Originally posted by Benthon Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by Benthon
Originally posted by popinjay We'll see in two months when all the six month subscriptions sold during beta expire.
A lot of people are waiting for that for sure (including some people at Blizzard).
If you see servers merging around that time and transfers flying around, you can be sure Trion was playing fast and loose with the numbers just like Mythic was doing, and people were just waiting for subs to expire/new games to come out.
If you're banking on "all those 6 month subsciptions sold during beta" to expire and show Trion's true colors, I can tell you you're going to be disappointed. Most gamers nowadays don't have enough faith in new games and are much more skeptical. If the 1 month and 3 month subscriptions are already renewed, chances are the community isn't getting much smaller due to people waiting for their 6 month to expire.
Personally I'm not banking on anything. I don't have stock in RIFT or GW2. I just play the games and read about them.
But my personal guess is there is a ton of people with six month subs who signed up after only playing the game a short time in beta, when it was great because they only showed you a tiny bit of content at a time.
Once all those people got to 50 in the first month, they literally have to wait until Trion adds more content. The problem is most of it has been so easy that it's been devoured as soon as it was released.
All you have now is heavy raid content really. But since Trion got most of WoW's subs (or so they claim) it must be a shock for them to see that most of them don't really want to raid: they want fluff, pets, flying mounts, and more solo content they had in WoW.
They also expected to have things WoW DIDN'T have but other games do like housing, boats, and other good things.
Not really much 'next gen' in any of what RiFt delivered as opposed to what they promised. >>(Red) I respectfully have a opposite guess. Not because I have stock in either as well, but just because most people don't get a long-term subscription for most MMO's. >> (Yellow) I'd have to agree that the content is quite limited. Raider-type people are devouring the raids and casuals are devouring everything else. I think drawing conclusions based on what a stereotypical WoW player wants, and applying them to Rift's subscriber base is a bit baseless. No information is given to us on what the large majority playerbase wants. >> (Green) If they did and don't find these things it's them fooling themselves, not Trion. >>(Light Blue) The meaning of "next-gen" was explained in detail by a developer before the game came out and explain what they meant. However, it was definitely misinterepted by almost everyone to be what the generally accepted definition of "Next-Gen" means. I agree that it was more to catch eyes. Don't get me wrong.. Rift is a 'good game' in the same sense that LOTRO, AoC and War are 'good games'. It just happens to have one thing those others don't/didn't have.. less bugs. But that's not the main reason I play a game simply because it has less bugs.
Vanguard was a game filled with bugs but I played that for a year because it offered so much content, diversity, land size/exploration, races, classes.. you name it.
Rift by comparsion was a 'perfect game' but doesn't have much to it. Basic questing, less than basic crafting, small world, lacking good PvP environments/factions, average lore/story, no housing, the typical things you find in 'old gen' games.
Originally posted by Benthon Originally posted by popinjay
Because.. it's... raiding.
News flash: most of those people who came over from WoW to Rift are tired of raiding lootwheels they just left, so why would they want to embark on that all over again as the same endgame one month's time later?
Run dungeons 17-50 with your leveling/rifts to mix it up. Hit 50. Do the same dungeons on 'expert mode' (kind of laughable after the nerfs) everyday. Do your dailies for rep everyday. Rinse repeat.
How exactly did you come up with "Most of those people"? The reason many of my friends and guildmembers went to Rift was just a new take on WoW, updated graphics, and a fresh start. However, I'm sure some DID come to Rift that were tired of raiding lootwheels and I'm sure they probably aren't even playing any longer. Just including "most of these people" and a "large majority" doesn't make your post any more valid. Probably because according to Trion's VP, 600k came from WoW to Rift.
Given that most of WoW's base is casual it stands to reason that most of them don't really like raiding anymore than they did in WoW.
Everyone always has the anectodal "My friends and I..." as if that means it speaks for everyone. But you have to look at overall demos to understand what type of fan Rift just got from WoW with the targeted television adverts.
The thing that sucks is I like Rift. Its just too dead to enjoy.
I think warriors being absolutely worthless in PvP and pretty piss poor at soloing in PvE drove a lot of potential people away. Its funny seeing no one play warriors. The game is 40% mages, 59% rogues and 1% warriors.
Hah. Drop the warrior QQ. I find myself still very competitive in PVP and topping charts in raids. Seems like a playstyle issue, friend.
LOL. Keep telling yourself that while you sit at the bottom of the Damage Done chart in every single WF. Meanwhile, myself and the other rogues and mages are not only tanking better than you in PvP(because we can outheal your pathetic dps), but doing FAR more damage.
If you think that's good for the game... you're not helping.
I Just have to say I find this comment hilarious. I bought the game at release and only played for my free month. At the time when I quit they were about to come out with a patch to stop warrior dominance in raids and pvp and to give mages a shot at actually being able to kill something other the regular questing mob (well pyro mages were pretty solid as long as they stayed in their little circle and i enjoyed my chloro/lock when I played). Anyway I have nothing to contribute to this conversation other than observing how the devs changed from warriors dominating everyone to warriors getting dominated by everyone.
The thing that sucks is I like Rift. Its just too dead to enjoy.
I think warriors being absolutely worthless in PvP and pretty piss poor at soloing in PvE drove a lot of potential people away. Its funny seeing no one play warriors. The game is 40% mages, 59% rogues and 1% warriors.
