Beta Doredom (semi-long)

Deadaye13

I posted this on the Guild-Hall but I didn't get a lot of posts so I'll put it here:
Do you remember the first time you visited Disneyland (or the equivalent) and, as you munched on your $12 popcorn and slurped your $10 Coke, it suddenly struck you: "I'm bored" "What? Bored at Disneyland?" Yep, it can even happen at the Happiest Place on Earth.

I had my Disneyland moment during GW's most recent Beta Event. I was farming loot so I could purchase skills for my level 20 toon. As I killed my fiftieth fire imp, I thought, "There's got to be something better to do." But there wasn't.

While I appreciated GW allowing us to roll level 20 toons at the get-go, we were still required to "grind" for loot so we could equip the toons with appropriate gear and skills. And the grinding got old fast.

But, wait, I'm not here for the PvE as much as the PvP. So a little grinding is a fair trade-off for some dynamic PvP, right? Well, that might otherwise be true but the current PvP is essentially the same PvP we were playing since the second WPE. This is not to say we didn't have some fun battles at the tombs (sorry, GW, but the trebuchet couldn't make the tired GvG map feel new again). But we knew the basic map setup the moment the cut scene started playing and planned our strategy accordingly.

By Sunday, I barely logged on and many of my guildmates didn't bother to play at all.

The irony (and there must be irony to make a story interesting) is that, before Friday, I was a rabid GW fanatic who couldn't wait to ignore his priorities as I glued myself to the computer for 40+ hours. I trolled the boards most every day, I sent missives and atta-boys to GW's staff telling them they were on the brink of something massive, I played with team builds and attribute calculators, and I counted the days until the next event. I wrote the best, overlooked Battle Report (check it out in the fan fiction section, though it's not really fiction). Hell, most evenings, I tried logging on just to see if I could. I even have a screenshot of my guild before a GvG battle as my computer background.

So what happened?

Maybe it was GW's decision to provide beta "weekends" which only disclosed a portion of the entire game. I've been lucky enough to beta many of the current MMORPG offerings (including WoW, CoH and SWG). Though I found all of these games to be grinding timesinks, I continued to play regularly because of the chance for new content - something new and cool that would change the game in some way.

The game provided in beta weekends, despite some graphical changes like the new UI, is effectively static. Sure, I can (and did) roll new toons to experiment with skills and combinations but each toon was required to undergo the same missions before she (we're on all girl guild) could proceed to the PvP. And every time I rolled a new toon, I had to re-do old missions if I wanted to play with a guild member whose toon had opened a new point along the world map ("Geez, I'd love to meet you at Farmer's Market but this Necro has to start in Lion's Arch. Do you mind waiting, or worse, running the mission with me, so I can play with you?.")

Maybe GW just isn't getting the messages which seem to populate the fan boards. After the last beta weekend, there were a number of thoughful discussions concerning the need for more PvP maps and a more dynamic PvP structure. Given the strong feelings on this subject, I anticipated a significant PvP push during this go-around. If it was there, I missed it.

I also expected more sensitivity to the issue of group size. The game is called "Guild Wars" after all - shouldn't there be some design directed to the notion that people will form guilds and play accordingly? When we first fired up the computers Friday evening, we had 8 guild members who wanted to play together. Since we needed to farm, we were forced to split up into two groups and bring henchmen. And because all missions are instanced, our groups couldn't even occupy the same environment. This diminishes, not enhances, the feeling of community and camraderie which often provide the impetus for players to continue with a game far after the "coolness" has expired.

It's been said before but GW just doesn't seem to hear: the 6 player limit for missions and the 8 player requirement for PvP is too confining. Why can't there be more scalability? For example, why must the 4-person PvP be random? There were plenty of times 4 guildies wanted to PvP. Rather than playing as a team, they were forced to huddle in the Tombs hoping to snag additional players (or, more accurately, strangers who they'd likely never see again). Perhaps, GW feels that more interaction is necessary to foster a community. But for those of us migrating from another game, give us the option of playing with our friends without requiring us to plead with strangers to join us.

