Thanks for the input folks. I have ordered what I needed from the suggestions a few of you folks made. Total price was no where near the 10k. Now back to kicking salt in my wounds if you want to.
Once you've got more memory than you have any plausible use for, adding even more doesn't help.
remember when 2mb was a lot of memory?
Remember when RAM requirements grew by a factor of 12 during the operational life of a single computer?
Yeah, neither do I.
4GB is enough for almost any task in this day and age, so home computers will almost certainly not make use of twelve times that much before he replaces the machine, especially with consoles holding back system requirements on games.
Even if somehow RAM requirements did grow that fast (which would be entirely unprecedented), it would be accompanied by a sharp reduction in RAM prices. Software companies wouldn't dare require that much unless it was within the price-range of the average consumer. So even if this astronomically unlikely event in computer progression that you're implying happened, it would be far wiser for the OP to buy his RAM then, for say $50, instead of paying $500-$700 right now.
Make sure the screen is fully calibratable.hdmi. I.yes calibrating everything to work well and in HD or even better 3D will be challege.everybody say oh mine does it but the reality s this use a good calibrating software it will mention what you will need setting wise the screen doesnt have it move on to another that will do it.you will search a lot i bet before you find the item you need.sound wise use a good pair of wireless headphone(if you dont wifi.
4GB is enough for almost any task in this day and age, so home computers will almost certainly not make use of twelve times that much before he replaces the machine, especially with consoles holding back system requirements on games.
That's true, and I agree with you. But it's not that hard to justify getting 8 GB of memory just in case, when you can get it for $55:
More than 8 GB is awfully hard to justify for gaming purposes, though, even on an infinite budget.
Some servers, on the other hand, can justify a lot more than 48 GB of memory. AMD's case for going with four memory channels in Opteron Magny-Cours was so that you can have 8 memory modules per socket, and get 128 GB in a 4P server while using cheaper 4 GB modules rather than far more expensive (per GB) 8 GB modules.
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To the original poster: you're not even going to tell us what you got?
http://www.youtube.com/user/Trubyd44 If you got the cash, get ahold of that guy to build your computer for you. He takes things beyond extreme with his builds and you can be almost guaranteed more then your money's worth.
I already have the screens I want, the drives and the SSD. Thanks again for all you input folks. Laugh if you wish, but your thoughts did help me make my choices. I am going with water cooling on this also.
And that's in addition to being cheaper by $700. Some people said to get the $1000 processor because it's the most expensive and they didn't know any better.
You should also understand that even if you do keep the processor and motherboard that you picked, the processor has a triple channel memory controller, so you need to get either 3 memory modules or 6, not 4. If you leave a memory channel vacant, then you give up one of the few advantages of paying the extra $700 for the older processor.
The video cards require a liquid cooling loop. I don't know how much heat a typical liquid cooling loop can dissipate, but for 750 W from video cards alone, whatever you pick had better have a huge radiator. The dinky little things like the $100 processor water cooling loops would be woefully inadequate for a pair of Radeon HD 6990s.
Hmmm it is not to late to change the order Quizzical. What do you suggest again on the processor? And do you think I should do just one of the 6990's? I am going to stop the order now. I just placed it as I was posting the results. I just looked at the CPU you suggested, so go with the sandy bridge? Also tell me what memory you suggest?
Yes, I'd cancel the order. The memory you picked is good if you want 16 GB. Personally, I'd say just get 8 GB and call that enough, and if you decide you need more later, then you can add more later.
The Core i7 2600K is the best processor for gaming purposes. It clocks higher than the Core i7 990X (meaning both higher turbo boost at stock settings and can overclock further), and also has better IPC, so even at the same clock speed, it's about 10% faster per core. The advantage of the Core i7 990X is that it has six cores rather than four, but that only helps with programs that scale well to more than four cores--unlike games. Hyperthreading will make the processors competitive with each other in programs that scale perfectly to five or six cores, but if you can push 12 threads with perfect scaling, the Core i7 990X will win. The real point of the 990X is that it was available nine months earlier, and that the die is used for servers and has a number of server features on board that the 2600K lacks.
