Bioware devs talking about combat and how great, heroic its going to be. Sadly E3 didnt show any of this. Especially the live stream they did.
This is one reason why many were underimpressed with this years E3 showing of SWTOR. The Deves themselves in many vid posts have hyped this game. As the youtube vid I linked shows. But from this video is also from a game demo they built to show off the game, not the game itself. This doesnt mean the game wont be a commercial success, but the devs need to slow down on the hype if they cant deliver
Never trust when Bioware hype anything, Dragon Age II is an good example, they hyped DA2 to the skies but in the end the game sucked, was shallow and emty.
TOR will be a snack MMO you eat it fast because you enjoy it but after a short while you feel sick and stop eating.
Nothing personal, but your credibility is like zero. This is what you wrote about Vanguard:
"
Originally posted by elocke
Vanguard. It truly needs a relaunch to bring in a nice population to enjoy the game to its fullest. It's now at the point it should have been at launch.
Vanguard is really a great game to ad not many people are forgiving when it comes to retry a game.
This is what you wrote about LOTRO:
Yes LOTRO's combat is somewhat slower comparing to other MMOs, and it's even slower playing as a Guardian.
Still a really great game, try to get to atleast lvl 30-35 to taste some early 3 man instances and play with your toon.
Or skirmishes to learn how to play in a group and learn your class.
Most people like me who loved for a short time LOTRO will love SWTOR because it takes both of those games and adds so much more in just about every department. I can understand a SWG or Darkfall disgruntled vet posting something like this, but if you liked either of those two previous games, there is absolutely zero reason to say the complete opposite in some generic way about SWTOR. I know this because just about every guild member from my previous large guild on both Vanguard and LOTRO are watering at the mouth to get at this game.
Not really sure why you included Vanguard as you basis for your argument besides maby my feeling about BW and people are not forgiving, I'ts big difference by hyping a game to be the best RPG ever made (Bioware) or release a MMO in crappy stage ( Sigil), If I've missunderstood you please enlighten me with more than one sentence.
About LOTRO argument not really sure what you want to make of it only that I play on occation when I need my MMO fix and having some laughs with friends over a few beers in a raid., been playing lotro on and off since launch but not activly playing.
Well I guess you want me to look like a idiot bashing your beloved game while me the basher playing in your mind the exact same kind of game, take it what you will but it is grasping for straws.
Not really sure why you included Vanguard as you basis for your argument besides maby my feeling about BW and people are not forgiving, I'ts big difference by hyping a game to be the best RPG ever made (Bioware) or release a MMO in crappy stage ( Sigil), If I've missunderstood you please enlighten me with more than one sentence.
About LOTRO argument not really sure what you want to make of it only that I play on occation when I need my MMO fix and having some laughs with friends over a few beers in a raid., been playing lotro on and off since launch but not activly playing.
Well I guess you want me to look like a idiot bashing your beloved game while me the basher playing in your mind the exact same kind of game, take it what you will but it is grasping for straws.
Is it not grasping for straws by judging on DA2 alone? They release one game that isn't great and all of a sudden the whole of Bioware will never release a good game again? Pay no mind to the fact they have multiple studios, each responsible for different games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Actually there is a very valid argument against it, community building. There are hands-on previews that specifically state that grouping is awkward and/or does not really promote grouping with other classes unless it's a spot where absolutely neccessary(flashpoints). Having your own personal branching storyline insures that YOUR story is what you are doing because everyone wants progression. It takes a lot of patiences and a good-heart to spend your time playing a game to advance someone elses progression at the cost of your own. It is a sacrafice that most will not make and that deeply impacts community. As much as people hate WoW you still had a good chance to have the same quests as others and group up. With personal storyline the further you get the less likely it is.
I should state that if you do story in a way that promotes grouping/community then yes that is indeed a step forward. But the way that Bioware is currently handling it is not. It will feel like a single player/co-op leveling experience and that isn't so great in a MMORPG where the entire point is community and socializing.
Even if this is true, what difference will it really make? People only group to do dungeons and harder quests whilst leveling these days. Oh sure you'll get a few people that will group exclusively but the vast majority of MMO players now level solo. How much community building do they get?
