SOE only bought Vanguard to kill it. You guys do realize this, yes?
It was too good a game and Everquest felt threatened, so they waved the almighty dollar in the right faces and now we have what could have been in the hands of a company no intelligent MMO gamer would ever hand money to.
Yea their main reason for buying it was for the developers. Many of whom worked on the original Everquest. They are now working on Everquest Next. SOE ran Vanguard and Everquest 2 concurrently and further developement funds went towards the one with more players (EQ2).
And SOE actually bought Vanguard and fixed most of its problems.
Taking the tin-foil hat off for a momment ... SoE didn't buy Vanguard to kill it, thats just nonsense.
As far as other developers who might have had the funds to aquire the project.
Ehh .. I'm drawing a blank , perhaps NcSoft .... I really don't know who else that would have the money to purchase such a risk. I do not think any small team could have purchased it , the only option were the bigger names at the time.
SOE only bought Vanguard to kill it. You guys do realize this, yes?
It was too good a game and Everquest felt threatened, so they waved the almighty dollar in the right faces and now we have what could have been in the hands of a company no intelligent MMO gamer would ever hand money to.
Yea their main reason for buying it was for the developers. Many of whom worked on the original Everquest. They are now working on Everquest Next. SOE ran Vanguard and Everquest 2 concurrently and further developement funds went towards the one with more players (EQ2).
And SOE actually bought Vanguard and fixed most of its problems.
Taking the tin-foil hat off for a momment ... SoE didn't buy Vanguard to kill it, thats just nonsense.
As far as other developers who might have had the funds to aquire the project.
Ehh .. I'm drawing a blank , perhaps NcSoft .... I really don't know who else that would have the money to purchase such a risk. I do not think any small team could have purchased it , the only option were the bigger names at the time.
SOE bought Sigil for the employees and for development on future games if Vanguard didn't work out. SOE didn't buy Vanguard because they thought it was going to be a fantastic MMO or anything. They gave it a chance but it was so messed up at launch it never recovered. And then running and developing three games so alike (EQ, EQ2, Vanguard) didn't make sense. So Vanguard's development team was cut and started working on Everquest Next.
I would have done the same thing. It's one of the rare smart decisions SOE ever made. Imagine if Blizzard owned Wow, Rift, and WAR. You cut the one that isn't profitable with a development team.
Everything is turning F2P... I am just waiting.. Hoping.. For SOE to go ahead and make Vanguard F2P...
Just waiting for that announcement, so I can prepare my glorious return to the lands of Telon..
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
The Vanguard debate is always an interesting and heated one, and I see it as similar to Tabula Rasa. For the fact that Vanguard is a great game, its poor launch and subsequent freefall in subscribers left the game a financial pitfall where money goes to never be seen again. As with Tabula Rasa, those of us who love the game would like to blame the acquiring publisher (NCsoft in the previous case, Sony in this case), but the blame more belongs on the developers who initially released the game, and perhaps even the players who bailed early and now wonder why Sony isn't willing to put money in the game.
Here's John Smedley's quote from SyndCon last year:
We’re thinking about specific next steps for Vangaurd, but we’re not shutting it down or anything like that. We want to add more stuff to it. Will we change the business model? That’s the question people keep asking me. Will it go free-to-play? I don’t know – we’ve discussed it. What we’ll decide? I’m not sure yet. We’re going to see where EverQuest II Extended goes. But certainly if we make a decision like that, it won’t be without deciding to add more content to the game.
I think Sony would love to do more work on Vanguard. However, you're probably already aware of Sony's recent financial issues (layoffs), so getting funds to deliver a Vanguard: Extended will probably be one of the lower priorities.
Silius is the main reson Vanguard failed. His pie eyed chasing of the WoW dollar took a niche game with some bugs and turned it into a chutes and ladders WoW knock-off. The PC gaming world would greatly benefit if the entire industry got a restraining order for Silius, Saleem Grant.
That guy did more harm then Smed ever could, or did.
The Vanguard debate is always an interesting and heated one, and I see it as similar to Tabula Rasa. For the fact that Vanguard is a great game, its poor launch and subsequent freefall in subscribers left the game a financial pitfall where money goes to never be seen again. As with Tabula Rasa, those of us who love the game would like to blame the acquiring publisher (NCsoft in the previous case, Sony in this case), but the blame more belongs on the developers who initially released the game, and perhaps even the players who bailed early and now wonder why Sony isn't willing to put money in the game.
