The only way to earn the best rewards is to exhibit a lot of skill. Whether the DP is painful or not doesn't actually change things. Harsh DP's main effects are to make me overly cautious and make me less likely to want to play the game each day.
Exactly. Cautious players don't try new things or take as many risks as players who don't care if they die. In addition, harsh death penalty can often be translated to "downtime" because in essence recouperating from your losses is lost time. Downtime rarely offers a chance to learn. It is just twisting the knife in the wound.
Player plays 10 minutes and dies in a game that has a harsh death penalty. He has to recover from his losses which takes him 1 hour (sometimes even days depending on the game). During that one hour, in a game that has no harsh death penalty, that player could've had about 6 times the playing experience.
Fear of losing doesn't teach you to play well - experience does, and you get more experience the more you play.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
IMHO the death penalty does not offer challenge persay but when done right it does demand ones respect for the world/zones you travel through and play in, which can be exciting, fun and or downright frustrating..
Some of both my fondest and most frustrating gaming memories are from EQ1 because in 1999/2000 dying a 56k lag/disconnect death or just getting trained or owned while on a hell level was tough stuff and the time wasted looking for and then waiting for a guildy cleric to come rez me to reduce the DP was frustrating but at the same time i learned what grouping, guildship and helping and being helped by fellow players was all about...
And while im not really for death penalties i think it depends on the quality of the game itself and i always thought EQs biggest problem was that there was way to much butt time recouping health and mana after a fight, yet at the same time new friends were made and funny situations often occured or arose in those meditating moments...
This is why slot machines offer some of the toughest gameplay around. All those little old white haired ladies going to the casinos? Hardcore gamers.
I mean, what's the 'harsh death penalty' in an MMO? You waste a couple hours maybe? There's not many MMOs that go so far as to even use permadeath.
Look at a slot machine. The harsh death penalties of even a couple hours of play can run into the hundreds of dollars.
You could buy a fully leveled character to replace your permadeath lost character, right there.
Slot machines have a harsher death penalty than MMORPGs = Slot machines are definitely way more challenging and engaging than the easy weak sauce MMORPG games.
When you're all older and grown up and can appreciate TRUE difficulty, you'll all be going to casinos too. :<
How many times have you been in barrens or some other zone and just been abused to hell and back by some total noob because he knows you cant do shit all about it.
If wow had a better death penalty then people would think before they opened their mouth or typed, they would think about what their actions would mean, there would be less random ganking because people would know that their gank of some low player could come back and bite them in the ass as it often does in games like EvE.
If wow added better death and open pvp I would go back to it.
This is why slot machines offer some of the toughest gameplay around. All those little old white haired ladies going to the casinos? Hardcore gamers.
I mean, what's the 'harsh death penalty' in an MMO? You waste a couple hours maybe? There's not many MMOs that go so far as to even use permadeath.
Look at a slot machine. The harsh death penalties of even a couple hours of play can run into the hundreds of dollars.
You could buy a fully leveled character to replace your permadeath lost character, right there.
Slot machines have a harsher death penalty than MMORPGs = Slot machines are definitely way more challenging and engaging than the easy weak sauce MMORPG games.
When you're all older and grown up and can appreciate TRUE difficulty, you'll all be going to casinos too. :<
You seem to place high value on money. Not everyone does. For some, time, reputation, resources and other factors may be of greater value and thus offer greater risk for their actions or encounters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You seem to place high value on money. Not everyone does. For some, time, reputation, resources and other factors may be of greater value and thus offer greater risk for their actions or encounters.
... or I could not be making a serious suggestion.
Though, money is convenient short hand for time/resources and vice versa.
... and I doubt there's many players out here who would seriously suggest that losing a dollar every time you lose a fight (Which happens about every 20 seconds or so....) would count as a 'light death penalty' for an MMORPG.
(edit: I'm mildly annoyed that I had to point out I wasn't serious before I generated some SERIOUS outrage from people whose feelings are hurt by the idea casino players are more hardcore than them, but I forgive you because a beholder can kick my ass.)
