I agree if it's just splitting every creatures (from other MMOs) down to 1/3 their abilities (1/3 health 1/3 defense 1/3 atk power) that it wouldn't be any harder to kill them then they would be in any other game.
The thing that might be different in this game is what those 1/3 might be.
In an normal MMO you got a rat hes a level 10 warrior type (bashes you, bites at you, doesn't use spells)
Now you know what to expect from that rat. So as long as you stay ahead of his hp and don't get stunned by his bashes your okay. Theres no way for him to reheal by spell or other unnatural ways.
Now if we take that same rat and split him into 3 parts, make one a warrior rat, a priest rat and a wizard rat (all 1/3 their natural stat minus level, of the warrior rat)
Now you have one blasting at you for large damage, one is healing the warrior rat and the warrior rat is bashing you causing you to be stunned. Done wrong or getting unlucky you could be almost done killing one of the rats, get stunned by the warrior, blasted hard by the wizard and the healer one just rehealed the damage you did to the one your attacking.
By splitting the encounter your very possibly not fighting 3 warriors but a mini group. That in itself could make things a lot harder then just fighting one rat. Not to mention if they manage to get that AI of theirs working again (as it wasn't in the tatoonie video i heard) then you got 3-5 enemies moving around and ducking behind cover. To me it's much harder watching 3-5 guys then just the one.
Thats of course assuming what i'm speculating is the norm for the fight. But without playing it i don't know for certain, even so the possibility is there to make it a lot harder.
Agree completely, but you might want to know that the AI in the Tatooine Vid was intentionally turned down so that the walkthrough could be done easier. It's kind of hard to show all the features if you are fighting every 30 seconds. They did say it in the video too. In the latter half if I remember right. The aggro ranges were also turned way down for the same reason.
They DID make a BIG mistake by not telling people that VERY clearly in the very beginning of the video.
GMan3 is right.
Now I would really be interested in seeing real AI and I hope it will be good. So far all I saw is either dumb AI or way too low opponent power. Pretty sure it will be different at launch however it leaves me wondering. Hopefully the combat will be better than in Kotor / ME / DA.
Another point, I do expect war zones to accept more than 8 vs 8 players. Playing larger arenas is much welcome, still I'm looking forward battles not skirmishes.
Deewe, I have seen a couple videos from earlier builds that showed off anywhere's from 15 to 120 minutes of gameplay and the AI was ok in the earliest and got better over the next couple of builds. As it should, aggro ranges varied with the more "range centric" enemies having a very large range indeed. I tried to provide a link to prove my statements, but they have already been taken down. If I find another though, I will post it. If the AI does continue to improve at the rate it has been though, I will be VERY happy. Heck, if all I get is the last one I saw, then I will still be happy. The enemies were actually using cover and chasing people down who were hiding behind cover.
Don't worry I saw the vids and some leaked stuff that have been kindly provided to me even before October 2008...
I have to be honest here. Might be a beta however regarding they are aiming for september/october I'm worried. The AI seemed not really good. Wait and see. At least it can only improve
Don't worry I buy the CE and we might even meet in game!
What I find interesting is that TOR was not even the best mmo at E3 yet we sit here and debate it's merits soley on it's relation to the franchise license.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
What I find interesting is that TOR was not even the best mmo at E3 yet we sit here and debate it's merits soley on it's relation to the franchise license.
Is that because the best mmo @ e3 is that important of a predictor?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
What I find interesting is that TOR was not even the best mmo at E3 yet we sit here and debate it's merits soley on it's relation to the franchise license.
I agree. This game doesn't look that special and if it didn't have Star Wars in the name few would care. If they named it Space Wars no one would care. And the style of art they choose makes it look generic sci-fi. Take away the lightsabers and Yoda from most screenshots and it could be any sci-fi game.
What I find interesting is that TOR was not even the best mmo at E3 yet we sit here and debate it's merits soley on it's relation to the franchise license.
Is that because the best mmo @ e3 is that important of a predictor?
Being so cloes to release...yeah it is and it does not bode well for BW.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I don't think TOR will fail. I don't think it will COMPLETELY change the industry either. It has too much money involved, so it can't afford to.