SO basically by your reasoning people in SWTOR will mostly level solo, just like in nearly every other MMO, and only grouping when they have to, just like in nearly every other MMO, but they'll get a cool story to play through whilst soloing their way to end game? The only MMO I've played where people spent most of their time grouped was FFxi. WoW, WAR, AOC, Aion are games were people spend the majority of their time leveling playing solo. People make it look like TOR will be the death of group levelling in MMOs when in reality that happened 6-7 years a go
Here's the thing people seem to be missing, even if this is true it only affects your class quests! each planet has long, multi staged 'world quests' you can group up on, there will be flash points throughout the game to group up for, there will be PvP warzones and PvP lakes to group up for. There will be as much to group for in SWTOR as in any other modern MMO.
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
Jeez, there was a 6 hour waiting line at E3 so how many people decided to spend one day of E3 to see SWTOR and miss all the other games that was being shown?
This game had the largest line (longer than Wii-U) at the convention with most people wanting to play more of it afterwards.
The same occurred at Pax. Everyone that played the game and I talked to liked the game. To me the Original Author has passive aggressive issues in addition to having an agenda. This is just like the bashers on this site.
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
Lets also not forget that the WoW/EQ model supports and encourages elitist attitudes, which in turn destroys community even further.
It doesnt matter if SWToR will be successful or that people find the game fun. All new things in life are fun but that new shiny game nostalgia will wear off completely for thousands if not millions of players after a short while once players realize the game has more in common with WoW then any other game on the market. Dispute it all you like but the facts is you cant beat WoW at WoW by using WoW. The only way to compete with Blizzard is breaking the mode and trying something new, innovating and fresh, which sadly takes cajones and willingness to experiment which unfortunetly only indie developers are brave enough to do at this stage in the genre.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Ironically the most eliteist player base I've come across was in FFxi, which was all about grouping. Normal armour or weapons wasn't good enough, it had to be +1 and god help you if you played a class that performed 2% less than the next. Levelling was all about how much exp/hour you could wring out .
Toward the topic of this article, specifically the line about "promises".
Finally a journalist understands, that might be because this guy actually play's MMO's.
Gameinformer " According to the developer, there are four major tenants of the role-playing game experience: exploration, progression, combat, and story. As BioWare tells it, MMOs have already mastered the first three, but they’ve always put story on the backburner.
In other words, BioWare will not be significantly changing the core style of MMO gameplay that has been refined and popularized with titles like EverQuest and World of Warcraft.".
This is part of the reason the game has recieved some negative comments from certain folks. They are doing what most MMO devs have been doing, "innovate" in only very few aspects of the game. Look at Rift, they only really bring something "fresh" with the Rifts(and imo a bit with the classes) and the rest is basically the same with some variants mixed in. SWTOR are doing the same thing but with the story, the rest is MMO 101....
This game for me will probably be a really good single player RPG but I probably won't stick around for the MMO aspect of it. One thing to note is that in that same article the journalist mentions this right before that quote:
"During a presentation before my hands-on time with The Old Republic, BioWare stuck to its company line about how this will be a “genre-changing” MMO, but for the first time in my experience, they broke down what they mean"
Notice how they say its a "genre-changing" MMO. Those are bold claims when you are basically just changing the way story is presented in an MMO (which is actually like an RPG). For that matter I would also say Rift is "genre-changing", this is one of the things I have problems with. Don't sell it as a "next step" in mmo's if its really probably not (my opinion). Although I know this is more of a marketing gimmick than anything else.
I can agree with this 100%. I think the vast majority of old school pre-WoW MMO players want innovation in the Exploration, Progression and combat mechanics. I personally could care less about story then the other 3, and I believe since the vast majority of developers have always put story on the 'backburner' is because its the least important.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
Lets also not forget that the WoW/EQ model supports and encourages elitist attitudes, which in turn destroys community even further.
thanks for reminding me. lets not forget what DPS meters, perpetual lack of class balance, heavy instancing and gear grinding did to the community. there's a reason why people reminisce about vanilla.