Hah. Drop the warrior QQ. I find myself still very competitive in PVP and topping charts in raids. Seems like a playstyle issue, friend.
LOL. Keep telling yourself that while you sit at the bottom of the Damage Done chart in every single WF. Meanwhile, myself and the other rogues and mages are not only tanking better than you in PvP(because we can outheal your pathetic dps), but doing FAR more damage.
If you think that's good for the game... you're not helping.
I Just have to say I find this comment hilarious. I bought the game at release and only played for my free month. At the time when I quit they were about to come out with a patch to stop warrior dominance in raids and pvp and to give mages a shot at actually being able to kill something other the regular questing mob (well pyro mages were pretty solid as long as they stayed in their little circle and i enjoyed my chloro/lock when I played). Anyway I have nothing to contribute to this conversation other than observing how the devs changed from warriors dominating everyone to warriors getting dominated by everyone.
Uhmmmm did ayone thought Rift had a different "game formula" that WoW has???
I think someone would have had to been on the moon to think people shouldn't have expected anything less than a different thing from WoW.
I'm not talking about people who played in beta who saw all the WoW in the game, came back and got 'you troll!" for saying it was just like WoW.
I'm talking about Trion themselves and how they marketed the game pre-launch. People did expect something different. ("We're not in Azeroth anymore!") Remember that?
I guess you'll call them stupid or suckers or whatever, but they did think Rift was going to be different than WoW and that's why their boards are having so many complaints, espeically the PvP side.
News flash: most of those people who came over from WoW to Rift are tired of raiding lootwheels they just left, so why would they want to embark on that all over again as the same endgame one month's time later?
Run dungeons 17-50 with your leveling/rifts to mix it up. Hit 50. Do the same dungeons on 'expert mode' (kind of laughable after the nerfs) everyday. Do your dailies for rep everyday. Rinse repeat.
How exactly did you come up with "Most of those people"? The reason many of my friends and guildmembers went to Rift was just a new take on WoW, updated graphics, and a fresh start. However, I'm sure some DID come to Rift that were tired of raiding lootwheels and I'm sure they probably aren't even playing any longer.
Just including "most of these people" and a "large majority" doesn't make your post any more valid.
Probably because according to Trion's VP, 600k came from WoW to Rift.
Given that most of WoW's base is casual it stands to reason that most of them don't really like raiding anymore than they did in WoW.
Everyone always has the anectodal "My friends and I..." as if that means it speaks for everyone. But you have to look at overall demos to understand what type of fan Rift just got from WoW with the targeted television adverts.
So then what lootwheel are they on exactly? You say they're casual and don't raid, yet say they don't like the lootwheel that is raiding. So how are they embarking on the lootwheel by being casual and not raiding?
So the casual playerbase doesn't raid, doesn't obtain high-end lootwheel gear, and spends time collecting fluffy collectibles and achievements.
To take an opposite standpoint, what if the casual player didn't like raiding in WoW, not for the lootwheel but for the difficulty in finding a guild or the community, but wanted to start anew in Rift?
What if most of the playerbase that moved from WoW was disgruntled raiders or players that were just plain tired of WoW?
These are all questions you do not have answers to. No television commercial can give you them either. I wasn't trying to do the whole "My friends and I did this, so this applies to a large group!" analogy, more just opening up that there are more than just people that hated one lootwheel and (for some reason a large majority?) jumped to another lootwheel knowingly.
I understand that Vanguard was your lovechild, that's wonderful. But Rift for sure has done more correct (not genre-shaping) than Vanguard did.
Uhmmmm did ayone thought Rift had a different "game formula" that WoW has???
I think someone would have had to been on the moon to think people shouldn't have expected anything less than a different thing from WoW.
I'm not talking about people who played in beta who saw all the WoW in the game, came back and got 'you troll!" for saying it was just like WoW.
I'm talking about Trion themselves and how they marketed the game pre-launch. People did expect something different.
I guess you'll call them stupid or suckers or whatever, but they did think Rift was going to be different than WoW and that's why their boards are having so many complaints, espeically the PvP side.
I would never never call people that
I guess that is what you have free trials for...to try a game before buying it...an option more than recommended specially in MMos where you have to spend your time & your money to move on
Uhmmmm did ayone thought Rift had a different "game formula" that WoW has???
I think someone would have had to been on the moon to think people shouldn't have expected anything less than a different thing from WoW.
I'm not talking about people who played in beta who saw all the WoW in the game, came back and got 'you troll!" for saying it was just like WoW.
I'm talking about Trion themselves and how they marketed the game pre-launch. People did expect something different.
I guess you'll call them stupid or suckers or whatever, but they did think Rift was going to be different than WoW and that's why their boards are having so many complaints, espeically the PvP side.
Having 1 million registered Beta accounts and a free, open beta as well as a assload of reviews from every well-established and garbage review sites doesn't exactly leave the many people who were interested in a different game blindfolded and jumping into a unknown ocean.
Uhmmmm did anyone think Rift had a different "game formula" that WoW has??? I think it´s pretty clear they both play thay same way....Rift even has more "options" than WoW due to it´s dinamic content....
Still has major content while ppl still flaming on it without even tried it.... and this month new patch "Waves of Madness" is coming out.... I belive there is nothing to regreat in terms of content to this game that has been out for 3 monthns? and most people haven´t even started raiding.....
PURE TROLOLOLOLOL that is what it´s called.