That being said, it will probably introduce SOME new things while working with what makes WoW so successful. Bioware are doing to Blizzard what Blizzard did to SOE (EQ). They're looking at what people like, asking what they don't like and what they'd like changed. They implement what they like (if it isn't broken, don't fix it) and then make the wanted changes accordingly (it is broken and they will fix it, even though the current company refuses to do so). It cost SOE over one million subs in less than six months. I'm not saying that TOR will evicerate WoW, but it could. I mean, we certainly didn't predict the huge success WoW became. And couple TOR with the fact that it plays like WoW (easy to pick up) AND supports a Star Wars license (which allows even the non-fantasy gamer geeks to appreciate the game) and you could potentially get even MORE people into MMO's.
Say what you want about WoW (I personally can't stand the game anymore) but one thing it did do and that's get more money flowing into the genre. We've had a lot of bad games come out over the years, but lessons were learned. We've also had some good games come out. We are certainly a FAR cry from the days of EQ, DAOC, Anarchy Online and Ultime Online being your few MMO choices. I still remember the devs at SOE telling players "If you don't like how this game runs, feel free to play something else." And they did, as WoW took off into the stratosphere. We've not seen a huge boom in the genre since, but it's bound to happen soon and TOR stands a good chance of being the game that does it.
It will not fail, not because the game is any good. It's because people like to throw their money at badly made games. If you want quality then stop supporting badly made games.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
It will not fail, not because the game is any good. It's because people like to throw their money at badly made games. If you want quality then stop supporting badly made games.
You obviously haven't seen badly made games. TOR may not be the best game in construction, but it is far from "badly made"
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I don't think TOR will fail. I don't think it will COMPLETELY change the industry either. It has too much money involved, so it can't afford to.
That being said, it will probably introduce SOME new things while working with what makes WoW so successful. Bioware are doing to Blizzard what Blizzard did to SOE (EQ). They're looking at what people like, asking what they don't like and what they'd like changed. They implement what they like (if it isn't broken, don't fix it) and then make the wanted changes accordingly (it is broken and they will fix it, even though the current company refuses to do so).
Could Tabula Rasa and its $105 millions budget afford to fail? Not really. And it did.
Now I predict TOR with its estimated $100ish millions budget will go much farther the break point in the first month. I'd say around 2 milions box + digital copies sold... unless Diablo 3 launches either just before of just after it. Btw Diablo 3 is actually planned for around Thanksgiving this year.
About your second point please allow me to disagree. BioWare isn't aiming for what the players like. They are taking a working recipe (Wow) and fine tuning it. For example most players dislike wow cartoonish graphics, trinity system, and look based on gear stats: TOR will have all of this. Not what players wants.
Originally posted by xKingdomx
Originally posted by stayontarget
It will not fail, not because the game is any good. It's because people like to throw their money at badly made games. If you want quality then stop supporting badly made games.
You obviously haven't seen badly made games. TOR may not be the best game in construction, but it is far from "badly made"
Agreed, TOR will be a good game. Flawed with design mistakes but it shall be a finely polished game nonetheless.
I don't think TOR will fail. I don't think it will COMPLETELY change the industry either. It has too much money involved, so it can't afford to.
That being said, it will probably introduce SOME new things while working with what makes WoW so successful. Bioware are doing to Blizzard what Blizzard did to SOE (EQ). They're looking at what people like, asking what they don't like and what they'd like changed. They implement what they like (if it isn't broken, don't fix it) and then make the wanted changes accordingly (it is broken and they will fix it, even though the current company refuses to do so).
Could Tabula Rasa and its $105 millions budget afford to fail? Not really. And it did.
Now I predict TOR with its estimated $100ish millions budget will go much farther the break point in the first month. I'd say around 2 milions box + digital copies sold... unless Diablo 3 launches either just before of just after it. Btw Diablo 3 is actually planned for around Thanksgiving this year.