Here's John Smedley's quote from SyndCon last year:
We’re thinking about specific next steps for Vangaurd, but we’re not shutting it down or anything like that. We want to add more stuff to it. Will we change the business model? That’s the question people keep asking me. Will it go free-to-play? I don’t know – we’ve discussed it. What we’ll decide? I’m not sure yet. We’re going to see where EverQuest II Extended goes. But certainly if we make a decision like that, it won’t be without deciding to add more content to the game.
I think Sony would love to do more work on Vanguard. However, you're probably already aware of Sony's recent financial issues (layoffs), so getting funds to deliver a Vanguard: Extended will probably be one of the lower priorities.
Couldn't agree more, but I think what did it for most players (even though they bought the game) was the fact that SOE put their name on the product.. No matter if they were packaging manuals or stamping price tags on boxes, coming off of the biggest blunder in the history of MMO's (yes, the legendary NGE "crisis"), you definitely didn't want to see these guys behind any product for a while..
Also, I dont want an Extended version of Vanguard.. No seperate "premium" servers to waste money on, Just one or two solid F2P servers with the usual shop stuff like EQ2X.. Or they could just sell the I.P... I am sure if these F2P companies are spending billions of dollars on games without the makeup and richness of vanguard, they would surely buy this gem for a hefty price which then SOE can funnel the funds into their own projects like EQNext and PlanetsideNext..
Or they could just sell the I.P... I am sure if these F2P companies are spending billions of dollars on games without the makeup and richness of vanguard, they would surely buy this gem for a hefty price which then SOE can funnel the funds into their own projects like EQNext and PlanetsideNext..
SOE won't sell Vanguard nor the IP itself. I'm not even sure the IP would be worth much since Vanguard wasn't a huge hit or anything. And SOE can always use the IP if the Everquest brand becomes stale and Everquest Next isn't a huge hit.
No advertisement....Sure it's an older mmo, but nothing at all.
You can't find a copy in stores. Going to SOE.com you have to click on "PC Games" > "page three" to find it. Yes they have a free trial ( and it's a good one ). But you have to know about Vanguard before you would even search for it. I work with thousands of people and talk about video games and mmo with many of them. NO ONE EVEN KNOWS WHAT VANGURD IS. I'll add to this that people really don't know about any mmo other than WoW, I'll say that !!....but still nothing.
Free time is ONLY given to people that played an SOE game in the past. THIS IS NOT ADVERTISEMENT, it's giving the same people another chance.
Think real hard !....mmorpg.com is a good site for info on mmo's.....But how many people know about mmorpg.com ? Maybe about 5% of hard mmo players, and .001% of all video game players, and .000001 % of the total population. And to single out Vanguard on the list of about 100 mmo's on this site by the total population is about .0000000000001%
The population is about what you can expect from a no (none) advertisement game !
SOE, you should not own this game !!
HAY !!! Now that I read my own post, I'm thinking that a re-launch may not really be a bad idea. Change the box, give it a new cut seen, fix a few things and ADVERTISE !.... And most of all take it away from SOE !
euhmm.. here in the netherlands in a small village and a small local store they have vanguard on the shelves
I bet it's been there since launch
Chortle!
Seriously, SOW didn't ruin this game. Vangaurd was in trouble long before they got involved. SOE did the smart thing by not putting in good money after bad. Money doesn't fix everything unless your point is to dump all the code and start over.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Or they could just sell the I.P... I am sure if these F2P companies are spending billions of dollars on games without the makeup and richness of vanguard, they would surely buy this gem for a hefty price which then SOE can funnel the funds into their own projects like EQNext and PlanetsideNext..
SOE won't sell Vanguard nor the IP itself. I'm not even sure the IP would be worth much since Vanguard wasn't a huge hit or anything. And SOE can always use the IP if the Everquest brand becomes stale and Everquest Next isn't a huge hit.
I hate to say it but, SOE trying anything new with this I.P. would go over as smoothly as if they announced making another Star Wars based game.. It's already sunk for them, best to let another company try and invigorate it somehow.. But I see what you are saying though and it's probably pretty accurate as to their thinking with it..
Vanguard was ment to be the best mmo ever made in its time. Time greed and money steped in the way of that. If you played it at any point in time release until now you can easly see that the game was large, well figured out and everything was in there. The only thing it needed was time to finish......SOE did the bare min to make it playable.
SOE sucks, they dont ever fix there mmos, they make paid expantions ( EQ1 & EQ2 ). They can't justify a paid expantion for Vanguard because it's already a full game. So they do nothing with it.
