When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
Now is this a problem only TOR suffers from? Most themepark games use elements of single player RPG's, the difference here is one of presentation, not really much else. The MMO part ia something else entirely, and we can never tell how it's going to be until we reach the cap stage of the game, longevity is something we'll never know until we've given up due to boredom or are still playing 2-3 years later.
The million dollar question of this thread is will the story presentation be better served than typcial MMO story presentation. Which I side on Biowares corner, as I've felt story presentation is something that has really been lacking in Themepark MMO's. They more or less are all story oriented, the problem is it's always been presented like a bad novel, rather than an engrossing narrative.
This is the big difference between Themepark design and Sandbox design, a sandbox isn't really about narrative outside of that which you create for yourself. This isn't the case with Themeparks, from WOW to Lotro to AOC etc.. They're all about an overall story. The problem is in most cases the story isn't presented in a way that draws interest to it.
It's not by any means the only problem TOR might suffer from. It looks as though it will suffer from the exact same issues that pretty much any other themepark MMO would suffer from. From what has been released by Bioware pertaining to the mechanics of the game, I honestly only see two main points that would set the game apart from the competition, and that is story and voice overs. Though technically, in some ways it could consider that they technically boil down to being one and the same actually thing since they're both in part of presenting a quality storytelling experience.
Essentially, from what I can see TOR looks to like it will be a one trick pony when compared to it's peers. That one trick of course, being presenting a deep storyline experience (Voice overs included). As I mentioned earlier in prior posts, is what my concern of the longterm viability of the game. If it does truly turn out that Bioware cannot consistently pump out content of a high enough volume and quality to keep the greater population busy and entertained, then the game could lose it's identity and very well end up being labled as yet another bland cookie cutter themepark MMO in the long run.
I honestly don't know how things will turn out, but it does look like it could be a very daunting task ahead for Bioware to keep SWTOR players entertained in the long haul.
Oh I completely agree, there's a lot that could go wrong and longevity is a concern of mine as well. I was merely making a point that I think the story aspects can work in a themepark oriented experience. Like I said though the longevity of the MMO aspects is up in the air at this point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In a single player game this issue can be easily overlooked, but in a MMO where the Storyline takes over the game, that can be a huge problem.
In AoC the Tortage section is the best part of the game because it's all about the storytelling.
Problem is that when the players leave Tortage, the game looks like another game and generally players quit.
Another problem with AoC and Tortage is that players that reroll an Alt, don't want to play the Tortage section again and ask always if it is possible to skip it altogheter.
That's actually the most asked question in General chat, people do not like to re-play a Storyline.
So for SWTOR I foresee the same problem if not bigger.
Once players reach level cap, and run out of stories, the game will look completely different from what they've been playing few hours earlier, and in my opinion they will lose interest
It would be like playing to different games, Dragon Age until level cap and WoW when you reach the end game.
I predict the end game to be the same as WoW and Rift, good but not great, therefore I don't see this game doing fantastically great.
It won't be a disaster, but I predict subscription numbers around 500K (in the West) after 2-3 months.
Not bad by any means, but a farcry from the numbers a 300 Million investment requires to make this game look like a success.
Am I a hater? If you categorize everyone who criticise constructively this game, maybe I am.
I possess all Bioware games since Baldurs Gate, and I love them, I am just realistic.
I will buy the game and I will play it until I reach the "WoW section", then I will quit, like the majority of players who bought the game.
I am just disappointed that Bioware could not come up with something a bit more creative than that.
Ok I posted this thread and then went to work...hours and pages later:
First, let me state that this was never a thread about me "not liking" Bioware or it's stories. When I read about concerns people have regarding the game yet to be released, many times someone will respond with a statement about how great or amazing Bioware is at telling a good story in their video games. I think it's great if you feel that way--there are times when I'm anxiously awaiting another episode of a tv show or the next book in the Star Wars saga etc--so I understand. I just don't have those feelings when I think about my experiences with Bioware's games. As far as video games go, they're ok. One reason this issue of "amazing" story is on my mind is because I recently read the web comics...I was not impressed--and it occurred to me that this is probably going to be similar to the stories we'll soon experience. Not everyone will agree, of that I'm certain, but now I see that there are some here that are just as "meh" about Bioware's storytelling past as I am. Remember it's not that we're saying Bioware sucks, or that this story better be amazing for me to play this game, it's more that we're not anticipating or anxious because of Bioware's amazing storytelling reputation.
