This type of AI is already in Darkfall (dumbed down version). The NPC's have to aim at the player and can sometimes, but not all the time, predict which way you are going when you are moving. Just like a player. They also hide behind stuff and go by sight and sound instead of aggro range.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
As a Eve online player we have some very good AI controlled NPCs in certain sites where you can go and fight them.
I am on about the wormholes one can enter and the new Incursion sites that were released early this year.
The Incursion sites are some of the most deadly I have seen and requiers team work from the players fleet and a dedicated fleet set up much like what you would use in PvP. The NPCS will go for ships that can heal and sensor jam. they also consider threat levels based on size of ship also. Or whether its badly damaged.
When I flew one on the test server in a tech 3 ship I got wasted by the NPCS, and this was only in a vanguard site. Now a tech 3 ship can usualy tank and solo class 3 wormholes and run 10/10 plexs in null sec easy. But doing it solo in a vanguard class site which is like a level 2 the ship melted.
I have also seen sleepers target 3 different players at the sametime and alpha strike crippled ships. Some of you WoW players wont know the terminology I am using here but never mind.
First of all there is no AI (as Artificial Intelligent not as just "computer opponent") right now at all. Yes, there is Deep Blue or Watson out there that beat human. But only in one particular activity. So well, first and main problem is development of proper computer opponent in a game will cost too much and take a lot of time (well, no one will buy a game for $400). And actually that is the reason we will not see good "AI". Companies wants profit, not some science experiments.
Theoretically you can make a computer opponent right now that will beat even the best human player. Already mentioned Deep Blue and Watson did it. But what for? People like to win. If "AI" will just mop the floor with you, you'll just go mad screaming "Fuuuuuuuuuu~". So current gaming "AI" is ok for most players (for example I can't beat SC2 "AI" because i'm noob, my micro is awful and my multitasking is horrible) and it's a way cheaper to pit pro's against each other. Plus powerful "AI" need very good computational power. That will rise system requirements. No one wants that too.
Plus as i stated in my first post not always i want to see human like AI. For example zombie. Zombie MUST be slow and dumb (every one knows that!). I don't want em be human like, they are goddamn zombies. So RPGs and MMORPGs (in PvE) don't need that "cleaver human like AI", because monsters MUST follow their role. It's like screaming in theatre to the guy who plays Romeo that Juliet actually is alive and he don't need to kill himself, you'll just look stupid and he will kill himself anyway because that's his role after all.
As for "AI" in FPS being joke. It can make a joke out of most players in a game with instant hit weapons even in current conditions. But will it look like human? No. Accurate 90+ degree turns, instant headshots. Ask people what they think about aimbots (and that is basically just "AI" compensating human imperfection). Even trained human (not tired) have a reaction time like 0,3-0,4 second while computer can react almost instantly.
So basically current "AI" in games is ok for me and i don't see a point (only for pure science) to develop some more powerful human like PvP emulation while you can just go online and play against humans (even with humans that match your gaming level).
If we're going to talk AI, we've got to talk choices. And what MMORPG bosses do you know of that have choices to make? While player characters might have 40+ abilities/consumables to choose from, what can bosses really do? They've got their auto-attack, plus a wide-range AOE or two, a few single target abilities, and perhaps 1 or 2 abilities they use on themselves. There is really no "choice" involved except which person (or in which direction) to fire off these abilities. It is not a complicated role; I completely fail to see what is so awful about current boss AI other than the fact that it is required to follow the rules of aggro—which exist in order to avoid invalidating the strengths of a substantial percent of the characters in the game.
If we're going to talk AI, we've got to talk choices. And what MMORPG bosses do you know of that have choices to make? While player characters might have 40+ abilities/consumables to choose from, what can bosses really do? They've got their auto-attack, plus a wide-range AOE or two, a few single target abilities, and perhaps 1 or 2 abilities they use on themselves. There is really no "choice" involved except which person (or in which direction) to fire off these abilities. It is not a complicated role; I completely fail to see what is so awful about current boss AI other than the fact that it is required to follow the rules of aggro—which exist in order to avoid invalidating the strengths of a substantial percent of the characters in the game.