Perhaps on your side, or maybe it's just an attachment to ignorance but the game I played in beta and the announcements given by Trion- while metioning there would be dungeons and raids- never implied that it would be the emphasized PvE at endgame. Had they named it Raid, then yes it would have been obvious.
What they did was take the game the way it was in beta, and the way most beta players expected it to be at release and have only made it more and more like WoW. So they have updated graphics, a more complex talent system, and absolutely nothing else WoW doesn't offer (and less of what they do offer). So much for "breaking out of the standard molds"- unless you love raiding. See below.
"I really believe that the future is extremely bright for this particular kind of content.
For the moment, we're focused right now on making sure that we have enough coverage on dynamic content, and really making sure to nail both Rifts and Invasions as best we can, as opposed to being focused on, say, "Look! Invasion from the plane of Guys With Top Hats! EEEEEEK!"
This dynamic game that plays out in the existing world is something that has a hell of a lot of potential, both for interesting content and new kinds of dynamic happenings in the world, on top of Rifts, Invasions, Defenses, and other fun things people are doing.
On top of that, there's also having it work at different scales, to make sure there are great things for solo people to do...for groups...for raids.. It really lets us break out of some of the standard molds of existing MMOs and do more to make sure there's always something fun and fitting to do when you're online, in a way that brings some of that all important "we're in this together" social feeling back into MMOs."
Of course its' spin. Many other mainstream mmo's have done the same, and for example, Age of Conan reportedly 'shipped' over 1.4 million copies when it first launched, only to see a massive decline in subscribership 6-months out, based upon 'community' insights, which is what I suspect the trend will be seen, but not necessarily reported by Trion.
However, I can understand if Rift does better than many other manistream mmorpg's from WoW refugees that are looking for another themepark, but we'll always see the hype on box sales and shipments, but no official press releases on subscribership; that would do nothing but break the illusion that a publisher or developer is trying to portray.
you can't really compare Rift and Age of Conan. AoC was totally broken when it launched. 95% of feats didn't work. Skills were almost all broken/bugged. Quests where broken after level 40ish...Everything in Rift WORKS and works well. The only major bug that I've ever seen for myself was the weapon stacking, but they fixed that about 6 hours after it launched...Rift is a good game. It doesn't matter what the subscriptions, box sales, Trion's CEO's Mom's underpants color...It's a good game.
if you don't like quest driven games, then of course you aren't going to like Rift, but that doesn't make it a bad game, so stop bashing it...
Just a thought about AoC launching broken. If you played or even read about AO, how was this a surprise to anyone? Remember when they sold an expansion pack with features printed on the box not available in game(player shops)? Remember when they launched Shadowlands and Pandemonium was unfinished and even though people were eligable to enter it, they were not allowed to because the zone was not done and void of mobs?
This thread, to me, is just another example as to why I've said before and still believe that the gaming industry needs better standards. By standards, I mean description standards. I can't remember what thread I said it in, but it was mostly about how gaming companies say things about a game and how relative that is to another game claiming the same thing.
Subscription numbers are always talked about, but what do they really mean? As some have hinted at, it's spin. Do they mean active accounts? Do they count a subscriber that has 6 accounts as one person or 6? What about people who still subscribe, but don't actually play because they bought a preset amount of time? Why do they discuss the difference between box sales and downloads?
We get so much misleading information as consumers in all forms of media. Every car is the best, but is explained by who and what year in very small print. If it has to be in small print, should they even be saying it? Gaming is becoming the same way. Every statement of greatness has to come with an explanation that may or may not be even true itself. They purposely report partial or not complete information so that it can have whatever spin they want put on it without "technically" lying to consumers. With television being way more interactive, I'm surprised commercials don't have ToS like popups that have to be read to understand the actual facts with the company knowing most won't take the time to read it all.
You don't see a loot grinding wheel in Rift at 50? You don't see the massive repuatation grind you embark on in Shimmersands, IPP, and Stillmoor the minute you get level 48 for crappy gear?
Crafted gear that sits on the auction house because it's not worth anything compared to the dungeon wheel/loot, so people who just want to play/craft find no use in doing it for a stale auction house?
You don't see a loot grinding wheel in Rift at 50? You don't see the massive repuatation grind you embark on in Shimmersands, IPP, and Stillmoor the minute you get level 48 for crappy gear?
Crafted gear that sits on the auction house because it's not worth anything compared to the dungeon wheel/loot, so people who just want to play/craft find no use in doing it for a stale auction house?
Really? Are you sure you are playing Rift?
I see a loot wheel for raiders, not for casuals who enjoy "housing, pets, collectibles, vanity items" etc.
Originally posted by Benthon Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by Benthon
So then what lootwheel are they on exactly?
You don't see a loot grinding wheel in Rift at 50? You don't see the massive repuatation grind you embark on in Shimmersands, IPP, and Stillmoor the minute you get level 48 for crappy gear?
Crafted gear that sits on the auction house because it's not worth anything compared to the dungeon wheel/loot, so people who just want to play/craft find no use in doing it for a stale auction house?
Really? Are you sure you are playing Rift?
I see a loot wheel for raiders, not for casuals who enjoy "housing, pets, collectibles, vanity items" etc.
Yep.
Precisely, so what do the casuals do if the endgame content is all raiding and you max a toon in one month without trying due to the ease of EXP in the game?
PvP? It's kind of stale because it's limiting. Typical 'two sides we hate them" in a box. That's boring.