(double edit: Actually, you know what? I'll stand by my comment that losing money is a harsh death penalty. I'm willing to bet money (Haha) that the VAST majority of MMORPG players (Well above 90%) would find losing money in huge quantities to be a wholly unacceptable, way too harsh death penalty. Sure, some people might not place a high value on money, but how many MMORPGs does Steve Jobs play, anyway? )
It just adds more grind since you nned to grind the XP or gear you lost. Harder gameplay on the other hand increases the challenge, if you suck you want get far no matter what you do, death enalty or no death penalty.
A little death penalty can increase the adrenaline when playing, that is the good thing with it.
It just adds more grind since you nned to grind the XP or gear you lost. Harder gameplay on the other hand increases the challenge, if you suck you want get far no matter what you do, death enalty or no death penalty.
A little death penalty can increase the adrenaline when playing, that is the good thing with it.
Actually, there are ways to have death penalty create challenge. Since you're an avid GW player, surprised you didn't think of it.
The death penalty system in GW just adds to the challenge. The more you die, the harder it gets, often times forcing you to give up and try over.
It really only works because of instancing, and non-respawning monsters though, but I would say the death penalty allows one to continue playing, at the punishment of having the rest of the game more challenging (Ignoring things like candy canes for the moment.)
Harsh death penalty can add excitement, but it doesn't add challenge.
I'm all for a game that has minimal death penalty. Even a game like WoW where it's just a small amount of money if you die, you'll still see groups where the healer/tank gets about 2 chances to get their act together before someone quits because they don't want to keep paying for wipes. I think it would benefit community if people felt like it was worthwhile to help another player improve rather than just heading for the hills.
I think just needing 5, 10 or 15 minutes to get back to where you were is enough. If the boss is challenging, I'd rather spend an hour wiping on them trying different tactics than quit after 2 attempts because people don't want to pay or having to grind back their lost XP. The penalty for failure is that we wasted an hour and achieved nothing.
One thing though is that death should NEVER benefit somebody under any circumstances. The game has to be designed that you can't keep running back to the boss after death to whittle them down. Death should never be able to be used as a fast travel either.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It just adds more grind since you nned to grind the XP or gear you lost. Harder gameplay on the other hand increases the challenge, if you suck you want get far no matter what you do, death enalty or no death penalty.
A little death penalty can increase the adrenaline when playing, that is the good thing with it.
What people want, what I want, is to engage their cerebral cortex a little more when playing a game; not grind which uses the automated part of the brain.
It just adds more grind since you nned to grind the XP or gear you lost. Harder gameplay on the other hand increases the challenge, if you suck you want get far no matter what you do, death enalty or no death penalty.
A little death penalty can increase the adrenaline when playing, that is the good thing with it.
Actually, there are ways to have death penalty create challenge. Since you're an avid GW player, surprised you didn't think of it.
The death penalty system in GW just adds to the challenge. The more you die, the harder it gets, often times forcing you to give up and try over.
It really only works because of instancing, and non-respawning monsters though, but I would say the death penalty allows one to continue playing, at the punishment of having the rest of the game more challenging (Ignoring things like candy canes for the moment.)
That particular death penalty also brought some tactical depth to GvG matches. It fit the game very well.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The death penalty in these games is directly porportional the amount of grind time it would take to repay the death penalty - insurance. It's mathematically precise, and there are no exceptions in any game.
That particular death penalty also brought some tactical depth to GvG matches. It fit the game very well.
Right. It meant that even in a PvP fight where rezes happen 20 times, death was still a bad thing each and every time it happened.
I actually think the GW death penalty is one of my favorites, because it actually integrated with the balance of game play. Supporting a weaker person became part of the gameplay.
That's why people like things like corpse runs or whatever, because the death penalty actually led to another form of gameplay. The problem with a corpse run is that the amount of gameplay some people get from it is overwhelmed by the amount of frustration and time loss other people get from it.
That's why to me, WoW has one of the worst death penalties I've ever played in an MMO. Because it led to you playing the game for a period of time in a LESS fun way. Running back to your corpse was a huge waste of time, since it wasn't actually entertaining gameplay. You were completely safe, it was just boring and running. No challenge, no excitement, no anything.
