Maybe it's my EQ origins but i want to need these other players and i want them to need me. I don't want to be joe number 36 who happens to be in the area. If people like that, thats fine but everytime i hear that you can do stuff by yourself and others aren't really needed it just makes me more weary of it.
Valid concern, I'd say.
This is where I think its going to come down to the community to a degree. You've got the freedom to be social or anti-social. What people do with it once they get their hands on it is anyone's guess. I tend to lean slightly more on the anti-social scale, but sometimes I do feel like talking. I feel comfortable knowing I'll be able to play the game, no matter which mood I'm in, but thats just me...
Isn't an MMO supposed to be social? I mean, if you didn't want to be social, why not just play single player RPGs?
No, it's just supposed to have a lot of other people playing at the same time as you. I think you may be confusing chatrooms with MMOs. One is a online social venue, the other is an online game.
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who plays an MMO is there for the group hugs. Sometimes the attraction is simply having a world that is more alive than what one would find in a single player game. In real life, I don't feel compelled to introduce myself to and chat with everyone I come across when I go out to a concert or stop at the pub. Often I'm just there to hear the music of have a drink. However, it's nice that an option is available. Remember, options are good things. You can be a social butterfly or a loner. Why is it necessary that everyone must subscribe to the play style that matches you? (Not you specifically, just in general).
Another reason to prefer MMOs over single player games is the built-in longevity of the game. An MMO experience is meant to be a long, drawn out affair while single player games are usually intended to be short and sweet. It has zero to do with a social aspect, it's just about the amount and variety of content. Single player games can often be finished in a matter of days (and these days, sometimes it just takes a few hours) while an MMO can easily keep you busy for months. That's the difference.
Maybe it's my EQ origins but i want to need these other players and i want them to need me. I don't want to be joe number 36 who happens to be in the area. If people like that, thats fine but everytime i hear that you can do stuff by yourself and others aren't really needed it just makes me more weary of it.
Valid concern, I'd say.
This is where I think its going to come down to the community to a degree. You've got the freedom to be social or anti-social. What people do with it once they get their hands on it is anyone's guess. I tend to lean slightly more on the anti-social scale, but sometimes I do feel like talking. I feel comfortable knowing I'll be able to play the game, no matter which mood I'm in, but thats just me...
Isn't an MMO supposed to be social? I mean, if you didn't want to be .social, why not just play single player RPGs?
No, it's just supposed to have a lot of other people playing at the same time as you. I think you may be confusing chatrooms with MMOs. One is a online social venue, the other is an online game.
I think the purpose of the onine game is to have people working together. That is what gives it the online "world" appeal. Sure there are anti-social people like in the real world (me being one of them), but I don't plan on accomplishing as much as my wife (the social type in games) because she accomplishes the group content. As long as people understand that then it is okay to be antisocial. I just get upset when soloers want to have the same opportunities as the groupers. Just like in the real world, you can't accomplish as much by yourself.....though I do like solo content to be there.
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who plays an MMO is there for the group hugs. Sometimes the attraction is simply having a world that is more alive than what one would find in a single player game. In real life, I don't feel compelled to introduce myself to and chat with everyone I come across when I go out to a concert or stop at the pub. Often I'm just there to hear the music of have a drink. However, it's nice that an option is available. Remember, options are good things. You can be a social butterfly or a loner. Why is it necessary that everyone must subscribe to the play style that matches you? (Not you specifically, just in general).
You might want to consider a co-op game instead? That might be more to your liking.
Another reason to prefer MMOs over single player games is the built-in longevity of the game. An MMO experience is meant to be a long, drawn out affair while single player games are usually intended to be short and sweet. It has zero to do with a social aspect, it's just about the amount and variety of content. Single player games can often be finished in a matter of days (and these days, sometimes it just takes a few hours) while an MMO can easily keep you busy for months. That's the difference.
Your anaology is bad, in gaming terms or mmo terms it would be more like going to a pub sitting at a table with 3 other people and then not actually talking to them. which would be like group questing in current mmo's.
Hell even the king wow is the worst for it now with the DF tool, people hardly talk, hardly type, its just get in, kill the damn thing then get out and move to the next dungeon.
I hate to say it but mmo's are starting to play more like solo single player games now, sure other avatars are running about but they could just as well be AI since you never bloody talk to them.
I also want an mmo where you NEED to talk to others, where instances need planning, forcing groups to talk, where instances change all the time preventing groups form learning all its moves and then just sitting in quiet going through the motions.
I think its like flying mounts , they sound amazing until their added and then you really see the downsides, or like the dungeon finder, it sounds amazing until its added and then you see the endless zombies sitting in a city just not interacting , waiting on the DF tool to proc, these are not mmo's and their the reason I dont play wow.
I want an mmo where the world not only feels alive, but where people talk, meet, have conversations, form relations via guild or clan , fall out, fall in, make war, set non aggretion pacts the whole nine yards.
I believe all of your points, with the exception of harsh death penalty will be in...
Crafting is not much different from WoW and yeah you can get armor from mobs (this is not GW1, you do not need to get materias so someone else creat an armor for you)
"It has potential" -Second most used phrase on existence "It sucks" -Most used phrase on existence
The only point of this post is to get even more excited for the game. I've been waiting for a game like this forever. My history of MMO's starts with Everquest 2 and Asherons call. I played those two for years and they'll always hold a special place in my heart.
[...]
Thanks for listening. I'm just excited once again!
I didnt read all your post sorry. Just wanted to tell you, even if GW2 looks really good, the first thing to get dissapointed with a game if to get too hyped / excited for too long. If you like what you know about GW2 and want to enjoy it, in my opinion is better to calm down and wait to play it before getting hyped so much. But this is just my opinion.
wow, had to edit. Apparently posting from an iphone just gives you a "the giant wall of text"!