Craft? Crafted gear is worthless. It's worth nothing because raiders don't buy it and casuals can get almost as good gear just doing quests. Even if they sold some there's nothing to spend money on in the game because...
Housing? There is none. No furniture to buy and place.
Pets? Please. Can't capture any, can't tame any. The only 'pets' in the game are easily gotten or aren't worth getting (Shiny artifact turtle FTL)
The point is.. casuals have nothing to do in the game at 50 unless they get on the raid loot train.
Originally posted by Zzad Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by Zzad
Uhmmmm did ayone thought Rift had a different "game formula" that WoW has???
I think someone would have had to been on the moon to think people shouldn't have expected anything less than a different thing from WoW.
I'm not talking about people who played in beta who saw all the WoW in the game, came back and got 'you troll!" for saying it was just like WoW.
I'm talking about Trion themselves and how they marketed the game pre-launch. People did expect something different.
I guess you'll call them stupid or suckers or whatever, but they did think Rift was going to be different than WoW and that's why their boards are having so many complaints, espeically the PvP side. I would never never call people that I guess that is what you have free trials for...to try a game before buying it...an option more than recommended specially in MMos where you have to spend your time & your money to move on To answer your point about why people would think that:
Free trails aside, you ask why would anyone ever have that idea. I'm just showing you.
And even though you can level from 1-50 in a month, you can't level 1-50 in a seven day trial so one wouldn't have any understanding that the endgame is all raiding from playing that.
This discussion is pointless. Everyone who played the beta or trials or read the forums who didn't spot the similarities with WoW, really should start working on being less clueless or lazy. I'm not saying that there aren't distinct differences as well, the soul and rift system foremostly among them, but the resemblances aren't hard to spot as well.
Besides that, it's not what the OP was about which was about Rift figures and how in his opinion Trion was lying about them.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Everyone who played the beta trials or read the forums who didn't spot the similarities with WoW, really should start working on being less clueless or lazy.
Originally posted by me earlier in the thread:
I'm not talking about people who played in beta who saw all the WoW in the game, came back and got 'you troll!" for saying it was just like WoW.
Yeah, that was covered and stated.
The point is with this campaign...
...it's hard to take people serious when they say people shouldn't have expected anything different than WoW.
As far as someone should be reading forums and knowing RIFT was pretty much WoW jr.. look back in the threads.
I bet I can pull out ten people claiming that in beta and promply getting 100 fanboys saying "Troll" and "liar" and "You don't know wtf you're talking about".
So now you're saying people should have been listening to them all along? Strange.
What this game industry need is a company or website with a strict Michelin type of grading system. This company will grade how good the game just like they did it for Restaurant. Customers / players won't get screwed by forum post, blogs, reviews and dev over the top bs talk. The star rating will tell how good is the game is.
...it's hard to take people serious when they say people shouldn't have expected anything different than WoW.
It's a commercial campaign. If people take commercials literally to a fault and don't see them for what they are, commercials and build a whole fairytale dreamland around them, then I pity them. They'll be clearly victims over and over again for whatever commercial next they completely believe to fulfill their dream wishes. Next you're going to tell me that when EA/BW launch their CGI commercials for SWTOR, that it'll be completely BW's fault if the game and characters don't look exactly like the CGI trailers
As far as someone should be reading forums and knowing RIFT was pretty much WoW jr.. look back in the threads.
Shrug. People who blind themselves to ignorance even after playing trials, betas or reading up are setting themselves up for falling for the same circle of hype=>crushed expectations=> bitter, disillusioned MMO gamer over and over again.
If there are people who want to jump into a new MMORPG without doing a degree of research or reading up about them, then they should also be ready to accept the consequences of such hit-or-miss impulsive behaviour.
I bet I can pull out ten people claiming that in beta and promply getting 100 fanboys saying "Troll" and "liar" and "You don't know wtf you're talking about".
So now you're saying people should have been listening to them all along? Strange.
Like I said, everyone who used their brains and have at least learnt a little from lessons of the past should have developed the ability to evaluate all kinds of info available on the net: Rift has similarities and differences with WoW, just like other MMO's do.
Smart or experienced MMO gamers, which the majority should be after years of playing MMO's, should figure out by now if those similarities and differences together tell enough whether it's a game that suits their taste or not.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What this game industry need is a company or website with a strict Michelin type of grading system. This company will grade how good the game just like they did it for Restaurant. Customers / players won't get screwed by forum post, blogs, reviews and dev over the top bs talk. The star rating will tell how good is the game is.
MMO ratings are a subjective beast. What if you like raiding and I don't? What if Bob enjoys crafting, but Suzie thinks it's pointless? What if Jim's a fan of PVP but Jack doesn't want to get ganked? What if all of us happened to be reviewers who determined the ratings? What a mess that would be.
Different people have different ratings for different aspects of MMOs and trying to aggregate them is futile. A game's pvp could be top notch, but at least a quarter of the playerbase doesn't care. A game's raiding could be awe-inspiring, but at least a quarter of the playerbase doesn't care. The game could be the ultimate sandbox with limitless customization, but at least a quarter of the playerbase just might not care.
Also, video game media is notoriously awful at ratings.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing. Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it. Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago. Currently Playing: Champions Online.
...it's hard to take people serious when they say people shouldn't have expected anything different than WoW.