If you change the processor, you'll need to change the motherboard, too. This will let you have x16/x16 PCI Express bandwidth for CrossFire or SLI.
Getting two Radeon HD 6990s is ridiculous unless you're going for an Eyefinity setup. If you're running five 1920x1080 monitors or three 2560x1600 monitors, then yeah, you want two 6990s. If you're running three 1920x1080 monitors or one monitor (of any resolution), then I'd just get two Radeon HD 6970s and call it good enough. It's a lot easier to cool a single GPU card that puts out 200-250 W under heavy loads than a dual GPU card with 375 W in the same form factor.
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What SSD did you get, and what case? Also, what monitor(s)? You'll probably also want some aftermarket heatsink for the processor, whether you plan on overclocking it or not.
Ok I redid it one last time Quizzical. I went with the Sandy Bridge as you suggested. I changed the memory and dropped down to just one video card for now.
Sandy Bridge (Core i7 2600K) has a two channel memory controller, so you want either two modules or four, not three. And there's no advantage whatsoever to having memory clocked above 1600 MHz, so getting memory clocked at 2000 MHz is a waste of money. Even the advantage of 1600 MHz over 1333 MHz is awfully small, though there you can say, it's only an extra $10, so why not?
Do note that Sandy Bridge requires an LGA 1155 motherboard, not LGA 1366, as you originally picked. So you'll have to change the motherboard, too.
Getting one Radeon HD 6990 makes no sense at all. It's far better to get two Radeon HD 6970s. That will get you better performance for cheaper, and also be much easier to cool. The 6990 uses the same Cayman die as the 6970, but has two of them, and then has to underclock them to keep power consumption in check.
I am using the case I already had from a previous build from about 3 months ago. It is a Smilodon Raidmax gaming case, plenty of room and plenty of fans I have added extra fans too.
I went with your suggestion on the CPU and Motherboard. Here is the SSD I have.
You should be aware that the SSD is more than two years old, and considerably slower than more modern ones. It still performs like a good SSD, and it's questionable whether you'd see any practical difference between that and a much faster SSD. In situations where hard drives are slow, the difference between 20x as fast as a hard drive and 1x as fast as a hard drive is a huge deal, but the difference between 20x and 50x isn't such a huge deal.
The OCZ Vertex isn't one of the genuinely bad SSDs, and it is cheaper in $/GB than a newer one like this:
Whether you should switch or go ahead and get it is debatable. On an infinite budget, I'd get the newer, faster one, but I don't think you actually want to spend $10k.
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The case is, well, not what you want for a high end gaming system. Some high end video cards might not physically fit. You should pull out a ruler and measure to see how much space you have, as high end video cards can be 12" long at times. If they fit and you only use external exhaust video cards, then the case will be fine. Putting a pair of 6990s in that would probably fry something, as the case interior would get really, really hot. Or you might be able to find out on Raidmax's site. I don't know if Raidmax cases are any good or not, but their power supplies are awful.
Monitors, monitors, monitors. What monitors do you have? How many, and what resolution? And are you planning on spreading a game window across three or five, or only one? Because it doesn't take that much graphical power to only use one monitor. Once you have the monitors chosen, that dictates how much video card power you need, and that, in turn, dictates the case and power supply you need to power and cool them. Trying to pick the other things without knowing what you're doing for monitors is a bad idea.
An Antec Twelve Hundred is a very nice gaming case. It's not really appropriate to a pair of Radeon HD 6990s because, even though it has enough airflow, it doesn't orient it the way the 6990s want. The case would be able to handle any pair (or trio) of air-cooled single GPU cards that ever has been made or will be made in the foreseeable future.