This is why the FBI should be called in. SOE should not own it !
Ahem do you know how silly that sounds to call the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation to take over a company. You obviously don't understand how our government agencies work. If you want to take a company down you go to the SEC, the FBI is criminal investigations. There is nothing criminal in how they run their business, now from an ethical standpoint that is where the SEC would get involved.
However there is no need to call the FBI to take them over, that is not what the FBI does. The FBI investigates and takes action against criminal individuals and the mafia, now if you have proof they are doing something along the criminal lines then lets see it, otherwise asking the FBI to get involved is like going down to your local sheriff's department and saying I think my neighbor should not be watering their grass.
Vanguard was ment to be the best mmo ever made in its time. Time greed and money steped in the way of that. If you played it at any point in time release until now you can easly see that the game was large, well figured out and everything was in there. The only thing it needed was time to finish......SOE did the bare min to make it playable.
SOE sucks, they dont ever fix there mmos, they make paid expantions ( EQ1 & EQ2 ). They can't justify a paid expantion for Vanguard because it's already a full game. So they do nothing with it.
This is why the FBI should be called in. SOE should not own it !
Ahem do you know how silly that sounds to call the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation to take over a company. You obviously don't understand how our government agencies work. If you want to take a company down you go to the SEC, the FBI is criminal investigations. There is nothing criminal in how they run their business, now from an ethical standpoint that is where the SEC would get involved.
However there is no need to call the FBI to take them over, that is not what the FBI does. The FBI investigates and takes action against criminal individuals and the mafia, now if you have proof they are doing something along the criminal lines then lets see it, otherwise asking the FBI to get involved is like going down to your local sheriff's department and saying I think my neighbor should not be watering their grass.
Come on I was just trying to make a point, the FBI thing was just just for fun....do I need to spell it out more for you ?
SOE bought Sigil for the employees and for development on future games if Vanguard didn't work out. SOE didn't buy Vanguard because they thought it was going to be a fantastic MMO or anything. They gave it a chance but it was so messed up at launch it never recovered. And then running and developing three games so alike (EQ, EQ2, Vanguard) didn't make sense. So Vanguard's development team was cut and started working on Everquest Next.
I would have done the same thing. It's one of the rare smart decisions SOE ever made. Imagine if Blizzard owned Wow, Rift, and WAR. You cut the one that isn't profitable with a development team.
EXACTLY.
Vanguard had serious, serious problems well before SOE entered the picture, starting with whatever the hell Sigil did to the Unreal engine when they tweaked it, and with the Gordian knot that is VG's code. Brad McQuaid over-promised and under-delivered with Microsoft, and they finally had enough, and the game was an unholy mess. SOE saved it and has made it playable for people. Without them, this game would never have seen the light of day.
However, SOE bought Sigil for the talent pool that was there, not for Vanguard. They made the game playable so they could see how it would do in the market. It tailed. They created a trial island to try and entice players to join. It didn't work much. They added some content to show that they were making an effort with VG. It made no difference. In the end, they decided to put those developers to better use and put them on other projects while keeping the Vanguard servers up and running for the few players that still want to play the game.
I'm always amused by the conventional wisdom that says that SOE bought VG to protect the EQ games. That shows a total lack of any business understanding at all. They bought VG and Sigil for the developers and for the extra studio space, and to see how the game would do on the market. When it failed, they moved all that purchased talent on to other things.
You folks need to get off the pedestal , the only reason you've been able to enjoy Vanguard this long is because SoE rescued it.
I keep hearing people say this same thing about Vanguard and I just don't understand where it comes from.
What exactly was Vanguard "rescued" from?
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from early release with proper funding? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a horrible launch? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a painfully slow death? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguards reputation by putting the SOE logo on the box? No.
I'm not sure what SOE rescued at all. All of those things were going to happen with or without SOE. It isn't like SOE rescued Vanguard from being a complete failure.
The only thing that is noteworthy that SOE has done is "rescue" Vanguard from being purchased by another developer. Looking at how many other failed games are being purchased by game developers who relaunch those games I think it is safe to assume Vanguard could have been in the same situation if it were not for SOE being involved.
You folks need to get off the pedestal , the only reason you've been able to enjoy Vanguard this long is because SoE rescued it.
I keep hearing people say this same thing about Vanguard and I just don't understand where it comes from.
What exactly was Vanguard "rescued" from?
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from early release with proper funding? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a horrible launch? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a painfully slow death? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguards reputation by putting the SOE logo on the box? No.
