The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Vanguards design is aimed at a segement of the market that really isn't being addressed at the moment and none of the future games look like they are going to fill that gap either.
I would argue that archeage might be that future game. we'll have to wait and see tho
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
'Vanguard has gotten a lot of attention internally this past week. I do believe that a road map for the game is being worked on. When that road map will be agreed upon and ready for posting, I do not know. When that information is ready to be shared it will be posted as soon as possible.
I know of 2 other $OE games that have had a bit of attention this week-into oblivion they went.dont know wether or not to think that is good news on the link posted on previous reply or serious bad news for vanguard players.
I really hope that it turns out to be good news for the long suffering community who have been so loyal to the game and SOE.Not that SOE have ever given a crap about their community
I know of 2 other $OE games that have had a bit of attention this week-into oblivion they went.dont know wether or not to think that is good news on the link posted on previous reply or serious bad news for vanguard players.
I really hope that it turns out to be good news for the long suffering community who have been so loyal to the game and SOE.Not that SOE have ever given a crap about their community
The same person that posted that on the Vg forums also stated there is no plans at all to shut down VG
When did they state they had no plans to shut down VG.Was that before SWG and the other (i can't remember) or after.Right now i would air on the side of caution.Given $OE's track record
I am sure Sony is making a killing on Vanguard right now. They have probably depreciated the cost of all of their servers to 0 and have very limited cost. Even with just 2000 accounts they are clearing an easy 250k a year.
A new company would have to make it worth Sony's wild to sell it. The cost would most likely be so great that the new company would have to either:
1) Increase the player base hugely or go under. It would probably be the later considering the age of the game and the cost of doing upgrades on top of initial purchase and set up.
2) Go FTP, in which case it would be nothing like the game so many people love and just be a bastarized mess of itself.
The game is where it is and this is the best it can get. No one is going to throw millions of dollars at a project just because they want a few people to be happy. People who want to spend money to make people's lives better are not going to chose video games as the means.
They just shut down SWG or will by december, what makes folks honeslty think that will not happen to vangaurd. I think fols should be happy they still have Vangaurd after the events of the past few days.
They have to pay license for SWG to Lucas Arts.
The moment the MMO is no longer profitable enough, they will actually make a loss with SWG.
No, Sony bought Vanguard to snub out competition, gain talent, and have a potential expandable IP.
This. Though I don't believe they were interested in the IP - just taking out competition for EQ and getting Brad back in-house.
Yes it would be awesome if someone took it over and gave it some love and attention, but it's not going to happen. I know Brad had no real choice, but the worst thing he did for Vanguard was to sell it to SOE. I like to imagine what kind of a game it would be now if Microsoft hadn't pulled their funding, or if Sigil had found some venture capital somewhere. We'd probably have something pretty amazing in the MMO market.
They didnt get Brad ... not for long, anyway. He does some strange social gaming project now.
And its not like Brad had a choice about selling Vanguard. Sigil went bankrupt. Thats what happends if the first product of a company fails.
Vanguard as a game is amazing right now already. It mainly missed devs, players, has some bug and performance issues, and lacks having great PvP as well.
Originally posted by Xeonsoldier
The amount someone would have to pay to acquire VG would be unreasonable. Not only purchasing it, but getting a dedicated team on the game to de-face it to bring it back up to speed. Like most have said, just take the concepts, put it on another platform, start from scratch.
Agreed.
And while you're at it - add good sandbox elements too (better housing, player build cities) and add great PvP.
Originally posted by Daffid011
Two things have changes since SOE purchased Sigil to acquire Vanguard.
1) SOE no longer has a sizable population of players and healthy games to rely on for revenue.
2) EQ2 isn't anywhere near the size is was in 2006/2007
SOE may not be in a position like they were in the past, so it is possible that they do sell the game. Perhaps they are forced to do so by SCEA.
One can only hope.
Thats why SOE is working on "EQ Next" (aka EverQuest 3) now. I wonder how successful that one will be. Its descriptions sound not too bad. Good enough to make even myself contemplate if I should try it. Its probably the closest we will get to a Vanguard 2 in a long time.