You can use < p> < /p> to paragraph your wall of text from iOS (without the blank spaces)
I think your list is catered in GW2 except fear of dying. The death penalty is very mild in GW2. Though they've circumvented it somewhat with a "Downed State"; energy pots to spam to help weaker players etc but also you can always challenge yourself with higher level mobs too if you ARE finding the mobs too easy at the expected level range that the story guides you along. So I am not sure there will be much "FEAR" of dying which I also like a lot in mmo but replaced with actiony combat and options and range of skill to be employed to practice finishing off mobs. I think according to GW players the AI of the mobs will be decent too so that again helps with the cost of dying being reduced?
I believe you should be clear about what type of pots you can spam, people don't like health pots I believe.
EDIT: By the way, I got a chance to play the demo at PAX last year, and should be able to again this year. While forty minutes wasn't nearly enough time to judge much of anything, I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them. Certainly I could have whispered and tried to formalize a group, but it wasn't really necessary. We'd play through a DE together, then go our separate ways to find other DE's, and end up casually playing with other people in the area.
This is what scares me. If I have any doubts about the game it is this and the lack of a trinity. Like someone else stated, I play the game to be social with people. I like filling a role....(normally a healer) in a group. I also can't imagine doing a major event in the game that required no coordination or communication. I play MMO's for that simple reason. I play them to experience things with a group of people. If I don't have to communicate or I don't need to communicate and there aren't predefined roles for people to fill, then I just fail to see how the community will develop. I got the same feeling for GW1. It was an alright game, but I really didn't need anyone and found that since everyone could really accomplish things on their own, there wasn't the same kind of community in the game or at least that I look for at any rate. I know you "can" communicate....but if there isn't a need it just doesn't seem to develop.
EDIT: By the way, I got a chance to play the demo at PAX last year, and should be able to again this year. While forty minutes wasn't nearly enough time to judge much of anything, I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them. Certainly I could have whispered and tried to formalize a group, but it wasn't really necessary. We'd play through a DE together, then go our separate ways to find other DE's, and end up casually playing with other people in the area.
This is what scares me. If I have any doubts about the game it is this and the lack of a trinity. Like someone else stated, I play the game to be social with people. I like filling a role....(normally a healer) in a group. I also can't imagine doing a major event in the game that required no coordination or communication. I play MMO's for that simple reason. I play them to experience things with a group of people. If I don't have to communicate or I don't need to communicate and there aren't predefined roles for people to fill, then I just fail to see how the community will develop. I got the same feeling for GW1. It was an alright game, but I really didn't need anyone and found that since everyone could really accomplish things on their own, there wasn't the same kind of community in the game or at least that I look for at any rate. I know you "can" communicate....but if there isn't a need it just doesn't seem to develop.
I have and I am not impressed. I still have the same reservations. Not that I don't like a lot of what GW2 is doing,,,,, I just don't like these aspects of it. I don't really like the idea of a soft trinity. It really seems like combat will be much more zerg like.....and I really hate the idea of random groupings or "soft groups" for the DE's. Just not my cup of tea I think though I will try it just like I will SWTOR .
guild wars is a very social game. if someone is a total screwup, then the other players will let you know it. believe it or not, the door swings both ways. if you know what you are doing and is good at it, again, the other players will let you know. people dont have to verbarly (by text of course) say anything. players talk to each other by the way they play their character. all one has to do is watch the use of the skills on a player's bar. there are only 8, but you only should have to watch for 4 - 5 of them to see if they are decent skills. at the same time, you watch how the player is using those skills, and who are they using them on. for anyone not familar with guild wars or didn't play it very long, all this watching may seem like time consuming or just a total waste of time. but in actuality, it all takes mere seconds for the experienced player.
i too am a casual player and this is from my experience while playing in the competitive missions as i prefer to play with and against other people. i do not revisit the explorable areas of the game after i visited them already. i feel that the inclusions of heros and henchmen have truely destroyed the interaction of people within the game. sure they were added to address the solo player option, it was just the wrong way to go about it. but considering the game's limitations, mainly heavily instance, i guess there was just no other way. but with the way guild wars 2 is being designed, i can see myself spending a lot more time in the explorable areas of game since i will be able to run into other people. and from the looks of it, i'll still be able to look at a player and see if they will be someone i would want to group with later on. whether they see in a fight with a mob and decide to help out, or vise versa. "thanks for saving my ass. i owe you one." <--- that's where it starts. where it goes from there is anybody's guess. "you look like you can handle youself in a fight. you just saved me after all. my group is about to tackle this dungeon and we're a man/woman short. do you want to come along?"
I have and I am not impressed. I still have the same reservations. Not that I don't like a lot of what GW2 is doing,,,,, I just don't like these aspects of it. I don't really like the idea of a soft trinity. It really seems like combat will be much more zerg like.....and I really hate the idea of random groupings or "soft groups" for the DE's. Just not my cup of tea I think though I will try it just like I will SWTOR .
Well I guess that's your opinion and it will remain the same until you actually play the game, when it finally releases. By then ANet will have another GW2 convert. ^_^
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
^^this
You can revive a player, buff them, use cross combo professions....and more to see. Yet there are some folks thinking that typing is more imersive than actually be helpfull? i rather see players actions instead what they have to say
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
I thought that rather easy to understand. We're not completely free of context here, he's putting his experience of GW2 in relation to the expectations we all have based on our history with MMOs.