And why must each new toon replay old missions? I can only travel to the Ascalon settlement trainer so many times before I want to pummel my computer with day-old pizza.

Should a game lose its coolness factor after a couple of weekends of play? Not if it wants to compete with the myriad of stand alone and MMO games currently available.

My guildmates and I discussed our waning enjoyment during an interminable wait for additional team members in the tombs. Sadly, no one was enthused about the game's launch. This was such a remarkable turn around from a month ago when we were internally begging for an immediately launch.

The ultimate irony is that this game does so many things well. The reasonable level cap, the dual professions, the emphasis on strategy, the minimal timesinks, the strong graphics etc. put many of the other MMO's to shame. But these positives can't outweigh a lack of content.

In the end, I have this one suggestion to GW. If there's more out there, let us know. In other words, launch and give us the whole enchilada or make the whole game playable in beta. But don't, don't, continue with these tiny beta events: they don't leave us hungering for more, they just leave us hungry.

EDIT:  Had some technical problems w/ sig.

cooldevo

I agree with you on a few points, and as usual differ on a few others.

I agree with you that there is a pattern of repetition going on.  By the third time of having to start over, it gets a little tedious.  This is however more or less a beta test.  They are slowly introducing new aspects of the game into the system.  You need to take your time implementing new features to see how it will affect the game as a whole.  Whether they are doing this or not, I don't know.  Some games rush out patches and hotfixes, that ruin the game because it was so hastily rushed out that they didn't take into account how it would affect the other millions of lines of code.  I do find it does get tedious at times too having to restart and run the same quests again and again at times too.  But then other times I enjoy it, when you get to meet new people to group with.

The only thing that gives me solace when I get into those kind of moods is the fact that at least they are in fact actually implementing new features.  They may not have been what I was hoping for, but I know one day I will need to utilize that feature and it will be there, having been thoughtfully implemented.
I also agree with you that the group limit for all grouping/waring has to be increased.  I have heard rumors that they will be, and hope that it is true.
One thing I am unsure about, is this.  Suppose you had a toon that was able to PvP.  If you make another toon, wouldn't it make sense that they would have to start in the beginning.  On release date, you won't be able to start at any level other than level one.  What other option would there be, or could work?
The only thing I could see working would be to provide more open ended missions to get you up to the required abilities to PvP.  Again, I don't know if they are planning this, but it would be nice to have a large selection of mission, that don't necessarily progress the story line, but do provide some xp.  Such as exploring missions.  They would help you to reveal the map, provide xp from combat and allow you to travel faster.
My only guess as to why they don't seem to be listening is this:  Maybe they are, and are working on ways to implement what is suggested.  Remember, you are dealing with a program that has millions of lines of code, and is incredibly complex.  It's not just a matter of changing a line or two.  Every change has to be weighed, as you could easily ruin many aspects of a game by a ill-advised modification.  They could even still be working on the full PvP system, and it could be implemented in one of the releases before it goes gold in April (at least that is when EB Games says it's out).  I got the impression that the questing system was their big push in this Beta.  Maybe future beta will focus on PvP upgrades.
I do agree with you on the fact that I'd like to see the whole product.  I'm just holding out, that if everything is done slowly and properly, the finished product will be well worth the wait.  It takes a lot of time and patience to turn coal into a diamond, but well worth the wait.

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pingo

It is always good to hear constructive critisim.

I thank you sir, for your long post.

And I agree with some of the things you say. I only have played the Halloween event, but must agree with you that this does things right that none has done before.

The lack of retarded time sinks like endless level grinding, which some people consider as an achivement, when frankly it's just a bloddy waste of time watching numbers go up... lvl 50... lvl 51.. lvl 52.. YES ACHIVEMENT WOHO!

or the fact that pvp in all the other MMOs rewards the players who farmed the most instead of actually rewarding player skill!

I hate the extreme gear depedant aspects in many MMORPGs!

Personally im concerned about the pvp structure of GW!

