Problem is, todays mmo designers have learned that it's not worth money to design stuff only 5% of playerbase would see, as you can see in WoW for example (where did all the secret quests and easterggs go, eh?). So isntead they focus on designing content which doesnt require exporation :I
Problem is, todays mmo designers have learned that it's not worth money to design stuff only 5% of playerbase would see, as you can see in WoW for example (where did all the secret quests and easterggs go, eh?). So isntead they focus on designing content which doesnt require exporation :I
you are referring to raiding content, and thankfully sandboxes is very unlikey to have this issue. Wow is a great example though of where exploration/the jouney just gets in the way of the mad rush to end-game. Blizzes poor stewardship is to blame. RE easter eggs and secret quests, I still remember the chicken quest amongst others
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I think a great way to reward exploration is through both XP for discovering new areas and rare mobs that drop (in this game) excellent crafting mats. The rare mobs should spawn randomly and move fairly freely to encourage players to continue exploring the world rather than camping by xxx,yyy for 19 hours.
An intereting idea could be the achievment model, where you gain experience for completing achieves. This opens the door to endlesss achievments that are explore related.
Couple random ideas:
View the sun setting and rising from the top of tower x.
Find and attack rare mob x.
explore the 12 ruins of y.
Artifact collections.
Find the highest/lowest points in zone z.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I think a great way to reward exploration is through both XP for discovering new areas and rare mobs that drop (in this game) excellent crafting mats. The rare mobs should spawn randomly and move fairly freely to encourage players to continue exploring the world rather than camping by xxx,yyy for 19 hours.
An intereting idea could be the achievment model, where you gain experience for completing achieves. This opens the door to endlesss achievments that are explore related.
Couple random ideas:
View the sun setting and rising from the top of tower x.
Find and attack rare mob x.
explore the 12 ruins of y.
Artifact collections.
Find the highest/lowest points in zone z.
The problem with that approach is that, knowing the general gamer mentality, the moment you offer some tangible in-game benefit for something, it becomes pretty much mandatory. Thus, the act of exploration gets all the pleasure taken from it and becomes just another grind that players undertake on their way to the "endgame".
Exploration should be a thing of passion, not of obligation.
If i can think back to epic moments in mmorgs it has been that sense of wonder when exploring along with the sense of freedom and a real living world. Question is, what can be added to enhance this? (Archage has the gfx and size factor covered)
Starters for 10:
one great feature I saw in Rift is where you can explore and find artifacts. This would be a nice themeparky but valid addition to archage - what do you think, or even better is it there already?
Grinding(shock horror) it seems to be so out of vogue in the 'west' but I think it gives a great reward for exploring that many people have forgotten. E.g you are willing to go explore for a day or 2 because you can grind decent xp and drops/money/mats while you go - its another valid path to levelling for those that want to explore.
I'm sorry, but I cannot stop laughing...
Nothing needs to be "added" to exploration, it just needs to be in the world. Make a real game world and adventuring in it will be dynamic, exciting and phun.
RIFT is an arcade game & only been out for a few months.. so I hope you "remember when.." in a game that is themepark and canned (placed) epic adventures for everyone.
You under estimate what ArcheAge is.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Whenever people talk about 'exploring' in MMOs, all I can think is that they are complete gaming newbs. In the process of mastering the a game, I expect you'd have every rock and nook on the planet burned into your memory. If exploring is even a factor in your gaming style I think you haven't played much and have certainly missed out on a huge amount of the mastery dynamics that makes MMOs so engrossing.
So you've determined that exploring is something that only newbs do, huh? ROFL I suggest it's quite the opposite. Exploring USED to be a big part of MMOs. Lately it's more like an afterthought for when someone has already hit max level and they're bored and therefore go back and explore, which, I might add, really isn't much like exploration at all, since at that level there is now no longer any real surprise RISK in exploring.
But whatever. Think what you will. I 100 percent disagree with your assessment.
By the way, your "mastery of dynamics" is not mutually exclusive from exploring as you go. Just because you like to explore does not mean you don't enjoy the REST of the content of a game as well. I like to play the WHOLE game.
On topic:
Regarding the OP question, a large and diverse world is part of what it needs. Less streamlining to "end game" (how I loathe the simplification in that term), would also help with immersion, in my opinion, but.....it's just one opinion.
If i can think back to epic moments in mmorgs it has been that sense of wonder when exploring along with the sense of freedom and a real living world. Question is, what can be added to enhance this? (Archage has the gfx and size factor covered)
Starters for 10:
one great feature I saw in Rift is where you can explore and find artifacts. This would be a nice themeparky but valid addition to archage - what do you think, or even better is it there already?