About your second point please allow me to disagree. BioWare isn't aiming for what the players like. They are taking a working recipe (Wow) and fine tuning it. For example most players dislike wow cartoonish graphics, trinity system, and look based on gear stats: TOR will have all of this. Not what players wants.
Originally posted by xKingdomx
Originally posted by stayontarget
It will not fail, not because the game is any good. It's because people like to throw their money at badly made games. If you want quality then stop supporting badly made games.
You obviously haven't seen badly made games. TOR may not be the best game in construction, but it is far from "badly made"
Agreed, TOR will be a good game. Flawed with design mistakes but it shall be a finely polished game nonetheless.
I'll disagree on them not doing what the players want.
Gratned the graphics aren't the best in the world, and players did want super realistic. The problem falls into longetivity, most players agree that super realitic (what players wanted) doesn't last as long visual wise as something stylized. BUt as for not doing what players wanted, i'll disagree and add proof along with it.
Players really didn't want Jedi Wizard. Bioware saw this put out a poll and asked out of 5 or so choices which one they'd want. Jedi consular won out by popular vote..So, Bioware changed the name from Jedi Wizard to Jedi Consular.
Second People really didn't like the old UI (beta players) so Bioware changed it up to what we have today.
They are also giving fans the ability to have a Bioware style game inside of an MMO, so that way they can share the adventure they have inside of the kotor universe, with others.
So i'll just disagree on them not giving people what they want, and add i think some people want something and if Bioware doesn't implement that then somehow Bioware isn't doing what the people want...personaly myself I like the graphics (i didn't care for them at first but they got better and now they are good imo).
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I'm sure this had already been said. I am going to say first that TOR from the business end will be a success but...
I believe TOR will have historic box sales. I wouldn't be suprised to see 2 to 3 million copies sold, that would include digital copies.
I also believe that launch will be a mess simply due to the huge amount of people trying to get in game. The response will be to open up many new servers and they will have to at the time. I also believe that the game will see massive subscription loss during the first year.. which will result in server mergers before 12 months have gone by.
Pretty much what every MMO released since 2005 has done just more of it.
I'm not saying this to be negative about the game its just what I would expect from the business side of it. I believe the game will be good enough and have great story content. I just don't believe its something that is going to retain huge numbers of subscribers long term.
So I obviously don't agree with EA's CEO... I think they will be lucky to retain 500,000 subs by the end of the first year. (maybe 350,000 but for EA I'm sure they would be happy with that unlike some other companies).
Now we can wait for me to be wrong... Oh and what I'm saying here would still make the game a success as it would turn a profit. I'm just talking about what I see happening with it.
Most of my beliefs aren't based on anything in paticular with TOR. Its just a very saturated MMO market with the same basic game (with a few twists) being made over and over again. I think for any MMO to retain the 500,000 to 1.5 million subscribers that EA's CEO seems to want... the game will have to be far different and TOR just isn't that different.
Could Tabula Rasa and its $105 millions budget afford to fail? Not really. And it did.
About your second point please allow me to disagree. BioWare isn't aiming for what the players like. They are taking a working recipe (Wow) and fine tuning it. For example most players dislike wow cartoonish graphics, trinity system, and look based on gear stats: TOR will have all of this. Not what players wants.
The budget of Tabula Rasa has often been mentioned, but what people forget to mention is that the development team had to rigorously change the whole game plan more than halfway along the project. If you hear and read commentaries from Gariott and devs in the starter period, that's a completely different game with wholly different described mechanics than what TR ended up to become. For all it's worth, they might as well have been 2 games by different companies, thus distinct from eachother were they. That's dozens of millions of dollars in time and human resources flushed and spent on a wholly different design trajectory.
I think what the TR in the end actually spend on the game as it ended up to be, might be closer to a 50-60 million dollars maybe in time and manpower.
As for what players want, we're talking a playerbase interested in MMO gaming of 15-20 million worldwide, it's too large a group to be homogenous in their gaming desires. Of that group13-14 million is playing themepark MMO's, so it's a bit early to say that MMO gamers don't like WoW-styled themepark gameplay.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Depends what you define as failure. It is not that different than anything else currently on the market however it will have big sales out of the gate, then have fall offs at 1, 3, 6 months as the shiney new wears off and people realize they are doing the same thing in SWTOR that they have done for the last 10 years in other MMO's get bored and go back to and older game for an expansion or on to the next new shiney MMO to repeat the same process.