The same occurred at Pax. Everyone that played the game and I talked to liked the game. To me the Original Author has passive aggressive issues in addition to having an agenda. This is just like the bashers on this site.
uh...along with most other sites. MMORPG forum bashing is small beans compared to Massively.com staff's bashing of the game. theyre not really bashing it, theyre just saying "MEH".
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
You can argue whatever you like, but this whole 'themepark MMO's like WoW have little community building' and 'sandbox MMO's are the bomb and always have awesome communities' is getting old, and it's getting old fast. Even more, it shows a thorough lack of imagination.
I have played AoC, one of those other so called WoW-like MMO's that apparently has no place or options for community building, and let me tell you, the server I was on had one of the most awesome and fun communities I've encountered. Same for LotrO. So if you want to use examples, let's pick those, shall we? And let's look at reasons why WoW is like it is, like for example the cross server grouping: don't think that has maybe something to do with it?
As for grouping in SWTOR, it'll be easier than in other MMO's since groups are smaller and Companions help out when you lack a healer or tank: did you forget that little detail? Let me tell you, that was very, very effective in GW, where we didn't need to keep hanging around to find a healer or tank, if we were with 6 friends and guildies, we just grabbed NPC henchment to fill that 7th and 8th spot and went on adventuring. It offered alternatives where before there were none.
So yes, combine Companion, with the hybrid, multi-role nature of most of the classes and some other little group friendly features, and it looks like SWTOR will have easier and smoother grouping than other MMO's, sandbox MMO's included.
Originally posted by sonoggi
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Lets also not forget that the WoW/EQ model supports and encourages elitist attitudes, which in turn destroys community even further.
thanks for reminding me. lets not forget what DPS meters, perpetual lack of class balance, heavy instancing and gear grinding did to the community. there's a reason why people reminisce about vanilla.
Let's also not forget that SWTOR won't have things like DPS meters or that kind of mod options ingame at launch, and let's also not forget that instancing doesn't equal no community, there have been great communities in games with the WoW/EQ model, only haters of the themepark/non-sandbox design think otherwise.
And please, let's not talk about elitist attitudes, the elitist attitude that I've seen shown here most by MMO gamers on this forum is the heavily negative elitist, intolerant attitude that sandbox lovers have shown time and time again. In my opinion, the snobism and elitism shown by some of those far surpasses any elitist attitude shown in WoW/EQ styled games. In fact, if those are the people I'm supposed to form a community with on any sandbox AAA MMORPG I'll play, then that's a major negative to me. I see here nothing of the constructiveness and friendly openness that people claim is in those kind of server communities, I see only negativeness and intolerance that permeates their posting.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
Lets also not forget that the WoW/EQ model supports and encourages elitist attitudes, which in turn destroys community even further.
It doesnt matter if SWToR will be successful or that people find the game fun. All new things in life are fun but that new shiny game nostalgia will wear off completely for thousands if not millions of players after a short while once players realize the game has more in common with WoW then any other game on the market. Dispute it all you like but the facts is you cant beat WoW at WoW by using WoW. The only way to compete with Blizzard is breaking the mode and trying something new, innovating and fresh, which sadly takes cajones and willingness to experiment which unfortunetly only indie developers are brave enough to do at this stage in the genre.
Let's look at those indie made games you're so fond of, DF, MO, FE, Xyson, ER are horrible bug ridden games, that are so under developed i can't believe people actually pay money to play them. They are all these FFA corpse looting sandbox games that promise the world, yet they have the smallest subs in the whole genre.
When you're dealing with Lucas Arts and the biggest IP on the planet, your surely not gonna sink a hundred million dollars to cater to a select few of gamers.
You keep comparing TOR to WOW. Let's compare.