Secondly, information about this game is coming out more and more frequently and with better details and impressions. When this happens, people feel like commenting--sharing their opinions about information they've come across...some of it is very positive "Great! I can't wait!"--some are more neutral "Sounds ok but..."--and then there are those that don't like what they've heard "This is not good news!"--all of those responses I feel are valid, and can be debated no problem--they like it...why? they don't like it...why not? What gets me is the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" or pretty much the "go away" type responses...especially when it's in response to someone that never said they weren't going to get the game, or that they dislike or hate Bioware or whatever. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I'm going to assume that those of you that responded to my post in that manner--you probably didn't read it and just assumed it was a "I hate Bioware stories" thread...correct? The same goes for those that think because I'm not impressed with ME and KOTOR's story, that maybe that's an indication that I don't read, or have no interest in stories of any kind--where does that come from?
I'll admit that I'm a SWG vet...more importantly, it's the only MMORPG I have any real experience with. I tried playing "Hero online" because I think it was free, but that was nothing like what I was used to--you'd go from zone to zone, and the mobs there would only be suited for certain levels...it was rather lame to me (plus it wasn't scifi)--I don't know if any of you tried it, but I gave it a shot for like a week ...right after the CU I think it was. My point being, when someone in my situation reads up on this game, saying things like "it's like every other MMORPG except it's story driven", or "linear type progression", "themepark", etc...I have no idea what that type of MMORPG feels like. People say SWG is a sandbox, and this is not. I have no idea what, if anything, I should get excited about when it comes to this game being developed. Now, if next week they say "Introducing the Creature Handling profession, and they get flying mounts!"...well, something like that would be pretty exciting because I know something about being a Master Creature Handler--but saying, "there are hours and hours of story, and you level as you progress through your class story..."--besides sounding like a normal RPG, that doesn't sound like a way to get someone in my situation excited about a new MMORPG...not that they should worry about those of us who've only played SWG.
Let me conclude this rather wordy post with this: There was never a question if I would try this game--I was always going to try this game--I even upgraded my computers so I'd be ready. I really hope I enjoy it for what it is, but as much as I'm happy for those that love everything they hear about this upcoming game, I'm also very understanding of those that have questions, and yes, even doubts about this game...May the force be witcha lol
Originally posted by ScoutMastr When I see posts like "Story is what Bioware does better...etc." , I have a hard time taking them seriously. I have to admit, the only Bioware stories I've completed are Mass Effect 1 & 2...I tried playing through KOTOR, but it glitched towards the end on my 360--I have no intentions of breakin out my old XBOX at the moment and then playing through it all again. Not ONCE was I "amazed" at any of the interactions with the characters or stories being told in those games--In fact, for the most part, I found myself trying to do whatever I wanted to do...usually stuff that was impossible, but you get bored with the narrative and then start making a game out of not playing the darn game...that's why I loved the first Assassin's Creed--playing it like it was meant to be played was rather boring, but you could have fun just being a mass murderer and then piling up the streets with dead guards and civilians, or simply just running along rooftops and whatnot--screw the story lol.
I know a guy at work that's going back to school(College), and he was telling me that he never considered himself very good at writing, but many people seemed rather impressed with his papers. He figured he was average at best, but during some sort of student peer evaluation--where he and the other students were critiquing each others' work...well, this is the impression he got from those students that were pretty much fresh out of high school: "WHAT I DID ON MY SUMMER VACATION:" "I HAD FUN ON MY SUMMER VACATION. I WENT TO THE BEACH WITH MY FRIENDS..."... you get the idea. For some reason, when he told me that, it made me think about Bioware's stories...I kid you not. Sure you can make choices that might have consequences, but that doesn't make it a "good" story. The stories probably aren't "bad", they just seem rather uninspired to me, and from what i've seen from this new story, it's much of the same. As far as video games go, Bioware probably doesn't have the worst stories, but I can think of a couple that I think have better stories--like GOW3(the only one I've played), and The Force Unleashed(the first one). I didn't much care for the subject matter, or even the characters in "God of War", but story-wise I thought it was better than the last "Clash of the Titans" movie lol. the story in TFU wasn't great by any means, but it was better than KOTOR in my opinion...I'm not even sure who made those games, but I know LucasArts had to be involved with TFU.
I think this is why so many people have their reservations about implementing this type of story mechanic in an MMORPG, especially if SWG was the only MMORPG you've ever played. That's the case for me, so I'll never have that "It's Bioware, and the one thing that they do best is story" feeling.