Hopefully it is not a total failure as that would be bad for the MMO's in general with the amount of money spent on this.
I don't think TOR will fail. I don't think it will COMPLETELY change the industry either. It has too much money involved, so it can't afford to.
That being said, it will probably introduce SOME new things while working with what makes WoW so successful. Bioware are doing to Blizzard what Blizzard did to SOE (EQ). They're looking at what people like, asking what they don't like and what they'd like changed. They implement what they like (if it isn't broken, don't fix it) and then make the wanted changes accordingly (it is broken and they will fix it, even though the current company refuses to do so).
Could Tabula Rasa and its $105 millions budget afford to fail? Not really. And it did.
Now I predict TOR with its estimated $100ish millions budget will go much farther the break point in the first month. I'd say around 2 milions box + digital copies sold... unless Diablo 3 launches either just before of just after it. Btw Diablo 3 is actually planned for around Thanksgiving this year.
About your second point please allow me to disagree. BioWare isn't aiming for what the players like. They are taking a working recipe (Wow) and fine tuning it. For example most players dislike wow cartoonish graphics, trinity system, and look based on gear stats: TOR will have all of this. Not what players wants.
Originally posted by xKingdomx
Originally posted by stayontarget
It will not fail, not because the game is any good. It's because people like to throw their money at badly made games. If you want quality then stop supporting badly made games.
You obviously haven't seen badly made games. TOR may not be the best game in construction, but it is far from "badly made"
Agreed, TOR will be a good game. Flawed with design mistakes but it shall be a finely polished game nonetheless.
Just because you disagree on some design decisions, it does not make them flawed.
I'll disagree on them not doing what the players want.
Gratned the graphics aren't the best in the world, and players did want super realistic. The problem falls into longetivity, most players agree that super realitic (what players wanted) doesn't last as long visual wise as something stylized. BUt as for not doing what players wanted, i'll disagree and add proof along with it.
Players really didn't want Jedi Wizard. Bioware saw this put out a poll and asked out of 5 or so choices which one they'd want. Jedi consular won out by popular vote..So, Bioware changed the name from Jedi Wizard to Jedi Consular.
Second People really didn't like the old UI (beta players) so Bioware changed it up to what we have today.
They are also giving fans the ability to have a Bioware style game inside of an MMO, so that way they can share the adventure they have inside of the kotor universe, with others.
So i'll just disagree on them not giving people what they want, and add i think some people want something and if Bioware doesn't implement that then somehow Bioware isn't doing what the people want...personaly myself I like the graphics (i didn't care for them at first but they got better and now they are good imo).
#1 There's a difference between low polys and cartoonish graphics.
#2 The old UI was only a place holder and I for one prefer it as the new one is bolder and more intrusive
#3 The Jedi Wizard is just a field change in the DB, it's done in like 2 min?
#4 TOR doesn't really look like Kotor, more like Sci-Fi Wow
#5 For example in all polls based on gear vs stats, social cloting and so on over 80% of the voters said they want a social clothing tab and are bored with Wow system obliging you to wear your stats. => BioWare answer: no social clothing tab.
For the space combat, before the reveal, in all polls the StarFox and like tube shooter got around 3% votes => BioWare answer: tube shooter.
Same for the playable alien species => BioWare answer: blue - green - red - blind humanoids.
Also check the polls on Pazaak and pod racing => BioWare answer: not even at launch
And for the record I'm speaking of polls with over 1k votes, which we can agree gives a very good view with a very low margin of error.
Would BioWare/LA answer players needs and want the game would look like this:
Game IS going to fail TERRIBLY. but it wont die because theres plenty of people who will cling to an mmo with "Star Wars" in the title even if its terrible.
why it will fail:
- theme park / many linear maps
- boring repetitive quests with LONGGGG voiceovers that nobody cares about and you want to skip over anyway.