Grinding(shock horror) it seems to be so out of vogue in the 'west' but I think it gives a great reward for exploring that many people have forgotten. E.g you are willing to go explore for a day or 2 because you can grind decent xp and drops/money/mats while you go - its another valid path to levelling for those that want to explore.
I'm sorry, but I cannot stop laughing...
Nothing needs to be "added" to exploration, it just needs to be in the world. Make a real game world and adventuring in it will be dynamic, exciting and phun.
RIFT is an arcade game & only been out for a few months.. so I hope you "remember when.." in a game that is themepark and canned (placed) epic adventures for everyone.
You under estimate what ArcheAge is.
try actually reading this thread instead of skimming a post and drawing some random point that has got nothing to do with the thread. Honestly poeple who dont know how to actually have a discvussion..
1. I know rift is rubbish, read again. 2 at the poor end of the spectrum we have 16k sq miles of nothingness which is cleary not attractive for exploring, so 'stuff' is needed to make it attractive. 3 'remember when' comment is clearly not referring to the gumph that has been released in the past couple years, use your brain.
Now actually read the posts here. And for your info I am a great fan of archage, it has the potential to be the best mmorg to date.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
After viewing a few vids on youtube, it does look to be a game where exploration could well require a few buddies to accompany you.
Some of the mobs seem pretty overpowering, although I'm sure some character configurations will shine for soloing. As it's still in beta, maybe mob difficulty will get tuned down a bit by launch (part of me really hopes not).
Nothing needs to be "added" to exploration, it just needs to be in the world. Make a real game world and adventuring in it will be dynamic, exciting and phun.
RIFT is an arcade game & only been out for a few months.. so I hope you "remember when.." in a game that is themepark and canned (placed) epic adventures for everyone.
You under estimate what ArcheAge is.
Well, there is one thing that really makes exploring more fun: Adding some small, useless things to find. Like a tree full of ravens, an old sidhe (the gravepile, not the creature), a few stones that once was some kind of building, stuff like that. Nothing useful but at least I always get happy when I find some small oddity without an actual benefit but that makes the world feel a little more alive.
A hole in a hill where a fox or 2 lives in, a big rock where snakes like to lie in the sun and gets warm on, a birdsnest in a tree.
Explorers really don't need any big mechanics or anything, but we do need stuff to find, both small and large stuff. Things like this is what makes a gameworld feel alive, not mindless animals that attack the player on sight (Wolves really don't attack people except in MMOs) or are randomly placed out so the player can get fur. It is details that makes a gameworld feel alive.
Explorers really don't need any big mechanics or anything, but we do need stuff to find, both small and large stuff. Things like this is what makes a gameworld feel alive, not mindless animals that attack the player on sight (Wolves really don't attack people except in MMOs) or are randomly placed out so the player can get fur. It is details that makes a gameworld feel alive.
Actually, I REALLY love exploring in MMOs. I tend to run around and look at things, and take screenshots of oddities.
I try dragging friends along 'OMG, look at this!'. I've died more than once taking a screenshot of some interesting background object.
The more stuff to find, the better obviously. You can't just throw out a giant chunk of land and expect people to wander around and explore just because they haven't seen another randomly generated tree.
... BUT, I also think it's neat when a game actually rewards you for exploring in some way...
I actually really loved that about Earth & Beyond, that you could get xp for exploring. LOTS of xp for exploring. You could even get xp for being in a group with somebody who hasn't seen the location you bring them to. I used to make tour guide groups and usher people around, showing them trading routes (While trading myself for money) and racking up some quick xp on the side. It was just a fun and interesting mechanism to encourage people to socialize in a new way (Tour guide). Since it's something I already like to do, being rewarded for it was just double-awesome.
First of all the world needs to big and the means of transportation should not be that fast. I always hate it when everything is only at 5 minutes distance and instant travel/teleportations really makes my skin itch.
Roads should be a "safe" route but often they proof to be a little d-tour. Taking a short cut should be a reason to explore and discover new things.
No worldmap. Allow only player-made maps (which you can buy, steal, etc) and maps based on what you have discovered yourself.
Dynamic resources, sometimes exploring gives you a reward in the form of some kind of resources. You can either harvest it yourself or sell the location to someone else.
Dynamic encounters, sometimes you stumble on a merchant or a goblin warband.
Freebuilding., in the middle of the forest you find the cottage of a player. Is he an outlaw or just some warlock conducting some experiments.
"Empty" zones should not be the worries of the devs. Every player wants to do different things. So empty zones to one is the perfect game hunting zone for others, or an excellent hideout spot. Maybe the goblin village that got massacred relocates to this zone, because goblin scouts did not see much human activity there. So the empty zone can be filled next time you revisit it.