TOR - MMORPG WOW - MMO
housing no housing
companions no companions
crew skills/crafting crafting
standard combat/with twist standard combat
personal story no personal story
vo throught the whole game very limited vo
moral decisions no such system
very up to date stylalized graphics older version of stylalized graphics
space content/can be built upon no such system
warzones warzones
operations raids
open world pvp open world pvp
open world zones open world zones
ship custonization no such system
Seeing this side by side, and there are things i missed, you can quickly see that Bioware made good on what they said on how they were making TOR. They always preached that TOR was gonna be a hybrid of sorts and it looks like it is. They have taken a helping of thempark and added in some elements of sandbox and the result is TOR. I could easily make a list of other games coming out and it would be almost the same but slightly different, as those games as well, all share a bit of what WOW has brought to the genre as well as adding in some new innovations.
uh...along with most other sites. MMORPG forum bashing is small beans compared to Massively.com staff's bashing of the game. theyre not really bashing it, theyre just saying "MEH".
Not really, but keep trashing SWTOR, bro, it seems to me that SWTOR is more interesting to you than posting about games you play (if any?) or like, so I'm starting to think you'll end up playing SWTOR anyway
From the 4 that went to E3, there were 2 that were positive, 1 that was neutral and 1 that didn't even play the game but just watched his partner playing it.
Of the 2 that had more time in the event that went on before that, both were positive and enthusiastic.
But I can see how that turns into 'Massively.com's staff bashing it' in the eyes of people who are heavily biased towards a game they hate/dislike. After all, when someone has an aversion towards a game then it's the negative statements that jump out and that one agrees with and the positive ones are quickly ignored and forgotten, right?
Originally posted by Zylaxx
I can agree with this 100%. I think the vast majority of old school pre-WoW MMO players want innovation in the Exploration, Progression and combat mechanics. I personally could care less about story then the other 3, and I believe since the vast majority of developers have always put story on the 'backburner' is because its the least important.
You seem to have missed the current trend, namely that developers have realised that a game without story or more emphasis on the RPG element is a game that's lacking something.
If you think BW is the only company focusing on it then you're wrong: GW2 will have Personal Story, TSW will have VO/cinematics and an emphasis on story immersion, WoW has implemented more story focused questing in CATA and people loved that part.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I can agree with this 100%. I think the vast majority of old school pre-WoW MMO players want innovation in the Exploration, Progression and combat mechanics. I personally could care less about story then the other 3, and I believe since the vast majority of developers have always put story on the 'backburner' is because its the least important.
I find it very unlikely that other studios haven't wanted to focus a bit on story, I think it comes down to budget restraints and other resource based limitations why they haven't.
Lets face it the more they can make a themepark into an RPG the better off the presentation will be. Themeparks are more or less the basics of a co-op-RPG, without a major focus on the story element. In place of this are features that embrace Co-Op fundamentals. Now what's wrong with a themepark keeping this ideal yet, become more in line with what they seem to be trying to offer? Online RPG experiences for thousands of players.
MMO combat is focused on the basics of P&P dice rolls, I see nothing wrong with that, as it's accessible to more than just twitch players. Which is more or less the only other way to go, accessability is the bottomline to an MMO's success afterall.
What Bioware said makes perfect sense to me in that, you don't need to fix what isn't broke, offering a more complete package is more important to them. I see nothing wrong with this philosophy.
As for people who want something else, there's always GW2, Tera, AA or other titles that are coming. You can always just not play the games you're not looking forward to.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Picking rotten cherries is just as bad as picking only the sweet ones, guys.
On the contrary I trust him more than some biased gamers! For a fincanial analyst, he only sees the profit, so by profession he must try to see things are objective as he can. The necessity comes with the job. So I'd trust some finanical analyst more than hyped and biased game fanbois.
You know, EVERY TIME someone critizises TOR, you come up with excuses! Oh, it's some dumb fincancial analyst. Oh, it Massively, they are known haters. Oh, it's some obscure German mag. Oh, it's Elikal we know he is a hater.
Don't you get tired hearing yourself? I mean, for real. If time and again different sources critizise the same, don't you start to feel weird defending the game just for the sake of? The ONLY credit on your side defending the game is always slandering the credibility of the critiziser. And how serious is that? It's just childish and an absurd "ad hominem" attack. You try to nullify the critique by slandering the person. Great deal.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The Impressions from E3 were in the majority Overwhelming.... A few negative comment but that is something you will always get.