- instancing / phasing
- WoW clone, follows WoWs EXACT skill system and point progression and levels, as well as many other aspects of WoW.
- bad graphics, also bad performance with bad graphics. (you cant play it on a crappy laptop)
Could Tabula Rasa and its $105 millions budget afford to fail? Not really. And it did.
About your second point please allow me to disagree. BioWare isn't aiming for what the players like. They are taking a working recipe (Wow) and fine tuning it. For example most players dislike wow cartoonish graphics, trinity system, and look based on gear stats: TOR will have all of this. Not what players wants.
The budget of Tabula Rasa has often been mentioned, but what people forget to mention is that the development team had to rigorously change the whole game plan more than halfway along the project. If you hear and read commentaries from Gariott and devs in the starter period, that's a completely different game with wholly different described mechanics than what TR ended up to become. For all it's worth, they might as well have been 2 games by different companies, thus distinct from eachother were they. That's dozens of millions of dollars in time and human resources flushed and spent on a wholly different design trajectory.
I think what the TR in the end actually spend on the game as it ended up to be, might be closer to a 50-60 million dollars maybe in time and manpower.
As for what players want, we're talking a playerbase interested in MMO gaming of 15-20 million worldwide, it's too large a group to be homogenous in their gaming desires. Of that group13-14 million is playing themepark MMO's, so it's a bit early to say that MMO gamers don't like WoW-styled themepark gameplay.
It could be worse. Remember when lotro changed dev companies?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Game IS going to fail TERRIBLY. but it wont die because theres plenty of people who will cling to an mmo with "Star Wars" in the title even if its terrible.
why it will fail:
- theme park / many linear maps
- boring repetitive quests with LONGGGG voiceovers that nobody cares about and you want to skip over anyway.
- instancing / phasing
- WoW clone, follows WoWs EXACT skill system and point progression and levels, as well as many other aspects of WoW.
- bad graphics, also bad performance with bad graphics. (you cant play it on a crappy laptop)
Considering none of your information is based on facts and all just you saying "I don't like this so it is going to fail" I am going to go out on a limb and say that the reason you say people will "cling to it" even if it is terrible is because you don't want to be wrong if it succeeds. Not to mention some of your information is based on a pre-conceived notion that certain elements are bad by their nature since you have not played the game. Adding a statement about the game's performance 3-5 months before ship, also not having played the game, does not help your case. People don't play MMOs for months and years because they are lunatic fan boys, they play them because they LIKE them. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but nothing to warrant calling a game a success or a failure based on it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Game IS going to fail TERRIBLY. but it wont die because theres plenty of people who will cling to an mmo with "Star Wars" in the title even if its terrible.It appears you may not know much about the game, or at least not enough to make such a "statement of fact" type of comment as this.
why it will fail:
- theme park / many linear maps I think there will be some element of this in the game and is the ONLY thing I agree on in this post. It will be theme park like but that may not be bad. The maps ARE going to be huge.
- boring repetitive quests with LONGGGG voiceovers that nobody cares about and you want to skip over anyway. You know this how? Personally, I LOVE ME 1& 2, Dragon Age, etc dialogue quests with decisions that actually have an impact. I hope the stories are as entertaining as some of those from the games i mentioned. I think people will care about the dialogue because your decision will change the outcome for your character, irrevokably.
- instancing / phasing There will be a little instancing on planets but they have stated repeatedly they are keeping it to a minimum and want most of the game inthe open world. Besides, if done right this can be a great tool to advance the story arc.
- WoW clone, follows WoWs EXACT skill system and point progression and levels, as well as many other aspects of WoW. Really? So WOW has you pick a base class that branches into an advanced class? Heck, I mean, I have not played WOW in years but as I recall a Rogue is a Rogue throughout all levels. Crafting in WOW is done with the aid of companion characters? hmmm. Maybe this is unique to SWTOR, what do ya think? Multiplayer dialogue is in WOW? Really, or is that unique to SWTOR too. Looks less and less like WOW as I run through it and I have not even scratched the surface. uhm....space combat?!?!? Mobile player ships, companions you can take on party quests, fully voiced, the list of seperators go on and on.