Actually, I REALLY love exploring in MMOs. I tend to run around and look at things, and take screenshots of oddities.
I try dragging friends along 'OMG, look at this!'. I've died more than once taking a screenshot of some interesting background object.
The more stuff to find, the better obviously. You can't just throw out a giant chunk of land and expect people to wander around and explore just because they haven't seen another randomly generated tree.
... BUT, I also think it's neat when a game actually rewards you for exploring in some way...
I actually really loved that about Earth & Beyond, that you could get xp for exploring. LOTS of xp for exploring. You could even get xp for being in a group with somebody who hasn't seen the location you bring them to. I used to make tour guide groups and usher people around, showing them trading routes (While trading myself for money) and racking up some quick xp on the side. It was just a fun and interesting mechanism to encourage people to socialize in a new way (Tour guide). Since it's something I already like to do, being rewarded for it was just double-awesome.
Yeah, but I rather have something that is within the game. Have a few rare herbs spawn in random locations once in a while. Stuff like that, it is always neat to find something rare in an odd place.
The shinys in EQ2 (and Rift) also works well, that is stuff that rewards people for exploring and running around.
Yeah, but I rather have something that is within the game. Have a few rare herbs spawn in random locations once in a while. Stuff like that, it is always neat to find something rare in an odd place.
The shinys in EQ2 (and Rift) also works well, that is stuff that rewards people for exploring and running around.
Well, I like that TOO. There were physical benefits to exploring in Earth and Beyond, you found new places, new trading routes, new locations that might have something interesting or that you want.
... but I'm tired of xp being all combat mostly.
E&B had three kinds of levels. Combat, Trading and Exploring.
You could level up any one of those... or all three. It was just an interesting mechanism, and I was glad to see a game that didn't reward you xp solely for how well you can hit things on the head.
Hidden gems, little subtle landmarks with a little lore attached to it, rare herbs, rare artifacts, all awesome.
I remember in wow after about 5 years I came across this random monument, turns out it was placed by blizz for an associate that passed away. I found this very touching and gave my respects. My point is not that that that this was a 'great idea' more that mmorgs can truely be alive when created with passion, and landscape and exploring can be integral to the quality of the virtual world, it is possible for a game to be greater than the sum of its parts.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
Problem is, todays mmo designers have learned that it's not worth money to design stuff only 5% of playerbase would see, as you can see in WoW for example (where did all the secret quests and easterggs go, eh?). So isntead they focus on designing content which doesnt require exporation :I
you are referring to raiding content, and thankfully sandboxes is very unlikey to have this issue. Wow is a great example though of where exploration/the jouney just gets in the way of the mad rush to end-game. Blizzes poor stewardship is to blame. RE easter eggs and secret quests, I still remember the chicken quest amongst others
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
An intereting idea could be the achievment model, where you gain experience for completing achieves. This opens the door to endlesss achievments that are explore related.
Couple random ideas:
View the sun setting and rising from the top of tower x.
Find and attack rare mob x.
explore the 12 ruins of y.
Artifact collections.
Find the highest/lowest points in zone z.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The problem with that approach is that, knowing the general gamer mentality, the moment you offer some tangible in-game benefit for something, it becomes pretty much mandatory. Thus, the act of exploration gets all the pleasure taken from it and becomes just another grind that players undertake on their way to the "endgame".
Exploration should be a thing of passion, not of obligation.
I'm sorry, but I cannot stop laughing...
Nothing needs to be "added" to exploration, it just needs to be in the world. Make a real game world and adventuring in it will be dynamic, exciting and phun.
RIFT is an arcade game & only been out for a few months.. so I hope you "remember when.." in a game that is themepark and canned (placed) epic adventures for everyone.
You under estimate what ArcheAge is.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
So you've determined that exploring is something that only newbs do, huh? ROFL I suggest it's quite the opposite. Exploring USED to be a big part of MMOs. Lately it's more like an afterthought for when someone has already hit max level and they're bored and therefore go back and explore, which, I might add, really isn't much like exploration at all, since at that level there is now no longer any real surprise RISK in exploring.
But whatever. Think what you will. I 100 percent disagree with your assessment.
By the way, your "mastery of dynamics" is not mutually exclusive from exploring as you go. Just because you like to explore does not mean you don't enjoy the REST of the content of a game as well. I like to play the WHOLE game.