I'm not sure what SOE rescued at all. All of those things were going to happen with or without SOE. It isn't like SOE rescued Vanguard from being a complete failure.
The only thing that is noteworthy that SOE has done is "rescue" Vanguard from being purchased by another developer. Looking at how many other failed games are being purchased by game developers who relaunch those games I think it is safe to assume Vanguard could have been in the same situation if it were not for SOE being involved.
Er what?
Vanguard was developed by Sigil. Sigil was dumped by Microsoft because the game was bad. Developers were jumping ship from Sigil because management was bad. Vanguard had no publisher and no one was touching that game. SOE came in and signed on as a publisher but Sigil was the developer. Sigil released the game and no one bought it. Most of the people who did buy it couldn't play it because it was busted. The game launcehd with two classes that were never even finished. There were quest chains that just stopped at level 12. You had a quest and couldn't continue because the game didn't update the quest. That was 100% Sigil. 0% SOE.
Next, SOE purchased the game. So at this point they are both the developer and publisher. They went in, fixed it. Made it run on most machines. Fixed quest chains. Cut out completely broken content. Built a new starter island. Finished content that Sigil never finished in Beta. Built development tools so that customer support could actually do their job. Polished some graphics. Then after all that they gave it to everyone who had a station account. They made it free to play for 2 months for everybody. They made it free to all station players for 6 months. And the result was people didn't play it. The game didn't appeal to people. Since the game didn't draw players, and station pass access people don't even touch it then they started shrinking the dev team. Now its on life support and not one developer in this reality can save this game because its not a game that appeals to a large audience. I have a station pass and I log in for 10 minutes ever few months and I'm only reminded that the game sucks and delete it.
You folks need to get off the pedestal , the only reason you've been able to enjoy Vanguard this long is because SoE rescued it.
I keep hearing people say this same thing about Vanguard and I just don't understand where it comes from.
What exactly was Vanguard "rescued" from?
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from early release with proper funding? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a horrible launch? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a painfully slow death? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguards reputation by putting the SOE logo on the box? No.
I'm not sure what SOE rescued at all. All of those things were going to happen with or without SOE. It isn't like SOE rescued Vanguard from being a complete failure.
The only thing that is noteworthy that SOE has done is "rescue" Vanguard from being purchased by another developer. Looking at how many other failed games are being purchased by game developers who relaunch those games I think it is safe to assume Vanguard could have been in the same situation if it were not for SOE being involved.
Please show me another company who is willing to buy it out, and make a offer. We head there was one a year or so back. But honestly in the shape vanguard is in my money would be on gamersfirst, after all they just bought FE and it was a flop.
No sigil was failing, they approached soe, not the other way around. They new they had a flop thus soe agreed to buy them out.
Folks so forget the alpha and beta of Vanguard and all that went on. And folks complaining that soe is criminal on how they advertise the game. I would point at eq1, and eq2 DO you see any ADVERTISING???? NO, and those are the mainstay games that everybody keeps saying the reason why soe bought them out. SOE has never advertised any of their games much except DCUO and what a flop that is. Now and then I see a banner add for eq2 extended but really the only advertising that SOE gets is word of mouth.
Honestly do you really thing with all the bad publicity that vanguard has that anybody will come play? Take a look at the free 45 days that all of us got because of the hack. Do you see the servers packed, NO!.
Honestly I want to see a game company try to buy them out, is it going to happen, I very much don't think so. No game company going to touch this game.
Vanguard was developed by Sigil. Sigil was dumped by Microsoft because the game was bad. Developers were jumping ship from Sigil because management was bad. Vanguard had no publisher and no one was touching that game. SOE came in and signed on as a publisher but Sigil was the developer. Sigil released the game and no one bought it. Most of the people who did buy it couldn't play it because it was busted. The game launcehd with two classes that were never even finished. There were quest chains that just stopped at level 12. You had a quest and couldn't continue because the game didn't update the quest. That was 100% Sigil. 0% SOE.
Next, SOE purchased the game. So at this point they are both the developer and publisher. They went in, fixed it. Made it run on most machines. Fixed quest chains. Cut out completely broken content. Built a new starter island. Finished content that Sigil never finished in Beta. Built development tools so that customer support could actually do their job. Polished some graphics. Then after all that they gave it to everyone who had a station account. They made it free to play for 2 months for everybody. They made it free to all station players for 6 months. And the result was people didn't play it. The game didn't appeal to people. Since the game didn't draw players, and station pass access people don't even touch it then they started shrinking the dev team. Now its on life support and not one developer in this reality can save this game because its not a game that appeals to a large audience. I have a station pass and I log in for 10 minutes ever few months and I'm only reminded that the game sucks and delete it.