It's a commercial campaign. If people take commercials literally to a fault and don't see them for what they are, commercials and build a whole fairytale dreamland around them, then I pity them. They'll be clearly victims over and over again for whatever commercial next they completely believe to fulfill their dream wishes. Next you're going to tell me that when EA/BW launch their CGI commercials for SWTOR, that it'll be completely BW's fault if the game and characters don't look exactly like the CGI trailers
As far as someone should be reading forums and knowing RIFT was pretty much WoW jr.. look back in the threads.
Shrug. People who blind themselves to ignorance even after playing trials, betas or reading up are setting themselves up for falling for the same circle of hype=>crushed expectations=> bitter, disillusioned MMO gamer over and over again.
If there are people who want to jump into a new MMORPG without doing a degree of research or reading up about them, then they should also be ready to accept the consequences of such hit-or-miss impulsive behaviour.
I bet I can pull out ten people claiming that in beta and promply getting 100 fanboys saying "Troll" and "liar" and "You don't know wtf you're talking about".
So now you're saying people should have been listening to them all along? Strange.
Like I said, everyone who used their brains and have at least learnt a little from lessons of the past should have developed the ability to evaluate all kinds of info available on the net: Rift has similarities and differences with WoW, just like other MMO's do.
Smart or experienced MMO gamers, which the majority should be after years of playing MMO's, should figure out by now if those similarities and differences together tell enough whether it's a game that suits their taste or not.
I ussually like your posts but you're starting to show your Rift fanboy side here Mr. Mav.
Rift suggested that they were a "next gen" game, and they spent thousands of dollars marketing that they were bigger, better, and far different from WoW, with their slogan seen above. What the game turned out to be was WoW with shiny graphics and so few differences you can count them on your fingers.
While you're right, people should have seen it coming (I did), it doesn't mean they didn't try to fool their audience.
We'll see in two months when all the six month subscriptions sold during beta expire.
A lot of people are waiting for that for sure (including some people at Blizzard).
If you see servers merging around that time and transfers flying around, you can be sure Trion was playing fast and loose with the numbers just like Mythic was doing, and people were just waiting for subs to expire/new games to come out.
If you're banking on "all those 6 month subsciptions sold during beta" to expire and show Trion's true colors, I can tell you you're going to be disappointed. Most gamers nowadays don't have enough faith in new games and are much more skeptical. If the 1 month and 3 month subscriptions are already renewed, chances are the community isn't getting much smaller due to people waiting for their 6 month to expire.
Er, I'd be one of those 6 months folks. Seemed like a decent deal at the time, but I tired of Rift very rapidly (less than 2 months) and I haven't logged in since.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I ussually like your posts but you're starting to show your Rift fanboy side here Mr. Mav.
Rift suggested that they were a "next gen" game, and they spent thousands of dollars marketing that they were bigger, better, and far different from WoW, with their slogan seen above. What the game turned out to be was WoW with shiny graphics and so few differences you can count them on your fingers.
While you're right, people should have seen it coming (I did), it doesn't mean they didn't try to fool their audience.
Lol! I'm not even playing Rift, nor do I have the intention to
That doesn't mean that I can't look at the available info objectively. I knew what kind of MMO Rift was after the first beta I was in, it didn't mean that I knew all the available features but I had enough of a picture drawn for me to be able to decide whether Rift was a game for me or not. Commercials are nothing but appetizers, slogans are merely funny, I'm disappointed in anyone who hasn't learnt after years of gaming and MMO gaming to look past those at the core of a matter.
Their 'next gen' remark was explained very well in interviews as well, even more, I learnt about what was next gen about it by following the forums.
If people are unable to do all that... well, what can I say?
I can only shake my head then at the observation that (some) people apparently don't grow or learn anything after all their years of following and playing games.
I am serious in this, people should have learnt by now how to appraise and evaluate hype, commercials and advertorials, not only about games but in general, else they're destined to be a toy of advertising for the rest of their life.
Blaming companies is blaming external circumstances, that way people will never learn and grow smart, because the reason they get suckered or disappointed in life will always be 'because of others', never because of themselves or their lack of judgement or learning from mistakes.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The only thing I can say to that is... well.. If a game has 1 million accounts (picking numbers out of the air here) and its various fansites, official forums, and sites like these total numbers of 300,000... where do you think the other 700,000 got their information?
The average gamer is not on these forums pre-release for every game.
The thing that sucks is I like Rift. Its just too dead to enjoy.
I think warriors being absolutely worthless in PvP and pretty piss poor at soloing in PvE drove a lot of potential people away. Its funny seeing no one play warriors. The game is 40% mages, 59% rogues and 1% warriors.
Hah. Drop the warrior QQ. I find myself still very competitive in PVP and topping charts in raids. Seems like a playstyle issue, friend.
LOL. Keep telling yourself that while you sit at the bottom of the Damage Done chart in every single WF. Meanwhile, myself and the other rogues and mages are not only tanking better than you in PvP(because we can outheal your pathetic dps), but doing FAR more damage.
If you think that's good for the game... you're not helping.
Uh. I sit at the top of most of the charts and I normally queue solo. When I queue with my guild we ROFLstomp and I'm always top. Warrior tanks aren't great in PvP, I'll admit, bar a build including heavy pointed Void Knight (and nerfs kinda ruined that one).
If I mentioned anything about warrior tanks being bad, being good for the game, please point it out. Otherwise, move your passion towards another thread. /Offtopic
Gosh those poor Clerics, not even a full 1% of players in WFs. Glad I didn't play the game!