It just adds more grind since you nned to grind the XP or gear you lost. Harder gameplay on the other hand increases the challenge, if you suck you want get far no matter what you do, death enalty or no death penalty.
A little death penalty can increase the adrenaline when playing, that is the good thing with it.
What people want, what I want, is to engage their cerebral cortex a little more when playing a game; not grind which uses the automated part of the brain.
funny you should say that since in theme park mmo's millions of players experiance what I call the zombie effect, where you just look up at your monitor and realize that you just spent 4 hours sitting in Orgrimar doing NOTHING, or you finally look at your watch and realize that you just spent 4 hours questing but cant rmember a single quest.
Your brain is switching into auto pilot, your not thinking, your not enguaging your ceribelim as you put it, your simply going through the motions and the longer you play a given game, the more at ease your brain is with just switching itself off and going into auto pilot.
this actually then leads to dull PVP, because when it happens at random, if your in auto pilot mode via question when you get jumped by a player your brains not really awake enough to react to the fight and you die fast , shortly after the adrenalin kicks in wakes you up and you start to think of the millions things you could have done to win what was a pointless stupid death.
ANY GAME - that allows a player to enter this "zombie state" - Dvalin 2011 , is a sucky game.
Some poeple confuse this with burn out, it's not burn out its a bad game thats failing to excite the brain, open world PVP, the threat of being attackad at any time and the risk that comes with death helps stave off this zombie effect, I have never once experianced this effect in a game with a harsh death penalty because if never felt safe enough to allow my brain to just drop gears and enter zombie mode.
You all need to stop being zombies man , wake your brains up, experiance the full range of emotions that a real game can offer.
It just adds more grind since you nned to grind the XP or gear you lost. Harder gameplay on the other hand increases the challenge, if you suck you want get far no matter what you do, death enalty or no death penalty.
A little death penalty can increase the adrenaline when playing, that is the good thing with it.
What people want, what I want, is to engage their cerebral cortex a little more when playing a game; not grind which uses the automated part of the brain.
funny you should say that since in theme park mmo's millions of players experiance what I call the zombie effect, where you just look up at your monitor and realize that you just spent 4 hours sitting in Orgrimar doing NOTHING, or you finally look at your watch and realize that you just spent 4 hours questing but cant rmember a single quest.
Your brain is switching into auto pilot, your not thinking, your not enguaging your ceribelim as you put it, your simply going through the motions and the longer you play a given game, the more at ease your brain is with just switching itself off and going into auto pilot.
this actually then leads to dull PVP, because when it happens at random, if your in auto pilot mode via question when you get jumped by a player your brains not really awake enough to react to the fight and you die fast , shortly after the adrenalin kicks in wakes you up and you start to think of the millions things you could have done to win what was a pointless stupid death.
ANY GAME - that allows a player to enter this "zombie state" - Dvalin 2011 , is a sucky game.
Some poeple confuse this with burn out, it's not burn out its a bad game thats failing to excite the brain, open world PVP, the threat of being attackad at any time and the risk that comes with death helps stave off this zombie effect, I have never once experianced this effect in a game with a harsh death penalty because if never felt safe enough to allow my brain to just drop gears and enter zombie mode.
You all need to stop being zombies man , wake your brains up, experiance the full range of emotions that a real game can offer.
You can be in a zombie state while PVP too. After a couple years of playing WWIIONLINE (nothing but world PVP), I found myself in a zombie state many times. There are only so many ways you can capture a flag: left, right, up, down, and if you're feeling crazy you can capture the flag all diagnolly. The tactical library of options are larger than other games, but it's still Capture The Flag, and that means limited tactical engagements.
After a few years most players memorize their library of tactical options and can no longer be out-smarted or outmaneuvered. I was the top anti-tank gunner in the entire game about 2 years into the game around 2004, I pionereed the art of supply cutting (placing myself between target and spawn point with anti-tank gun), but eventually everyone else started doing it or defended against it. It's like your standard FPS game where everyone enentually memorizes a map, same concept.
A harsh death penalty does make a game more challenging.
If for no other reason that it keeps people from failing up.
EQ and other games had you lose xp and even levels when you died.