We will never know who might have gotten involved with Vanguard, because SOE was the first person Brad approached. Sigil and SOE signed a deal before Brad ever went looking elsewhere. Brad said as much in his blogs.
Tell me what company in their right mind would want to be involved in a project that has 3 companies already involved? SOE/Sigil publishing partnership and Microsoft still being owed a balloon payment?
SOE has spent the last four years throwing table scraps at Vanguard and the summary of their efforts is that they almost got the game into decent enough shape to be launch ready. Most of that was finishing projects Sigil had already started. Then they undid all the positive with the horrible 51-55 half assed content. That is the summary of four years of salvation?
Again I have to ask what exactly was Vanguard rescued from, because I am not seeing it.
Please show me another company who is willing to buy it out, and make a offer. We head there was one a year or so back. But honestly in the shape vanguard is in my money would be on gamersfirst, after all they just bought FE and it was a flop.
No sigil was failing, they approached soe, not the other way around. They new they had a flop thus soe agreed to buy them out.
Folks so forget the alpha and beta of Vanguard and all that went on. And folks complaining that soe is criminal on how they advertise the game. I would point at eq1, and eq2 DO you see any ADVERTISING???? NO, and those are the mainstay games that everybody keeps saying the reason why soe bought them out. SOE has never advertised any of their games much except DCUO and what a flop that is. Now and then I see a banner add for eq2 extended but really the only advertising that SOE gets is word of mouth.
Honestly do you really thing with all the bad publicity that vanguard has that anybody will come play? Take a look at the free 45 days that all of us got because of the hack. Do you see the servers packed, NO!.
Honestly I want to see a game company try to buy them out, is it going to happen, I very much don't think so. No game company going to touch this game.
How can I possibly name companies who might buy Vanguard? I was pointing out that there have been a lot of various companies buying up underperforming/failed games, putting in some development and rereleasing them. So it is a very good possibility that someone might do the same for Vanguard. There have been rumors of several offers being made to SOE for Vanguard.
It sounds like you started off by addressing my points in the first paragraph, but then drifted off into addressing things to a general population in the following paragraphs. I'm not going to respond to all those points, because I don't think they apply to me and I actually agree with what you said. Aside from SOE not advertising. There was a time when they did, but advertising will only get people to try a game, not stick around.
This is the saddest part of the whole situation. Vanguard, even with all of its problems is still better than most games on the market. With proper support it could still draw in a decent number of players, because it fills a niche that isn't being addressed.
This is the saddest part of the whole situation. Vanguard, even with all of its problems is still better than most games on the market. With proper support it could still draw in a decent number of players, because it fills a niche that isn't being addressed.
It's a four year old game that crashed and burned on its launch and which has been abandoned by its developers except as a free paycheck from the small number of players who still choose to log in.
SOE just gave people 45 free days of play for all their games. VG hasn't shown any marked population improvement, and people this site and elsewhere knew about that free game time. Exactly how is VG supposed to draw a decent number of players if it can't even gain the interest of its former playerbase?
I agree with what you are saying, but 45 free days to a dead unsupported game that could close down any day isn't exactly going to draw in crowds. Not to mention the 45 days arn't some promotion but some sort of apology for the security breach.
Players need to feel confident that a developer is going to support a game. Otherwise there isn't much point in investing time into that game when there are so many other choices. Regardless of the untapped potential in a game.
It is funny how the conversation starts about saving the game but always turn into a history lesson on whose fault it was .What difference does it matter, the game isn't getting love from anyone. Sheesh...
Hey, since Gamersfirst, I think that's who it is, is buying everything of late and converting them to FTP, SOE should sell VG to them. I would be all over that. Imagine owning APB, FE and VG? And revitalizing them with FTP and new devs. WoW.
It is funny how the conversation starts about saving the game but always turn into a history lesson on whose fault it was .What difference does it matter, the game isn't getting love from anyone. Sheesh...
Well to be completely fair, this thread didn't start out as the typical save vanguard rah rah rah post and it most certainly has the overtone of SOE not being responsible enough to deserve having the game.