The only thing I can say to that is... well.. If a game has 1 million accounts (picking numbers out of the air here) and its various fansites, official forums, and sites like these total numbers of 300,000... where do you think the other 700,000 got their information?
The average gamer is not on these forums pre-release for every game.
? You can read the official forums without having a registered account. Beta, trials, forums, guildies and other MMO friends, in this day and age any lack of knowledge or being uninformed is something that can only happen if people have been lacking in informing themselves for whatever reason. Which is fine, but being shocked that a game is totally different than what you expected and complaining after not doing some manner of investigating beforehand is like buying products via tv shopping channels and then complain that it isn't what they thought it would be based on the commercials they saw. A bit silly, imo.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
If you're banking on "all those 6 month subsciptions sold during beta" to expire and show Trion's true colors, I can tell you you're going to be disappointed. Most gamers nowadays don't have enough faith in new games and are much more skeptical. If the 1 month and 3 month subscriptions are already renewed, chances are the community isn't getting much smaller due to people waiting for their 6 month to expire.
Personally I'm not banking on anything. I don't have stock in RIFT or GW2. I just play the games and read about them.
But my personal guess is there is a ton of people with six month subs who signed up after only playing the game a short time in beta, when it was great because they only showed you a tiny bit of content at a time.
Once all those people got to 50 in the first month, they literally have to wait until Trion adds more content. The problem is most of it has been so easy that it's been devoured as soon as it was released.
All you have now is heavy raid content really. But since Trion got most of WoW's subs (or so they claim) it must be a shock for them to see that most of them don't really want to raid: they want fluff, pets, flying mounts, and more solo content they had in WoW.
They also expected to have things WoW DIDN'T have but other games do like housing, boats, and other good things.
Not really much 'next gen' in any of what RiFt delivered as opposed to what they promised.
>>(Red) I respectfully have a opposite guess. Not because I have stock in either as well, but just because most people don't get a long-term subscription for most MMO's.
>> (Yellow) I'd have to agree that the content is quite limited. Raider-type people are devouring the raids and casuals are devouring everything else. I think drawing conclusions based on what a stereotypical WoW player wants, and applying them to Rift's subscriber base is a bit baseless. No information is given to us on what the large majority playerbase wants.
>> (Green) If they did and don't find these things it's them fooling themselves, not Trion.
>>(Light Blue) The meaning of "next-gen" was explained in detail by a developer before the game came out and explain what they meant. However, it was definitely misinterepted by almost everyone to be what the generally accepted definition of "Next-Gen" means. I agree that it was more to catch eyes.
Don't get me wrong.. Rift is a 'good game' in the same sense that LOTRO, AoC and War are 'good games'. It just happens to have one thing those others don't/didn't have.. less bugs. But that's not the main reason I play a game simply because it has less bugs.
Vanguard was a game filled with bugs but I played that for a year because it offered so much content, diversity, land size/exploration, races, classes.. you name it.
Rift by comparsion was a 'perfect game' but doesn't have much to it. Basic questing, less than basic crafting, small world, lacking good PvP environments/factions, average lore/story, no housing, the typical things you find in 'old gen' games.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Because.. it's... raiding.
News flash: most of those people who came over from WoW to Rift are tired of raiding lootwheels they just left, so why would they want to embark on that all over again as the same endgame one month's time later?
Run dungeons 17-50 with your leveling/rifts to mix it up. Hit 50. Do the same dungeons on 'expert mode' (kind of laughable after the nerfs) everyday. Do your dailies for rep everyday. Rinse repeat.
How exactly did you come up with "Most of those people"? The reason many of my friends and guildmembers went to Rift was just a new take on WoW, updated graphics, and a fresh start. However, I'm sure some DID come to Rift that were tired of raiding lootwheels and I'm sure they probably aren't even playing any longer.
Just including "most of these people" and a "large majority" doesn't make your post any more valid.
Probably because according to Trion's VP, 600k came from WoW to Rift.
Given that most of WoW's base is casual it stands to reason that most of them don't really like raiding anymore than they did in WoW.
Everyone always has the anectodal "My friends and I..." as if that means it speaks for everyone. But you have to look at overall demos to understand what type of fan Rift just got from WoW with the targeted television adverts.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I Just have to say I find this comment hilarious. I bought the game at release and only played for my free month. At the time when I quit they were about to come out with a patch to stop warrior dominance in raids and pvp and to give mages a shot at actually being able to kill something other the regular questing mob (well pyro mages were pretty solid as long as they stayed in their little circle and i enjoyed my chloro/lock when I played). Anyway I have nothing to contribute to this conversation other than observing how the devs changed from warriors dominating everyone to warriors getting dominated by everyone.
DIdn't know this. That is pretty funny, though.
I'm not talking about people who played in beta who saw all the WoW in the game, came back and got 'you troll!" for saying it was just like WoW.
I'm talking about Trion themselves and how they marketed the game pre-launch. People did expect something different. ("We're not in Azeroth anymore!") Remember that?
I guess you'll call them stupid or suckers or whatever, but they did think Rift was going to be different than WoW and that's why their boards are having so many complaints, espeically the PvP side.
"TO MICHAEL!"
So then what lootwheel are they on exactly? You say they're casual and don't raid, yet say they don't like the lootwheel that is raiding. So how are they embarking on the lootwheel by being casual and not raiding?
So the casual playerbase doesn't raid, doesn't obtain high-end lootwheel gear, and spends time collecting fluffy collectibles and achievements.