But in most modern games death is hardly an incovenience.. When people kill themselves for ease of travel or to wipe their group for fun with next to no penalties, it doesnt seem reasonable.
Harder gameplay also presents a challenge.
And with both it can be a knifes edge of balance between constant frustration and a mix of anguish and pure joy of winning.
After playing Planetside for 4 months, another all open-world pvp game, I wanted to expand my tactical library of options; out-think my opponent. After 4 months I got tired of doing the same old thing: mine-fields, turrets on the walls, tanking, infantry, flying. Everyone was doing the same thing, using the same tactics, but I could try to outthink my opponent.
One day I decided to play the delaying-defense tactic. I would delay any entry into a back door of a base by placing myself in close proximity to backdoor and putting mines on the opposite side of cover like trees and rocks of any enemy engaged with me, and turrets along my line of fire also just in case I wasn't engaged. It worked beautifully the first time. I held back a squad of 5-6 players trying to get into the backdoor for at least 2 minutes, didn't get any kills but I delayed them until others could come to me and prevent them from getting in. Then one of the players hit their I-win-button EMP orbital strike and destroyed all of my mines. It was then that I realized why other players never used this tactic, because of the EMP orbital strike. I logged off then unsubbed, because I could no longer out-think my opponent, and my tactical options were limited to the point where playing just puts me into a zombie state.
You seem to place high value on money. Not everyone does. For some, time, reputation, resources and other factors may be of greater value and thus offer greater risk for their actions or encounters.
... or I could not be making a serious suggestion.
Though, money is convenient short hand for time/resources and vice versa.
... and I doubt there's many players out here who would seriously suggest that losing a dollar every time you lose a fight (Which happens about every 20 seconds or so....) would count as a 'light death penalty' for an MMORPG.
(edit: I'm mildly annoyed that I had to point out I wasn't serious before I generated some SERIOUS outrage from people whose feelings are hurt by the idea casino players are more hardcore than them, but I forgive you because a beholder can kick my ass.)
(double edit: Actually, you know what? I'll stand by my comment that losing money is a harsh death penalty. I'm willing to bet money (Haha) that the VAST majority of MMORPG players (Well above 90%) would find losing money in huge quantities to be a wholly unacceptable, way too harsh death penalty. Sure, some people might not place a high value on money, but how many MMORPGs does Steve Jobs play, anyway? )
My apologies for not understanding the humor or alternate direction you intended in your post.
"Look at a slot machine. The harsh death penalties of even a couple hours of play can run into the hundreds of dollars."
I genuinely thought that was a serious comment.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My apologies for not understanding the humor or alternate direction you intended in your post.
"Look at a slot machine. The harsh death penalties of even a couple hours of play can run into the hundreds of dollars."
I genuinely thought that was a serious comment.
Well, that part was serious... ish.
... I still stand by my comment! I will back it. You say that other people don't find money to be an onerous death penalty, I would like you to point out to me these mysterious MMORPG players who wouldn't insist that paying more money (A dollar or so) every time they die (Which should happen on average at least a couple times a minute) is an overly severe death penalty.
A harsh death penalty does make a game more challenging.
If for no other reason that it keeps people from failing up.
EQ and other games had you lose xp and even levels when you died.
But in most modern games death is hardly an incovenience.. When people kill themselves for ease of travel or to wipe their group for fun with next to no penalties, it doesnt seem reasonable.
Harder gameplay also presents a challenge.
And with both it can be a knifes edge of balance between constant frustration and a mix of anguish and pure joy of winning.
Agreed. Successfully failing up, however, is intended design in MMORPGs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My apologies for not understanding the humor or alternate direction you intended in your post.
"Look at a slot machine. The harsh death penalties of even a couple hours of play can run into the hundreds of dollars."
I genuinely thought that was a serious comment.
Well, that part was serious... ish.
... I still stand by my comment! I will back it. You say that other people don't find money to be an onerous death penalty, I would like you to point out to me these mysterious MMORPG players who wouldn't insist that paying more money (A dollar or so) every time they die (Which should happen on average at least a couple times a minute) is an overly severe death penalty.