I should also warn you that rumors say that AMD's next generation of video cards could launch as soon as September, and they're probably starting with the high end. TSMC is promising 45% better performance in the same thermal envelope as a result of the die shrink. Now, "could launch as soon as September" largely rules out July and August, but doesn't necessarily mean it will happen in September. It really means, as soon as TSMC's process node is ready, which it might be in September, or might not happen until next year. Whether you want to wait or not is up to you. For a 2-way CrossFire setup, I personally wouldn't, but I'd hesitate to grab two 6990s now.
For a pair of Radeon HD 6970s, you don't need a 1200 W power supply. You can get something just as good of a lower wattage for much cheaper, like this:
Those three are actually all the same thing, and made by Super Flower. Or if you like rebates, then this isn't as good as what I've linked above, but it's still very good:
Only HDMI and D-Sub on the monitors? Strange. You can spread a game window across all of the monitors using eyefinity, though with four, it looks bad with a monitor bezel in the middle of your character. Three works a lot better, though you could still hook up the fourth monitor to show a web browser or spreadsheet or whatever while you play a game on the other three. I think that in order to use eyefinity, all of the monitors have to be connected to the same card, but I'm not certain of that.
The Cayman GPU chip can power up to six monitors, but at most two of those can be HDMI, DVI, or D-Sub. Most 6970s come with two DVI ports, one HDMI, and two Mini DisplayPort. You can use the HDMI port, and a cheap DVI to HDMI adapter like this:
The trouble is that you need active adapters to have the power to convert the signal, not just something that will make the pins line up. You can use the VGA/D-Sub cables for the other two monitors. It looks like this one is the only adapter that will work at 1920x1080:
Dude, I've got a Mac Pro with three 27" cinema displays and it didn't cost me that much. On the PC side, you should be able to get top of the line for 1/3 of your 10K.
"If I'm not enjoying the game from the beginning then why do I need to torture myself to get to "end cap" to see the "real" game? WTF? Why can't the WHOLE GAME BE THE REAL GAME" - TheExplorer
I have to agree with quiz on this one. 4 is a bad bad number. Span the game through 3 and idk...use the 4th one when not gaming or as a desktop part outside the game. Its quite annoying to have a slightly large line on the center of view.
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
It's not that having four monitors is bad; it's that spreading an Eyefinity display across all four is bad. I've got two monitors, but don't spread the game window across both. The other usually has a spreadsheet to keep track of what I'm doing in the game, or a web browser, which could be looking up stuff on a wiki, posting on a forum like this one, or even reading about politics during breaks in the game.
Someday I want to get an eyefinity setup with three monitors in eyefinity, and then two other, smaller monitors outside of the eyefinity array, to display other things. I'm not satisfied that either video cards or monitors are quite to where I want them to be for that, though.
Originally posted by Quizzical The video cards require a liquid cooling loop. I don't know how much heat a typical liquid cooling loop can dissipate, but for 750 W from video cards alone, whatever you pick had better have a huge radiator. The dinky little things like the $100 processor water cooling loops would be woefully inadequate for a pair of Radeon HD 6990s.
Keeping in mind that the hotter liquid cooling systems run, the more efficient they get. And that any radiator's performance is going to be greatly influenced by the temperature and the amount of air you can push through it.
A single 120mm radiator is good for about 400W of cooling. Dual fan models (2x120) go up to around 700W, triple fan models (3x120) up to around 1kW of heat. If you are really worried about it, it's very easy to modify a heater core from a car (auto parts stores carry then for about $40), and they are usually about 10" square (equates to roughly 4.5x120mm in terms of surface area) and can dissipate roughly 1.5-1.7kW worth of heat.
Comments
Multi-monitor mount http://9xmedia.com/new/products/xtops.php
Remember when RAM requirements grew by a factor of 12 during the operational life of a single computer?
Yeah, neither do I.
4GB is enough for almost any task in this day and age, so home computers will almost certainly not make use of twelve times that much before he replaces the machine, especially with consoles holding back system requirements on games.
Even if somehow RAM requirements did grow that fast (which would be entirely unprecedented), it would be accompanied by a sharp reduction in RAM prices. Software companies wouldn't dare require that much unless it was within the price-range of the average consumer. So even if this astronomically unlikely event in computer progression that you're implying happened, it would be far wiser for the OP to buy his RAM then, for say $50, instead of paying $500-$700 right now.