It is not the stories but how you tell them. Storytelling is an art and a good storyteller can make even a boring and bland story very interesting. On the other hand a bad storyteller can ruin even the most interesting stories. And Bioware got the skills.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
It's a personal taste thing, really. Some people like KoTOR, some prefer Mass Effect, some swear by Dragon Age, some like the old-school BioWare stuff better, and some just plain don't like their storytelling style.
There's nothing "wrong" with any of the above opinions, because they're opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own.
There's not much point in telling the OP that he's wrong or that SW:TOR may not be the game for him... with the level of emphasis that's being placed on story, seems to me that if you don't generally enjoy BioWare's style of storytelling it could well be a major concern about the game.
All that I can say is that as far as I know (don't ask me to find a link, I'm not awake yet!) there was a huge writing team brought in for the game, and that maybe they're looking outside their standard "forumla" for this one. If it's a pleasant surprise for the OP, so much the better. With 8 distinct storylines I'd hope there really is something there for everyone.
That's because the cool stories were made by Obsidian (NWN1, KOTOR2), while rest is made by Bioware and fits the cliche, something terrible happens, go visit 4 places, romance the only storyline chick, oneshot the boss
That's because the cool stories were made by Obsidian (NWN1, KOTOR2), while rest is made by Bioware and fits the cliche, something terrible happens, go visit 4 places, romance the only storyline chick, oneshot the boss
ok it must be past my bedtime because I can't stop laughing..."oneshot the boss" LMAO...man if they made a game like that LOL
That's because the cool stories were made by Obsidian (NWN1, KOTOR2), while rest is made by Bioware and fits the cliche, something terrible happens, go visit 4 places, romance the only storyline chick, oneshot the boss
Meh. Sorry, but I can say it's all a cliche if you look purely at the core. Let's take a look at some other games:
- Final Fantasy games: a doom emerges/something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, find romance with one of your travel companions, deal with the big bads
- Heavy Rain: something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, find romance with one of your mystery solving partners, deal with the big bads
- Silent Hill games: a doom emerges/something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, (sometimes) find romance with one of your companions, deal with the big bads
etc etc
Interestingly enough is that BW did go for another direction with the basic story process for DA2, but that a whole lot of people didn't like the story.
At their core a lot of stories are the same or are founded upon a mere handful of archetypal primal storylines. You can do this same trick for movies and certain tv show categories too, and I'll tell you a secret, it also applies to a lot of the stories that are told throughout the ages like the Greek mythologies and plays, the Greek themselves already discerned the same basic structure that was the foundation of most of the stories.
What makes the difference is in the delivery, presentation and how the core story is shaped throughout the journey and this is what Bioware has been good at.
At the OP, if SWG is the only MMORPG that you have played or liked, then I doubt that SWTOR is something for you. SWTOR will be a totally different MMORPG from what SWG was, SWTOR will be a themepark styled MMO and not a sandbox MMO like SWG was, if that's not something that you're looking for or want in an MMORPG and if you're looking for mechanics and features from SWG in SWTOR, then I doubt SWTOR will be an MMORPG that you can enjoy. Especially if the BW style of storytelling is not something you particularly like in their games you played.
Maybe it'd be better to do yourself a favor and look for another MMO than SWTOR for your gaming, ArcheAge seems to be more into the direction of sandbox style gameplay.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That's because the cool stories were made by Obsidian (NWN1, KOTOR2), while rest is made by Bioware and fits the cliche, something terrible happens, go visit 4 places, romance the only storyline chick, oneshot the boss
Meh. Sorry, but I can say it's all a cliche if you look purely at the core. Let's take a look at some other games:
- Final Fantasy games: a doom emerges/something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, find romance with one of your travel companions, deal with the big bads
- Heavy Rain: something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, find romance with one of your mystery solving partners, deal with the big bads
- Silent Hill games: a doom emerges/something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, (sometimes) find romance with one of your companions, deal with the big bads
etc etc
Interestingly enough is that BW did go for another direction with the basic story process for DA2, but that a whole lot of people didn't like the story.
At their core a lot of stories are the same or are founded upon a mere handful of archetypal primal storylines. You can do this same trick for movies and certain tv show categories too, and I'll tell you a secret, it also applies to a lot of the stories that are told throughout the ages like the Greek mythologies and plays, the Greek themselves already discerned the same basic structure that was the foundation of most of the stories.