Originally posted by bleyzwun
Sony should just sell the whole SOE. From my experience and what I've heard for years, they don't really give a shit about their MMOs. Anyway, I doubt they would. They heald on to it for this long already.
Err ... Sony would be really stupid if they sold SOE.
SOE may not be the best gaming company, but they are a foot in a very important market.
Originally posted by Kothoses
But I doubt it, find a new game guys, VG is dead.
Sorry, but its simply that TINA. No other MMO gets close to what I get with VG. The community might be small, but its a very nice one now.
Originally posted by Daffid011
Rumor has it that SOE has received at least 2 offers to purchase vanguard. One was rumored to be Raph Koster (or at least he inquired about it, I don't know which).
Thats interesting, because I know Raph Koster only as a sandbox MMO guru.
Originally posted by vesavius
No, they will se it dead first.
The sad thing about VG is that they blame no support at all on so few players, yet it has so few players because people see it has no support.
It is my opinion they are intentionaly letting it rot down to the point they can justifiably cancel it due to 'lack of demand', avoiding the PR backlash that would come even now. Why they are doing this is debatable... I personally feel it's because they don't give a shit about it either way and would rather it just be gone, but understand it has a small passionate vocal following.
Err ... you take this all to a personal level where it doesnt belong at all. SOE is a business. In the bottomline, they dont care about any other argument but money.
SOE has to pay zero for the license (unlike for SWG, which is why SWG is getting shut down now), they pay very little for development (apparently there is still some small patching going on once in a while, so theres probably some parttime programmers still working on Vanguard).
All other costs - network bandwidth, support - depend in a linear way on the number of players they have.
So yeah, SOE isnt going to shut down Vanguard simply because there is no point in doing so. They would just reduce their total income. Why would they want to do that ?
Originally posted by Tardcore
An ethical one? Oh wait we are talking SOE, nevermind.
Companies dont win for being ethical. Thats why capitalism sucks so much, after all. The ***holes always win.
Originally posted by Xeonsoldier
Its unfortunate that ethical and business never land in the same sentence :
You just did, though.
Originally posted by MMOman101
I am sure Sony is making a killing on Vanguard right now. They have probably depreciated the cost of all of their servers to 0 and have very limited cost. Even with just 2000 accounts they are clearing an easy 250k a year.
You forget that they invested 30 millions beforehand first ... or Microsoft did, actually.
Originally posted by Ardwulf
Originally posted by Torgrim
If Vanguard gets a desent group of developers and do a relaunch Vanguard would flatten EQ2 and several other resent MMOs like RIFT and others.
As a Vanguard booster even I think that's a pretty silly thing to say. Vanguard was never positioned to be a big player in the MMO market, no matter what anyone thought before launch. It's niche - but that's fine; the key is embracing that niche and growing the market for it.
Do I think Vanguard would do better with a relaunch and development? Of course. And there's a lot of room for mid-level games doing, say, 50K subs. Darkfall has less than half of that and still has developers and releases, and it's a lesser game than Vanguard is, unless PvP is Your Thing. There's space in the market for Vanguard - a game that offers a lot that other games don't - to thrive without somehow magically getting 500K+ players.
Well - thats wrong. Vanguard was planned to be an AAA title and a "WoW killer". It was the change in leadership at Microsoft that made this premise stop and caused the much too early launch.
They will not sell it for the same reason they bought it in the first place: If VG received polish it would be competition for Sony's other games.
There is also the fact that I doubt many people would want to buy it unless it was sold at a stupidly low price. Fact is its an IP that has failed for various reason in the hands of several different companies. You can blame the companies and for sure they have to shoulder that blame, but the design was flawed, overly ambitious and lacking in delivery. Its much lauded graphics are great in stills but the character animations are still broken as hell emotes dont even correlate to the correct part of the body.
As much as vanguard fans would love to see this game get some love, and for their sake I would love to see it too even if I dont like it, I always like seeing good solid successful MMOs it just wont happen partly because Sony are likely not looking to sell, but mostly because I doubt anyone would buy it.
I stick by my advice though guys, start finding a new game Vanguard is a dead ship and while I appreciate you get what you want out of it for now, I just would rather see people move on, on their own than see another bunch of star wars galaxies style hyperbole and conspiracies.