Given how most of the MMOs we know rely on "type-text-in-a-box" as well as "build-a-formalized-group-or-GTFO" before they allow any real interaction, his statement that GW2's design does away with those limitations is just confirming that what the devs promised about the cooperative design of GW2 is actually true.
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
I thought that rather easy to understand. We're not completely free of context here, he's putting his experience of GW2 in relation to the expectations we all have based on our history with MMOs.
Given how most of the MMOs we know rely on "type-text-in-a-box" as well as "build-a-formalized-group-or-GTFO" before they allow any real interaction, his statement that GW2's design does away with those limitations is just confirming that what the devs promised about the cooperative design of GW2 is actually true.
I was just commenting on his use of words - and that, in his opinion, grouping and playing with a team does not involve any "interaction". Those who quoted him furthered that idea, suggesting that merely playing together with others (without typing in a chat box) isn't actually "interaction". My response to that was simply: WTF?!?
Personally, I'm glad that they're removing all the administrative overhead typically required in MMORPGs for group play. I think that this will increase interaction instead of reducing it.
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
I think you just put into words what I was probably going to get to. But yea, communication through words isn't the only form of interaction. You're helping one another accomplish a goal without the need to speak and you're saving each other's arses by simply rezing one another or healing one another.
I have and I am not impressed. I still have the same reservations. Not that I don't like a lot of what GW2 is doing,,,,, I just don't like these aspects of it. I don't really like the idea of a soft trinity. It really seems like combat will be much more zerg like.....and I really hate the idea of random groupings or "soft groups" for the DE's. Just not my cup of tea I think though I will try it just like I will SWTOR .
About Soft DEs
I guess I just don't understand what your dislike is about. There are aspects of the game that require groups and there are aspects that do not, hating on one aspect or the other just seems weird to me considering you already have what you seek. It isn't like they said you can't make a group to go hunt down dynamic events, they've just said you won't NEED to.
So I guess my question is; why would you want them to force people to form groups for something that is supposed to be accessible to the introvert player as well as the extrovert player?
About Soft Trinity
The first thing you should remember is that this game is built from the ground up as ITS OWN TYPE OF MMO. Its not copying WoW, its not anything like EQ and its not even like GW1. GW2 is its own game, therefore the method to which you use to determine whether combat may or may not be a zerg is flawed. Given, its the only way you know how to measure it but the fact remains that you shouldn't look at it from that point of view.
Instead look at it like this; I'm a Warrior, I have two weapon sets that allow me to control the enemy (read: blind, interrupt, all that good stuff) and one for DPS. I'm a given role at a given time and all I need to do is swap my weapon to support my team or do dps. If I was to stay in one role, let's say dps for example, I wouldn't be able to stop the enemy from healing their damage back up and that would just take me back to square one. So in order to be efficient at taking down my enemy, I'll have to swap weapon sets, stop them from healing (interrupt), stop them from running (cripple), stop them from dodging (cripple) whilst also dealing out my own damage when I see the opportunity. Combat isn't a one track mind, get in, do dps and get out, its about using your skills at the most opportune moments and using them well. The fact remains that you can't be all roles at one time, you still have to pick and choose which one to be at a given time but you have access to all of them. This means there is still decision making, there is still tactics being planned out and with this system you have the ability to make the tactics work whilst also adapting to the situation as it changes around you.
The only time a zerg occurs is when you don't give the player the tools to be more than what they are and GW2 definitely gives the player those tools.
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
I think you just put into words what I was probably going to get to. But yea, communication through words isn't the only form of interaction. You're helping one another accomplish a goal without the need to speak and you're saving each other's arses by simply rezing one another or healing one another.
Exactly. The vast majority of human communcation happens without words - but through looks, body language, and most importantly: actions.
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
I think you just put into words what I was probably going to get to. But yea, communication through words isn't the only form of interaction. You're helping one another accomplish a goal without the need to speak and you're saving each other's arses by simply rezing one another or healing one another.
Exactly. The vast majority of human communcation happens without words - but through looks, body language, and most importantly: actions.
I somehow doubt you can get your characters to look head long into the distance or look dreamy into someone eyes. second sure body language is cool but we are talking about emotes here. You could mock mimic it but i'd still like the other person to use words and talk otherwise i feel like i'm looking at an avatar rather then a person. Emotes and prerendered images of people only do so much
As for actions unless you mean things like ninja looting and pulling trians or doing their job well, that can tell what type of person they are (good or bad) but it hardly tells me the little nuisances like what they do in their day to day lives or what they like. How does pulling a mob tell me whether they are a football or baseball fan, where they go on their days off. There are certain things that make people closer that doesn't relate around the avatar but what people say.
I never got close to the avatar i got close to the person behind avatar, the avatar was just a representation of the player.
Yes there are things that can give you key tells about a person behavior when they are in a game, but that then i have heard people do some nasty stuff in game because they could, but would never do that in real life. If i just took their character at face value then i'd get a whole different picture from what they are.
Avatars to me are like the outside of the booki (the cover if you will) the action the pages, it's until you fill those pages with words do i understand the rest of your character.
I think there are two parts to interacting the literal which is to say you can cast a spell and your friend can interact with what you did by firing an arrow through it to cause it to catch fire.
Then you got interacting on a social level which comes down to everything to what they like to how the play the game to where their prioties are.
If noone talked in the real world and just did body langauge it would be a pretty dull place. Go to a bar once, you'll hear tons of people talking it makes it much more lively then if everyone was silent.
Speaking (or in this case typing) is as important as everything else a person does. In and out of a game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
I think you just put into words what I was probably going to get to. But yea, communication through words isn't the only form of interaction. You're helping one another accomplish a goal without the need to speak and you're saving each other's arses by simply rezing one another or healing one another.