What makes the difference is in the delivery, presentation and how the core story is shaped throughout the journey and this is what Bioware has been good at.
At the OP, if SWG is the only MMORPG that you have played or liked, then I doubt that SWTOR is something for you. SWTOR will be a totally different MMORPG from what SWG was, SWTOR will be a themepark styled MMO and not a sandbox MMO like SWG was, if that's not something that you're looking for or want in an MMORPG and if you're looking for mechanics and features from SWG in SWTOR, then I doubt SWTOR will be an MMORPG that you can enjoy. Especially if the BW style of storytelling is not something you particularly like in their games you played.
Maybe it'd be better to do yourself a favor and look for another MMO than SWTOR for your gaming, ArcheAge seems to be more into the direction of sandbox style gameplay.
In defense of my precious old-school Final Fantasy games, it wasn't until later games that romance started grabbing game time. FF7 had Cloud all boner-heavy over Aries, but she dies in the first third of the game and nothing happens. After that, it did get cliche every single time.
you could plug in just about any adventure style movie/story book/anything into that same equation and draw simmaler results. That chart is just a generic story chart. Its the story teling abilitys that draw most people into any form of story telling, not the subject matter. You could easily tie in Harry Potter, Warhammer 40k Dark Heresy, DnD, Star Wars, Star Trek (Kinda iffy but only cus most people start born in the federation, wich is nice and happy except that blond security chick on Next Gen she was from a Rape Planet) even the old clasics to that flow chart and still get the same results. 20k Leagues under the sea, Moby Dick, Red Planet, Star Ship Troopers.
The option is simple if you want to play a roll your face accross the keys game skip the quest and just follow your quest helper to the end of the quest then go play wow or one of its meny clones. But if you want something diffrent that has full voice over interaction story driven plots then waite for SW:TOR cus thats what they have sold us on since the start. If the pop out a game that doesnt diliver that then it is gonna fail boat off the charts, and I will glady come back to these forums and apoligise for being a Biowere fan boi cus I am, I love the way they tell storys. but something tells me thats not gonna have to happen.
Well I guess it depends on what "era" of bioware you are talking about and whether you focus on the companion stories
Baldur's Gate 2 has a quite interesting and fleshed out story that is presented in such a way its not that obvious. KOTOR and ME much less so and they tend to focus on smaller vignettes.
However no Bioware game is ever likely to approach Planescape:Torment in terms of story, but almost no game does. Just the structure of the story itself (and fluid nature of the main character) lends itself to an RPG better than the rather linear way bioware tends to do things.
Well, the best Bioware RPG is no doubt BG2. It is also the game where Bioware did its best storytelling, but they already had a pretty good setting for that. The new games are not that well written in my opinion, if you compare against likes of The Wticher series or PlanetScape: Torment for example. Bioware could have done a lot more with Dragon Age, but ended up with fairly typical high fantasy setting in the end. However, they are still among the best RPGs out there. Even tho they are getting lighter on the RPG aspects more recently.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Well, the best Bioware RPG is no doubt BG2. It is also story telling at its finest. The new games are not that well written in my opinion, if you compare against likes of The Wticher series or PlanetScape: Torment for example. However, they are still among the best RPGs out there. Even tho they are getting lighter on the RPG aspects more recently.
The difference between The Witcher 1&2 and Bioware RPG's is it's an established popular series of Novels, CDprojekt has plenty of lore to pull from in what they created, it's not exactly an original story compared to what ME1&2, DA, Jade empire, or even in the manner in which KOTOR, or TOR are. The witcher is actually set in the period of the novels and presents them in VG form, Bioware more or less even in KOTOR created a lot of what is known about this period in time in the SW universe, sans the comic series Tales of the Jedi. WHich they also pulled lore from.
One of Bioware's writers is who established how the rule of two came to be, and it became official canon. This speaks a lot about the quality of writing staff Bioware employs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It is not the stories but how you tell them. Storytelling is an art and a good storyteller can make even a boring and bland story very interesting. On the other hand a bad storyteller can ruin even the most interesting stories. And Bioware got the skills.
And Bioware having the "skills" is where i disagree - or maybe the writers just didn't get the time they needed. Bioware are strangely hit-or-miss with their storytelling. And sometimes, they miss big time.
Someone complained that I said Mass Effect was "bad" - I didn't, I said that ME1 was good despite its flaws, but that ME2 was terrible. As a trilogy, Mass Effect is indeed already ruined because of ME2.