To take an opposite standpoint, what if the casual player didn't like raiding in WoW, not for the lootwheel but for the difficulty in finding a guild or the community, but wanted to start anew in Rift?
What if most of the playerbase that moved from WoW was disgruntled raiders or players that were just plain tired of WoW?
These are all questions you do not have answers to. No television commercial can give you them either. I wasn't trying to do the whole "My friends and I did this, so this applies to a large group!" analogy, more just opening up that there are more than just people that hated one lootwheel and (for some reason a large majority?) jumped to another lootwheel knowingly.
I understand that Vanguard was your lovechild, that's wonderful. But Rift for sure has done more correct (not genre-shaping) than Vanguard did.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I would never never call people that
I guess that is what you have free trials for...to try a game before buying it...an option more than recommended specially in MMos where you have to spend your time & your money to move on
Having 1 million registered Beta accounts and a free, open beta as well as a assload of reviews from every well-established and garbage review sites doesn't exactly leave the many people who were interested in a different game blindfolded and jumping into a unknown ocean.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
Perhaps on your side, or maybe it's just an attachment to ignorance but the game I played in beta and the announcements given by Trion- while metioning there would be dungeons and raids- never implied that it would be the emphasized PvE at endgame. Had they named it Raid, then yes it would have been obvious.
What they did was take the game the way it was in beta, and the way most beta players expected it to be at release and have only made it more and more like WoW. So they have updated graphics, a more complex talent system, and absolutely nothing else WoW doesn't offer (and less of what they do offer). So much for "breaking out of the standard molds"- unless you love raiding. See below.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/431/feature/4686
Scott Hartsman:
"I really believe that the future is extremely bright for this particular kind of content.
For the moment, we're focused right now on making sure that we have enough coverage on dynamic content, and really making sure to nail both Rifts and Invasions as best we can, as opposed to being focused on, say, "Look! Invasion from the plane of Guys With Top Hats! EEEEEEK!"
This dynamic game that plays out in the existing world is something that has a hell of a lot of potential, both for interesting content and new kinds of dynamic happenings in the world, on top of Rifts, Invasions, Defenses, and other fun things people are doing.
On top of that, there's also having it work at different scales, to make sure there are great things for solo people to do...for groups...for raids.. It really lets us break out of some of the standard molds of existing MMOs and do more to make sure there's always something fun and fitting to do when you're online, in a way that brings some of that all important "we're in this together" social feeling back into MMOs."
Just a thought about AoC launching broken. If you played or even read about AO, how was this a surprise to anyone? Remember when they sold an expansion pack with features printed on the box not available in game(player shops)? Remember when they launched Shadowlands and Pandemonium was unfinished and even though people were eligable to enter it, they were not allowed to because the zone was not done and void of mobs?
This thread, to me, is just another example as to why I've said before and still believe that the gaming industry needs better standards. By standards, I mean description standards. I can't remember what thread I said it in, but it was mostly about how gaming companies say things about a game and how relative that is to another game claiming the same thing.
Subscription numbers are always talked about, but what do they really mean? As some have hinted at, it's spin. Do they mean active accounts? Do they count a subscriber that has 6 accounts as one person or 6? What about people who still subscribe, but don't actually play because they bought a preset amount of time? Why do they discuss the difference between box sales and downloads?
We get so much misleading information as consumers in all forms of media. Every car is the best, but is explained by who and what year in very small print. If it has to be in small print, should they even be saying it? Gaming is becoming the same way. Every statement of greatness has to come with an explanation that may or may not be even true itself. They purposely report partial or not complete information so that it can have whatever spin they want put on it without "technically" lying to consumers. With television being way more interactive, I'm surprised commercials don't have ToS like popups that have to be read to understand the actual facts with the company knowing most won't take the time to read it all.
Crafted gear that sits on the auction house because it's not worth anything compared to the dungeon wheel/loot, so people who just want to play/craft find no use in doing it for a stale auction house?
Really? Are you sure you are playing Rift?
"TO MICHAEL!"
I see a loot wheel for raiders, not for casuals who enjoy "housing, pets, collectibles, vanity items" etc.
Yep.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
You don't see a loot grinding wheel in Rift at 50? You don't see the massive repuatation grind you embark on in Shimmersands, IPP, and Stillmoor the minute you get level 48 for crappy gear?
Crafted gear that sits on the auction house because it's not worth anything compared to the dungeon wheel/loot, so people who just want to play/craft find no use in doing it for a stale auction house?
Really? Are you sure you are playing Rift?
I see a loot wheel for raiders, not for casuals who enjoy "housing, pets, collectibles, vanity items" etc.
Yep.
Precisely, so what do the casuals do if the endgame content is all raiding and you max a toon in one month without trying due to the ease of EXP in the game?
PvP? It's kind of stale because it's limiting. Typical 'two sides we hate them" in a box. That's boring.
Craft? Crafted gear is worthless. It's worth nothing because raiders don't buy it and casuals can get almost as good gear just doing quests. Even if they sold some there's nothing to spend money on in the game because...
Housing? There is none. No furniture to buy and place.
Pets? Please. Can't capture any, can't tame any. The only 'pets' in the game are easily gotten or aren't worth getting (Shiny artifact turtle FTL)
The point is.. casuals have nothing to do in the game at 50 unless they get on the raid loot train.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I think someone would have had to been on the moon to think people shouldn't have expected anything less than a different thing from WoW.