I.yes calibrating everything to work well and in HD or even better 3D will be challege.everybody say oh mine does it but the reality s this use a good calibrating software it will mention what you will need setting wise the screen doesnt have it move on to another that will do it.you will search a lot i bet before you find the item you need.sound wise use a good pair of wireless headphone(if you dont wifi.
That's true, and I agree with you. But it's not that hard to justify getting 8 GB of memory just in case, when you can get it for $55:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231311
More than 8 GB is awfully hard to justify for gaming purposes, though, even on an infinite budget.
Some servers, on the other hand, can justify a lot more than 48 GB of memory. AMD's case for going with four memory channels in Opteron Magny-Cours was so that you can have 8 memory modules per socket, and get 128 GB in a 4P server while using cheaper 4 GB modules rather than far more expensive (per GB) 8 GB modules.
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To the original poster: you're not even going to tell us what you got?
http://www.youtube.com/user/Trubyd44 If you got the cash, get ahold of that guy to build your computer for you. He takes things beyond extreme with his builds and you can be almost guaranteed more then your money's worth.
He got a good laugh out of this thread I bet.
I canceled the order and re-ordered this instead. This was some of my ideas and some of the ideas of the posters here.
Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128471 420.00
CPU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115079 999.99
Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131438 899.99 x 2 Back Ordered
Memory
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231315&cm_sp=Cat_Memory-_-Daily_Deal-_-20-231-315 119.99
Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139014 279.99
---------
3619.95
I already have the screens I want, the drives and the SSD. Thanks again for all you input folks. Laugh if you wish, but your thoughts did help me make my choices. I am going with water cooling on this also.
You should realize that this processor is faster for gaming purposes than the one you picked:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115070
And that's in addition to being cheaper by $700. Some people said to get the $1000 processor because it's the most expensive and they didn't know any better.
You should also understand that even if you do keep the processor and motherboard that you picked, the processor has a triple channel memory controller, so you need to get either 3 memory modules or 6, not 4. If you leave a memory channel vacant, then you give up one of the few advantages of paying the extra $700 for the older processor.
The video cards require a liquid cooling loop. I don't know how much heat a typical liquid cooling loop can dissipate, but for 750 W from video cards alone, whatever you pick had better have a huge radiator. The dinky little things like the $100 processor water cooling loops would be woefully inadequate for a pair of Radeon HD 6990s.
Hmmm it is not to late to change the order Quizzical. What do you suggest again on the processor? And do you think I should do just one of the 6990's? I am going to stop the order now. I just placed it as I was posting the results. I just looked at the CPU you suggested, so go with the sandy bridge? Also tell me what memory you suggest?
Yes, I'd cancel the order. The memory you picked is good if you want 16 GB. Personally, I'd say just get 8 GB and call that enough, and if you decide you need more later, then you can add more later.
The Core i7 2600K is the best processor for gaming purposes. It clocks higher than the Core i7 990X (meaning both higher turbo boost at stock settings and can overclock further), and also has better IPC, so even at the same clock speed, it's about 10% faster per core. The advantage of the Core i7 990X is that it has six cores rather than four, but that only helps with programs that scale well to more than four cores--unlike games. Hyperthreading will make the processors competitive with each other in programs that scale perfectly to five or six cores, but if you can push 12 threads with perfect scaling, the Core i7 990X will win. The real point of the 990X is that it was available nine months earlier, and that the die is used for servers and has a number of server features on board that the 2600K lacks.
If you change the processor, you'll need to change the motherboard, too. This will let you have x16/x16 PCI Express bandwidth for CrossFire or SLI.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131714
Getting two Radeon HD 6990s is ridiculous unless you're going for an Eyefinity setup. If you're running five 1920x1080 monitors or three 2560x1600 monitors, then yeah, you want two 6990s. If you're running three 1920x1080 monitors or one monitor (of any resolution), then I'd just get two Radeon HD 6970s and call it good enough. It's a lot easier to cool a single GPU card that puts out 200-250 W under heavy loads than a dual GPU card with 375 W in the same form factor.