The Game is looking good a definite win win with the Bioware/LA combo. Seeing the current crop of MMOs and the lack of depth and quality I am not sure the word Underwhelming can be used with respect to SWTOR. It si a different beast to all but maybe a couple of current MMOs.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
Lets also not forget that the WoW/EQ model supports and encourages elitist attitudes, which in turn destroys community even further.
It doesnt matter if SWToR will be successful or that people find the game fun. All new things in life are fun but that new shiny game nostalgia will wear off completely for thousands if not millions of players after a short while once players realize the game has more in common with WoW then any other game on the market. Dispute it all you like but the facts is you cant beat WoW at WoW by using WoW. The only way to compete with Blizzard is breaking the mode and trying something new, innovating and fresh, which sadly takes cajones and willingness to experiment which unfortunetly only indie developers are brave enough to do at this stage in the genre.
Let's look at those indie made games you're so fond of, DF, MO, FE, Xyson, ER are horrible bug ridden games, that are so under developed i can't believe people actually pay money to play them. They are all these FFA corpse looting sandbox games that promise the world, yet they have the smallest subs in the whole genre.
When you're dealing with Lucas Arts and the biggest IP on the planet, your surely not gonna sink a hundred million dollars to cater to a select few of gamers.
You keep comparing TOR to WOW. Let's compare.
TOR - MMORPG WOW - MMO
housing no housing
companions no companions
crew skills/crafting crafting
standard combat/with twist standard combat
personal story no personal story
vo throught the whole game very limited vo
moral decisions no such system
very up to date stylalized graphics older version of stylalized graphics
space content/can be built upon no such system
warzones warzones
operations raids
open world pvp open world pvp
open world zones open world zones
ship custonization no such system
17 planets 1 planet
Seeing this side by side, and there are things i missed, you can quickly see that Bioware made good on what they said on how they were making TOR. They always preached that TOR was gonna be a hybrid of sorts and it looks like it is. They have taken a helping of thempark and added in some elements of sandbox and the result is TOR. I could easily make a list of other games coming out and it would be almost the same but slightly different, as those games as well, all share a bit of what WOW has brought to the genre as well as adding in some new innovations.
Fixed. Don't forget the planets, many of which will be bigger than most MMOs which brings far more things to explore than WOW. Some people just need to get over their jealousy of TOR and move on.
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
Lets also not forget that the WoW/EQ model supports and encourages elitist attitudes, which in turn destroys community even further.
It doesnt matter if SWToR will be successful or that people find the game fun. All new things in life are fun but that new shiny game nostalgia will wear off completely for thousands if not millions of players after a short while once players realize the game has more in common with WoW then any other game on the market. Dispute it all you like but the facts is you cant beat WoW at WoW by using WoW. The only way to compete with Blizzard is breaking the mode and trying something new, innovating and fresh, which sadly takes cajones and willingness to experiment which unfortunetly only indie developers are brave enough to do at this stage in the genre.
Let's look at those indie made games you're so fond of, DF, MO, FE, Xyson, ER are horrible bug ridden games, that are so under developed i can't believe people actually pay money to play them. They are all these FFA corpse looting sandbox games that promise the world, yet they have the smallest subs in the whole genre.
When you're dealing with Lucas Arts and the biggest IP on the planet, your surely not gonna sink a hundred million dollars to cater to a select few of gamers.
You keep comparing TOR to WOW. Let's compare.
TOR - MMORPG WOW - MMO
housing no housing
companions no companions
crew skills/crafting crafting
standard combat/with twist standard combat
personal story no personal story
vo throught the whole game very limited vo
moral decisions no such system
very up to date stylalized graphics older version of stylalized graphics
space content/can be built upon no such system
warzones warzones
operations raids
open world pvp open world pvp
open world zones open world zones
ship custonization no such system
17 planets 1 planet
Seeing this side by side, and there are things i missed, you can quickly see that Bioware made good on what they said on how they were making TOR. They always preached that TOR was gonna be a hybrid of sorts and it looks like it is. They have taken a helping of thempark and added in some elements of sandbox and the result is TOR. I could easily make a list of other games coming out and it would be almost the same but slightly different, as those games as well, all share a bit of what WOW has brought to the genre as well as adding in some new innovations.