Not going to argue strawmen. I'd rather just agree to disagree.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not going to argue strawmen. I'd rather just agree to disagree.
Actually,sorry, I wasn't trying to make a strawman, but I think we can make a serious discussion out of this! (Since I have nothing better to do other than finishing painting/sanding walls, and that feels like work right now)
Upon going back and reviewing your original statement, you said that people might find other things to be more important to them, like time (The most common death penalty, really), resources (Which in an MMORPG usually equates to time anyway) and reputation.
So I'm curious about this. Which MMORPG uses reputation as a form of death penalty? I suppose it would work on some sort of PvP side, having a ranking system... is that what you mean?
So far as time/resources, I think most people would rather lose time/resources than money.
I'm under the impression that if you asked most people if they would rather lose time (Say, in the form of lost experience/gold penalty) or real life money, most people would rather pick the first.
Though, upon deeper examination, it might be because they'd rather not think of their own time as being equivalent to money, and if you CAN pay for your losses in money, then it might feel like a P2W type situation. People generally don't want to associate what they earn in game (Through time and effort) to be directly translatable to money and vice versa. Though sometimes it is (Any form of RMT that gives in game advantages.)
(Feel free to NOT respond to this if you don't want to talk about something that is, in fact, pretty meaningless and just being used to avoid real work.)
Actually, there are ways to have death penalty create challenge. Since you're an avid GW player, surprised you didn't think of it.
The death penalty system in GW just adds to the challenge. The more you die, the harder it gets, often times forcing you to give up and try over.
It really only works because of instancing, and non-respawning monsters though, but I would say the death penalty allows one to continue playing, at the punishment of having the rest of the game more challenging (Ignoring things like candy canes for the moment.)
Well, it is just that I don't consider a temporary negative buff a real penalty. And it works fine in a non instanced world if you put a timer on it instead. But it rarely is more than an anooyance in GW, I have loads of consumables that removes it there which I have farmed on holiday event.
I was more thinking of the classical penalties like XP, gold or items. Stuff like that doesn't help at all. Debuffing anyone who dies helps somewhat but since it isn't permamnent there will always be ways to get rid of that debuff for the cost of some time.
Dying is hard to penalize good. Pen and paper games either have perma death or a rez that is rare, expensive and lower you a level or a stat point. But combat is much rarer in P&P, I usually get into 2-3 fights in 8 hours playing (sometimes more or less but average). Of course it differs depending on the DM but still, in 8 hours of MMO playing you get into a lot of fighting so the chances of dying is increased a lot.
The fact that you don't have an active GM doesn't help either. It isn't particularly fun if dying doesn't matter at all but I havn't played a game with good death penalty.
Here anways is my suggestion how it should work: Everytime you get rezzed you get a permanent wound you only can heal inside a temple (usually in a town). Wounds could be like the debuffs in dragonage but you should be able to see them on your avatar (bandages, blood and similar). Let it be random (unless you have collision detection) how bad the wound is but it should be harder and harder to adventure and sooner or later you must visit that temple.
It really doesn't have to cost goldin the temple even if that is a possibility, the important thing is that dying= bad.
Comments
I would say it adds to the difficulty to a degree. It is not the end all be all.
Set it too low, and there is no risk of entering an area too high for you, or picking a fight on a gamble you might win.
Set it too high, and people take no risks, are stuck fighting low level mobs, which results in general frustration.
EQ: way too high
DAOC: high, but wasnt noticable until the higher levels. Resurrection (If available) helped to offset most of the loss.
WoW: lol
EVE: depends on who you talk to.
But i would say there needs to be some sort of penalty that forces the player to stop and re-think their approach. And not corpse drag around a zone.
Exactly. Cautious players don't try new things or take as many risks as players who don't care if they die. In addition, harsh death penalty can often be translated to "downtime" because in essence recouperating from your losses is lost time. Downtime rarely offers a chance to learn. It is just twisting the knife in the wound.
Player plays 10 minutes and dies in a game that has a harsh death penalty. He has to recover from his losses which takes him 1 hour (sometimes even days depending on the game). During that one hour, in a game that has no harsh death penalty, that player could've had about 6 times the playing experience.