Explaining my reasons would result in a wall of text, so I'll let this guy do the explaing:
I agree with most of this excellent (and funny ^^) analysis, although there's a little bashing sometimes. It should also show why it's not just a matter of opinion whether storytelling is considered good or not - you may like ME2 regardless, but you can't deny all it's flaws and missed opportunities. Skilled storytelling, this is not.
i personally thought that KOTOR 1 had a great story and ending and think that if a SW movie was made with that story that it would be one of the better movies.
ME 1 story was pretty good as well.
cant speak for the BG games because i never played them before.
Nope. I don't find them so amazing that i need waste 60 dollars on them. 99% of the choices you make dont even matter. And they're typical stories with typical characters. Nothing to shake a stick at. They're very over rated just like all their games.
Yes, you're the only one. I don't know how one simple question turned into paragraphs of regurgitated complaints, but I didn't read it. Thanks for posting your question as your subject so those of us with lives didn't have to read all that crap.
Yes, you're the only one. I don't know how one simple question turned into paragraphs of regurgitated complaints, but I didn't read it. Thanks for posting your question as your subject so those of us with lives didn't have to read all that crap.
Fair enough...not really--but maybe when you haven't anything to do you could give it a read?
There is absolutely nothing special about bioware stories. Games like Dragon Age are the worst type of RPG - completely linear and no room for exploration.
The stories are full of shite stereotypical card board cut out characters.
Just a pile of shite really.
Not looking forward to the steaming pile of crap that is going to be The Old Republic.
I rarely see a movie or play a game where the story amazes me or the twist is cool and makes sense instead of being forced and often redundant. I've played console and pc games for 25 years or so, tabletop games, pnp rpgs etc... I dont get amazed.
Yes, you're the only one. I don't know how one simple question turned into paragraphs of regurgitated complaints, but I didn't read it. Thanks for posting your question as your subject so those of us with lives didn't have to read all that crap.
He is not the only one.
BW stories are mediocre at best They aren't bad tho.
Then again what did you expect when story for DA2 was written by a girl who hated the fact that she has to play the game to see it.
Well, the best Bioware RPG is no doubt BG2. It is also story telling at its finest. The new games are not that well written in my opinion, if you compare against likes of The Wticher series or PlanetScape: Torment for example. However, they are still among the best RPGs out there. Even tho they are getting lighter on the RPG aspects more recently.
The difference between The Witcher 1&2 and Bioware RPG's is it's an established popular series of Novels, CDprojekt has plenty of lore to pull from in what they created, it's not exactly an original story compared to what ME1&2, DA, Jade empire, or even in the manner in which KOTOR, or TOR are. The witcher is actually set in the period of the novels and presents them in VG form, Bioware more or less even in KOTOR created a lot of what is known about this period in time in the SW universe, sans the comic series Tales of the Jedi. WHich they also pulled lore from.
One of Bioware's writers is who established how the rule of two came to be, and it became official canon. This speaks a lot about the quality of writing staff Bioware employs.
Sorry, but Bioware did not invent the setting for KOTOR or TOR. They just expanded it just like CDproject has done with The Witcher.
Also, my point is not about being original series. I do not really care. I liked Bioware story a lot with the BG series. I liked it less with Neverwinter Nights. KOTOR had a pretty good story albeit felt a bit rushed towards the end. Mass Effect has a pretty interesting, albeit stereotypical, space opera setting, which makes a great backdrop for the story and interesting characters. Dragon Age, being branded as a dark fantasy, simply ends up being a very boring setting. This is of course a matter of opinion, but the Witcher world is far superior as a backdrop heck even Forgotten Realms was more interesting.
I cannot argue much about the quality of writing/story in TOR. We have to wait and see.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Comments
To OP...I think SWTOR is really mega overhyped....but people will see it in time......
They will see it really brings nothing new in MMORPG land...
It's the same story all over again....only in a star wars universe....
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.
Edgar Allan Poe
Oh I completely agree, there's a lot that could go wrong and longevity is a concern of mine as well. I was merely making a point that I think the story aspects can work in a themepark oriented experience. Like I said though the longevity of the MMO aspects is up in the air at this point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That's Bioware big problem
In a single player game this issue can be easily overlooked, but in a MMO where the Storyline takes over the game, that can be a huge problem.
In AoC the Tortage section is the best part of the game because it's all about the storytelling.
Problem is that when the players leave Tortage, the game looks like another game and generally players quit.