Exactly. The vast majority of human communcation happens without words - but through looks, body language, and most importantly: actions.
I somehow doubt you can get your characters to look head long into the distance or look dreamy into someone eyes. second sure body language is cool but we are talking about emotes here. You could mock mimic it but i'd still like the other person to use words and talk otherwise i feel like i'm looking at an avatar rather then a person. Emotes and prerendered images of people only do so much
As for actions unless you mean things like ninja looting and pulling trians or doing their job well, that can tell what type of person they are (good or bad) but it hardly tells me the little nuisances like what they do in their day to day lives or what they like. How does pulling a mob tell me whether they are a football or baseball fan, where they go on their days off. There are certain things that make people closer that doesn't relate around the avatar but what people say.
I never got close to the avatar i got close to the person behind avatar, the avatar was just a representation of the player.
Yes there are things that can give you key tells about a person behavior when they are in a game, but that then i have heard people do some nasty stuff in game because they could, but would never do that in real life. If i just took their character at face value then i'd get a whole different picture from what they are.
Avatars to me are like the outside of the booki (the cover if you will) the action the pages, it's until you fill those pages with words do i understand the rest of your character.
I think there are two parts to interacting the literal which is to say you can cast a spell and your friend can interact with what you did by firing an arrow through it to cause it to catch fire.
Then you got interacting on a social level which comes down to everything to what they like to how the play the game to where their prioties are.
If noone talked in the real world and just did body langauge it would be a pretty dull place. Go to a bar once, you'll hear tons of people talking it makes it much more lively then if everyone was silent.
Speaking (or in this case typing) is as important as everything else a person does. In and out of a game.
He just says that people communicate on more levels then just through speech. He wasnt claiming that you learn to know a person very well just through their actions (on a side note: speech can even confuse things in this matter).
If you like to socialise with other players in a game, then I am positive that you will be able to find likeminded people. The gamedesign doesn't specifically have to cater to it, just has to support it through functions that makes it possible. There will be chatchannels and ways to group and have guilds.
I was just commenting on his use of words - and that, in his opinion, grouping and playing with a team does not involve any "interaction". Those who quoted him furthered that idea, suggesting that merely playing together with others (without typing in a chat box) isn't actually "interaction". My response to that was simply: WTF?!?
Personally, I'm glad that they're removing all the administrative overhead typically required in MMORPGs for group play. I think that this will increase interaction instead of reducing it.
I was trying to tell you that you're likely misreading him and his opinion.
It is not his opinion that grouping doesn't involve interaction!
He confirmed that in GW2 you can play with a group (interact) without the need to interact with the interface to build a formalized group or excessive negotiation in chat. In laymans terms, in GW2 you can "group" with somebody simply by participating in the same event, and continue doing what you're doing. You will interact with each other naturally. You don't need to right-click ->invite to group, sort out who does what, manage loot distribution etc.
He is talking specifically about UI mechanics, not about social gameplay. This whole discussion about non-verbal communication is interesting, but its completely beside the point of his comment.
If no words are spoken between players and lets be honest how many MMOers (recent onces) actually talk unless need be? if they don't have to then they wont.
Granted i can seek out a guild if i want, i can do that in any game so thats kind moot. I'm looking at core features themselves and seeing if they promote a more interactive community or if they promote a community that will do tasks at hand. I know it's me and wanting reliance on others but darn it that is what i felt made EQ and the like so great. That reliance on others.
This is going to turn into that one thread about solo vs group thread but i still feel you need to rely on others, when you rely on others you tend to talk more if you don't rely on each other and can simply get the job done regardless if others are there or not, it makes me a bit disheartened.
I know it's just my concern but everything from not needing others to go underwater to the scaling thing to being able to group up without so much as a word or request to group passed with each other, to everyone being able to craft everything. It just feels like it's saying okay we know you don't like other people...Good thing you dont have to here, you can be as antisocial and still succeed at our game because we won't push against the tide, we won't make you want to interact with anybody.
It just feels all too much like the other people are very intellengent (in some cases) NPCs rather then other players. Because we do have to face some truths when your out hunting for a quest in games like Allods how often do people talk together? Heck they barely talk in a group let alone if they can accomplish things without you.
There will be people talking in the game that i'm sure of and there may be a few guilds (what they would be needed for i don't know) and it's nice that the DE scale to make things harder but everything thrown together is just them giving a defeatist attitude towards trying to form a community and saying, well it's not possible to get this lot to talk to each other so we'll just let them do their own thing, we won't stop them if they just want to avoid the community all together.
Btw the list of things i'm talking about are these.
DE scaling,
No underwater breath
no need to actual formal gorup therefore no need to interact with others, pop in do some damage get rewarded walk out
Crafting is designed so eventually you'll have everything maxed out.
Very light DP (lighter then most) die then just run back. no armor lost no xp lost
Instant teleport
Frankly i'm really hoping i'm wrong about this but after playing GW1 for quite a while that is exactly what i saw and it just made me completely disinterested in the game. The only things i can see really building community is the dungeons and the mist, that is hardly the lions share of the game though.
It's my personal opinon the game does't come off casual friendly more like solo friendly, with very limited need to rely on others.
Btw if your curious yes i do indeed have this same issue with SW:TOR with the personal quest it just makes too much of the game soloable and i don't like that. I can deal with it though because most of the game from the world bosses to the group quests to crafting require others. This game however seems to go a bit too far the wrong way IMO, like i stated if you like this sort of thing where you can talk only when you want to, drag and drop grouping and al thats fine but i don't personally.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
There will be people talking in the game that i'm sure of and there may be a few guilds (what they would be needed for i don't know) and it's nice that the DE scale to make things harder but everything thrown together is just them giving a defeatist attitude towards trying to form a community and saying, well it's not possible to get this lot to talk to each other so we'll just let them do their own thing, we won't stop them if they just want to avoid the community all together.
