeemed for stims and medkits within Warzones, or accumulated to buy PvP-specific gear and trinkets.
http://darthhater.com/2011/05/05/fan-site-summit-pvp-information-learned/
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
On top of that PvP gear can be crafted too, so while you will gain tokens for gear as well, you don't need that gear to stay competitive. While top tier PvP gear will give a 10% boost over PvE equivelants, player crafted PvP gear might give you an 8% boost or something like that, so for those not interested in "grind" for tokens but still want great PvP gear you have more than just one way to get it.
In short: No.
But apparantly this is the kind of answer that earns you the title of "Spotlight Poster". lol What a fucking joke.
Daniel Erickson has said you can quest your way to max level you won't ever have to grind. However with that being said questing is really disguised grinnding so if you consider doing quests grinding then ya your gonna grind. I really hope people are not using flashpoints being repeatable as evidence of grinding since one its optional, and two danial erickson was opposed to flashpoints being repeatable in fact completely opposed to it, the only reason they are repeatable is based on overwhelming feedback from game testers saying we want to repeat flashpoints.
So frankly this discussion seems a bit odd to me since on some level questing is just incentivised grinding that until a completely new system is come up with , that none of us have thought up yet we are stuck with some level of grinnding. But as compared to actual grindy MMO's where it takes forever to reach max level and you have very little quests you just go kill X amount of some mob for hours at a time. My expectation is this will be one the least grindy MMO most of us have played , and we really have nothing to complain about on this issue.......in short why are we even talking about this
Oh, I did not know you could craft PvP gear as well. Good news!
Really...is that why I played SWG -preNGE for so long and Planetside? SWG was grindless. At least for me it was. I enjoyed my time in that game. Planetside was IMHO a grindless game since fun game play started the second you joined the game. EVE is a grind "in real time", but there is no grind in EVE. Everything you do in EVE is worth your time and effort sincve there is no end game - the game is the game.
Most themeparks do not start to be fun until you're at end game, max level and raiding and doing PVP in instances. Sure the initial first time through is cool journey. The second is meh. By the third you are ready to pull your teeth out. By the 4th you're sitting at your comp with drool slowly oozing out the corner of your mouth as you stare at the screen like a zombiefied automaton just going through the motions to get to the end game.
Most newer games it boils down to running raids, gridning for gear(generally multiple sets and PVP instances). Themeparks are notorious for this type of game play.
And we all know how well SWG and Planetside is doing now, don't we. I can't speak to EvE because honestly, I don't find it the least bit fun at all.
TOR may have many themepark elements but it plays to some very fantastic strengths, for one, no repeated story content between classes, multiple decisions through playthroughs and next to no "grind" throughout the game so you don't have to power level to get to the "fun", and don't have to continually repeat content just to "compete".
There was a time when Raids and PvP were fun, but developers over emphasized the necessity of gear and people broke them down into spreadsheets and DPS meters and made it a job instead of entertainment. You'll likely see some guilds trying to break it down like that on SWTOR, but the game is going to cater much more to the enjoyment of the player in my opinion, simply because it doesn't hinge around always having the exact right combinaation of players all the time, and they don't emphasize gear to be the end all be all of skill.
lol, just like mice in a maze dont have to run it to get the cheese?
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thats not entirely true. while class stories will be completely different, the classes will share things like world arc stories within their respective factions. however there will be no repeated story content between factions
Oh don't even go there. Most players know why SWG-preNGE failed and players that played Planetside know why it failed. So please...I was using them as examples of how they once were - grindless.
As for TOR. Only time will tell, but from my knowledge of the game. it is just WoW dressed up like Star Wars..
And your knowledge is very limited so trying to take an honest conclusion of how much "grind" this game would have from you would be like me trying to explain how much "grind" EvE has. I don't play EvE and don't follow it so I won't even try to speak to it.
SWG failed on many levels throughout every change they did, and I was there and played through all of them, planetside was never really a great game either. A game without "grind" doesn't make that game suddenly good. At the end of the day we can reminisce about how great games were back then, but there was a reason why they changed, and a reason why they are where they are today and other games are where they are today.
That being said, the focus of where SWTOR is going does differ quite a bit from the traditional WoW gear grind mentality, as does the process of leveling, crafting, and pretty much most aspects of the game. It won't snuff out grind completely for those who have the incessant need to grind, but it absolutely will not be forced.