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What SSD did you get, and what case? Also, what monitor(s)? You'll probably also want some aftermarket heatsink for the processor, whether you plan on overclocking it or not.
Ok I redid it one last time Quizzical. I went with the Sandy Bridge as you suggested. I changed the memory and dropped down to just one video card for now.
The memory is this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145329
259.99
Thanks for the help again. That saved me almost 2 grand right there,
Sandy Bridge (Core i7 2600K) has a two channel memory controller, so you want either two modules or four, not three. And there's no advantage whatsoever to having memory clocked above 1600 MHz, so getting memory clocked at 2000 MHz is a waste of money. Even the advantage of 1600 MHz over 1333 MHz is awfully small, though there you can say, it's only an extra $10, so why not?
Do note that Sandy Bridge requires an LGA 1155 motherboard, not LGA 1366, as you originally picked. So you'll have to change the motherboard, too.
Getting one Radeon HD 6990 makes no sense at all. It's far better to get two Radeon HD 6970s. That will get you better performance for cheaper, and also be much easier to cool. The 6990 uses the same Cayman die as the 6970, but has two of them, and then has to underclock them to keep power consumption in check.
I am using the case I already had from a previous build from about 3 months ago. It is a Smilodon Raidmax gaming case, plenty of room and plenty of fans I have added extra fans too.
I went with your suggestion on the CPU and Motherboard. Here is the SSD I have.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227396
Here is the memory I had picked earlier:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231315&cm_sp=Cat_Memory-_-Daily_Deal-_-20-231-315
I am pretty sure thats it unless you think I need to buy a case too. I really think the case is fine though.
I have not placed the order yet. So go with 4 memory modules and drop down to 6970's? Or stick with the 6990's?
You should be aware that the SSD is more than two years old, and considerably slower than more modern ones. It still performs like a good SSD, and it's questionable whether you'd see any practical difference between that and a much faster SSD. In situations where hard drives are slow, the difference between 20x as fast as a hard drive and 1x as fast as a hard drive is a huge deal, but the difference between 20x and 50x isn't such a huge deal.
The OCZ Vertex isn't one of the genuinely bad SSDs, and it is cheaper in $/GB than a newer one like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148443
Whether you should switch or go ahead and get it is debatable. On an infinite budget, I'd get the newer, faster one, but I don't think you actually want to spend $10k.
-----
The case is, well, not what you want for a high end gaming system. Some high end video cards might not physically fit. You should pull out a ruler and measure to see how much space you have, as high end video cards can be 12" long at times. If they fit and you only use external exhaust video cards, then the case will be fine. Putting a pair of 6990s in that would probably fry something, as the case interior would get really, really hot. Or you might be able to find out on Raidmax's site. I don't know if Raidmax cases are any good or not, but their power supplies are awful.
That depends. How many monitors are you going to spread a game window across, and what resolution?
Ok I am going to add that SSD to the order. How about this case here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129100
If not suggest one then I am going to get the ball rolling.
Thanks again.
4 - 27 inch monitors for now at 1920-1080 is all I have room for right now so I guess the 6970's is the best bet
Monitors, monitors, monitors. What monitors do you have? How many, and what resolution? And are you planning on spreading a game window across three or five, or only one? Because it doesn't take that much graphical power to only use one monitor. Once you have the monitors chosen, that dictates how much video card power you need, and that, in turn, dictates the case and power supply you need to power and cool them. Trying to pick the other things without knowing what you're doing for monitors is a bad idea.
An Antec Twelve Hundred is a very nice gaming case. It's not really appropriate to a pair of Radeon HD 6990s because, even though it has enough airflow, it doesn't orient it the way the 6990s want. The case would be able to handle any pair (or trio) of air-cooled single GPU cards that ever has been made or will be made in the foreseeable future.