I wanna try to be good. To be fair. While I understand that this game was aimed towards group pvp, I have a bad feeling that unlike teamgames like UT and CS(I don't like either of them, but just using them as common and popular examples) which is group essential, but also being able to solo.

A pick up group fighting an avid guild... almost nomatter how good you are individualy its impossible to fight a good group.

That is the flaw in pick up on the go groups vs the avid guilds.

And if you as an individual dont like guilds, but like pvp.. it is very hard to prove your worth.

Im not really saying that guild wars should be aimed mainly for solo pvp, but I am a bit distrubed about the lack of even a friendly duel mode!

Guild Wars hopefully will have more varried content in the form of many types of pvp enviorments.

I don't think that it is gonna cut it to have the same pvp arenas and structures all over the place, just in different settings.

3vs3vs5 CTF could be exciting.... 2 undermanded teams could join forces against the biggest and become larger, or they could destroy each other..

there is allot of room for modes, maps and structures from FPS game modes like king of the hill(capturing a stronghold for a certain about of time), assault, conquest and so on...

If it really is true that we only have seen a little of the content, then why are we not testing it?

It does not make sense to make a hugh deal out of a product and only let them test a little bit of it.

If you wanna test a car you dont get a wheel and a hand break, and base your judgement on that before you buy it, right?

You wanna try the hole thing! At least take it for a test drive!

cooldevo

---

Originally posted by pingo

If it really is true that we only have seen a little of the content, then why are we not testing it?
It does not make sense to make a hugh deal out of a product and only let them test a little bit of it.
If you wanna test a car you dont get a wheel and a hand break, and base your judgement on that before you buy it, right?
You wanna try the hole thing! At least take it for a test drive!

---

Of course you want to try the whole thing.  I do too.  I think everyone into GW wants to try it all.  But do you want to try a very sloppily thrown together project that everyone says "The game sucks, this doesn't work, that doesn't work, PvP is absolutely nerfed, GvG is unplayable, etc etc."  Or would you rather know there is more out there, and that there is thoughtful time and consideration being put into each part.

When  a car company builds a new car model, they don't slap it together and start selling it.  They have so ensure each component meets and/or exceeds their standards.  Then they start assembling it, ensuring everything works with each other along the way.  Then once the prototype is done, they run tests on it, to make sure it all works perfectly.  No public consumer sees that process, because it is done behind the scenes.  They are already desinging and preparing to test cars for their 2006 models as we speak.  You don't want a car that was just slapped together, and the transmission sometimes works, the starter doesn't fit the key they gave you, and the engine has no oil in it.  Things have to progress in a certain logical order for it to come together as a great project in the end.

GW is the same way.  I've played countless poorly tested games.  During beta they have the entire game out.  So certain aspects of the game aren't tested, as the beta testers just want to play the game.  Then on release day, they all of a sudden realize that a certain aspect of the game doesn't work even remotely close to what they intended.  So the prop a fix.  Then a few days later, they realize that their hastily propped fix cause all sorts of other problems in the millions of lines of code that they couldn't forsee in the rush to fix the first problem.  Well now they have to prop more fixes quickly to fill the new problems.  And the process follows a vicious cycle.  When you are dealing with millions of lines of code and megabytes (if not gigabytes) of memory, it is easy to make a modification that will have sever ramifications that you can't even see.  You have to properly test and debug coding changes.  Even something as simple as adding +1 damage to an attack spell will make not just players stronger, but NPC's and monsters.

I hope this is the process they are following.  It is the only way to successfully implement something as complex as a game like this.  But only time will tell.

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*EDIT* Just posted on GW website their top ten questions from the BWE Fansites.  Read them here.