Fixed. Don't forget the planets, many of which will be bigger than most MMOs which brings far more things to explore than WOW. Some people just need to get over their jealousy of TOR and move on.
Actually there are more than one planet in Wow: BC anyone?
Then TOR planets = wow zones. How many zones has wow yet?
does anyone else think it stupid and pointless to compare content between a game that's not out yet and hasn't revealed everything there is to know, to a game that has had 5 years of developement time and 6 years worth of updates?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
Not really sure why you included Vanguard as you basis for your argument besides maby my feeling about BW and people are not forgiving, I'ts big difference by hyping a game to be the best RPG ever made (Bioware) or release a MMO in crappy stage ( Sigil), If I've missunderstood you please enlighten me with more than one sentence.
About LOTRO argument not really sure what you want to make of it only that I play on occation when I need my MMO fix and having some laughs with friends over a few beers in a raid., been playing lotro on and off since launch but not activly playing.
Well I guess you want me to look like a idiot bashing your beloved game while me the basher playing in your mind the exact same kind of game, take it what you will but it is grasping for straws.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Is it not grasping for straws by judging on DA2 alone? They release one game that isn't great and all of a sudden the whole of Bioware will never release a good game again? Pay no mind to the fact they have multiple studios, each responsible for different games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even if this is true, what difference will it really make? People only group to do dungeons and harder quests whilst leveling these days. Oh sure you'll get a few people that will group exclusively but the vast majority of MMO players now level solo. How much community building do they get?
SO basically by your reasoning people in SWTOR will mostly level solo, just like in nearly every other MMO, and only grouping when they have to, just like in nearly every other MMO, but they'll get a cool story to play through whilst soloing their way to end game? The only MMO I've played where people spent most of their time grouped was FFxi. WoW, WAR, AOC, Aion are games were people spend the majority of their time leveling playing solo. People make it look like TOR will be the death of group levelling in MMOs when in reality that happened 6-7 years a go
Here's the thing people seem to be missing, even if this is true it only affects your class quests! each planet has long, multi staged 'world quests' you can group up on, there will be flash points throughout the game to group up for, there will be PvP warzones and PvP lakes to group up for. There will be as much to group for in SWTOR as in any other modern MMO.
okay, let's take one example everyone is familiar with: WoW. did WoW promote community building and grouping after vanilla/BC? No? then TOR won't as well. why? because one is a carbon copy of the other when it comes to PVE. one could further argue that companions will actually destroy grouping even more. then, one could argue that the trinity will destroy grouping even more more. there will be healer and tank shortages. in turn, people will summon their companion pets. im actually really interested to see how this is gonna play out. *grabs popcorn, time-travels and watches Erickson's reaction in 6 months*
The same occurred at Pax. Everyone that played the game and I talked to liked the game. To me the Original Author has passive aggressive issues in addition to having an agenda. This is just like the bashers on this site.
Lets also not forget that the WoW/EQ model supports and encourages elitist attitudes, which in turn destroys community even further.
It doesnt matter if SWToR will be successful or that people find the game fun. All new things in life are fun but that new shiny game nostalgia will wear off completely for thousands if not millions of players after a short while once players realize the game has more in common with WoW then any other game on the market. Dispute it all you like but the facts is you cant beat WoW at WoW by using WoW. The only way to compete with Blizzard is breaking the mode and trying something new, innovating and fresh, which sadly takes cajones and willingness to experiment which unfortunetly only indie developers are brave enough to do at this stage in the genre.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Ironically the most eliteist player base I've come across was in FFxi, which was all about grouping. Normal armour or weapons wasn't good enough, it had to be +1 and god help you if you played a class that performed 2% less than the next. Levelling was all about how much exp/hour you could wring out .