Another problem with AoC and Tortage is that players that reroll an Alt, don't want to play the Tortage section again and ask always if it is possible to skip it altogheter.
That's actually the most asked question in General chat, people do not like to re-play a Storyline.
So for SWTOR I foresee the same problem if not bigger.
Once players reach level cap, and run out of stories, the game will look completely different from what they've been playing few hours earlier, and in my opinion they will lose interest
It would be like playing to different games, Dragon Age until level cap and WoW when you reach the end game.
I predict the end game to be the same as WoW and Rift, good but not great, therefore I don't see this game doing fantastically great.
It won't be a disaster, but I predict subscription numbers around 500K (in the West) after 2-3 months.
Not bad by any means, but a farcry from the numbers a 300 Million investment requires to make this game look like a success.
Am I a hater? If you categorize everyone who criticise constructively this game, maybe I am.
I possess all Bioware games since Baldurs Gate, and I love them, I am just realistic.
I will buy the game and I will play it until I reach the "WoW section", then I will quit, like the majority of players who bought the game.
I am just disappointed that Bioware could not come up with something a bit more creative than that.
Ok I posted this thread and then went to work...hours and pages later:
First, let me state that this was never a thread about me "not liking" Bioware or it's stories. When I read about concerns people have regarding the game yet to be released, many times someone will respond with a statement about how great or amazing Bioware is at telling a good story in their video games. I think it's great if you feel that way--there are times when I'm anxiously awaiting another episode of a tv show or the next book in the Star Wars saga etc--so I understand. I just don't have those feelings when I think about my experiences with Bioware's games. As far as video games go, they're ok. One reason this issue of "amazing" story is on my mind is because I recently read the web comics...I was not impressed--and it occurred to me that this is probably going to be similar to the stories we'll soon experience. Not everyone will agree, of that I'm certain, but now I see that there are some here that are just as "meh" about Bioware's storytelling past as I am. Remember it's not that we're saying Bioware sucks, or that this story better be amazing for me to play this game, it's more that we're not anticipating or anxious because of Bioware's amazing storytelling reputation.
Secondly, information about this game is coming out more and more frequently and with better details and impressions. When this happens, people feel like commenting--sharing their opinions about information they've come across...some of it is very positive "Great! I can't wait!"--some are more neutral "Sounds ok but..."--and then there are those that don't like what they've heard "This is not good news!"--all of those responses I feel are valid, and can be debated no problem--they like it...why? they don't like it...why not? What gets me is the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" or pretty much the "go away" type responses...especially when it's in response to someone that never said they weren't going to get the game, or that they dislike or hate Bioware or whatever. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I'm going to assume that those of you that responded to my post in that manner--you probably didn't read it and just assumed it was a "I hate Bioware stories" thread...correct? The same goes for those that think because I'm not impressed with ME and KOTOR's story, that maybe that's an indication that I don't read, or have no interest in stories of any kind--where does that come from?
I'll admit that I'm a SWG vet...more importantly, it's the only MMORPG I have any real experience with. I tried playing "Hero online" because I think it was free, but that was nothing like what I was used to--you'd go from zone to zone, and the mobs there would only be suited for certain levels...it was rather lame to me (plus it wasn't scifi)--I don't know if any of you tried it, but I gave it a shot for like a week ...right after the CU I think it was. My point being, when someone in my situation reads up on this game, saying things like "it's like every other MMORPG except it's story driven", or "linear type progression", "themepark", etc...I have no idea what that type of MMORPG feels like. People say SWG is a sandbox, and this is not. I have no idea what, if anything, I should get excited about when it comes to this game being developed. Now, if next week they say "Introducing the Creature Handling profession, and they get flying mounts!"...well, something like that would be pretty exciting because I know something about being a Master Creature Handler--but saying, "there are hours and hours of story, and you level as you progress through your class story..."--besides sounding like a normal RPG, that doesn't sound like a way to get someone in my situation excited about a new MMORPG...not that they should worry about those of us who've only played SWG.
Let me conclude this rather wordy post with this: There was never a question if I would try this game--I was always going to try this game--I even upgraded my computers so I'd be ready. I really hope I enjoy it for what it is, but as much as I'm happy for those that love everything they hear about this upcoming game, I'm also very understanding of those that have questions, and yes, even doubts about this game...May the force be witcha lol
It is not the stories but how you tell them. Storytelling is an art and a good storyteller can make even a boring and bland story very interesting. On the other hand a bad storyteller can ruin even the most interesting stories. And Bioware got the skills.