I should also warn you that rumors say that AMD's next generation of video cards could launch as soon as September, and they're probably starting with the high end. TSMC is promising 45% better performance in the same thermal envelope as a result of the die shrink. Now, "could launch as soon as September" largely rules out July and August, but doesn't necessarily mean it will happen in September. It really means, as soon as TSMC's process node is ready, which it might be in September, or might not happen until next year. Whether you want to wait or not is up to you. For a 2-way CrossFire setup, I personally wouldn't, but I'd hesitate to grab two 6990s now.
I am just going to grab two of the 6970's for now. I have 4 of these monitors and they are 1920 x1080 resolution:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001515
Thanks again for all your help. I would have had one big mess if I had ordered what I started to order before asking for help here.
For a pair of Radeon HD 6970s, you don't need a 1200 W power supply. You can get something just as good of a lower wattage for much cheaper, like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139015
That's actually made by Seasonic.
Or something not quite as good but still really great for cheaper yet:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817322011
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121076
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817116012
Those three are actually all the same thing, and made by Super Flower. Or if you like rebates, then this isn't as good as what I've linked above, but it's still very good:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194076
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Only HDMI and D-Sub on the monitors? Strange. You can spread a game window across all of the monitors using eyefinity, though with four, it looks bad with a monitor bezel in the middle of your character. Three works a lot better, though you could still hook up the fourth monitor to show a web browser or spreadsheet or whatever while you play a game on the other three. I think that in order to use eyefinity, all of the monitors have to be connected to the same card, but I'm not certain of that.
The Cayman GPU chip can power up to six monitors, but at most two of those can be HDMI, DVI, or D-Sub. Most 6970s come with two DVI ports, one HDMI, and two Mini DisplayPort. You can use the HDMI port, and a cheap DVI to HDMI adapter like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812270286
That will cover two of the monitors, but you want all four. For that, you'll need active adapters. Here's AMD's list of what works:
http://support.amd.com/us/eyefinity/Pages/eyefinity-dongles.aspx
The trouble is that you need active adapters to have the power to convert the signal, not just something that will make the pins line up. You can use the VGA/D-Sub cables for the other two monitors. It looks like this one is the only adapter that will work at 1920x1080:
http://www.accellcables.com/products/DisplayPort/DP/mdp_vga.htm
That can be bought in a variety of places, though it looks like New Egg doesn't carry it. Amazon does:
http://www.amazon.com/Accell-B101B-002B-UltraAV-DisplayPort-Adapter/dp/B0041O7XHY
Dude, I've got a Mac Pro with three 27" cinema displays and it didn't cost me that much. On the PC side, you should be able to get top of the line for 1/3 of your 10K.
I have to agree with quiz on this one. 4 is a bad bad number. Span the game through 3 and idk...use the 4th one when not gaming or as a desktop part outside the game. Its quite annoying to have a slightly large line on the center of view.
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
It's not that having four monitors is bad; it's that spreading an Eyefinity display across all four is bad. I've got two monitors, but don't spread the game window across both. The other usually has a spreadsheet to keep track of what I'm doing in the game, or a web browser, which could be looking up stuff on a wiki, posting on a forum like this one, or even reading about politics during breaks in the game.
Someday I want to get an eyefinity setup with three monitors in eyefinity, and then two other, smaller monitors outside of the eyefinity array, to display other things. I'm not satisfied that either video cards or monitors are quite to where I want them to be for that, though.
Keeping in mind that the hotter liquid cooling systems run, the more efficient they get. And that any radiator's performance is going to be greatly influenced by the temperature and the amount of air you can push through it.
A single 120mm radiator is good for about 400W of cooling. Dual fan models (2x120) go up to around 700W, triple fan models (3x120) up to around 1kW of heat. If you are really worried about it, it's very easy to modify a heater core from a car (auto parts stores carry then for about $40), and they are usually about 10" square (equates to roughly 4.5x120mm in terms of surface area) and can dissipate roughly 1.5-1.7kW worth of heat.
-_______-
Motorcycle > computer
Car > computer
House > computer