To me this shows your core issue with the mechanics in the upcoming games. Why do you think that the developers are trying to make players talk to each other? And that it is a defeatists attitude if they stop trying?
Wouldnt it make more sense if the developers would just let players decide for themselves in how they want to play a MMO? And just create UI mechanics to facilitate different playing styles as best as possible? I think that this approach is more difficult to realise then forced grouping. Hardly a defeatists attitude.
If you respect other player's playstyle, then it would be a contradiction to design the game to enforce grouping or other certain kinds of player interaction. As if you say ' Yeah sure, I respect you want to solo, as long as you solo in my group.'
To me it seems you show a defeatist's attitude if you expect the game to force grouping instead of setting out yourself to find likeminded players.
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
I think you just put into words what I was probably going to get to. But yea, communication through words isn't the only form of interaction. You're helping one another accomplish a goal without the need to speak and you're saving each other's arses by simply rezing one another or healing one another.
Exactly. The vast majority of human communcation happens without words - but through looks, body language, and most importantly: actions.
I somehow doubt you can get your characters to look head long into the distance or look dreamy into someone eyes. second sure body language is cool but we are talking about emotes here. You could mock mimic it but i'd still like the other person to use words and talk otherwise i feel like i'm looking at an avatar rather then a person. Emotes and prerendered images of people only do so much
As for actions unless you mean things like ninja looting and pulling trians or doing their job well, that can tell what type of person they are (good or bad) but it hardly tells me the little nuisances like what they do in their day to day lives or what they like. How does pulling a mob tell me whether they are a football or baseball fan, where they go on their days off. There are certain things that make people closer that doesn't relate around the avatar but what people say.
I never got close to the avatar i got close to the person behind avatar, the avatar was just a representation of the player.
Yes there are things that can give you key tells about a person behavior when they are in a game, but that then i have heard people do some nasty stuff in game because they could, but would never do that in real life. If i just took their character at face value then i'd get a whole different picture from what they are.
Avatars to me are like the outside of the booki (the cover if you will) the action the pages, it's until you fill those pages with words do i understand the rest of your character.
I think there are two parts to interacting the literal which is to say you can cast a spell and your friend can interact with what you did by firing an arrow through it to cause it to catch fire.
Then you got interacting on a social level which comes down to everything to what they like to how the play the game to where their prioties are.
If noone talked in the real world and just did body langauge it would be a pretty dull place. Go to a bar once, you'll hear tons of people talking it makes it much more lively then if everyone was silent.
Speaking (or in this case typing) is as important as everything else a person does. In and out of a game.
It seems to me that what you need is a chat channel, a guild and a group of friends. Some of which, I believe, the game provides and some you already have.
The direction GW2 is taking is quite simple really, the more you see the same person as you do different DE's, the more likely you are to communicate and go exploring together naturally. The more you rez people, heal people, take damage for people, the more you form a bond and are more likely to communicate through words and that can also lead to forming a group. It has happened to me several times in many games that don't even have DE's so I think grouping will occur without it being forced. You just have to be a good person and a good player.
Never said i wouldn't seek out like minded people. Me voicing my opinoin on how i dislike that feature is me fighting which is in direct opisition to defeatism.
If i was a defeatist i would have been saying things like this.
Well since the game doens't feature group activities I can't find other people and therefore it's pointless to even try and talk to others or even group up.
However that isn't what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that the features the game is showing will make this task a lot harder then it should because what normally bonds communities is when people need each other and they get talking during those tasks. Everytime someone doesn't need to do something they generally don't.
yes i can find a guild, but i'd like the game to encourage grouping and actual interaction. It just seems to me that they'd prefer everyone to just work on their own thing. It's almost like a philosphy that they don't want to make you do anything.
Don't want to group sure we got content here for you
Don't want to talk? Great cause you don't have to
Don't want to even see other people. Great we have a whole section of the town just for you.
I haven't followed the game a lot but this is the general feel of the game. Nothing makes me want to group with others. Loot, well loot as per fans say it's pretty pointless beyond looks.
xp? well thats pretty easily gained
Theres no raids so no need there.
Once i've killed the shattering once the experience is over.
Yes this is a rant but it's the core problem i have with this game, it seems like they are treating players (per features) as indivusuals that happen to share the world with others rather then cogs in a machine that need to work together to get a job done.
Now the actual question.
How much of this game actually requires people to work together to accomplish something...not get better rewards but to actually accomplish the task at hand? I know as it's not out yet and things can change that this figure is not completely accurate. But how often when i go out into this world will i say, you know what i think i need john with me today because i need X?
For the MMo world there needs to be a certain amount of need.
What made SWG so great imo is the need on other classes to succeed, what made EQ so memorable, the need on others to accomplish something, The monk to pull the warrior to tank the cleric to heal.
If you keep taking away the need for other people you take away the community network and it turns into a chat room...Not saying that is in this case.
I wish to close that it's entirely possible this isn't going to be the case...but it was in GW1 for me as i tried and tried to actual get into the community and got several tells that there wasn't a point to it really. I know two different games, same philosphy though at least from what i've seen.
Like my question (as i feel it will get lost) states how much of this game actual requires you to interact with the community? Do they treat players as part of a whole or just X person happens to be in the area so you'll get a bit more rewards at the end?
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
No, it's just supposed to have a lot of other people playing at the same time as you. I think you may be confusing chatrooms with MMOs. One is a online social venue, the other is an online game.
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who plays an MMO is there for the group hugs. Sometimes the attraction is simply having a world that is more alive than what one would find in a single player game. In real life, I don't feel compelled to introduce myself to and chat with everyone I come across when I go out to a concert or stop at the pub. Often I'm just there to hear the music of have a drink. However, it's nice that an option is available. Remember, options are good things. You can be a social butterfly or a loner. Why is it necessary that everyone must subscribe to the play style that matches you? (Not you specifically, just in general).
Another reason to prefer MMOs over single player games is the built-in longevity of the game. An MMO experience is meant to be a long, drawn out affair while single player games are usually intended to be short and sweet. It has zero to do with a social aspect, it's just about the amount and variety of content. Single player games can often be finished in a matter of days (and these days, sometimes it just takes a few hours) while an MMO can easily keep you busy for months. That's the difference.
Your anaology is bad, in gaming terms or mmo terms it would be more like going to a pub sitting at a table with 3 other people and then not actually talking to them. which would be like group questing in current mmo's.
Hell even the king wow is the worst for it now with the DF tool, people hardly talk, hardly type, its just get in, kill the damn thing then get out and move to the next dungeon.
I hate to say it but mmo's are starting to play more like solo single player games now, sure other avatars are running about but they could just as well be AI since you never bloody talk to them.
I also want an mmo where you NEED to talk to others, where instances need planning, forcing groups to talk, where instances change all the time preventing groups form learning all its moves and then just sitting in quiet going through the motions.
I think its like flying mounts , they sound amazing until their added and then you really see the downsides, or like the dungeon finder, it sounds amazing until its added and then you see the endless zombies sitting in a city just not interacting , waiting on the DF tool to proc, these are not mmo's and their the reason I dont play wow.
I want an mmo where the world not only feels alive, but where people talk, meet, have conversations, form relations via guild or clan , fall out, fall in, make war, set non aggretion pacts the whole nine yards.
I believe all of your points, with the exception of harsh death penalty will be in...
Crafting is not much different from WoW and yeah you can get armor from mobs (this is not GW1, you do not need to get materias so someone else creat an armor for you)
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
I didnt read all your post sorry. Just wanted to tell you, even if GW2 looks really good, the first thing to get dissapointed with a game if to get too hyped / excited for too long. If you like what you know about GW2 and want to enjoy it, in my opinion is better to calm down and wait to play it before getting hyped so much. But this is just my opinion.
I believe you should be clear about what type of pots you can spam, people don't like health pots I believe.
This is not a game.
Read these.
http://www.massiveonlinegamer.com/previews/1263-guild-wars-2-media-day-wrap-up-part-1
http://www.massiveonlinegamer.com/pr...wrap-up-part-2
@ Dvalon
I believe you should read those ^ too.
This is not a game.
I have and I am not impressed. I still have the same reservations. Not that I don't like a lot of what GW2 is doing,,,,, I just don't like these aspects of it. I don't really like the idea of a soft trinity. It really seems like combat will be much more zerg like.....and I really hate the idea of random groupings or "soft groups" for the DE's. Just not my cup of tea I think though I will try it just like I will SWTOR .
guild wars is a very social game. if someone is a total screwup, then the other players will let you know it. believe it or not, the door swings both ways. if you know what you are doing and is good at it, again, the other players will let you know. people dont have to verbarly (by text of course) say anything. players talk to each other by the way they play their character. all one has to do is watch the use of the skills on a player's bar. there are only 8, but you only should have to watch for 4 - 5 of them to see if they are decent skills. at the same time, you watch how the player is using those skills, and who are they using them on. for anyone not familar with guild wars or didn't play it very long, all this watching may seem like time consuming or just a total waste of time. but in actuality, it all takes mere seconds for the experienced player.
i too am a casual player and this is from my experience while playing in the competitive missions as i prefer to play with and against other people. i do not revisit the explorable areas of the game after i visited them already. i feel that the inclusions of heros and henchmen have truely destroyed the interaction of people within the game. sure they were added to address the solo player option, it was just the wrong way to go about it. but considering the game's limitations, mainly heavily instance, i guess there was just no other way. but with the way guild wars 2 is being designed, i can see myself spending a lot more time in the explorable areas of game since i will be able to run into other people. and from the looks of it, i'll still be able to look at a player and see if they will be someone i would want to group with later on. whether they see in a fight with a mob and decide to help out, or vise versa. "thanks for saving my ass. i owe you one." <--- that's where it starts. where it goes from there is anybody's guess. "you look like you can handle youself in a fight. you just saved me after all. my group is about to tackle this dungeon and we're a man/woman short. do you want to come along?"
Well I guess that's your opinion and it will remain the same until you actually play the game, when it finally releases. By then ANet will have another GW2 convert. ^_^
"I CAN confirm that the casual, cooperative group play aspect works. I was able to play with players, without really having to interact with them."
To be honest, I don't even know what this kind of statement means.
If you are playing with other people, following their cues, making up for their shortfalls, stacking abilities, saving each other in a time of need, helping each other out, etc.... then you ARE interacting with them. That's part of the the definition of "interacting".
I think it's a bit silly to restricted the term "interacting" to the basic act of typing text into a chat box. Interacting with others goes beyond that.
Idd.
Fist-Face with other people is interaction and needs no further words to understand it
^^this
You can revive a player, buff them, use cross combo professions....and more to see. Yet there are some folks thinking that typing is more imersive than actually be helpfull? i rather see players actions instead what they have to say
I thought that rather easy to understand. We're not completely free of context here, he's putting his experience of GW2 in relation to the expectations we all have based on our history with MMOs.
Given how most of the MMOs we know rely on "type-text-in-a-box" as well as "build-a-formalized-group-or-GTFO" before they allow any real interaction, his statement that GW2's design does away with those limitations is just confirming that what the devs promised about the cooperative design of GW2 is actually true.
I was just commenting on his use of words - and that, in his opinion, grouping and playing with a team does not involve any "interaction". Those who quoted him furthered that idea, suggesting that merely playing together with others (without typing in a chat box) isn't actually "interaction". My response to that was simply: WTF?!?
Personally, I'm glad that they're removing all the administrative overhead typically required in MMORPGs for group play. I think that this will increase interaction instead of reducing it.
I think you just put into words what I was probably going to get to. But yea, communication through words isn't the only form of interaction. You're helping one another accomplish a goal without the need to speak and you're saving each other's arses by simply rezing one another or healing one another.
This is not a game.
About Soft DEs
I guess I just don't understand what your dislike is about. There are aspects of the game that require groups and there are aspects that do not, hating on one aspect or the other just seems weird to me considering you already have what you seek. It isn't like they said you can't make a group to go hunt down dynamic events, they've just said you won't NEED to.
So I guess my question is; why would you want them to force people to form groups for something that is supposed to be accessible to the introvert player as well as the extrovert player?
About Soft Trinity
The first thing you should remember is that this game is built from the ground up as ITS OWN TYPE OF MMO. Its not copying WoW, its not anything like EQ and its not even like GW1. GW2 is its own game, therefore the method to which you use to determine whether combat may or may not be a zerg is flawed. Given, its the only way you know how to measure it but the fact remains that you shouldn't look at it from that point of view.
Instead look at it like this; I'm a Warrior, I have two weapon sets that allow me to control the enemy (read: blind, interrupt, all that good stuff) and one for DPS. I'm a given role at a given time and all I need to do is swap my weapon to support my team or do dps. If I was to stay in one role, let's say dps for example, I wouldn't be able to stop the enemy from healing their damage back up and that would just take me back to square one. So in order to be efficient at taking down my enemy, I'll have to swap weapon sets, stop them from healing (interrupt), stop them from running (cripple), stop them from dodging (cripple) whilst also dealing out my own damage when I see the opportunity. Combat isn't a one track mind, get in, do dps and get out, its about using your skills at the most opportune moments and using them well. The fact remains that you can't be all roles at one time, you still have to pick and choose which one to be at a given time but you have access to all of them. This means there is still decision making, there is still tactics being planned out and with this system you have the ability to make the tactics work whilst also adapting to the situation as it changes around you.
The only time a zerg occurs is when you don't give the player the tools to be more than what they are and GW2 definitely gives the player those tools.
This is not a game.
Exactly. The vast majority of human communcation happens without words - but through looks, body language, and most importantly: actions.
I somehow doubt you can get your characters to look head long into the distance or look dreamy into someone eyes. second sure body language is cool but we are talking about emotes here. You could mock mimic it but i'd still like the other person to use words and talk otherwise i feel like i'm looking at an avatar rather then a person. Emotes and prerendered images of people only do so much
As for actions unless you mean things like ninja looting and pulling trians or doing their job well, that can tell what type of person they are (good or bad) but it hardly tells me the little nuisances like what they do in their day to day lives or what they like. How does pulling a mob tell me whether they are a football or baseball fan, where they go on their days off. There are certain things that make people closer that doesn't relate around the avatar but what people say.
I never got close to the avatar i got close to the person behind avatar, the avatar was just a representation of the player.
Yes there are things that can give you key tells about a person behavior when they are in a game, but that then i have heard people do some nasty stuff in game because they could, but would never do that in real life. If i just took their character at face value then i'd get a whole different picture from what they are.
Avatars to me are like the outside of the booki (the cover if you will) the action the pages, it's until you fill those pages with words do i understand the rest of your character.
I think there are two parts to interacting the literal which is to say you can cast a spell and your friend can interact with what you did by firing an arrow through it to cause it to catch fire.
Then you got interacting on a social level which comes down to everything to what they like to how the play the game to where their prioties are.
If noone talked in the real world and just did body langauge it would be a pretty dull place. Go to a bar once, you'll hear tons of people talking it makes it much more lively then if everyone was silent.
Speaking (or in this case typing) is as important as everything else a person does. In and out of a game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
He just says that people communicate on more levels then just through speech. He wasnt claiming that you learn to know a person very well just through their actions (on a side note: speech can even confuse things in this matter).
If you like to socialise with other players in a game, then I am positive that you will be able to find likeminded people. The gamedesign doesn't specifically have to cater to it, just has to support it through functions that makes it possible. There will be chatchannels and ways to group and have guilds.
I was trying to tell you that you're likely misreading him and his opinion.
It is not his opinion that grouping doesn't involve interaction!
He confirmed that in GW2 you can play with a group (interact) without the need to interact with the interface to build a formalized group or excessive negotiation in chat. In laymans terms, in GW2 you can "group" with somebody simply by participating in the same event, and continue doing what you're doing. You will interact with each other naturally. You don't need to right-click ->invite to group, sort out who does what, manage loot distribution etc.
He is talking specifically about UI mechanics, not about social gameplay. This whole discussion about non-verbal communication is interesting, but its completely beside the point of his comment.
If no words are spoken between players and lets be honest how many MMOers (recent onces) actually talk unless need be? if they don't have to then they wont.
Granted i can seek out a guild if i want, i can do that in any game so thats kind moot. I'm looking at core features themselves and seeing if they promote a more interactive community or if they promote a community that will do tasks at hand. I know it's me and wanting reliance on others but darn it that is what i felt made EQ and the like so great. That reliance on others.
This is going to turn into that one thread about solo vs group thread but i still feel you need to rely on others, when you rely on others you tend to talk more if you don't rely on each other and can simply get the job done regardless if others are there or not, it makes me a bit disheartened.
I know it's just my concern but everything from not needing others to go underwater to the scaling thing to being able to group up without so much as a word or request to group passed with each other, to everyone being able to craft everything. It just feels like it's saying okay we know you don't like other people...Good thing you dont have to here, you can be as antisocial and still succeed at our game because we won't push against the tide, we won't make you want to interact with anybody.
It just feels all too much like the other people are very intellengent (in some cases) NPCs rather then other players. Because we do have to face some truths when your out hunting for a quest in games like Allods how often do people talk together? Heck they barely talk in a group let alone if they can accomplish things without you.
There will be people talking in the game that i'm sure of and there may be a few guilds (what they would be needed for i don't know) and it's nice that the DE scale to make things harder but everything thrown together is just them giving a defeatist attitude towards trying to form a community and saying, well it's not possible to get this lot to talk to each other so we'll just let them do their own thing, we won't stop them if they just want to avoid the community all together.
Btw the list of things i'm talking about are these.
DE scaling,
No underwater breath
no need to actual formal gorup therefore no need to interact with others, pop in do some damage get rewarded walk out
Crafting is designed so eventually you'll have everything maxed out.
Very light DP (lighter then most) die then just run back. no armor lost no xp lost
Instant teleport
Frankly i'm really hoping i'm wrong about this but after playing GW1 for quite a while that is exactly what i saw and it just made me completely disinterested in the game. The only things i can see really building community is the dungeons and the mist, that is hardly the lions share of the game though.
It's my personal opinon the game does't come off casual friendly more like solo friendly, with very limited need to rely on others.
Btw if your curious yes i do indeed have this same issue with SW:TOR with the personal quest it just makes too much of the game soloable and i don't like that. I can deal with it though because most of the game from the world bosses to the group quests to crafting require others. This game however seems to go a bit too far the wrong way IMO, like i stated if you like this sort of thing where you can talk only when you want to, drag and drop grouping and al thats fine but i don't personally.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
To me this shows your core issue with the mechanics in the upcoming games. Why do you think that the developers are trying to make players talk to each other? And that it is a defeatists attitude if they stop trying?
Wouldnt it make more sense if the developers would just let players decide for themselves in how they want to play a MMO? And just create UI mechanics to facilitate different playing styles as best as possible? I think that this approach is more difficult to realise then forced grouping. Hardly a defeatists attitude.
If you respect other player's playstyle, then it would be a contradiction to design the game to enforce grouping or other certain kinds of player interaction. As if you say ' Yeah sure, I respect you want to solo, as long as you solo in my group.'
To me it seems you show a defeatist's attitude if you expect the game to force grouping instead of setting out yourself to find likeminded players.
It seems to me that what you need is a chat channel, a guild and a group of friends. Some of which, I believe, the game provides and some you already have.
The direction GW2 is taking is quite simple really, the more you see the same person as you do different DE's, the more likely you are to communicate and go exploring together naturally. The more you rez people, heal people, take damage for people, the more you form a bond and are more likely to communicate through words and that can also lead to forming a group. It has happened to me several times in many games that don't even have DE's so I think grouping will occur without it being forced. You just have to be a good person and a good player.
This is not a game.
Never said i wouldn't seek out like minded people. Me voicing my opinoin on how i dislike that feature is me fighting which is in direct opisition to defeatism.
If i was a defeatist i would have been saying things like this.
Well since the game doens't feature group activities I can't find other people and therefore it's pointless to even try and talk to others or even group up.
However that isn't what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that the features the game is showing will make this task a lot harder then it should because what normally bonds communities is when people need each other and they get talking during those tasks. Everytime someone doesn't need to do something they generally don't.
yes i can find a guild, but i'd like the game to encourage grouping and actual interaction. It just seems to me that they'd prefer everyone to just work on their own thing. It's almost like a philosphy that they don't want to make you do anything.
Don't want to group sure we got content here for you
Don't want to talk? Great cause you don't have to
Don't want to even see other people. Great we have a whole section of the town just for you.
I haven't followed the game a lot but this is the general feel of the game. Nothing makes me want to group with others. Loot, well loot as per fans say it's pretty pointless beyond looks.
xp? well thats pretty easily gained
Theres no raids so no need there.
Once i've killed the shattering once the experience is over.
Yes this is a rant but it's the core problem i have with this game, it seems like they are treating players (per features) as indivusuals that happen to share the world with others rather then cogs in a machine that need to work together to get a job done.
Now the actual question.
How much of this game actually requires people to work together to accomplish something...not get better rewards but to actually accomplish the task at hand? I know as it's not out yet and things can change that this figure is not completely accurate. But how often when i go out into this world will i say, you know what i think i need john with me today because i need X?
For the MMo world there needs to be a certain amount of need.
What made SWG so great imo is the need on other classes to succeed, what made EQ so memorable, the need on others to accomplish something, The monk to pull the warrior to tank the cleric to heal.
If you keep taking away the need for other people you take away the community network and it turns into a chat room...Not saying that is in this case.
I wish to close that it's entirely possible this isn't going to be the case...but it was in GW1 for me as i tried and tried to actual get into the community and got several tells that there wasn't a point to it really. I know two different games, same philosphy though at least from what i've seen.
Like my question (as i feel it will get lost) states how much of this game actual requires you to interact with the community? Do they treat players as part of a whole or just X person happens to be in the area so you'll get a bit more rewards at the end?
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.