Sorry, but its simply that TINA. No other MMO gets close to what I get with VG. The community might be small, but its a very nice one now.
Then maybe dead was a bad way to put it, but its certainly only getting life support But I really really hope that changes for you guys, I have signed a few petitions but honestly Sony couldnt manage SWG they failed at managing DC Universe so I doubt Vanguard will be anything different.
Sony should just sell the whole SOE. From my experience and what I've heard for years, they don't really give a shit about their MMOs. Anyway, I doubt they would. They heald on to it for this long already.
Err ... Sony would be really stupid if they sold SOE.
SOE may not be the best gaming company, but they are a foot in a very important market.
SOE isn't just a foot in a very important market, SOE was once the undisputed leader of the mmo market. The problem is SOE has been existing on one successful product that launched over 10 years ago. SOE has been in serious decline for the last half a decade and lacks a decent game that is capable of supporting the company through the future.
Sony could easily sell off SOE, because from a business point of view SOEs books must look anemic. Having a foothold in a market is meaninglss unless you have the ability to do something about it and SOE has not been able to find success for the better part of the last decade.
Sony should just sell the whole SOE. From my experience and what I've heard for years, they don't really give a shit about their MMOs. Anyway, I doubt they would. They heald on to it for this long already.
Err ... Sony would be really stupid if they sold SOE.
SOE may not be the best gaming company, but they are a foot in a very important market.
SOE isn't just a foot in a very important market, SOE was once the undisputed leader of the mmo market. The problem is SOE has been existing on one successful product that launched over 10 years ago. SOE has been in serious decline for the last half a decade and lacks a decent game that is capable of supporting the company through the future.
Sony could easily sell off SOE, because from a business point of view SOEs books must look anemic. Having a foothold in a market is meaninglss unless you have the ability to do something about it and SOE has not been able to find success for the better part of the last decade.
EQ2, upcoming Auto Assault and EQ Next. I would say they will support themselves pretty well .
And no Sony wouldn't sell VG. They need to make station pass more lucrative after price reduction and with new upcoming titles plus VG and EQ2 it is a stellar deal.
EQ2, upcoming Auto Assault and EQ Next. I would say they will support themselves pretty well .
And no Sony wouldn't sell VG. They need to make station pass more lucrative after price reduction and with new upcoming titles plus VG and EQ2 it is a stellar deal.
SOE has had 3 straight years of laying off employees. Just this year alone SOE layed off 1/3 of their entire work force, closed 3 game studios and canceled an mmo that was 5 years in development with 10's of millions already invested in it. That isn't something a company supporting itself just fine would do.
On top of that EQ3 is years away from release and Planetside Next is going to be a niche game at best. Assuming SOE has doesn't repeat their same level of development and either of those games is actually successful.
I'm just saying SOE isn't some gem the Sony couldn't afford to lose or that their next games are guarenteed successes that will carry SOE into the future. As things stand today, SOE is in a very bad position. I doubt vanguard has more than 1,000 full time subscribers and selling it off might not be out of the realm of possibilities.
EQ2, upcoming Auto Assault and EQ Next. I would say they will support themselves pretty well .
And no Sony wouldn't sell VG. They need to make station pass more lucrative after price reduction and with new upcoming titles plus VG and EQ2 it is a stellar deal.
SOE has had 3 straight years of laying off employees. Just this year alone SOE layed off 1/3 of their entire work force, closed 3 game studios and canceled an mmo that was 5 years in development with 10's of millions already invested in it. That isn't something a company supporting itself just fine would do.
On top of that EQ3 is years away from release and Planetside Next is going to be a niche game at best. Assuming SOE has doesn't repeat their same level of development and either of those games is actually successful.
I'm just saying SOE isn't some gem the Sony couldn't afford to lose or that their next games are guarenteed successes that will carry SOE into the future. As things stand today, SOE is in a very bad position. I doubt vanguard has more than 1,000 full time subscribers and selling it off might not be out of the realm of possibilities.