I can agree with this 100%. I think the vast majority of old school pre-WoW MMO players want innovation in the Exploration, Progression and combat mechanics. I personally could care less about story then the other 3, and I believe since the vast majority of developers have always put story on the 'backburner' is because its the least important.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
thanks for reminding me. lets not forget what DPS meters, perpetual lack of class balance, heavy instancing and gear grinding did to the community. there's a reason why people reminisce about vanilla.
uh...along with most other sites. MMORPG forum bashing is small beans compared to Massively.com staff's bashing of the game. theyre not really bashing it, theyre just saying "MEH".
You can argue whatever you like, but this whole 'themepark MMO's like WoW have little community building' and 'sandbox MMO's are the bomb and always have awesome communities' is getting old, and it's getting old fast. Even more, it shows a thorough lack of imagination.
I have played AoC, one of those other so called WoW-like MMO's that apparently has no place or options for community building, and let me tell you, the server I was on had one of the most awesome and fun communities I've encountered. Same for LotrO. So if you want to use examples, let's pick those, shall we? And let's look at reasons why WoW is like it is, like for example the cross server grouping: don't think that has maybe something to do with it?
As for grouping in SWTOR, it'll be easier than in other MMO's since groups are smaller and Companions help out when you lack a healer or tank: did you forget that little detail? Let me tell you, that was very, very effective in GW, where we didn't need to keep hanging around to find a healer or tank, if we were with 6 friends and guildies, we just grabbed NPC henchment to fill that 7th and 8th spot and went on adventuring. It offered alternatives where before there were none.
So yes, combine Companion, with the hybrid, multi-role nature of most of the classes and some other little group friendly features, and it looks like SWTOR will have easier and smoother grouping than other MMO's, sandbox MMO's included.
Let's also not forget that SWTOR won't have things like DPS meters or that kind of mod options ingame at launch, and let's also not forget that instancing doesn't equal no community, there have been great communities in games with the WoW/EQ model, only haters of the themepark/non-sandbox design think otherwise.
And please, let's not talk about elitist attitudes, the elitist attitude that I've seen shown here most by MMO gamers on this forum is the heavily negative elitist, intolerant attitude that sandbox lovers have shown time and time again. In my opinion, the snobism and elitism shown by some of those far surpasses any elitist attitude shown in WoW/EQ styled games. In fact, if those are the people I'm supposed to form a community with on any sandbox AAA MMORPG I'll play, then that's a major negative to me. I see here nothing of the constructiveness and friendly openness that people claim is in those kind of server communities, I see only negativeness and intolerance that permeates their posting.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Let's look at those indie made games you're so fond of, DF, MO, FE, Xyson, ER are horrible bug ridden games, that are so under developed i can't believe people actually pay money to play them. They are all these FFA corpse looting sandbox games that promise the world, yet they have the smallest subs in the whole genre.
When you're dealing with Lucas Arts and the biggest IP on the planet, your surely not gonna sink a hundred million dollars to cater to a select few of gamers.
You keep comparing TOR to WOW. Let's compare.
TOR - MMORPG WOW - MMO
housing no housing
companions no companions
crew skills/crafting crafting
standard combat/with twist standard combat
personal story no personal story
vo throught the whole game very limited vo
moral decisions no such system
very up to date stylalized graphics older version of stylalized graphics
space content/can be built upon no such system
warzones warzones
operations raids
open world pvp open world pvp
open world zones open world zones
ship custonization no such system
Seeing this side by side, and there are things i missed, you can quickly see that Bioware made good on what they said on how they were making TOR. They always preached that TOR was gonna be a hybrid of sorts and it looks like it is. They have taken a helping of thempark and added in some elements of sandbox and the result is TOR. I could easily make a list of other games coming out and it would be almost the same but slightly different, as those games as well, all share a bit of what WOW has brought to the genre as well as adding in some new innovations.
Not really, but keep trashing SWTOR, bro, it seems to me that SWTOR is more interesting to you than posting about games you play (if any?) or like, so I'm starting to think you'll end up playing SWTOR anyway
From the 4 that went to E3, there were 2 that were positive, 1 that was neutral and 1 that didn't even play the game but just watched his partner playing it.
Of the 2 that had more time in the event that went on before that, both were positive and enthusiastic.