Er, good MMORPG bosses involve choice all the time. Player choices matter in these fights. It's why they're considered good!
Bosses don't need smart AI in order to offer up an interesting dance for the players. Avoid the fire. Take cover behind the rocks. Interrupt the spell. Dance out of the PBAOE then back in to DPS. Queue up the uber heal to counter the uber nuke. These traits (and the 50+ others like them) are the reason bosses offer interesting player choices, and remain fun to players.
Aggro exists as part of a holistic system of puzzles that offers those interesting choices. That's part of why the system as a whole is considered good! (Many players might be tiring of the same system for so long, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a very well-made, very successful game system.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If we're going to talk AI, we've got to talk choices. And what MMORPG bosses do you know of that have choices to make? While player characters might have 40+ abilities/consumables to choose from, what can bosses really do? They've got their auto-attack, plus a wide-range AOE or two, a few single target abilities, and perhaps 1 or 2 abilities they use on themselves. There is really no "choice" involved except which person (or in which direction) to fire off these abilities. It is not a complicated role; I completely fail to see what is so awful about current boss AI other than the fact that it is required to follow the rules of aggro—which exist in order to avoid invalidating the strengths of a substantial percent of the characters in the game.
Er, good MMORPG bosses involve choice all the time. Player choices matter in these fights. It's why they're considered good!
Bosses don't need smart AI in order to offer up an interesting dance for the players. Avoid the fire. Take cover behind the rocks. Interrupt the spell. Dance out of the PBAOE then back in to DPS. Queue up the uber heal to counter the uber nuke. These traits (and the 50+ others like them) are the reason bosses offer interesting player choices, and remain fun to players.
Aggro exists as part of a holistic system of puzzles that offers those interesting choices. That's part of why the system as a whole is considered good! (Many players might be tiring of the same system for so long, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a very well-made, very successful game system.)
Oops. I guess I wasn't all that clear there. I know that player choices matter, what I'm saying is that the boss's choices don't matter. If the only things it can do are Fire Breath, Tail Swing, and Mega Claw, it doesn't matter if freakin' Skynet is in the pilot's seat. No amount of intelligent scripting is going to make that dragon appear to be a genius tactician... other than giving it free reign to ignore aggro and attack the clothies and healers first (which just introduces another major flaw).
All I'm saying is that upgrading a boss to have "smart AI" would drastically change the feel of the fight or its level of difficulty, and it would certainly not be the magical cure that some people are suggesting.
I been doing some thinking on the topic of how a More Advanced AI for NPC would effect gameplay in most MMORPG.
I come to realize that in this situation, that NPC were as smart as a hardcore PvPer, this new advance AI would have a much greater effect on NPC that are much more powerful than their trash mob counterparts. This is when compared to Mobs and Powerful NPC from Trinity mechanics.
A Powerful Raid Boss, with Hardcore PvP skilled AI, would be nearly impossible to beat, because with their unique abilities, and massive damage, they could easily blow off healers in the group, then take out tanks and melee dps. and blast down ranged dps with long distant one shotted attacks,
Since the AI is so advanced, their is no way to control these kind of powerful mobs.
The only way NPC can have this level of AI and still be playable is if all these NPC where on a power level that was close to that of a Player group.
In a game like WoW for example, fighting Raggy with Advanced AI, would be nearly impossible due to his massive power level compared to player group. No form of Control would work for a Advanced AI power house like this that can 1 shot anybody he chooses.
But in a game like Guild Wars, which has the Boss NPC on a power level closer to that of the combined group, its much more easier to apply advanced AI.
To sum it up. Seems like a big trade off. You can have Weaker NPC with Advanced AI, or Powerful NPC with Weaker AI.
Actually a more clever AI would help advanced the structure of PVE gameplay. I don't know how you can mesh the skillset of a PVP player to a PVE NPC Ai. I think the reason why you can't see it is simply because you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. You're trying to mix and match intelligent Ai with the trinity. I think the trinity can still be in affect with a more intelligent AI but the strategem of gameplay will ultimately change.