- bad graphics, also bad performance with bad graphics. (you cant play it on a crappy laptop) How do you know about performance? The game is not even speced out for min requirements yet. bad graphics? Stylized, yes, but bad...that is a matter of personal taste. They seem to get better as time goes on and I personally like them. I am guessing the millions of clone wars tv show fans might like them too.
WAYYYYY offf base. Let me explain why I say that. See above.
It won't fail because of the star wars name and bioware. I won't be playing it because I'm tired of that style of combat. I was hoping it would be fast pace action combat not the point to click. I love star wars as much as the next guy but this game just looks the same as wow/rift or what ever you want to compare it to.
I've seen the game in action and it just fails to impress me. Its the same game with a new coat as most mmo's are today.
I feel that bioware let us down on the combat. I'm sure the story will be great as thats what bioware is great at.
In the end its a normal mmo (not a clone) go here kill this come back. Yes theme park mmo.
TOR will be epic win on box sales from hype alone...
TOR wont fail in subs due to the name and fanboies alone...
BUT... it wont be the WoW killer that it should have been.... it has the $, the IP, and the dev behind it. it SHOULD be THE WoW killer that "could have been" but I seriously doubt it would do THAT much better then even Rift on sustainability... so in that sense, it's a "heroic fail"
EA will earn it's $ back from box sales, but not much in the long term.
Comments
Don't worry I saw the vids and some leaked stuff that have been kindly provided to me even before October 2008...
I have to be honest here. Might be a beta however regarding they are aiming for september/october I'm worried. The AI seemed not really good. Wait and see. At least it can only improve
Don't worry I buy the CE and we might even meet in game!
What I find interesting is that TOR was not even the best mmo at E3 yet we sit here and debate it's merits soley on it's relation to the franchise license.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Never tell me the odds!
Is that because the best mmo @ e3 is that important of a predictor?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I agree. This game doesn't look that special and if it didn't have Star Wars in the name few would care. If they named it Space Wars no one would care. And the style of art they choose makes it look generic sci-fi. Take away the lightsabers and Yoda from most screenshots and it could be any sci-fi game.
Being so cloes to release...yeah it is and it does not bode well for BW.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I don't think TOR will fail. I don't think it will COMPLETELY change the industry either. It has too much money involved, so it can't afford to.
That being said, it will probably introduce SOME new things while working with what makes WoW so successful. Bioware are doing to Blizzard what Blizzard did to SOE (EQ). They're looking at what people like, asking what they don't like and what they'd like changed. They implement what they like (if it isn't broken, don't fix it) and then make the wanted changes accordingly (it is broken and they will fix it, even though the current company refuses to do so). It cost SOE over one million subs in less than six months. I'm not saying that TOR will evicerate WoW, but it could. I mean, we certainly didn't predict the huge success WoW became. And couple TOR with the fact that it plays like WoW (easy to pick up) AND supports a Star Wars license (which allows even the non-fantasy gamer geeks to appreciate the game) and you could potentially get even MORE people into MMO's.
Say what you want about WoW (I personally can't stand the game anymore) but one thing it did do and that's get more money flowing into the genre. We've had a lot of bad games come out over the years, but lessons were learned. We've also had some good games come out. We are certainly a FAR cry from the days of EQ, DAOC, Anarchy Online and Ultime Online being your few MMO choices. I still remember the devs at SOE telling players "If you don't like how this game runs, feel free to play something else." And they did, as WoW took off into the stratosphere. We've not seen a huge boom in the genre since, but it's bound to happen soon and TOR stands a good chance of being the game that does it.
Got my pre-order paid for, have you?
you sir get the cookie!!!
congrats!
It will not fail, not because the game is any good. It's because people like to throw their money at badly made games. If you want quality then stop supporting badly made games.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
You obviously haven't seen badly made games. TOR may not be the best game in construction, but it is far from "badly made"
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Could Tabula Rasa and its $105 millions budget afford to fail? Not really. And it did.