Heso o kamedomo oyobanu -- Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
It's a personal taste thing, really. Some people like KoTOR, some prefer Mass Effect, some swear by Dragon Age, some like the old-school BioWare stuff better, and some just plain don't like their storytelling style.
There's nothing "wrong" with any of the above opinions, because they're opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own.
There's not much point in telling the OP that he's wrong or that SW:TOR may not be the game for him... with the level of emphasis that's being placed on story, seems to me that if you don't generally enjoy BioWare's style of storytelling it could well be a major concern about the game.
All that I can say is that as far as I know (don't ask me to find a link, I'm not awake yet!) there was a huge writing team brought in for the game, and that maybe they're looking outside their standard "forumla" for this one. If it's a pleasant surprise for the OP, so much the better. With 8 distinct storylines I'd hope there really is something there for everyone.
That's because the cool stories were made by Obsidian (NWN1, KOTOR2), while rest is made by Bioware and fits the cliche, something terrible happens, go visit 4 places, romance the only storyline chick, oneshot the boss
ok it must be past my bedtime because I can't stop laughing..."oneshot the boss" LMAO...man if they made a game like that LOL
Meh. Sorry, but I can say it's all a cliche if you look purely at the core. Let's take a look at some other games:
- Final Fantasy games: a doom emerges/something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, find romance with one of your travel companions, deal with the big bads
- Heavy Rain: something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, find romance with one of your mystery solving partners, deal with the big bads
- Silent Hill games: a doom emerges/something terrible happens, go visit places and learn what's going on, (sometimes) find romance with one of your companions, deal with the big bads
etc etc
Interestingly enough is that BW did go for another direction with the basic story process for DA2, but that a whole lot of people didn't like the story.
At their core a lot of stories are the same or are founded upon a mere handful of archetypal primal storylines. You can do this same trick for movies and certain tv show categories too, and I'll tell you a secret, it also applies to a lot of the stories that are told throughout the ages like the Greek mythologies and plays, the Greek themselves already discerned the same basic structure that was the foundation of most of the stories.
What makes the difference is in the delivery, presentation and how the core story is shaped throughout the journey and this is what Bioware has been good at.
At the OP, if SWG is the only MMORPG that you have played or liked, then I doubt that SWTOR is something for you. SWTOR will be a totally different MMORPG from what SWG was, SWTOR will be a themepark styled MMO and not a sandbox MMO like SWG was, if that's not something that you're looking for or want in an MMORPG and if you're looking for mechanics and features from SWG in SWTOR, then I doubt SWTOR will be an MMORPG that you can enjoy. Especially if the BW style of storytelling is not something you particularly like in their games you played.
Maybe it'd be better to do yourself a favor and look for another MMO than SWTOR for your gaming, ArcheAge seems to be more into the direction of sandbox style gameplay.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i have been playing bioware games for a long time and i like the stories they put into the game.
In defense of my precious old-school Final Fantasy games, it wasn't until later games that romance started grabbing game time. FF7 had Cloud all boner-heavy over Aries, but she dies in the first third of the game and nothing happens. After that, it did get cliche every single time.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
you could plug in just about any adventure style movie/story book/anything into that same equation and draw simmaler results. That chart is just a generic story chart. Its the story teling abilitys that draw most people into any form of story telling, not the subject matter. You could easily tie in Harry Potter, Warhammer 40k Dark Heresy, DnD, Star Wars, Star Trek (Kinda iffy but only cus most people start born in the federation, wich is nice and happy except that blond security chick on Next Gen she was from a Rape Planet) even the old clasics to that flow chart and still get the same results. 20k Leagues under the sea, Moby Dick, Red Planet, Star Ship Troopers.
The option is simple if you want to play a roll your face accross the keys game skip the quest and just follow your quest helper to the end of the quest then go play wow or one of its meny clones. But if you want something diffrent that has full voice over interaction story driven plots then waite for SW:TOR cus thats what they have sold us on since the start. If the pop out a game that doesnt diliver that then it is gonna fail boat off the charts, and I will glady come back to these forums and apoligise for being a Biowere fan boi cus I am, I love the way they tell storys. but something tells me thats not gonna have to happen.
Well I guess it depends on what "era" of bioware you are talking about and whether you focus on the companion stories
Baldur's Gate 2 has a quite interesting and fleshed out story that is presented in such a way its not that obvious. KOTOR and ME much less so and they tend to focus on smaller vignettes.