On topic:
Regarding the OP question, a large and diverse world is part of what it needs. Less streamlining to "end game" (how I loathe the simplification in that term), would also help with immersion, in my opinion, but.....it's just one opinion.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
try actually reading this thread instead of skimming a post and drawing some random point that has got nothing to do with the thread. Honestly poeple who dont know how to actually have a discvussion..
1. I know rift is rubbish, read again. 2 at the poor end of the spectrum we have 16k sq miles of nothingness which is cleary not attractive for exploring, so 'stuff' is needed to make it attractive. 3 'remember when' comment is clearly not referring to the gumph that has been released in the past couple years, use your brain.
Now actually read the posts here. And for your info I am a great fan of archage, it has the potential to be the best mmorg to date.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
After viewing a few vids on youtube, it does look to be a game where exploration could well require a few buddies to accompany you.
Some of the mobs seem pretty overpowering, although I'm sure some character configurations will shine for soloing. As it's still in beta, maybe mob difficulty will get tuned down a bit by launch (part of me really hopes not).
Well, there is one thing that really makes exploring more fun: Adding some small, useless things to find. Like a tree full of ravens, an old sidhe (the gravepile, not the creature), a few stones that once was some kind of building, stuff like that. Nothing useful but at least I always get happy when I find some small oddity without an actual benefit but that makes the world feel a little more alive.
A hole in a hill where a fox or 2 lives in, a big rock where snakes like to lie in the sun and gets warm on, a birdsnest in a tree.
Explorers really don't need any big mechanics or anything, but we do need stuff to find, both small and large stuff. Things like this is what makes a gameworld feel alive, not mindless animals that attack the player on sight (Wolves really don't attack people except in MMOs) or are randomly placed out so the player can get fur. It is details that makes a gameworld feel alive.
Actually, I REALLY love exploring in MMOs. I tend to run around and look at things, and take screenshots of oddities.
I try dragging friends along 'OMG, look at this!'. I've died more than once taking a screenshot of some interesting background object.
The more stuff to find, the better obviously. You can't just throw out a giant chunk of land and expect people to wander around and explore just because they haven't seen another randomly generated tree.
... BUT, I also think it's neat when a game actually rewards you for exploring in some way...
I actually really loved that about Earth & Beyond, that you could get xp for exploring. LOTS of xp for exploring. You could even get xp for being in a group with somebody who hasn't seen the location you bring them to.
I used to make tour guide groups and usher people around, showing them trading routes (While trading myself for money) and racking up some quick xp on the side. 
It was just a fun and interesting mechanism to encourage people to socialize in a new way (Tour guide). Since it's something I already like to do, being rewarded for it was just double-awesome.
First of all the world needs to big and the means of transportation should not be that fast. I always hate it when everything is only at 5 minutes distance and instant travel/teleportations really makes my skin itch.
Roads should be a "safe" route but often they proof to be a little d-tour. Taking a short cut should be a reason to explore and discover new things.
No worldmap. Allow only player-made maps (which you can buy, steal, etc) and maps based on what you have discovered yourself.
Dynamic resources, sometimes exploring gives you a reward in the form of some kind of resources. You can either harvest it yourself or sell the location to someone else.
Dynamic encounters, sometimes you stumble on a merchant or a goblin warband.
Freebuilding., in the middle of the forest you find the cottage of a player. Is he an outlaw or just some warlock conducting some experiments.
"Empty" zones should not be the worries of the devs. Every player wants to do different things. So empty zones to one is the perfect game hunting zone for others, or an excellent hideout spot. Maybe the goblin village that got massacred relocates to this zone, because goblin scouts did not see much human activity there. So the empty zone can be filled next time you revisit it.
Yeah, but I rather have something that is within the game. Have a few rare herbs spawn in random locations once in a while. Stuff like that, it is always neat to find something rare in an odd place.
The shinys in EQ2 (and Rift) also works well, that is stuff that rewards people for exploring and running around.
Well, I like that TOO. There were physical benefits to exploring in Earth and Beyond, you found new places, new trading routes, new locations that might have something interesting or that you want.
... but I'm tired of xp being all combat mostly.
E&B had three kinds of levels. Combat, Trading and Exploring.
You could level up any one of those... or all three.
It was just an interesting mechanism, and I was glad to see a game that didn't reward you xp solely for how well you can hit things on the head.
Hidden gems, little subtle landmarks with a little lore attached to it, rare herbs, rare artifacts, all awesome.
I remember in wow after about 5 years I came across this random monument, turns out it was placed by blizz for an associate that passed away. I found this very touching and gave my respects. My point is not that that that this was a 'great idea' more that mmorgs can truely be alive when created with passion, and landscape and exploring can be integral to the quality of the virtual world, it is possible for a game to be greater than the sum of its parts.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D