Now I predict TOR with its estimated $100ish millions budget will go much farther the break point in the first month. I'd say around 2 milions box + digital copies sold... unless Diablo 3 launches either just before of just after it. Btw Diablo 3 is actually planned for around Thanksgiving this year.
About your second point please allow me to disagree. BioWare isn't aiming for what the players like. They are taking a working recipe (Wow) and fine tuning it. For example most players dislike wow cartoonish graphics, trinity system, and look based on gear stats: TOR will have all of this. Not what players wants.
Agreed, TOR will be a good game. Flawed with design mistakes but it shall be a finely polished game nonetheless.
I'll disagree on them not doing what the players want.
Gratned the graphics aren't the best in the world, and players did want super realistic. The problem falls into longetivity, most players agree that super realitic (what players wanted) doesn't last as long visual wise as something stylized. BUt as for not doing what players wanted, i'll disagree and add proof along with it.
Players really didn't want Jedi Wizard. Bioware saw this put out a poll and asked out of 5 or so choices which one they'd want. Jedi consular won out by popular vote..So, Bioware changed the name from Jedi Wizard to Jedi Consular.
Second People really didn't like the old UI (beta players) so Bioware changed it up to what we have today.
They are also giving fans the ability to have a Bioware style game inside of an MMO, so that way they can share the adventure they have inside of the kotor universe, with others.
So i'll just disagree on them not giving people what they want, and add i think some people want something and if Bioware doesn't implement that then somehow Bioware isn't doing what the people want...personaly myself I like the graphics (i didn't care for them at first but they got better and now they are good imo).
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I'm sure this had already been said. I am going to say first that TOR from the business end will be a success but...
I believe TOR will have historic box sales. I wouldn't be suprised to see 2 to 3 million copies sold, that would include digital copies.
I also believe that launch will be a mess simply due to the huge amount of people trying to get in game. The response will be to open up many new servers and they will have to at the time. I also believe that the game will see massive subscription loss during the first year.. which will result in server mergers before 12 months have gone by.
Pretty much what every MMO released since 2005 has done just more of it.
I'm not saying this to be negative about the game its just what I would expect from the business side of it. I believe the game will be good enough and have great story content. I just don't believe its something that is going to retain huge numbers of subscribers long term.
So I obviously don't agree with EA's CEO... I think they will be lucky to retain 500,000 subs by the end of the first year. (maybe 350,000 but for EA I'm sure they would be happy with that unlike some other companies).
Now we can wait for me to be wrong... Oh and what I'm saying here would still make the game a success as it would turn a profit. I'm just talking about what I see happening with it.
Most of my beliefs aren't based on anything in paticular with TOR. Its just a very saturated MMO market with the same basic game (with a few twists) being made over and over again. I think for any MMO to retain the 500,000 to 1.5 million subscribers that EA's CEO seems to want... the game will have to be far different and TOR just isn't that different.
The budget of Tabula Rasa has often been mentioned, but what people forget to mention is that the development team had to rigorously change the whole game plan more than halfway along the project. If you hear and read commentaries from Gariott and devs in the starter period, that's a completely different game with wholly different described mechanics than what TR ended up to become. For all it's worth, they might as well have been 2 games by different companies, thus distinct from eachother were they. That's dozens of millions of dollars in time and human resources flushed and spent on a wholly different design trajectory.
I think what the TR in the end actually spend on the game as it ended up to be, might be closer to a 50-60 million dollars maybe in time and manpower.
As for what players want, we're talking a playerbase interested in MMO gaming of 15-20 million worldwide, it's too large a group to be homogenous in their gaming desires. Of that group13-14 million is playing themepark MMO's, so it's a bit early to say that MMO gamers don't like WoW-styled themepark gameplay.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Depends what you define as failure. It is not that different than anything else currently on the market however it will have big sales out of the gate, then have fall offs at 1, 3, 6 months as the shiney new wears off and people realize they are doing the same thing in SWTOR that they have done for the last 10 years in other MMO's get bored and go back to and older game for an expansion or on to the next new shiney MMO to repeat the same process.