Elzawyre

The predictability of both pvp and pve is what seems kinda boring to me in Guild Wars

heres an idea I posted on another site

Sorry if something like this has been suggested already or is already in-game and I dont know of it

Explorable areas that are either pvp + or pvp -

Indicators of mobs/other teams on the mini-map will be disabled for pvp + areas...team members will be visible

pvp + areas would have 2 min, 8 max, 8 player teams in the same instance, spawned randomly over a large map. (the number of teams could/should be random)

That map would have a central portal to another area full of epic type mobs and massive loot...this area is only accesible to the last team standing from the 1st area

Fill the area with mobs to battle along the way to the central portal they should be ks-able and lootable (need to create some more tension here)

Scenario:

Team A is celebrating their defeat of several lightning drakes (or whatever)

Team B creeps along a path avoiding all mobs as best they can....their only mission is to pvp and gain entrance to the epic portal

Team B comes over a rise in the terain and finds Team A celebrating their victory....the ranger from Team B sends an arrow into the monk of Team A and iniates combat with Team A

Meanwhile Team C watches over both teams from a cliff top location...out of view of the others

The moment the arrow/spell..whatever strikes a member of Team A a battle instance is spawned...an arena type area with the same type of terrain as the area in which the combat was iniated (coastal beach,snowfield whatever) If multiple teams are tagging any member of Team A 1st tag gets the battle instance with Team A

Only Teams A and B are in this instanced area and only the winner will be able to continue on to the epic portal

A battle marker of some type should be placed at the spot the teams are battling at (signpost/gravestone)
so that other teams in the area know that a battle is taking place at this location The winners will respawn at this location

As the battle rages on Team C positions themselves at the battle marker awaiting the victors emergance from the battle instance

Team A emerges needing some heals,hex debuffs,and energy Team B goes home so to speak (maybe with a DP 15% that would need to be worked off, either through pvp or pve) this would give defeat some sort of meaning

BAM

Team C tags Team A and another battle rages on

This would continue on until only 1 team remains in the inital pvp + area and that team now gains access to the epic portal a message or cutscene would indicate this

Of course the winners would also gain fame and ladder points for guild teams(this makes that ladder a bit more interesting now doesn't it ? )

What a rush it would be to "hunt" other teams and to not know what to expect when emerging from a battle instance

IMO this would promote the "MMO" feeling that many feel Guild Wars lacks

Guild Wars is the only game in many years that has absolutly captivated me, and for me this idea if implimented would put it....over the top

Thanks

aka Mind Bender

the link

http://vnboards.ign.com/Guild_Wars_General_Board/b22740/81451729/?13

cooldevo

That would definitely be interesting....

The idea does seem intriguing, and would definitely be great for PvP.  Would have to be careful in implementing something like that, as not all players want PvP all the time.  I don't PvP very much (at least not initially), I like to follow the games storyline for a while, as I find GW plot pretty cool, and haven't gotten very far in it yet.  And you could even run quests in there, but very carefully.  The NPC giving out the quest would have to specify that it may result in an attack if you go into a pvp+ area.  But the storyline shouldn't force you to go into those areas.  A lot of times I end up taking henchmen along on the quests (as I sometimes play on off-hours), and would be slaughtered pretty easily by other players.

But definitely something to think about though....

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cooldevo

I was reading around on the GW website, and came across a link that explains what they are doing with the Beta Weekend Events.

Click here for the link (it's on the bottom of the page)

Beta Weekend Events:

We feel that the optimum balance in the use of development resources and in increasing the preorder package game exposure will be derived by having Beta Events on a regular basis. Scheduled for the first weekend of each month, each 48-hour period will focus on a new experience in the game such as new regions, new missions, new monsters, and new game mechanics. The preorder package will provide an exclusive Beta Event access code as well as a pass code for one friend to participate in one of the events. This combination allows us to minimize development interruption, to reduce support costs and yet still provide additional game exposure for passionate fans who want to experience the evolution of the game in the beta development process.

As it states in the above paragraph, in the BWEs they will be concentrating on certain aspects of the game.  IMHO, that is why the events can get a bit boring, as there is only a limited range of content to play.  Which is why it is key to work hard to find and report the bugs.  Only by doing that, will the best possible product be released, with minimal bugs and glitches resulting in maximum uptime.  Hopefully this helps explain a bit of the boredom away.... At least it did for me.

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