Regardless, with release of upcoming high profile titles like EQ next and Plaentside 2 SOE might turn around and do a lot better than just support themselves. I have been hearing about how SOE is going to die off for years now, amusingly they are still standing while companies like Mythic and Cryptic crumbled around them. Nobody likes to handicap themselves and if SOE was really in such a bad position it would have been closed down couple of years back. I am sure SOE is makign enough proft for Sony, to keep itself alive.
Mythic or Cryptic booming or closing will not improve or worsen the bottom line of SOE in any way. Nor is this some doomcalling that SOE is going to close and how they suck or whatever.
The facts are that SOE has suffered serveral consecutive years of down sizing their company. Thist last year was a massive downsize of 1/3 of the entire company gone. The point is that SOE isn't supporting itself right now and it might look to the possibility of selling off some assets to keep the wheels turning. It isn't like Vanguard is turning big profits, is a massive station pass draw or is a real threat to EQ2 anymore, so who knows.
Might that change in the coming years when they eventually release PlanetSideNext or EQ3, sure anything is possible. SOE might become a huge player in the market again, but that isn't the here and now.
Something interesting to consider. Cryptic was just sold for $50 million dollars if I recall right, so would it really be shocking if Sony sold SOE for a decent chunk of money, assuming there was a buyer. From the standpoint of Sony, SOE is a dying division. It might turn around in the next couple of years with EQ3/PSN, but looking at their last half a dozen games released the last two years doesn't suggest that will happen.
EQ2, upcoming Auto Assault and EQ Next. I would say they will support themselves pretty well .
And no Sony wouldn't sell VG. They need to make station pass more lucrative after price reduction and with new upcoming titles plus VG and EQ2 it is a stellar deal.
SOE has had 3 straight years of laying off employees. Just this year alone SOE layed off 1/3 of their entire work force, closed 3 game studios and canceled an mmo that was 5 years in development with 10's of millions already invested in it. That isn't something a company supporting itself just fine would do.
On top of that EQ3 is years away from release and Planetside Next is going to be a niche game at best. Assuming SOE has doesn't repeat their same level of development and either of those games is actually successful.
I'm just saying SOE isn't some gem the Sony couldn't afford to lose or that their next games are guarenteed successes that will carry SOE into the future. As things stand today, SOE is in a very bad position. I doubt vanguard has more than 1,000 full time subscribers and selling it off might not be out of the realm of possibilities.
Regardless, with release of upcoming high profile titles like EQ next and Plaentside 2 SOE might turn around and do a lot better than just support themselves. I have been hearing about how SOE is going to die off for years now, amusingly they are still standing while companies like Mythic and Cryptic crumbled around them. Nobody likes to handicap themselves and if SOE was really in such a bad position it would have been closed down couple of years back. I am sure SOE is makign enough proft for Sony, to keep itself alive.
A lot of us thought this with DC Universe and the mismanagement of that game too has shown quite a few of us an important leasson, SoE do not learn......
Something interesting to consider. Cryptic was just sold for $50 million dollars if I recall right, so would it really be shocking if Sony sold SOE for a decent chunk of money, assuming there was a buyer. From the standpoint of Sony, SOE is a dying division. It might turn around in the next couple of years with EQ3/PSN, but looking at their last half a dozen games released the last two years doesn't suggest that will happen.
And you know this how? are you working with Sony? otherwise i am taking it as a personal opinion and nothing more.
You're right and a poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking on behalf of Sony, but rather taking a look at the situation from their vantage point.
Perhaps I should have said "The likely viewpoint from Sony is that SOE is a dying division".
While that is just a guess there is certainly a lot of evidence to support that theory. Any way you choose to look at it the facts are that SOE has gone through 3 consecutive years of significant downsizing. It will most likely be a year or two before they even get a chance to release another mmo that could possibly turn their current direction around.
The real speculation rests in what someone thinks will happen to SOE during that time. Will their current games somehow rebound and increase revenues, remain unchanged as new competition enters the market or continue the trend of steady decline leading to more possible downsizing.
The point I was trying to make from all of this was the that is no longer in a position to act like they have in the past when they had piles of cash to throw around. A division can't keep cutting and cutting before some other type of action gets taken.