Hopefully it is not a total failure as that would be bad for the MMO's in general with the amount of money spent on this.
Just because you disagree on some design decisions, it does not make them flawed.
#1 There's a difference between low polys and cartoonish graphics.
#2 The old UI was only a place holder and I for one prefer it as the new one is bolder and more intrusive
#3 The Jedi Wizard is just a field change in the DB, it's done in like 2 min?
#4 TOR doesn't really look like Kotor, more like Sci-Fi Wow
#5 For example in all polls based on gear vs stats, social cloting and so on over 80% of the voters said they want a social clothing tab and are bored with Wow system obliging you to wear your stats. => BioWare answer: no social clothing tab.
For the space combat, before the reveal, in all polls the StarFox and like tube shooter got around 3% votes => BioWare answer: tube shooter.
Same for the playable alien species => BioWare answer: blue - green - red - blind humanoids.
Also check the polls on Pazaak and pod racing => BioWare answer: not even at launch
And for the record I'm speaking of polls with over 1k votes, which we can agree gives a very good view with a very low margin of error.
Would BioWare/LA answer players needs and want the game would look like this:
Stylised realistic graphics with average polys
Wookies and many other playable alien races
3D space shooter (X-wing or BF type)
Social clothing or Aion system
Pazaak and pod racing
Now what would be the game of my liking:
- No levels
- No trinity system
- Non combat classes
- Enhanced SWG crafting system
- FPS combat with LOS
- X-wing based combat system
- Smuggling missions and player bounties
Game IS going to fail TERRIBLY. but it wont die because theres plenty of people who will cling to an mmo with "Star Wars" in the title even if its terrible.
why it will fail:
- theme park / many linear maps
- boring repetitive quests with LONGGGG voiceovers that nobody cares about and you want to skip over anyway.
- instancing / phasing
- WoW clone, follows WoWs EXACT skill system and point progression and levels, as well as many other aspects of WoW.
- bad graphics, also bad performance with bad graphics. (you cant play it on a crappy laptop)
www.RisingSunGaming.com
#RisingSunGaming
It could be worse. Remember when lotro changed dev companies?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You really need to look up the definitions of words like "exact".
I honestly don't know what you people want...
A game with say 10 millions players with:
-10 million individually crafted, 10 million hour story lines.
-10 million unique and totally different looking armor sets
-10 million unique and totally original companion characters
-Full 3D "game within a game" flight simulator
-10 million unique and totally original starship designs
{mod edit}
Considering none of your information is based on facts and all just you saying "I don't like this so it is going to fail" I am going to go out on a limb and say that the reason you say people will "cling to it" even if it is terrible is because you don't want to be wrong if it succeeds. Not to mention some of your information is based on a pre-conceived notion that certain elements are bad by their nature since you have not played the game. Adding a statement about the game's performance 3-5 months before ship, also not having played the game, does not help your case. People don't play MMOs for months and years because they are lunatic fan boys, they play them because they LIKE them. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but nothing to warrant calling a game a success or a failure based on it.
Wow. +42
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
WAYYYYY offf base. Let me explain why I say that. See above.
It won't fail because of the star wars name and bioware. I won't be playing it because I'm tired of that style of combat. I was hoping it would be fast pace action combat not the point to click. I love star wars as much as the next guy but this game just looks the same as wow/rift or what ever you want to compare it to.
I've seen the game in action and it just fails to impress me. Its the same game with a new coat as most mmo's are today.
I feel that bioware let us down on the combat. I'm sure the story will be great as thats what bioware is great at.
In the end its a normal mmo (not a clone) go here kill this come back. Yes theme park mmo.
Good luck to all of you that buy and enjoy it.
TOR will be epic win on box sales from hype alone...
TOR wont fail in subs due to the name and fanboies alone...
BUT... it wont be the WoW killer that it should have been.... it has the $, the IP, and the dev behind it. it SHOULD be THE WoW killer that "could have been" but I seriously doubt it would do THAT much better then even Rift on sustainability... so in that sense, it's a "heroic fail"
EA will earn it's $ back from box sales, but not much in the long term.