However no Bioware game is ever likely to approach Planescape:Torment in terms of story, but almost no game does. Just the structure of the story itself (and fluid nature of the main character) lends itself to an RPG better than the rather linear way bioware tends to do things.
Well, the best Bioware RPG is no doubt BG2. It is also the game where Bioware did its best storytelling, but they already had a pretty good setting for that. The new games are not that well written in my opinion, if you compare against likes of The Wticher series or PlanetScape: Torment for example. Bioware could have done a lot more with Dragon Age, but ended up with fairly typical high fantasy setting in the end. However, they are still among the best RPGs out there. Even tho they are getting lighter on the RPG aspects more recently.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
The difference between The Witcher 1&2 and Bioware RPG's is it's an established popular series of Novels, CDprojekt has plenty of lore to pull from in what they created, it's not exactly an original story compared to what ME1&2, DA, Jade empire, or even in the manner in which KOTOR, or TOR are. The witcher is actually set in the period of the novels and presents them in VG form, Bioware more or less even in KOTOR created a lot of what is known about this period in time in the SW universe, sans the comic series Tales of the Jedi. WHich they also pulled lore from.
One of Bioware's writers is who established how the rule of two came to be, and it became official canon. This speaks a lot about the quality of writing staff Bioware employs.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And Bioware having the "skills" is where i disagree - or maybe the writers just didn't get the time they needed. Bioware are strangely hit-or-miss with their storytelling. And sometimes, they miss big time.
Someone complained that I said Mass Effect was "bad" - I didn't, I said that ME1 was good despite its flaws, but that ME2 was terrible. As a trilogy, Mass Effect is indeed already ruined because of ME2.
Explaining my reasons would result in a wall of text, so I'll let this guy do the explaing:
Mass Effect 2 Plot Analysis Video
I agree with most of this excellent (and funny ^^) analysis, although there's a little bashing sometimes. It should also show why it's not just a matter of opinion whether storytelling is considered good or not - you may like ME2 regardless, but you can't deny all it's flaws and missed opportunities. Skilled storytelling, this is not.
Hype train -> Reality
i personally thought that KOTOR 1 had a great story and ending and think that if a SW movie was made with that story that it would be one of the better movies.
ME 1 story was pretty good as well.
cant speak for the BG games because i never played them before.
Nope. I don't find them so amazing that i need waste 60 dollars on them. 99% of the choices you make dont even matter. And they're typical stories with typical characters. Nothing to shake a stick at. They're very over rated just like all their games.
Lol at "templar alastair" not only it is alistair but he also wasn't templar xD
Anyways it is right to a degree. As for BW storytelling... they are just way too predictable.
Yes, you're the only one. I don't know how one simple question turned into paragraphs of regurgitated complaints, but I didn't read it. Thanks for posting your question as your subject so those of us with lives didn't have to read all that crap.
Fair enough...not really--but maybe when you haven't anything to do you could give it a read?
There is absolutely nothing special about bioware stories. Games like Dragon Age are the worst type of RPG - completely linear and no room for exploration.
The stories are full of shite stereotypical card board cut out characters.
Just a pile of shite really.
Not looking forward to the steaming pile of crap that is going to be The Old Republic.
I rarely see a movie or play a game where the story amazes me or the twist is cool and makes sense instead of being forced and often redundant. I've played console and pc games for 25 years or so, tabletop games, pnp rpgs etc... I dont get amazed.
I can still enjoy a good story, but amazed? no.
He is not the only one.
BW stories are mediocre at best
They aren't bad tho.
Then again what did you expect when story for DA2 was written by a girl who hated the fact that she has to play the game to see it.
Sorry, but Bioware did not invent the setting for KOTOR or TOR. They just expanded it just like CDproject has done with The Witcher.
Also, my point is not about being original series. I do not really care. I liked Bioware story a lot with the BG series. I liked it less with Neverwinter Nights. KOTOR had a pretty good story albeit felt a bit rushed towards the end. Mass Effect has a pretty interesting, albeit stereotypical, space opera setting, which makes a great backdrop for the story and interesting characters. Dragon Age, being branded as a dark fantasy, simply ends up being a very boring setting. This is of course a matter of opinion, but the Witcher world is far superior as a backdrop heck even Forgotten Realms was more interesting.
I cannot argue much about the quality of writing/story in TOR. We have to wait and see.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."