Comments
I always thought that Vanguard was the true spiritual successor of Everquest, more so than EQ2.
A shame it didn't lift off as it could have done.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Recent update on SOE forums from support people hinted that SOE may start planning updates for VG soon..so thats a good sign
I would argue that archeage might be that future game. we'll have to wait and see tho
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=55686
This is from the SOE Comuunity relation officer-
'Vanguard has gotten a lot of attention internally this past week. I do believe that a road map for the game is being worked on. When that road map will be agreed upon and ready for posting, I do not know. When that information is ready to be shared it will be posted as soon as possible.
Message edited by Naylie on 06/27/2011 11:46:04'
I know of 2 other $OE games that have had a bit of attention this week-into oblivion they went.dont know wether or not to think that is good news on the link posted on previous reply or serious bad news for vanguard players.
I really hope that it turns out to be good news for the long suffering community who have been so loyal to the game and SOE.Not that SOE have ever given a crap about their community
The same person that posted that on the Vg forums also stated there is no plans at all to shut down VG
When did they state they had no plans to shut down VG.Was that before SWG and the other (i can't remember) or after.Right now i would air on the side of caution.Given $OE's track record
They have to pay license for SWG to Lucas Arts.
The moment the MMO is no longer profitable enough, they will actually make a loss with SWG.
But Vanguard has no license whatsoever.
They didnt get Brad ... not for long, anyway. He does some strange social gaming project now.
And its not like Brad had a choice about selling Vanguard. Sigil went bankrupt. Thats what happends if the first product of a company fails.
Vanguard as a game is amazing right now already. It mainly missed devs, players, has some bug and performance issues, and lacks having great PvP as well.
Agreed.
And while you're at it - add good sandbox elements too (better housing, player build cities) and add great PvP.
Thats why SOE is working on "EQ Next" (aka EverQuest 3) now. I wonder how successful that one will be. Its descriptions sound not too bad. Good enough to make even myself contemplate if I should try it. Its probably the closest we will get to a Vanguard 2 in a long time.
Err ... Sony would be really stupid if they sold SOE.
SOE may not be the best gaming company, but they are a foot in a very important market.
Sorry, but its simply that TINA. No other MMO gets close to what I get with VG. The community might be small, but its a very nice one now.
Thats interesting, because I know Raph Koster only as a sandbox MMO guru.
Err ... you take this all to a personal level where it doesnt belong at all. SOE is a business. In the bottomline, they dont care about any other argument but money.
SOE has to pay zero for the license (unlike for SWG, which is why SWG is getting shut down now), they pay very little for development (apparently there is still some small patching going on once in a while, so theres probably some parttime programmers still working on Vanguard).
All other costs - network bandwidth, support - depend in a linear way on the number of players they have.
So yeah, SOE isnt going to shut down Vanguard simply because there is no point in doing so. They would just reduce their total income. Why would they want to do that ?
Companies dont win for being ethical. Thats why capitalism sucks so much, after all. The ***holes always win.
You just did, though.
You forget that they invested 30 millions beforehand first ... or Microsoft did, actually.
Well - thats wrong. Vanguard was planned to be an AAA title and a "WoW killer". It was the change in leadership at Microsoft that made this premise stop and caused the much too early launch.
I put a price tag of $90mil on it and Sony never got back to me. So, i'm guessing if anyone would want to buy it it'll cost 90mil + to do so.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
There is also the fact that I doubt many people would want to buy it unless it was sold at a stupidly low price. Fact is its an IP that has failed for various reason in the hands of several different companies. You can blame the companies and for sure they have to shoulder that blame, but the design was flawed, overly ambitious and lacking in delivery. Its much lauded graphics are great in stills but the character animations are still broken as hell emotes dont even correlate to the correct part of the body.
As much as vanguard fans would love to see this game get some love, and for their sake I would love to see it too even if I dont like it, I always like seeing good solid successful MMOs it just wont happen partly because Sony are likely not looking to sell, but mostly because I doubt anyone would buy it.
I stick by my advice though guys, start finding a new game Vanguard is a dead ship and while I appreciate you get what you want out of it for now, I just would rather see people move on, on their own than see another bunch of star wars galaxies style hyperbole and conspiracies.