But I can see how that turns into 'Massively.com's staff bashing it' in the eyes of people who are heavily biased towards a game they hate/dislike. After all, when someone has an aversion towards a game then it's the negative statements that jump out and that one agrees with and the positive ones are quickly ignored and forgotten, right?
You seem to have missed the current trend, namely that developers have realised that a game without story or more emphasis on the RPG element is a game that's lacking something.
If you think BW is the only company focusing on it then you're wrong: GW2 will have Personal Story, TSW will have VO/cinematics and an emphasis on story immersion, WoW has implemented more story focused questing in CATA and people loved that part.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I find it very unlikely that other studios haven't wanted to focus a bit on story, I think it comes down to budget restraints and other resource based limitations why they haven't.
Lets face it the more they can make a themepark into an RPG the better off the presentation will be. Themeparks are more or less the basics of a co-op-RPG, without a major focus on the story element. In place of this are features that embrace Co-Op fundamentals. Now what's wrong with a themepark keeping this ideal yet, become more in line with what they seem to be trying to offer? Online RPG experiences for thousands of players.
MMO combat is focused on the basics of P&P dice rolls, I see nothing wrong with that, as it's accessible to more than just twitch players. Which is more or less the only other way to go, accessability is the bottomline to an MMO's success afterall.
What Bioware said makes perfect sense to me in that, you don't need to fix what isn't broke, offering a more complete package is more important to them. I see nothing wrong with this philosophy.
As for people who want something else, there's always GW2, Tera, AA or other titles that are coming. You can always just not play the games you're not looking forward to.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
On the contrary I trust him more than some biased gamers! For a fincanial analyst, he only sees the profit, so by profession he must try to see things are objective as he can. The necessity comes with the job. So I'd trust some finanical analyst more than hyped and biased game fanbois.
You know, EVERY TIME someone critizises TOR, you come up with excuses! Oh, it's some dumb fincancial analyst. Oh, it Massively, they are known haters. Oh, it's some obscure German mag. Oh, it's Elikal we know he is a hater.
Don't you get tired hearing yourself? I mean, for real. If time and again different sources critizise the same, don't you start to feel weird defending the game just for the sake of? The ONLY credit on your side defending the game is always slandering the credibility of the critiziser. And how serious is that? It's just childish and an absurd "ad hominem" attack. You try to nullify the critique by slandering the person. Great deal.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The Impressions from E3 were in the majority Overwhelming.... A few negative comment but that is something you will always get.
The Game is looking good a definite win win with the Bioware/LA combo. Seeing the current crop of MMOs and the lack of depth and quality I am not sure the word Underwhelming can be used with respect to SWTOR. It si a different beast to all but maybe a couple of current MMOs.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
See above
Fixed. Don't forget the planets, many of which will be bigger than most MMOs which brings far more things to explore than WOW. Some people just need to get over their jealousy of TOR and move on.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Actually there are more than one planet in Wow: BC anyone?
Then TOR planets = wow zones. How many zones has wow yet?
does anyone else think it stupid and pointless to compare content between a game that's not out yet and hasn't revealed everything there is to know, to a game that has had 5 years of developement time and 6 years worth of updates?
Not really. For someone who keeps track on info on the official forums you're surprisingly (or maybe not surprisingly) misinformed.
if you want to make a comparison, then TOR planets = WoW continents.
That one makes the most sense for several reasons.
Loading screens between TOR planets and between WoW continents.
Alderaan is 8 WoW zones large. Outland is 7 WoW zones large.
As for your other question: WoW vanilla had 40-45 open-world zones, WoW CATA about 70.
SWTOR has 4 origin worlds that are 1-2 medium WoW zones large.
The other 13 planets are stated to be at least 4 times as large in total landmass as the largest origin world.
So that'd make each SWTOR planet to be (roughly) the size of an Outland or about half a Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms or as large as Rift's world.
But if you really want to translate that into WoW zones, I guess an estimation could be made of SWTOR being like 105-110 WoW zones large.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
lol oh boy.
Proves my point. Both games have some things in common but are more different than alike.