Actually *pushes his specs back up his nose* I saw quite a few people coming back to Vanguard in the wake of the hacker fiasco and the guild I belong to is always busy. It's a marked improvement on how it felt when I first picked the game off Steam a year ago; I tried it for a few days and left because it was so bloody barren. But with people it's actually a hell of a good PvE game, I may cautiously say one of the best. I just got off a group at level 16 in Khegor's End and we had one absolute stonker of a boss battle at the end of the dungeon crawl - it felt proper epic.
And it's good because the original content is there, but also because SoE made it playable. So there, I'm giving credit where it's due.
But now I think it's time to open up Vanguard with a, (carefully thought out), F2P model.
I'm not shaking the hand of hyperbole when I say if this game received a notable population spike with a F2P model it could be golden. Nevermind the worries about a degredation of the quality of player and all that, that's what ignore lists are for. Just getting bodies in would really resurrect this game - it's stable enough and got the content to go places.
Comments
Taking the tin-foil hat off for a momment ... SoE didn't buy Vanguard to kill it, thats just nonsense.
As far as other developers who might have had the funds to aquire the project.
Ehh .. I'm drawing a blank , perhaps NcSoft .... I really don't know who else that would have the money to purchase such a risk. I do not think any small team could have purchased it , the only option were the bigger names at the time.
SOE bought Sigil for the employees and for development on future games if Vanguard didn't work out. SOE didn't buy Vanguard because they thought it was going to be a fantastic MMO or anything. They gave it a chance but it was so messed up at launch it never recovered. And then running and developing three games so alike (EQ, EQ2, Vanguard) didn't make sense. So Vanguard's development team was cut and started working on Everquest Next.
I would have done the same thing. It's one of the rare smart decisions SOE ever made. Imagine if Blizzard owned Wow, Rift, and WAR. You cut the one that isn't profitable with a development team.
Everything is turning F2P... I am just waiting.. Hoping.. For SOE to go ahead and make Vanguard F2P...
Just waiting for that announcement, so I can prepare my glorious return to the lands of Telon..
The Vanguard debate is always an interesting and heated one, and I see it as similar to Tabula Rasa. For the fact that Vanguard is a great game, its poor launch and subsequent freefall in subscribers left the game a financial pitfall where money goes to never be seen again. As with Tabula Rasa, those of us who love the game would like to blame the acquiring publisher (NCsoft in the previous case, Sony in this case), but the blame more belongs on the developers who initially released the game, and perhaps even the players who bailed early and now wonder why Sony isn't willing to put money in the game.
Here's John Smedley's quote from SyndCon last year:
We’re thinking about specific next steps for Vangaurd, but we’re not shutting it down or anything like that. We want to add more stuff to it. Will we change the business model? That’s the question people keep asking me. Will it go free-to-play? I don’t know – we’ve discussed it. What we’ll decide? I’m not sure yet. We’re going to see where EverQuest II Extended goes. But certainly if we make a decision like that, it won’t be without deciding to add more content to the game.
I think Sony would love to do more work on Vanguard. However, you're probably already aware of Sony's recent financial issues (layoffs), so getting funds to deliver a Vanguard: Extended will probably be one of the lower priorities.
Silius is the main reson Vanguard failed. His pie eyed chasing of the WoW dollar took a niche game with some bugs and turned it into a chutes and ladders WoW knock-off. The PC gaming world would greatly benefit if the entire industry got a restraining order for Silius, Saleem Grant.
That guy did more harm then Smed ever could, or did.
Couldn't agree more, but I think what did it for most players (even though they bought the game) was the fact that SOE put their name on the product.. No matter if they were packaging manuals or stamping price tags on boxes, coming off of the biggest blunder in the history of MMO's (yes, the legendary NGE "crisis"), you definitely didn't want to see these guys behind any product for a while..
Also, I dont want an Extended version of Vanguard.. No seperate "premium" servers to waste money on, Just one or two solid F2P servers with the usual shop stuff like EQ2X.. Or they could just sell the I.P... I am sure if these F2P companies are spending billions of dollars on games without the makeup and richness of vanguard, they would surely buy this gem for a hefty price which then SOE can funnel the funds into their own projects like EQNext and PlanetsideNext..
SOE ONLY CARES ABOUT THE SUCCESS OF EQ2 and for that to happen/continue Vanguard must fail.
SOE won't sell Vanguard nor the IP itself. I'm not even sure the IP would be worth much since Vanguard wasn't a huge hit or anything. And SOE can always use the IP if the Everquest brand becomes stale and Everquest Next isn't a huge hit.
Chortle!