Fear of losing doesn't teach you to play well - experience does, and you get more experience the more you play.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Does Harsh Death Penalty really make the Challenge, or does Harder Gameplay make the Challenge?
The question is B.S. There are alternatives.
If you can't think of an alternative then you have a serious imagination deficit.
IMHO the death penalty does not offer challenge persay but when done right it does demand ones respect for the world/zones you travel through and play in, which can be exciting, fun and or downright frustrating..
Some of both my fondest and most frustrating gaming memories are from EQ1 because in 1999/2000 dying a 56k lag/disconnect death or just getting trained or owned while on a hell level was tough stuff and the time wasted looking for and then waiting for a guildy cleric to come rez me to reduce the DP was frustrating but at the same time i learned what grouping, guildship and helping and being helped by fellow players was all about...
And while im not really for death penalties i think it depends on the quality of the game itself and i always thought EQs biggest problem was that there was way to much butt time recouping health and mana after a fight, yet at the same time new friends were made and funny situations often occured or arose in those meditating moments...
Playing GW2..
This is why slot machines offer some of the toughest gameplay around. All those little old white haired ladies going to the casinos? Hardcore gamers.
I mean, what's the 'harsh death penalty' in an MMO? You waste a couple hours maybe? There's not many MMOs that go so far as to even use permadeath.
Look at a slot machine. The harsh death penalties of even a couple hours of play can run into the hundreds of dollars.
You could buy a fully leveled character to replace your permadeath lost character, right there.
Slot machines have a harsher death penalty than MMORPGs = Slot machines are definitely way more challenging and engaging than the easy weak sauce MMORPG games.
When you're all older and grown up and can appreciate TRUE difficulty, you'll all be going to casinos too. :<
How many times have you been in barrens or some other zone and just been abused to hell and back by some total noob because he knows you cant do shit all about it.
If wow had a better death penalty then people would think before they opened their mouth or typed, they would think about what their actions would mean, there would be less random ganking because people would know that their gank of some low player could come back and bite them in the ass as it often does in games like EvE.
If wow added better death and open pvp I would go back to it.
You seem to place high value on money. Not everyone does. For some, time, reputation, resources and other factors may be of greater value and thus offer greater risk for their actions or encounters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
... or I could not be making a serious suggestion.
Though, money is convenient short hand for time/resources and vice versa.
... and I doubt there's many players out here who would seriously suggest that losing a dollar every time you lose a fight (Which happens about every 20 seconds or so....) would count as a 'light death penalty' for an MMORPG.
(edit: I'm mildly annoyed that I had to point out I wasn't serious before I generated some SERIOUS outrage from people whose feelings are hurt by the idea casino players are more hardcore than them, but I forgive you because a beholder can kick my ass.)
(double edit: Actually, you know what? I'll stand by my comment that losing money is a harsh death penalty. I'm willing to bet money (Haha) that the VAST majority of MMORPG players (Well above 90%) would find losing money in huge quantities to be a wholly unacceptable, way too harsh death penalty. Sure, some people might not place a high value on money, but how many MMORPGs does Steve Jobs play, anyway? )
Death penalties does not equal challenge.
It just adds more grind since you nned to grind the XP or gear you lost. Harder gameplay on the other hand increases the challenge, if you suck you want get far no matter what you do, death enalty or no death penalty.
A little death penalty can increase the adrenaline when playing, that is the good thing with it.
Actually, there are ways to have death penalty create challenge. Since you're an avid GW player, surprised you didn't think of it.
The death penalty system in GW just adds to the challenge. The more you die, the harder it gets, often times forcing you to give up and try over.
It really only works because of instancing, and non-respawning monsters though, but I would say the death penalty allows one to continue playing, at the punishment of having the rest of the game more challenging (Ignoring things like candy canes for the moment.)
Harsh death penalty can add excitement, but it doesn't add challenge.
I'm all for a game that has minimal death penalty. Even a game like WoW where it's just a small amount of money if you die, you'll still see groups where the healer/tank gets about 2 chances to get their act together before someone quits because they don't want to keep paying for wipes. I think it would benefit community if people felt like it was worthwhile to help another player improve rather than just heading for the hills.