I see it as Ai being more adaptive in combat whereas it doesn't run off a linear script for the tank and spank stratagem. What does adaptive combat mean? That means that as a player you may have to change your strategy based upon the rank of the enemy. Essentially, some mobs will be able to adapt more than others. Ai will still run off a script, just more if than statements.
In order to have a more intelligent Ai you have to design combat mechanics that will complement the enemy Ai. It can be done. I think I'd like to see an atempt with it to be honest. This same ole tank and spank stratagem is getting bland. Changing the tank and spank doesn't necessarly mean we have to due away with classes with this system either.
In conclusion, having smarter Ai would enchance a more challenging combat within mmos and allows the player to think and strategize. Players may have to become a tactician in some fights. It also helps enchances risk vs reward as well. Essentially, each mob that has a chance to become more adaptive is like a puzzel within combat. When to do and when not to do something. I myself and I am sure many more players will find this type of combat more rewarding.
Oops. I guess I wasn't all that clear there. I know that player choices matter, what I'm saying is that the boss's choices don't matter. If the only things it can do are Fire Breath, Tail Swing, and Mega Claw, it doesn't matter if freakin' Skynet is in the pilot's seat. No amount of intelligent scripting is going to make that dragon appear to be a genius tactician... other than giving it free reign to ignore aggro and attack the clothies and healers first (which just introduces another major flaw).
All I'm saying is that upgrading a boss to have "smart AI" would drastically change the feel of the fight or its level of difficulty, and it would certainly not be the magical cure that some people are suggesting.
Ah, yeah I agree with all of that.
Smart AI essentially translates to "rip out the threat minigame" which begs the question, "Okay you removed the interesting combat puzzle; what will you replace it with that's at least equally as fun?"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
This type of AI is already in Darkfall (dumbed down version). The NPC's have to aim at the player and can sometimes, but not all the time, predict which way you are going when you are moving. Just like a player. They also hide behind stuff and go by sight and sound instead of aggro range.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
As a Eve online player we have some very good AI controlled NPCs in certain sites where you can go and fight them.
I am on about the wormholes one can enter and the new Incursion sites that were released early this year.
The Incursion sites are some of the most deadly I have seen and requiers team work from the players fleet and a dedicated fleet set up much like what you would use in PvP. The NPCS will go for ships that can heal and sensor jam. they also consider threat levels based on size of ship also. Or whether its badly damaged.
When I flew one on the test server in a tech 3 ship I got wasted by the NPCS, and this was only in a vanguard site. Now a tech 3 ship can usualy tank and solo class 3 wormholes and run 10/10 plexs in null sec easy. But doing it solo in a vanguard class site which is like a level 2 the ship melted.
I have also seen sleepers target 3 different players at the sametime and alpha strike crippled ships. Some of you WoW players wont know the terminology I am using here but never mind.
And you get everything wrong.
First of all there is no AI (as Artificial Intelligent not as just "computer opponent") right now at all. Yes, there is Deep Blue or Watson out there that beat human. But only in one particular activity. So well, first and main problem is development of proper computer opponent in a game will cost too much and take a lot of time (well, no one will buy a game for $400). And actually that is the reason we will not see good "AI". Companies wants profit, not some science experiments.
Theoretically you can make a computer opponent right now that will beat even the best human player. Already mentioned Deep Blue and Watson did it. But what for? People like to win. If "AI" will just mop the floor with you, you'll just go mad screaming "Fuuuuuuuuuu~". So current gaming "AI" is ok for most players (for example I can't beat SC2 "AI" because i'm noob, my micro is awful and my multitasking is horrible) and it's a way cheaper to pit pro's against each other. Plus powerful "AI" need very good computational power. That will rise system requirements. No one wants that too.
Plus as i stated in my first post not always i want to see human like AI. For example zombie. Zombie MUST be slow and dumb (every one knows that!). I don't want em be human like, they are goddamn zombies. So RPGs and MMORPGs (in PvE) don't need that "cleaver human like AI", because monsters MUST follow their role. It's like screaming in theatre to the guy who plays Romeo that Juliet actually is alive and he don't need to kill himself, you'll just look stupid and he will kill himself anyway because that's his role after all.