Seriously, SOW didn't ruin this game. Vangaurd was in trouble long before they got involved. SOE did the smart thing by not putting in good money after bad. Money doesn't fix everything unless your point is to dump all the code and start over.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I hate to say it but, SOE trying anything new with this I.P. would go over as smoothly as if they announced making another Star Wars based game.. It's already sunk for them, best to let another company try and invigorate it somehow.. But I see what you are saying though and it's probably pretty accurate as to their thinking with it..
Ahem do you know how silly that sounds to call the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation to take over a company. You obviously don't understand how our government agencies work. If you want to take a company down you go to the SEC, the FBI is criminal investigations. There is nothing criminal in how they run their business, now from an ethical standpoint that is where the SEC would get involved.
However there is no need to call the FBI to take them over, that is not what the FBI does. The FBI investigates and takes action against criminal individuals and the mafia, now if you have proof they are doing something along the criminal lines then lets see it, otherwise asking the FBI to get involved is like going down to your local sheriff's department and saying I think my neighbor should not be watering their grass.
Come on I was just trying to make a point, the FBI thing was just just for fun....do I need to spell it out more for you ?
EXACTLY.
Vanguard had serious, serious problems well before SOE entered the picture, starting with whatever the hell Sigil did to the Unreal engine when they tweaked it, and with the Gordian knot that is VG's code. Brad McQuaid over-promised and under-delivered with Microsoft, and they finally had enough, and the game was an unholy mess. SOE saved it and has made it playable for people. Without them, this game would never have seen the light of day.
However, SOE bought Sigil for the talent pool that was there, not for Vanguard. They made the game playable so they could see how it would do in the market. It tailed. They created a trial island to try and entice players to join. It didn't work much. They added some content to show that they were making an effort with VG. It made no difference. In the end, they decided to put those developers to better use and put them on other projects while keeping the Vanguard servers up and running for the few players that still want to play the game.
I'm always amused by the conventional wisdom that says that SOE bought VG to protect the EQ games. That shows a total lack of any business understanding at all. They bought VG and Sigil for the developers and for the extra studio space, and to see how the game would do on the market. When it failed, they moved all that purchased talent on to other things.
I keep hearing people say this same thing about Vanguard and I just don't understand where it comes from.
What exactly was Vanguard "rescued" from?
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from early release with proper funding? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a horrible launch? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguard from a painfully slow death? No.
Did SOE rescue Vanguards reputation by putting the SOE logo on the box? No.
I'm not sure what SOE rescued at all. All of those things were going to happen with or without SOE. It isn't like SOE rescued Vanguard from being a complete failure.
The only thing that is noteworthy that SOE has done is "rescue" Vanguard from being purchased by another developer. Looking at how many other failed games are being purchased by game developers who relaunch those games I think it is safe to assume Vanguard could have been in the same situation if it were not for SOE being involved.
Er what?
Vanguard was developed by Sigil. Sigil was dumped by Microsoft because the game was bad. Developers were jumping ship from Sigil because management was bad. Vanguard had no publisher and no one was touching that game. SOE came in and signed on as a publisher but Sigil was the developer. Sigil released the game and no one bought it. Most of the people who did buy it couldn't play it because it was busted. The game launcehd with two classes that were never even finished. There were quest chains that just stopped at level 12. You had a quest and couldn't continue because the game didn't update the quest. That was 100% Sigil. 0% SOE.
Next, SOE purchased the game. So at this point they are both the developer and publisher. They went in, fixed it. Made it run on most machines. Fixed quest chains. Cut out completely broken content. Built a new starter island. Finished content that Sigil never finished in Beta. Built development tools so that customer support could actually do their job. Polished some graphics. Then after all that they gave it to everyone who had a station account. They made it free to play for 2 months for everybody. They made it free to all station players for 6 months. And the result was people didn't play it. The game didn't appeal to people. Since the game didn't draw players, and station pass access people don't even touch it then they started shrinking the dev team. Now its on life support and not one developer in this reality can save this game because its not a game that appeals to a large audience. I have a station pass and I log in for 10 minutes ever few months and I'm only reminded that the game sucks and delete it.
Please show me another company who is willing to buy it out, and make a offer. We head there was one a year or so back. But honestly in the shape vanguard is in my money would be on gamersfirst, after all they just bought FE and it was a flop.
No sigil was failing, they approached soe, not the other way around. They new they had a flop thus soe agreed to buy them out.