I think just needing 5, 10 or 15 minutes to get back to where you were is enough. If the boss is challenging, I'd rather spend an hour wiping on them trying different tactics than quit after 2 attempts because people don't want to pay or having to grind back their lost XP. The penalty for failure is that we wasted an hour and achieved nothing.
One thing though is that death should NEVER benefit somebody under any circumstances. The game has to be designed that you can't keep running back to the boss after death to whittle them down. Death should never be able to be used as a fast travel either.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
What people want, what I want, is to engage their cerebral cortex a little more when playing a game; not grind which uses the automated part of the brain.
That particular death penalty also brought some tactical depth to GvG matches. It fit the game very well.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The death penalty in these games is directly porportional the amount of grind time it would take to repay the death penalty - insurance. It's mathematically precise, and there are no exceptions in any game.
Right. It meant that even in a PvP fight where rezes happen 20 times, death was still a bad thing each and every time it happened.
I actually think the GW death penalty is one of my favorites, because it actually integrated with the balance of game play. Supporting a weaker person became part of the gameplay.
That's why people like things like corpse runs or whatever, because the death penalty actually led to another form of gameplay. The problem with a corpse run is that the amount of gameplay some people get from it is overwhelmed by the amount of frustration and time loss other people get from it.
That's why to me, WoW has one of the worst death penalties I've ever played in an MMO. Because it led to you playing the game for a period of time in a LESS fun way. Running back to your corpse was a huge waste of time, since it wasn't actually entertaining gameplay. You were completely safe, it was just boring and running. No challenge, no excitement, no anything.
funny you should say that since in theme park mmo's millions of players experiance what I call the zombie effect, where you just look up at your monitor and realize that you just spent 4 hours sitting in Orgrimar doing NOTHING, or you finally look at your watch and realize that you just spent 4 hours questing but cant rmember a single quest.
Your brain is switching into auto pilot, your not thinking, your not enguaging your ceribelim as you put it, your simply going through the motions and the longer you play a given game, the more at ease your brain is with just switching itself off and going into auto pilot.
this actually then leads to dull PVP, because when it happens at random, if your in auto pilot mode via question when you get jumped by a player your brains not really awake enough to react to the fight and you die fast , shortly after the adrenalin kicks in wakes you up and you start to think of the millions things you could have done to win what was a pointless stupid death.
ANY GAME - that allows a player to enter this "zombie state" - Dvalin 2011 , is a sucky game.
Some poeple confuse this with burn out, it's not burn out its a bad game thats failing to excite the brain, open world PVP, the threat of being attackad at any time and the risk that comes with death helps stave off this zombie effect, I have never once experianced this effect in a game with a harsh death penalty because if never felt safe enough to allow my brain to just drop gears and enter zombie mode.
You all need to stop being zombies man , wake your brains up, experiance the full range of emotions that a real game can offer.
You can be in a zombie state while PVP too. After a couple years of playing WWIIONLINE (nothing but world PVP), I found myself in a zombie state many times. There are only so many ways you can capture a flag: left, right, up, down, and if you're feeling crazy you can capture the flag all diagnolly. The tactical library of options are larger than other games, but it's still Capture The Flag, and that means limited tactical engagements.
After a few years most players memorize their library of tactical options and can no longer be out-smarted or outmaneuvered. I was the top anti-tank gunner in the entire game about 2 years into the game around 2004, I pionereed the art of supply cutting (placing myself between target and spawn point with anti-tank gun), but eventually everyone else started doing it or defended against it. It's like your standard FPS game where everyone enentually memorizes a map, same concept.
A harsh death penalty does make a game more challenging.
If for no other reason that it keeps people from failing up.
EQ and other games had you lose xp and even levels when you died.
But in most modern games death is hardly an incovenience.. When people kill themselves for ease of travel or to wipe their group for fun with next to no penalties, it doesnt seem reasonable.
Harder gameplay also presents a challenge.
And with both it can be a knifes edge of balance between constant frustration and a mix of anguish and pure joy of winning.