Thats what I meant, the classes will all have different stories, but of course world arcs and flashpoints will stay the same, minus of course for the changes your class brings to them, such as different dialog options and different choices based on alignment and the repercussions of those choices.
Of course you'll grind. But it will most likely be the easy type of grinding.
At least it won't be the "sandbox" grinding. If standing around hitting bugged mobs over and over and afkmacro every day to raise your skill level 1 blip!
To me, it's how a game presents the grind that makes the grind not noticable. If I am following a story/questline, I won't notice as much that I'm doing things. But if I have to kill 109837402938471920384198203489710234 bares to get 10 bare asses, that's grinding.
Or, if I MUST kill mobs at my level, every level, all levels, non stop to level, that's grinding.
Or if I MUST kill mobs over and over to raise my skill level by a tiny amount, it's a grind.
These last two examples are grinding because there is nothing presented IN THE GAME to do that. It's forcing me to do this for an outside reason. I'm not doing it to help protect the village, or kill off some Sith so that the republic can establish a base, or for the wrathgate.
I'm doing it for the sole purpose to level up, to compete. Borriiiiiingggggggggg.
Of course, even better, I could just follow a spreadsheet and watch bars fill up when I am on/offline too.
I'd also like to point out, SWG was grind central. I never hit Master BH because of the silly grind. People talked about the "Holocron grind", and after they changed that, the "grind" to unlock jedi. lol No grind in SWG, wow. Just..lol. Yet calling themeparks grindy lol wow. I'm sorry. Everyone has their opinion but lol Sorry lol.
Seriously.
Back in classic WoW, I had to run LBRS TWENTY-SEVEN times just to get the stupid boots for my class T0 armour. 27 times. In the least-run instance in the game at the time.
I doubt we'll be seeing anything like that in TOR, as the genre has moved away from that level of challenge.
Also, for lower-level flashpoints, there's very little reason to farm them for anything unless there's a BiS item in there that will last you for 10+ levels. From what I've been seeing, BW has been very clear that the bulk (or at least a VERY large chunk) of your levelling xp will come from your story quests unless you are making a specific effort to level via another method- PvP for example.
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For starters I never said grind is a negative thing, I simply said it's in every MMO.
As for SWG, to say it was grindless is rather amusing. The entire premise of skilling up was nothing but a grind, grab a couple Bol or Quenker(sp?) missions and get to work; until you had enough XP for a new skill box. Don't even make me bring up the Jedi holocron grind. The crafting grind? The grind to become a pre-cu BH? Come on now, a duck is a duck even when given another name. I loved SWG it's the only MMO I've really ever loved (pre-nge of course). I still acknowledge it was a huge grind with many carrots to chase down.
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Grind are repetitive actions that are considered boring to the MMO gamer that feels it's a grind.
SWG had a lot of repetitive activities that to other people were considered a grind. It may not have felt as a grind to you, but in the same way a lot of people don't feel questing or leveling in a themepark MMO a grind.
Even more, when quest based leveling was introduced many MMO gamers felt it a welcome relief from the mob grinding that was required to level in other former MMO's, and they even scorned Asian MMO's that had far too little quest leveling, saying of those that they were 'too much a grind'.
Like I said, grind is subjective, and only an indication that a person feels repeating activities he/she has to do in the game they play as not fun and boring.
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The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
so then are you talking about a grind that you enjoy or "no grind".
That's the thing, if we are going to start saying that everything we dont' like is a grind, then that's great. But then there really isn't a set definition.
There was a huge amount of grind in L2 but I loveed the game. However, in WoW, I coulnd't get a character past lv 35 or so. Does that mean WoW has a worst grind than L2? In leveling in any case?
To my thinking, anything where you repeat the same actions over and over and over and over and over again is a grind. Whether you don't mind it is another thing entirely.
Also the highlighted part is you. There are many people who enjoy the trip up the ladder, being in the world, working on their characters, discovering the stories within the game.
Multiple times through? well, treat it like a book or movie. You just don't do it over and over again so soon after the first completon. It might be interesting for you to know that there are people who find the killing of mobs or crafting over and over and over again just as hairpulling as doing quests.
So to each his or her own I suppose.
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