Folks so forget the alpha and beta of Vanguard and all that went on. And folks complaining that soe is criminal on how they advertise the game. I would point at eq1, and eq2 DO you see any ADVERTISING???? NO, and those are the mainstay games that everybody keeps saying the reason why soe bought them out. SOE has never advertised any of their games much except DCUO and what a flop that is. Now and then I see a banner add for eq2 extended but really the only advertising that SOE gets is word of mouth.
Honestly do you really thing with all the bad publicity that vanguard has that anybody will come play? Take a look at the free 45 days that all of us got because of the hack. Do you see the servers packed, NO!.
Honestly I want to see a game company try to buy them out, is it going to happen, I very much don't think so. No game company going to touch this game.
We will never know who might have gotten involved with Vanguard, because SOE was the first person Brad approached. Sigil and SOE signed a deal before Brad ever went looking elsewhere. Brad said as much in his blogs.
Tell me what company in their right mind would want to be involved in a project that has 3 companies already involved? SOE/Sigil publishing partnership and Microsoft still being owed a balloon payment?
SOE has spent the last four years throwing table scraps at Vanguard and the summary of their efforts is that they almost got the game into decent enough shape to be launch ready. Most of that was finishing projects Sigil had already started. Then they undid all the positive with the horrible 51-55 half assed content. That is the summary of four years of salvation?
Again I have to ask what exactly was Vanguard rescued from, because I am not seeing it.
Was it rescued from a terrible release? no.
Was it rescued from becoming a failure? no.
How can I possibly name companies who might buy Vanguard? I was pointing out that there have been a lot of various companies buying up underperforming/failed games, putting in some development and rereleasing them. So it is a very good possibility that someone might do the same for Vanguard. There have been rumors of several offers being made to SOE for Vanguard.
It sounds like you started off by addressing my points in the first paragraph, but then drifted off into addressing things to a general population in the following paragraphs. I'm not going to respond to all those points, because I don't think they apply to me and I actually agree with what you said. Aside from SOE not advertising. There was a time when they did, but advertising will only get people to try a game, not stick around.
This is the saddest part of the whole situation. Vanguard, even with all of its problems is still better than most games on the market. With proper support it could still draw in a decent number of players, because it fills a niche that isn't being addressed.
It's a four year old game that crashed and burned on its launch and which has been abandoned by its developers except as a free paycheck from the small number of players who still choose to log in.
SOE just gave people 45 free days of play for all their games. VG hasn't shown any marked population improvement, and people this site and elsewhere knew about that free game time. Exactly how is VG supposed to draw a decent number of players if it can't even gain the interest of its former playerbase?
I agree with what you are saying, but 45 free days to a dead unsupported game that could close down any day isn't exactly going to draw in crowds. Not to mention the 45 days arn't some promotion but some sort of apology for the security breach.
Players need to feel confident that a developer is going to support a game. Otherwise there isn't much point in investing time into that game when there are so many other choices. Regardless of the untapped potential in a game.
It is funny how the conversation starts about saving the game but always turn into a history lesson on whose fault it was .What difference does it matter, the game isn't getting love from anyone. Sheesh...
Rift: Storm Legion Raid Progression Tracker
Hey, since Gamersfirst, I think that's who it is, is buying everything of late and converting them to FTP, SOE should sell VG to them. I would be all over that. Imagine owning APB, FE and VG? And revitalizing them with FTP and new devs. WoW.
Well to be completely fair, this thread didn't start out as the typical save vanguard rah rah rah post and it most certainly has the overtone of SOE not being responsible enough to deserve having the game.
Arrested development for sure. Or maybe suspended animation?
Actually *pushes his specs back up his nose* I saw quite a few people coming back to Vanguard in the wake of the hacker fiasco and the guild I belong to is always busy. It's a marked improvement on how it felt when I first picked the game off Steam a year ago; I tried it for a few days and left because it was so bloody barren. But with people it's actually a hell of a good PvE game, I may cautiously say one of the best. I just got off a group at level 16 in Khegor's End and we had one absolute stonker of a boss battle at the end of the dungeon crawl - it felt proper epic.
And it's good because the original content is there, but also because SoE made it playable. So there, I'm giving credit where it's due.
But now I think it's time to open up Vanguard with a, (carefully thought out), F2P model.
I'm not shaking the hand of hyperbole when I say if this game received a notable population spike with a F2P model it could be golden. Nevermind the worries about a degredation of the quality of player and all that, that's what ignore lists are for. Just getting bodies in would really resurrect this game - it's stable enough and got the content to go places.