I'm not talking about people who played in beta who saw all the WoW in the game, came back and got 'you troll!" for saying it was just like WoW.
I'm talking about Trion themselves and how they marketed the game pre-launch. People did expect something different.
I guess you'll call them stupid or suckers or whatever, but they did think Rift was going to be different than WoW and that's why their boards are having so many complaints, espeically the PvP side.
I would never never call people that
I guess that is what you have free trials for...to try a game before buying it...an option more than recommended specially in MMos where you have to spend your time & your money to move on
To answer your point about why people would think that:
Free trails aside, you ask why would anyone ever have that idea. I'm just showing you.
And even though you can level from 1-50 in a month, you can't level 1-50 in a seven day trial so one wouldn't have any understanding that the endgame is all raiding from playing that.
"TO MICHAEL!"
This discussion is pointless. Everyone who played the beta or trials or read the forums who didn't spot the similarities with WoW, really should start working on being less clueless or lazy. I'm not saying that there aren't distinct differences as well, the soul and rift system foremostly among them, but the resemblances aren't hard to spot as well.
Besides that, it's not what the OP was about which was about Rift figures and how in his opinion Trion was lying about them.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The point is with this campaign...
...it's hard to take people serious when they say people shouldn't have expected anything different than WoW.
As far as someone should be reading forums and knowing RIFT was pretty much WoW jr.. look back in the threads.
I bet I can pull out ten people claiming that in beta and promply getting 100 fanboys saying "Troll" and "liar" and "You don't know wtf you're talking about".
So now you're saying people should have been listening to them all along? Strange.
"TO MICHAEL!"
What this game industry need is a company or website with a strict Michelin type of grading system. This company will grade how good the game just like they did it for Restaurant. Customers / players won't get screwed by forum post, blogs, reviews and dev over the top bs talk. The star rating will tell how good is the game is.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
Like I said, everyone who used their brains and have at least learnt a little from lessons of the past should have developed the ability to evaluate all kinds of info available on the net: Rift has similarities and differences with WoW, just like other MMO's do.
Smart or experienced MMO gamers, which the majority should be after years of playing MMO's, should figure out by now if those similarities and differences together tell enough whether it's a game that suits their taste or not.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
MMO ratings are a subjective beast. What if you like raiding and I don't? What if Bob enjoys crafting, but Suzie thinks it's pointless? What if Jim's a fan of PVP but Jack doesn't want to get ganked? What if all of us happened to be reviewers who determined the ratings? What a mess that would be.
Different people have different ratings for different aspects of MMOs and trying to aggregate them is futile. A game's pvp could be top notch, but at least a quarter of the playerbase doesn't care. A game's raiding could be awe-inspiring, but at least a quarter of the playerbase doesn't care. The game could be the ultimate sandbox with limitless customization, but at least a quarter of the playerbase just might not care.
Also, video game media is notoriously awful at ratings.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing.
Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it.
Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago.
Currently Playing: Champions Online.
I ussually like your posts but you're starting to show your Rift fanboy side here Mr. Mav.
Rift suggested that they were a "next gen" game, and they spent thousands of dollars marketing that they were bigger, better, and far different from WoW, with their slogan seen above. What the game turned out to be was WoW with shiny graphics and so few differences you can count them on your fingers.
While you're right, people should have seen it coming (I did), it doesn't mean they didn't try to fool their audience.
Er, I'd be one of those 6 months folks. Seemed like a decent deal at the time, but I tired of Rift very rapidly (less than 2 months) and I haven't logged in since.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lol! I'm not even playing Rift, nor do I have the intention to
That doesn't mean that I can't look at the available info objectively. I knew what kind of MMO Rift was after the first beta I was in, it didn't mean that I knew all the available features but I had enough of a picture drawn for me to be able to decide whether Rift was a game for me or not. Commercials are nothing but appetizers, slogans are merely funny, I'm disappointed in anyone who hasn't learnt after years of gaming and MMO gaming to look past those at the core of a matter.
Their 'next gen' remark was explained very well in interviews as well, even more, I learnt about what was next gen about it by following the forums.
If people are unable to do all that... well, what can I say?
I can only shake my head then at the observation that (some) people apparently don't grow or learn anything after all their years of following and playing games.
I am serious in this, people should have learnt by now how to appraise and evaluate hype, commercials and advertorials, not only about games but in general, else they're destined to be a toy of advertising for the rest of their life.
Blaming companies is blaming external circumstances, that way people will never learn and grow smart, because the reason they get suckered or disappointed in life will always be 'because of others', never because of themselves or their lack of judgement or learning from mistakes.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The only thing I can say to that is... well.. If a game has 1 million accounts (picking numbers out of the air here) and its various fansites, official forums, and sites like these total numbers of 300,000... where do you think the other 700,000 got their information?
The average gamer is not on these forums pre-release for every game.
Gosh those poor Clerics, not even a full 1% of players in WFs. Glad I didn't play the game!
? You can read the official forums without having a registered account. Beta, trials, forums, guildies and other MMO friends, in this day and age any lack of knowledge or being uninformed is something that can only happen if people have been lacking in informing themselves for whatever reason. Which is fine, but being shocked that a game is totally different than what you expected and complaining after not doing some manner of investigating beforehand is like buying products via tv shopping channels and then complain that it isn't what they thought it would be based on the commercials they saw. A bit silly, imo.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."