Then maybe dead was a bad way to put it, but its certainly only getting life support
But I really really hope that changes for you guys, I have signed a few petitions but honestly Sony couldnt manage SWG they failed at managing DC Universe so I doubt Vanguard will be anything different.
SOE isn't just a foot in a very important market, SOE was once the undisputed leader of the mmo market. The problem is SOE has been existing on one successful product that launched over 10 years ago. SOE has been in serious decline for the last half a decade and lacks a decent game that is capable of supporting the company through the future.
Sony could easily sell off SOE, because from a business point of view SOEs books must look anemic. Having a foothold in a market is meaninglss unless you have the ability to do something about it and SOE has not been able to find success for the better part of the last decade.
EQ2, upcoming Auto Assault and EQ Next. I would say they will support themselves pretty well .
And no Sony wouldn't sell VG. They need to make station pass more lucrative after price reduction and with new upcoming titles plus VG and EQ2 it is a stellar deal.
SOE has had 3 straight years of laying off employees. Just this year alone SOE layed off 1/3 of their entire work force, closed 3 game studios and canceled an mmo that was 5 years in development with 10's of millions already invested in it. That isn't something a company supporting itself just fine would do.
On top of that EQ3 is years away from release and Planetside Next is going to be a niche game at best. Assuming SOE has doesn't repeat their same level of development and either of those games is actually successful.
I'm just saying SOE isn't some gem the Sony couldn't afford to lose or that their next games are guarenteed successes that will carry SOE into the future. As things stand today, SOE is in a very bad position. I doubt vanguard has more than 1,000 full time subscribers and selling it off might not be out of the realm of possibilities.
Regardless, with release of upcoming high profile titles like EQ next and Plaentside 2 SOE might turn around and do a lot better than just support themselves. I have been hearing about how SOE is going to die off for years now, amusingly they are still standing while companies like Mythic and Cryptic crumbled around them. Nobody likes to handicap themselves and if SOE was really in such a bad position it would have been closed down couple of years back. I am sure SOE is makign enough proft for Sony, to keep itself alive.
Mythic or Cryptic booming or closing will not improve or worsen the bottom line of SOE in any way. Nor is this some doomcalling that SOE is going to close and how they suck or whatever.
The facts are that SOE has suffered serveral consecutive years of down sizing their company. Thist last year was a massive downsize of 1/3 of the entire company gone. The point is that SOE isn't supporting itself right now and it might look to the possibility of selling off some assets to keep the wheels turning. It isn't like Vanguard is turning big profits, is a massive station pass draw or is a real threat to EQ2 anymore, so who knows.
Might that change in the coming years when they eventually release PlanetSideNext or EQ3, sure anything is possible. SOE might become a huge player in the market again, but that isn't the here and now.
Something interesting to consider. Cryptic was just sold for $50 million dollars if I recall right, so would it really be shocking if Sony sold SOE for a decent chunk of money, assuming there was a buyer. From the standpoint of Sony, SOE is a dying division. It might turn around in the next couple of years with EQ3/PSN, but looking at their last half a dozen games released the last two years doesn't suggest that will happen.
A lot of us thought this with DC Universe and the mismanagement of that game too has shown quite a few of us an important leasson, SoE do not learn......
And you know this how? are you working with Sony? otherwise i am taking it as a personal opinion and nothing more.
You're right and a poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking on behalf of Sony, but rather taking a look at the situation from their vantage point.
Perhaps I should have said "The likely viewpoint from Sony is that SOE is a dying division".
While that is just a guess there is certainly a lot of evidence to support that theory. Any way you choose to look at it the facts are that SOE has gone through 3 consecutive years of significant downsizing. It will most likely be a year or two before they even get a chance to release another mmo that could possibly turn their current direction around.
The real speculation rests in what someone thinks will happen to SOE during that time. Will their current games somehow rebound and increase revenues, remain unchanged as new competition enters the market or continue the trend of steady decline leading to more possible downsizing.
The point I was trying to make from all of this was the that is no longer in a position to act like they have in the past when they had piles of cash to throw around. A division can't keep cutting and cutting before some other type of action gets taken.