After playing Planetside for 4 months, another all open-world pvp game, I wanted to expand my tactical library of options; out-think my opponent. After 4 months I got tired of doing the same old thing: mine-fields, turrets on the walls, tanking, infantry, flying. Everyone was doing the same thing, using the same tactics, but I could try to outthink my opponent.
One day I decided to play the delaying-defense tactic. I would delay any entry into a back door of a base by placing myself in close proximity to backdoor and putting mines on the opposite side of cover like trees and rocks of any enemy engaged with me, and turrets along my line of fire also just in case I wasn't engaged. It worked beautifully the first time. I held back a squad of 5-6 players trying to get into the backdoor for at least 2 minutes, didn't get any kills but I delayed them until others could come to me and prevent them from getting in. Then one of the players hit their I-win-button EMP orbital strike and destroyed all of my mines. It was then that I realized why other players never used this tactic, because of the EMP orbital strike. I logged off then unsubbed, because I could no longer out-think my opponent, and my tactical options were limited to the point where playing just puts me into a zombie state.
My apologies for not understanding the humor or alternate direction you intended in your post.
"Look at a slot machine. The harsh death penalties of even a couple hours of play can run into the hundreds of dollars."
I genuinely thought that was a serious comment.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, that part was serious... ish.
... I still stand by my comment! I will back it. You say that other people don't find money to be an onerous death penalty, I would like you to point out to me these mysterious MMORPG players who wouldn't insist that paying more money (A dollar or so) every time they die (Which should happen on average at least a couple times a minute) is an overly severe death penalty.
Agreed. Successfully failing up, however, is intended design in MMORPGs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not going to argue strawmen. I'd rather just agree to disagree.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually,sorry, I wasn't trying to make a strawman, but I think we can make a serious discussion out of this! (Since I have nothing better to do other than finishing painting/sanding walls, and that feels like work right now)
Upon going back and reviewing your original statement, you said that people might find other things to be more important to them, like time (The most common death penalty, really), resources (Which in an MMORPG usually equates to time anyway) and reputation.
So I'm curious about this. Which MMORPG uses reputation as a form of death penalty? I suppose it would work on some sort of PvP side, having a ranking system... is that what you mean?
So far as time/resources, I think most people would rather lose time/resources than money.
I'm under the impression that if you asked most people if they would rather lose time (Say, in the form of lost experience/gold penalty) or real life money, most people would rather pick the first.
Though, upon deeper examination, it might be because they'd rather not think of their own time as being equivalent to money, and if you CAN pay for your losses in money, then it might feel like a P2W type situation. People generally don't want to associate what they earn in game (Through time and effort) to be directly translatable to money and vice versa. Though sometimes it is (Any form of RMT that gives in game advantages.)
(Feel free to NOT respond to this if you don't want to talk about something that is, in fact, pretty meaningless and just being used to avoid real work.)
Well, it is just that I don't consider a temporary negative buff a real penalty. And it works fine in a non instanced world if you put a timer on it instead. But it rarely is more than an anooyance in GW, I have loads of consumables that removes it there which I have farmed on holiday event.
I was more thinking of the classical penalties like XP, gold or items. Stuff like that doesn't help at all. Debuffing anyone who dies helps somewhat but since it isn't permamnent there will always be ways to get rid of that debuff for the cost of some time.
Dying is hard to penalize good. Pen and paper games either have perma death or a rez that is rare, expensive and lower you a level or a stat point. But combat is much rarer in P&P, I usually get into 2-3 fights in 8 hours playing (sometimes more or less but average). Of course it differs depending on the DM but still, in 8 hours of MMO playing you get into a lot of fighting so the chances of dying is increased a lot.
The fact that you don't have an active GM doesn't help either. It isn't particularly fun if dying doesn't matter at all but I havn't played a game with good death penalty.
Here anways is my suggestion how it should work: Everytime you get rezzed you get a permanent wound you only can heal inside a temple (usually in a town). Wounds could be like the debuffs in dragonage but you should be able to see them on your avatar (bandages, blood and similar). Let it be random (unless you have collision detection) how bad the wound is but it should be harder and harder to adventure and sooner or later you must visit that temple.
It really doesn't have to cost goldin the temple even if that is a possibility, the important thing is that dying= bad.