As for "AI" in FPS being joke. It can make a joke out of most players in a game with instant hit weapons even in current conditions. But will it look like human? No. Accurate 90+ degree turns, instant headshots. Ask people what they think about aimbots (and that is basically just "AI" compensating human imperfection). Even trained human (not tired) have a reaction time like 0,3-0,4 second while computer can react almost instantly.
So basically current "AI" in games is ok for me and i don't see a point (only for pure science) to develop some more powerful human like PvP emulation while you can just go online and play against humans (even with humans that match your gaming level).
If we're going to talk AI, we've got to talk choices. And what MMORPG bosses do you know of that have choices to make? While player characters might have 40+ abilities/consumables to choose from, what can bosses really do? They've got their auto-attack, plus a wide-range AOE or two, a few single target abilities, and perhaps 1 or 2 abilities they use on themselves. There is really no "choice" involved except which person (or in which direction) to fire off these abilities. It is not a complicated role; I completely fail to see what is so awful about current boss AI other than the fact that it is required to follow the rules of aggro—which exist in order to avoid invalidating the strengths of a substantial percent of the characters in the game.
Er, good MMORPG bosses involve choice all the time. Player choices matter in these fights. It's why they're considered good!
Bosses don't need smart AI in order to offer up an interesting dance for the players. Avoid the fire. Take cover behind the rocks. Interrupt the spell. Dance out of the PBAOE then back in to DPS. Queue up the uber heal to counter the uber nuke. These traits (and the 50+ others like them) are the reason bosses offer interesting player choices, and remain fun to players.
Aggro exists as part of a holistic system of puzzles that offers those interesting choices. That's part of why the system as a whole is considered good! (Many players might be tiring of the same system for so long, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a very well-made, very successful game system.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Oops. I guess I wasn't all that clear there. I know that player choices matter, what I'm saying is that the boss's choices don't matter. If the only things it can do are Fire Breath, Tail Swing, and Mega Claw, it doesn't matter if freakin' Skynet is in the pilot's seat. No amount of intelligent scripting is going to make that dragon appear to be a genius tactician... other than giving it free reign to ignore aggro and attack the clothies and healers first (which just introduces another major flaw).
All I'm saying is that upgrading a boss to have "smart AI" would drastically change the feel of the fight or its level of difficulty, and it would certainly not be the magical cure that some people are suggesting.
Actually a more clever AI would help advanced the structure of PVE gameplay. I don't know how you can mesh the skillset of a PVP player to a PVE NPC Ai. I think the reason why you can't see it is simply because you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. You're trying to mix and match intelligent Ai with the trinity. I think the trinity can still be in affect with a more intelligent AI but the strategem of gameplay will ultimately change.
I see it as Ai being more adaptive in combat whereas it doesn't run off a linear script for the tank and spank stratagem. What does adaptive combat mean? That means that as a player you may have to change your strategy based upon the rank of the enemy. Essentially, some mobs will be able to adapt more than others. Ai will still run off a script, just more if than statements.
In order to have a more intelligent Ai you have to design combat mechanics that will complement the enemy Ai. It can be done. I think I'd like to see an atempt with it to be honest. This same ole tank and spank stratagem is getting bland. Changing the tank and spank doesn't necessarly mean we have to due away with classes with this system either.
In conclusion, having smarter Ai would enchance a more challenging combat within mmos and allows the player to think and strategize. Players may have to become a tactician in some fights. It also helps enchances risk vs reward as well. Essentially, each mob that has a chance to become more adaptive is like a puzzel within combat. When to do and when not to do something. I myself and I am sure many more players will find this type of combat more rewarding.
Ah, yeah I agree with all of that.
Smart AI essentially translates to "rip out the threat minigame" which begs the question, "Okay you removed the interesting combat puzzle; what will you replace it with that's at least equally as fun?"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver