Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wake me when its here zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
"Fact: While well respected amongst the industry, niche players such as yourself make up a small population and, therefore (and here's the sad truth of it) a small percentage of the income rolling in."
Really? I'm going to go ahead and agree with StormwindX above; the quality and tone of MMORPG.com articles has been steadily devolving into condescending, trite nonsense. Do you have some sort of reference for this totally ridiculous statement you made in your article, or did you just pull it out of your arse because you felt like it?
In reality, what real damage is done if modern MMO's allow things like customizable housing? Just like most modern MMO's allow you to ignore PvP if you don't wish to participate, nobody is FORCING you to buy a house and decorate it.
Some of us like the additional layer of immersion having a "home" of our own affords us.
But things for basically giving us all the finger and calling us the minority. If the majority are the kind of people keeping World of Warcraft alive, I'll proudly stick a label on myself as "Niche gamer."
This site has really gone to garbage.
Don't get upset about it. It's true.
It's not just World of Warcraft. It's almost every mmo with decent subsciption numbers.
Yup. Losing a small segment of the market that demands customizeable housing won't cost them that much money.
Some people like to assume that since they like/want something, then everyone must feel the same way, maybe not consciously, but definately on an unconscious level. I used to be this way. I played City Of Heroes long after it stopped being fun for me for the simple fact that I loved "decorating" my Super Group Base. Almost daily I would go in and add or tweak. I THOUGHT everyone in my Super Group loved the base as much as I did and it was a shock to find out that most of the 100 or so other could care less what the Base looked like. As long as it had the features in it that they needed AND they could find them easily, they were happy.
The fact is the "Housing Enthusiasts" ARE a niche group and while I would like to see the interiors AND exteriors of our ships become highly customizable, I also realise that the "need" for that feature may very well be pretty low on the totem pole when placed against the cash value of the feature. That isn't condescending, it is recognizing the facts. If you disagree, just look at all the games the don't even offer housing, let along customizable housing and place the numbers against the ones that do, I think you will find the same HUGE difference in numbers that I have.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I can't see any longevity in ToR. It's so similiar to WoW and offers nothing new endgame wise, that it's going to seem extremely dated when new games like GW2, Secret World and Blizzard's new mmo hit the market.
I do think it will change the mmo industry in a positive way. ToR will probably be the last monster budget mmo that tries to copy the same old forumla of levels, the trinity and instance grinding. I think we will see more sandpark games emerge once it becomes clear that straight themepark mmos are a thing of the past. MMO players are evolving and demanding more from developers.
Man are you off base. Crafting, Companions, Player ships, Space combat are just a few things off the top of my head that are being handled in a new and unique way in TOR. This MMO is far from a copy cut of WoW. Saying so show how little you know about this game. Will it be the next MMO that breaks millions of subs? We will see. Will its have a large population? I bet ya it will.
The crafting in ToR is not complex. The only twist to it is that your companions can do the gathering for you. Player ships are nothing special since they're just a glorified instanced house. You can't even pilot them. You just click on a map and watch a cut scene. Space combat is a throwaway mini game that is universally panned by testers as a waste of time.
Companions are interesting. But they can't be used in battlegrounds or operations, so how important are they really? After you hit max level you'll probably keep them on your ship and just use 1 or 2 for crafting.
At level 50 you're going to be instance grinding for honor (or whatever they're calling it) and loot. It's the exact same set up as wow. Even the epics are purple! People are going to be faced with the prospect of running the same 1-2 operations over and over in ToR, or going back to their characters in WoW where there is way more content and probably more of their friends. WoW will win, again.
yeah and you do the same stuff in wow your point.
My point is that people are burned out on WoW and waiting for something new. Instead of offering something new, ToR created WoW 2.0. ToR is already boring and dated and it has even been released yet. lol.
yeah and the water will be full of fish it dont matter game has the same stuff raiding end game pvp what ever. you just not happy person....... tor is bringing something new have you seen the crafting systm no mining yay no gathering yay fun O_O. the combat ant that great but i still want to give them my two sents if you judge game with out trying it dont matter to me. besides if the games not for you dont play it simple as pie . why force your self into liking a game thats dont suit you. yep you can rant on the forms say oh this is wow clone or nothing new oh tor sucks what ever man the game ant out yet and you have not played it nether have i so just wait till release get the game try it if you dont like it just step on the game. and for one i dont care about grachics not every one can afford power computer so thats why they made it this way to every one can play it have you thought of that maybe not :P
I'll have to disagree on the bit about no one wanting to be moisture farmers, and that the few people who do want that sort of gameplay are the minority.
Last I checked, the Farmville population utterly dwarfed the MMO population, and that game consists entirely of moisture farmers.
Even this site doesn't consider Farmville an MMO and it has pretty loose standards in that regard. But you do have a point: all the people who want to be farmers have a non-mmo setting to get their farming jollies so MMO developers can safely ignore them.
and continue churning out WOW clones.
I'd call that progress.
Yup that is progress, especially compared to churning out Farmville clones.
Actually, the exact definition of churning out clones would be "stagnation", but let's not bother ourselves with simple conversational accuracy, shall we?
See, that's the trouble with conversations like these. You always encounter people with emotional attachments to their games, who are entirely incapable of stopping for a moment and saying, "Hey. Maybe we could make our games a little differently. Maybe we could try to appeal to other demographics, or take inspiration from other successful genres in order to both improve our games and increase our paying playerbase.", and instead say, "No, forget that hogwash - let's just continue churning out the same game that we've been playing for close to a decade now, and pretend that people who don't like it are just non-factor noobs."
I don't think anyone here actually supports Farmville as a product, but not because it's a game that's effectively about moisture farming - people dislike it because it's a predatory people-using money scheme. The fact remains, however, that so many people actually enjoy managing their own homes and farms that they're willing to suck up and subject themselves to the level of exploitation that they're subjected to in Farmville.
After all, if people didn't want to be moisture farmers, games like The Sims wouldn't be some of the best selling games of all time, Minecraft wouldn't exist, and the concept of a lego would be alien and unspeakable.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com And overall bitter old man.
See, that's the trouble with conversations like these. You always encounter people with emotional attachments to their games,
Well, that's also true for the people who are attached to their hating/disliking of certain games, some do it to such extent that they discuss and post more about the games they dislike and abhor than about the games they favor and like.
who are entirely incapable of stopping for a moment and saying, "Hey. Maybe we could make our games a little differently. Maybe we could try to appeal to other demographics, or take inspiration from other successful genres in order to both improve our games and increase our paying playerbase.", and instead say, "No, forget that hogwash - let's just continue churning out the same game that we've been playing for close to a decade now, and pretend that people who don't like it are just non-factor noobs."
Now you're being the one emotional and irrational: 1 swallow doesn't make a summer, as a saying goes, SWTOR is just 1 MMORPG of the batch of upcoming MMO's, 1 themepark MMO of the WoW-style gameplay school. Other upcoming MMO's are from different design approaches so I don't see why SWTOR means 'churning out the same game' if other upcoming MMO's offer alternatives. To me it just shows that there's room on the MMO market for all kinds of design philosophies and concepts, including a continuation/evolution of WoW-styled themepark MMO's.
I don't think anyone here actually supports Farmville as a product, but not because it's a game that's effectively about moisture farming - people dislike it because it's a predatory people-using money scheme. The fact remains, however, that so many people actually enjoy managing their own homes and farms that they're willing to suck up and subject themselves to the level of exploitation that they're subjected to in Farmville.
After all, if people didn't want to be moisture farmers, games like The Sims wouldn't be some of the best selling games of all time, Minecraft wouldn't exist, and the concept of a lego would be alien and unspeakable.
The fact remains that MMO gamers perfectly managed to be able to enjoy their MMO's without managing their own homes and farms. If it wouldn't be like that, then WoW wouldn't have been so enormously successful, breaking any former record of success or player numbers with a vengeance. And this without housing and such being available in WoW, so apparently the fraction of players that want/require that as a core feature to be in their MMO's was negligible.
Easily 10 times more players have been playing themepark MMO's for years that didn't have such things than there were players before 2005 in MMO's that had such things.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
1) Guild wars was the first mmo (yea instancing whatever) that had story line as its main drive for the pve experience
2) Housing is nothing New in MMOs and the way SWTOR does it is actually lite when compared to the first mmos that came out with housing/player built structures
3) AoC had voice overs with an emphasis on story arcs for some of their quest. Rift has voice overs for main story line quest as well and it helps with the immersion
4) GW had companions with story lines
About the only thing that SWTOR seems to be doing that isn't copy-pasta from every singlethemepark mmo is the parallel single player story line arcs within the over arching MMO story. This would be cool if it wasn't for the fact that you are given the same limited choices 1000s of other players are given at the same time. Lets not forget City of Heroes Make you own quest system which offered more in RP/Story driven elements than SWTOR can hope to accomplish with its KTOR lite questing. The game would offer the KTOR experience if it was sandbox, like KTOR was. Sadly fpr the industry, bioware went were the money is instead of sticking to what they do well SANDBOX.
Lets hope GW2, ArchAge, and Rift patches and - while not likely, DFO's relaunch actually make MMOs tolerable again
I don't actually mind the idea of these articles, but so far I've found they lack the heart and conviction necessary to make me believe the writer ~genuinely~ believes in his opinions. As they are, they seem to pick the supposed 'unpopular' opinion purely for the sake of doing so, sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If you have an opinion you want to share, it should be shared regardless of whether or not plenty of people agree with it, whether or not it's unpopular. If this article had been released without the guise of Devil's Advocoate, it still would have been controversial and it still would have spurred discussion. Standing up for an opinion has spawned great discussion, forming an opinion that's 'different' purely for the sake of being different has only ever spawned gloomy goth kids who suddenly hate something they once enjoyed just because someone else has decided to like it, too.
I've been feeling that way about these articles since they first appeared, and this particular one takes the cake. That SWTOR is going to be a great game is by far and aways NOT the unpopular opinion. There are just as many people vouching for its greatness, likely more, than there are naysayers. Sort of like Rift. Yeah, there are plenty of people, player and reviewer alike, who say it's nothing new, but that's not stopping plenty of other people from playing and enjoying it. As for how it's going to revolutionize anything, you're going to have to do more than say 'it's got a purdy story' to back that claim up. It may be entertaining, but there's nothing particularly revolutionary about *gasp* adding a storyline to an RPG.
Voice acting isn't revolutionary; it's a bit new to the MMO genre, but it's not revolutionary and personally I find it to be a nuisance. I'd rather they give me text that I can skip if I so choose. I really don't give a shit what NPCs have to say, and I certainly don't want to sit through a voice-acted cut scene EVERY SINGLE TIME just because someone in my group is new and hasn't done it yet, despite my having seem it 10 times already. Voice acting is expensive, it adds a substantial amount of time to development, all for something people will tire of very quickly. It's a complete waste of time and resources for a game that people would much rather have in their hands now, than have in their hands next year just so the NPCs can talk at them.
Also, to other people here, are grammatical issues really such a big deal? I can understand if the article was difficult to read, but it wasn't. Posting in a tizz because a word or two was mispelled makes you look very stupid and immature; as if no one knows you're really just pissed off at the opinion stated, but have no real way to combat it so instead you pick at the grammar. Like bratty little kids who lack the intelligence to make a coherent point, and instead end up with "Oh yeah, well you're....stupid!" /eyeroll.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
If it only were simply KotOR 3, but I fear it won't be even that. The graphics are sub-par to single player RPG's and even sub-par to some of the current MMO's like AoC. Saw about every gameplay video and the voiceovers and animations are weak, compare them to let's say GTA series or Assassin's Creed...
As for MMO it apparently has reduced crafting, pseudo-housing with no customisation, same old DPS-Tank-Heal triangle, standard combat with tiny adjustments like cover which honestly doen't look exciting at all (Jedi Knight 2 has still the best lightsabre combat and that game has like 10 years). Oh and that space combat on rails, I mean I loved the old SW games that played like interactive movies some 12 years ago, but this is the XXI-st century. If the Black Prophecy could do it with limited FTP budget, how in earth can the giant Bioware not do it?
All in all the game looks likea 10-15 million title, so the question arises where the rest of the tens of millions went. Probably cinematics and critic bribes haha.
QFT.
As to where the other 10mil went. If they do indeed have a lot of cinematics (not cutscenes, but full-blown cinematics), then that could easily eat up 10mil$. They require a lot of people to make, most of whom aren't cheap.
More to the point:
- I have to admit I was curious when I saw the title, but the entire article read like an april fool's joke. Poorly written (as a few have already pointed out), and self contradictory. Devil's Advocate is supposed to mean you are assuming the role of opposition; one which few agree with. However, the arguments of this article are so poorly made that it could almost be mistaken for sarcasm.
'SW:TOR will change MMOs, because it has the same features as most current MMOs', brilliant.
Also, while probably not the same as what Bioware is doing, SWTOR won't be the first MMO with voice-driven gameplay. EQ2 was the first to do that heavily, and AOC attempted it to a lesser extent (though it got thrown out after tortage, most likely for budget reasons).
Just about the only 'unique' thing I saw in this article, was the 'crafting' system. Which really doesn't sound much like crafting at all, but more like an afk mini-game.
Also, the reason WoW was sucessful was a combination of luck in the timing, popular IP (if the harry potter mmo came out it would have been the same), the fact that young kids have always been able to play the game farily easily (easy control/UI), and the ability to play the game on junk computers. Take away any of these apsects and the game would fail now.
Sorry to double-post, but you guys are completely missing the point of the devil's advocate. While it can be used as an excuse to hide behind, the real purpose of such an argument is to force people to think from another perspective. Having a room full of people all nodding together, because everyone's doing it, isn't really constructive either.
- That being said, this article really does a poor job of playing devil's advocate. I'm somewhat doubtful to whether or not the author understands how that really works.
Sorry to double-post, but you guys are completely missing the point of the devil's advocate. While it can be used as an excuse to hide behind, the real purpose of such an argument is to force people to think from another perspective. Having a room full of people all nodding together, because everyone's doing it, isn't really constructive either.
- That being said, this article really does a poor job of playing devil's advocate. I'm somewhat doubtful to whether or not the author understands how that really works.
Actually, it's kind of funny because I have been thinking of doing exactly that, creating 'devil's advocate' threads in both GW2 and SWTOR forumsections here on mmorpg.com, but then from the point of view of a critic as a counterpoint for the overall positive outlook of the main group. Yep, also for SWTOR, because I was generally dissatisfied and annoyed by the weak arguments and low reasoning skills of most of the SWTOR critics, so more of a showing how it's done, posing valid criticisms while still showing sense and reason and being informed.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
A de-emphasis on crafting, lack of customizable player housing, and rich storytelling are hardly revolutionary. Also, try proofreading your opening paragraph.
I've noticed that, recently, most of the articles here have been very badly written, with spelling mistakes, lack of proof-reading and even glaring internet vices ("there" instead of "their" when referring to possession, excessive use or lack of necessary apostrophes, etc).
MMORPG.com really needs to up the quality of its editors. And of its writers.
Come on man, are you trying to put this poor guy out of a job?
Regarding the niche statement about crafting and customization, it always seems strange to me when people claim it as fact. One of the biggest gaming franchises ever is The Sims, and that is nothing but customization. Other big elephant in the room is Minecraft, again pure crafting and customization, only now geting some "content".
It's clear that the audience is here, all it takes is for someone to figure out the formula to make it work in the MMO enviroment.
Also, to other people here, are grammatical issues really such a big deal? I can understand if the article was difficult to read, but it wasn't. Posting in a tizz because a word or two was mispelled makes you look very stupid and immature; as if no one knows you're really just pissed off at the opinion stated, but have no real way to combat it so instead you pick at the grammar. Like bratty little kids who lack the intelligence to make a coherent point, and instead end up with "Oh yeah, well you're....stupid!" /eyeroll.
This is a pretty common tactic when a person can not reason a response to a argument. Attacking the argument rather than the writer is something most freshmen college students learn their first semester.
Btw, the definition of devil's advocate is simply "someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument". The term comes from the Catholic Church's canonization process where someone had to argue against the canonization of a saint.
Also, the reason WoW was sucessful was a combination of luck in the timing, popular IP (if the harry potter mmo came out it would have been the same), the fact that young kids have always been able to play the game farily easily (easy control/UI), and the ability to play the game on junk computers. Take away any of these apsects and the game would fail now.
Regarding the niche statement about crafting and customization, it always seems strange to me when people claim it as fact. One of the biggest gaming franchises ever is The Sims, and that is nothing but customization. Other big elephant in the room is Minecraft, again pure crafting and customization, only now geting some "content".
It's clear that the audience is here, all it takes is for someone to figure out the formula to make it work in the MMO enviroment.
Its already been figured out. SWG, UO, etc. The problem is that most people don't like complicated games.
Keeping my hype for this game in check. That has been my problem with "let down" of new games over the last year or so.
That said I am excited for this game and look forward to getting heavy wife aggro once it has launched.
Amen on that feeling. I ws reminded how blind I'd become when I let my wife and I get sucked into the hype behind Conan and we both bought collectors editions. /sigh. We tried again with Aion, collectors editions again and more sighing... Luckily for me there's no wife aggro to deal with unless I don't hold it during a boss fight and she gets smooshed
SWTOR has us both excited but we're tempering that lust this time. We've rejoined WoW for our fix while watching how this wonderfully deliciously fun looking Star Wars game gets fleshed out and further described. We're hopeful we'll thoroughly enjoy it and the world of canon that Bioware will breath life into.
Sorry to double-post, but you guys are completely missing the point of the devil's advocate. While it can be used as an excuse to hide behind, the real purpose of such an argument is to force people to think from another perspective. Having a room full of people all nodding together, because everyone's doing it, isn't really constructive either.
- That being said, this article really does a poor job of playing devil's advocate. I'm somewhat doubtful to whether or not the author understands how that really works.
Or maybe we completely understand the purpose of playing devil's advocate, and we're pointing out how poorly this attempt is and how non-productive these articles are?
The issue I take with it is that this site tries to express itself as an authority on MMO gaming. Where to get news and discuss MMOs and the industry trends. Sadly it seems that the featured articles on this site are more and more drifting toward extremely one sided opinion based editorials, a number of such articles would even be considered trolling if they were posted by regular members.
This article only reinforces my belief in the decline of the professionalism of this site. Rather than actually presenting informed and fact based analysis on issues, we're instead given slanted belief based editorials that do more to stoke the flames of hotbutton issues. Many of the articles lately seem to neglect to provide us with information worth any real substance, and only seem to serve to stir up the community and incite arguments.
Regarding the niche statement about crafting and customization, it always seems strange to me when people claim it as fact. One of the biggest gaming franchises ever is The Sims, and that is nothing but customization. Other big elephant in the room is Minecraft, again pure crafting and customization, only now geting some "content".
It's clear that the audience is here, all it takes is for someone to figure out the formula to make it work in the MMO enviroment.
Its already been figured out. SWG, UO, etc. The problem is that most people don't like complicated games.
But that's what i mean, we just need someone to not do it poorly, make it, you know... fun.
Also, the reason WoW was sucessful was a combination of luck in the timing, popular IP (if the harry potter mmo came out it would have been the same), the fact that young kids have always been able to play the game farily easily (easy control/UI), and the ability to play the game on junk computers. Take away any of these apsects and the game would fail now.
All the reasons I suggested for WoW's sucess aren't new and have been attributed to WoW's sucess quite often by its most adament supporters. When WoW launched, it took the existing modle with a few tweaks. Had it not been for those factors, it would not have crushed EQ.
"Fact: While well respected amongst the industry, niche players such as yourself make up a small population and, therefore (and here's the sad truth of it) a small percentage of the income rolling in."
Really? I'm going to go ahead and agree with StormwindX above; the quality and tone of MMORPG.com articles has been steadily devolving into condescending, trite nonsense. Do you have some sort of reference for this totally ridiculous statement you made in your article, or did you just pull it out of your arse because you felt like it?
In reality, what real damage is done if modern MMO's allow things like customizable housing? Just like most modern MMO's allow you to ignore PvP if you don't wish to participate, nobody is FORCING you to buy a house and decorate it.
Some of us like the additional layer of immersion having a "home" of our own affords us.
But things for basically giving us all the finger and calling us the minority. If the majority are the kind of people keeping World of Warcraft alive, I'll proudly stick a label on myself as "Niche gamer."
This site has really gone to garbage.
Don't get upset about it. It's true.
It's not just World of Warcraft. It's almost every mmo with decent subsciption numbers.
Every major MMORPG in North America has had housing except 2. WoW and, ironically, Everquest (which has it now, and has had guild halls for years)
UO? yup
DAoC? yup
AC? yup
FFXI? yup
SWG? yup
LOTRO? Yup
EQ2? yup
Im going to assume EvE doesnt have housing, but I dont know enough about EvE
Regarding the niche statement about crafting and customization, it always seems strange to me when people claim it as fact. One of the biggest gaming franchises ever is The Sims, and that is nothing but customization. Other big elephant in the room is Minecraft, again pure crafting and customization, only now geting some "content".
It's clear that the audience is here, all it takes is for someone to figure out the formula to make it work in the MMO enviroment.
Its already been figured out. SWG, UO, etc. The problem is that most people don't like complicated games.
But that's what i mean, we just need someone to not do it poorly, make it, you know... fun.
Those games are fun, they just aren't designed with the menality that you can play for an hour and log off while getting A LOT done in that hour by yourself. SWG pre NGE, UO (the key command system was standard when it was launched) , EvE, Haven and Hearth, etc have fairly simple controls and are pretty stright forward game play wise. The problem is, it takes thought. You aren't hand-held in these game, which is what makes them actually good (IMO). However, to most of the mmo market (which is still 25years old and younger), this level of depth and thinking over complicate that game for them. They are left with What am I suppose to do?" and log off in frustartion saying that the game doesn't have any content. Thats why pure sandbox games are typically niche, EvE and UO being the expections due to their blend of thempark 9faction fighting, quest system, etc) style gameplay and sandbox game play (open world PvP, in depth crafting system, massive amount of meta game elements, etc)
This is why I have high hopes for ArchAge, which is suppose to launch with both sandbox features and themepark ones.
Also, the reason WoW was sucessful was a combination of luck in the timing, popular IP (if the harry potter mmo came out it would have been the same), the fact that young kids have always been able to play the game farily easily (easy control/UI), and the ability to play the game on junk computers. Take away any of these apsects and the game would fail now.
All the reasons I suggested for WoW's sucess aren't new and have been attributed to WoW's sucess quite often by its most adament supporters. When WoW launched, it took the existing modle with a few tweaks. Had it not been for those factors, it would not have crushed EQ.
WoW also has that 'it' factor thats tough to pin down. Azeroth draws you in. The game world is well done and has a certain flair and wonder that games like Rift just do not have. Azeroth feels like an actual world, much like Norrath did back in 1999.
The races had character to them, with identifiable personalities and backgrounds and motivations. Contrast this with Rift and even SWG. You cant identify with being a Bahmi or a Trandoshan like you can with a WoW troll or an EQ Dark Elf. Even the generic fantasy races in both these games are done with a certain flair.
To put simply (if not even more abstractly) both games have SOUL. Thats a tough thing to set out and do which is why these two games remain the biggest success of the MMORPG industry in their respective eras.
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Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wake me when its here zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Some people like to assume that since they like/want something, then everyone must feel the same way, maybe not consciously, but definately on an unconscious level. I used to be this way. I played City Of Heroes long after it stopped being fun for me for the simple fact that I loved "decorating" my Super Group Base. Almost daily I would go in and add or tweak. I THOUGHT everyone in my Super Group loved the base as much as I did and it was a shock to find out that most of the 100 or so other could care less what the Base looked like. As long as it had the features in it that they needed AND they could find them easily, they were happy.
The fact is the "Housing Enthusiasts" ARE a niche group and while I would like to see the interiors AND exteriors of our ships become highly customizable, I also realise that the "need" for that feature may very well be pretty low on the totem pole when placed against the cash value of the feature. That isn't condescending, it is recognizing the facts. If you disagree, just look at all the games the don't even offer housing, let along customizable housing and place the numbers against the ones that do, I think you will find the same HUGE difference in numbers that I have.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
yeah and the water will be full of fish it dont matter game has the same stuff raiding end game pvp what ever. you just not happy person....... tor is bringing something new have you seen the crafting systm no mining yay no gathering yay fun O_O. the combat ant that great but i still want to give them my two sents if you judge game with out trying it dont matter to me. besides if the games not for you dont play it simple as pie . why force your self into liking a game thats dont suit you. yep you can rant on the forms say oh this is wow clone or nothing new oh tor sucks what ever man the game ant out yet and you have not played it nether have i so just wait till release get the game try it if you dont like it just step on the game. and for one i dont care about grachics not every one can afford power computer so thats why they made it this way to every one can play it have you thought of that maybe not :P
.....
Actually, the exact definition of churning out clones would be "stagnation", but let's not bother ourselves with simple conversational accuracy, shall we?
See, that's the trouble with conversations like these. You always encounter people with emotional attachments to their games, who are entirely incapable of stopping for a moment and saying, "Hey. Maybe we could make our games a little differently. Maybe we could try to appeal to other demographics, or take inspiration from other successful genres in order to both improve our games and increase our paying playerbase.", and instead say, "No, forget that hogwash - let's just continue churning out the same game that we've been playing for close to a decade now, and pretend that people who don't like it are just non-factor noobs."
I don't think anyone here actually supports Farmville as a product, but not because it's a game that's effectively about moisture farming - people dislike it because it's a predatory people-using money scheme. The fact remains, however, that so many people actually enjoy managing their own homes and farms that they're willing to suck up and subject themselves to the level of exploitation that they're subjected to in Farmville.
After all, if people didn't want to be moisture farmers, games like The Sims wouldn't be some of the best selling games of all time, Minecraft wouldn't exist, and the concept of a lego would be alien and unspeakable.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
And overall bitter old man.
The fact remains that MMO gamers perfectly managed to be able to enjoy their MMO's without managing their own homes and farms. If it wouldn't be like that, then WoW wouldn't have been so enormously successful, breaking any former record of success or player numbers with a vengeance. And this without housing and such being available in WoW, so apparently the fraction of players that want/require that as a core feature to be in their MMO's was negligible.
Easily 10 times more players have been playing themepark MMO's for years that didn't have such things than there were players before 2005 in MMO's that had such things.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
1) Guild wars was the first mmo (yea instancing whatever) that had story line as its main drive for the pve experience
2) Housing is nothing New in MMOs and the way SWTOR does it is actually lite when compared to the first mmos that came out with housing/player built structures
3) AoC had voice overs with an emphasis on story arcs for some of their quest. Rift has voice overs for main story line quest as well and it helps with the immersion
4) GW had companions with story lines
About the only thing that SWTOR seems to be doing that isn't copy-pasta from every singlethemepark mmo is the parallel single player story line arcs within the over arching MMO story. This would be cool if it wasn't for the fact that you are given the same limited choices 1000s of other players are given at the same time. Lets not forget City of Heroes Make you own quest system which offered more in RP/Story driven elements than SWTOR can hope to accomplish with its KTOR lite questing. The game would offer the KTOR experience if it was sandbox, like KTOR was. Sadly fpr the industry, bioware went were the money is instead of sticking to what they do well SANDBOX.
Lets hope GW2, ArchAge, and Rift patches and - while not likely, DFO's relaunch actually make MMOs tolerable again
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
I don't actually mind the idea of these articles, but so far I've found they lack the heart and conviction necessary to make me believe the writer ~genuinely~ believes in his opinions. As they are, they seem to pick the supposed 'unpopular' opinion purely for the sake of doing so, sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If you have an opinion you want to share, it should be shared regardless of whether or not plenty of people agree with it, whether or not it's unpopular. If this article had been released without the guise of Devil's Advocoate, it still would have been controversial and it still would have spurred discussion. Standing up for an opinion has spawned great discussion, forming an opinion that's 'different' purely for the sake of being different has only ever spawned gloomy goth kids who suddenly hate something they once enjoyed just because someone else has decided to like it, too.
I've been feeling that way about these articles since they first appeared, and this particular one takes the cake. That SWTOR is going to be a great game is by far and aways NOT the unpopular opinion. There are just as many people vouching for its greatness, likely more, than there are naysayers. Sort of like Rift. Yeah, there are plenty of people, player and reviewer alike, who say it's nothing new, but that's not stopping plenty of other people from playing and enjoying it. As for how it's going to revolutionize anything, you're going to have to do more than say 'it's got a purdy story' to back that claim up. It may be entertaining, but there's nothing particularly revolutionary about *gasp* adding a storyline to an RPG.
Voice acting isn't revolutionary; it's a bit new to the MMO genre, but it's not revolutionary and personally I find it to be a nuisance. I'd rather they give me text that I can skip if I so choose. I really don't give a shit what NPCs have to say, and I certainly don't want to sit through a voice-acted cut scene EVERY SINGLE TIME just because someone in my group is new and hasn't done it yet, despite my having seem it 10 times already. Voice acting is expensive, it adds a substantial amount of time to development, all for something people will tire of very quickly. It's a complete waste of time and resources for a game that people would much rather have in their hands now, than have in their hands next year just so the NPCs can talk at them.
Also, to other people here, are grammatical issues really such a big deal? I can understand if the article was difficult to read, but it wasn't. Posting in a tizz because a word or two was mispelled makes you look very stupid and immature; as if no one knows you're really just pissed off at the opinion stated, but have no real way to combat it so instead you pick at the grammar. Like bratty little kids who lack the intelligence to make a coherent point, and instead end up with "Oh yeah, well you're....stupid!" /eyeroll.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
QFT.
As to where the other 10mil went. If they do indeed have a lot of cinematics (not cutscenes, but full-blown cinematics), then that could easily eat up 10mil$. They require a lot of people to make, most of whom aren't cheap.
More to the point:
- I have to admit I was curious when I saw the title, but the entire article read like an april fool's joke. Poorly written (as a few have already pointed out), and self contradictory. Devil's Advocate is supposed to mean you are assuming the role of opposition; one which few agree with. However, the arguments of this article are so poorly made that it could almost be mistaken for sarcasm.
'SW:TOR will change MMOs, because it has the same features as most current MMOs', brilliant.
Also, while probably not the same as what Bioware is doing, SWTOR won't be the first MMO with voice-driven gameplay. EQ2 was the first to do that heavily, and AOC attempted it to a lesser extent (though it got thrown out after tortage, most likely for budget reasons).
Just about the only 'unique' thing I saw in this article, was the 'crafting' system. Which really doesn't sound much like crafting at all, but more like an afk mini-game.
Also, the reason WoW was sucessful was a combination of luck in the timing, popular IP (if the harry potter mmo came out it would have been the same), the fact that young kids have always been able to play the game farily easily (easy control/UI), and the ability to play the game on junk computers. Take away any of these apsects and the game would fail now.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Sorry to double-post, but you guys are completely missing the point of the devil's advocate. While it can be used as an excuse to hide behind, the real purpose of such an argument is to force people to think from another perspective. Having a room full of people all nodding together, because everyone's doing it, isn't really constructive either.
- That being said, this article really does a poor job of playing devil's advocate. I'm somewhat doubtful to whether or not the author understands how that really works.
Actually, it's kind of funny because I have been thinking of doing exactly that, creating 'devil's advocate' threads in both GW2 and SWTOR forumsections here on mmorpg.com, but then from the point of view of a critic as a counterpoint for the overall positive outlook of the main group. Yep, also for SWTOR, because I was generally dissatisfied and annoyed by the weak arguments and low reasoning skills of most of the SWTOR critics, so more of a showing how it's done, posing valid criticisms while still showing sense and reason and being informed.
Well, maybe for another time.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Come on man, are you trying to put this poor guy out of a job?
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
Regarding the niche statement about crafting and customization, it always seems strange to me when people claim it as fact. One of the biggest gaming franchises ever is The Sims, and that is nothing but customization. Other big elephant in the room is Minecraft, again pure crafting and customization, only now geting some "content".
It's clear that the audience is here, all it takes is for someone to figure out the formula to make it work in the MMO enviroment.
This is a pretty common tactic when a person can not reason a response to a argument. Attacking the argument rather than the writer is something most freshmen college students learn their first semester.
Btw, the definition of devil's advocate is simply "someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument". The term comes from the Catholic Church's canonization process where someone had to argue against the canonization of a saint.
xpiher meet Occam
Its already been figured out. SWG, UO, etc. The problem is that most people don't like complicated games.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Amen on that feeling. I ws reminded how blind I'd become when I let my wife and I get sucked into the hype behind Conan and we both bought collectors editions. /sigh. We tried again with Aion, collectors editions again and more sighing... Luckily for me there's no wife aggro to deal with unless I don't hold it during a boss fight and she gets smooshed
SWTOR has us both excited but we're tempering that lust this time. We've rejoined WoW for our fix while watching how this wonderfully deliciously fun looking Star Wars game gets fleshed out and further described. We're hopeful we'll thoroughly enjoy it and the world of canon that Bioware will breath life into.
Or maybe we completely understand the purpose of playing devil's advocate, and we're pointing out how poorly this attempt is and how non-productive these articles are?
The issue I take with it is that this site tries to express itself as an authority on MMO gaming. Where to get news and discuss MMOs and the industry trends. Sadly it seems that the featured articles on this site are more and more drifting toward extremely one sided opinion based editorials, a number of such articles would even be considered trolling if they were posted by regular members.
This article only reinforces my belief in the decline of the professionalism of this site. Rather than actually presenting informed and fact based analysis on issues, we're instead given slanted belief based editorials that do more to stoke the flames of hotbutton issues. Many of the articles lately seem to neglect to provide us with information worth any real substance, and only seem to serve to stir up the community and incite arguments.
But that's what i mean, we just need someone to not do it poorly, make it, you know... fun.
All the reasons I suggested for WoW's sucess aren't new and have been attributed to WoW's sucess quite often by its most adament supporters. When WoW launched, it took the existing modle with a few tweaks. Had it not been for those factors, it would not have crushed EQ.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Every major MMORPG in North America has had housing except 2. WoW and, ironically, Everquest (which has it now, and has had guild halls for years)
UO? yup
DAoC? yup
AC? yup
FFXI? yup
SWG? yup
LOTRO? Yup
EQ2? yup
Im going to assume EvE doesnt have housing, but I dont know enough about EvE
Those games are fun, they just aren't designed with the menality that you can play for an hour and log off while getting A LOT done in that hour by yourself. SWG pre NGE, UO (the key command system was standard when it was launched) , EvE, Haven and Hearth, etc have fairly simple controls and are pretty stright forward game play wise. The problem is, it takes thought. You aren't hand-held in these game, which is what makes them actually good (IMO). However, to most of the mmo market (which is still 25years old and younger), this level of depth and thinking over complicate that game for them. They are left with What am I suppose to do?" and log off in frustartion saying that the game doesn't have any content. Thats why pure sandbox games are typically niche, EvE and UO being the expections due to their blend of thempark 9faction fighting, quest system, etc) style gameplay and sandbox game play (open world PvP, in depth crafting system, massive amount of meta game elements, etc)
This is why I have high hopes for ArchAge, which is suppose to launch with both sandbox features and themepark ones.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
WoW also has that 'it' factor thats tough to pin down. Azeroth draws you in. The game world is well done and has a certain flair and wonder that games like Rift just do not have. Azeroth feels like an actual world, much like Norrath did back in 1999.
The races had character to them, with identifiable personalities and backgrounds and motivations. Contrast this with Rift and even SWG. You cant identify with being a Bahmi or a Trandoshan like you can with a WoW troll or an EQ Dark Elf. Even the generic fantasy races in both these games are done with a certain flair.
To put simply (if not even more abstractly) both games have SOUL. Thats a tough thing to set out and do which is why these two games remain the biggest success of the MMORPG industry in their respective eras.
AoC? No
Warhammer? No
That's just a couple of the top of my head.