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Why can't fantasy MMO developers, take note of what EvE Online has done?
thefinn
Member Posts: 46
For ages I've been after a sandbox game. I played a few years of eve online - 5 now I think - but I just can't keep doing the spaceship thing. I love all the systems in the game, the market is amazing, the crafting could use some work but it's at least something you don't get bored of - you need excel to really do hardcore crafting in the game.
The combat is fine, but ... in space. It lacks that whole "I can stand against the horde before me" feel to it. You can stand, but you'll definitely fall. There's no skill much to the combat, most of it comes down to... numbers. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some skill when the numbers are small or 1v1. That's where skill really does come into play, but finding those fights is extremely difficult - mostly because everyone knows - it comes down to numbers...
Again, player owned space/land is great. You have the equivalent of player housing. You can take or be attacked at any time, huge alliances form and people cry, bicker and fume on the community forum. The community for eve is awesome, people of all ages, nationalities and languages congregate for the abovementioned bickering and fuming.
Admittedly, the questing in eve is a little boring after a while, but at least it serves a purpose and HEAPS of people do it because of that. Not to mention making quests for spaceships must be rather taxing on ones' imagination.
My real question is - why has noone copied this model for a fantasy game? What the fuck is wrong with developers? Darkfall and MO are FPS which is gonna just completely rob most of the older people or people that want to RP. And let's face it, for a decent UO style sandbox you need the RP - it adds flavor - and no I don't RP, but I love seeing those dudes around and laughing at or listening to their dialogue at times. FPS games are never going to have this, mostly because it's hard to RP when you're trying to fire arrows with both hands. Noone's screaming "for the horde" or whatever during combat - they even do this in EvE Online yes.
The boredom factor. None of EvE's real features bores anyone. Trade, crafting, combat are all exciting and develop daily. I've watched the servers go from 15k people online at once as a max, to 60k over the years. The model works.
WTF is wrong with these guys writing the games? People would love to see seasons yes, day and night yes, great and interesting wildlife sure. But if you can't get the basics down pat, don't bother starting the coding, you're wasting your time and our money.
Comments
There is nothing wrong with those development guys. Their target audience are the millions and millions of people who enjoy casual themepark mmo's. Not the few hundred thousands that prefer sandbox games.
Althoug just like you I would like to play a polished AAA sandbox fantasy game the chances are very small that will happen in the near future.
No what I'm getting at are the guys who are WRITING sandboxes already.
Darkfall, MO, etc..
What happens in their planning meetings? They look around the industry, take a good look at what sandboxes are failing, and what are doing well (name one?). See eve online and go "oh but that's a space game" and completely discount it?
They have gotta be retarded.
My EVE YouTube Channel
What I personally don't get is why most of these games have to be played like an fps, why not a tab target system?
I personally like a fps style game with a fantasy setting but I feel that in an mmo setting like darkfall etc tab targetting would draw a bigger crowd and its less, I don't know, stressfull? Scary?
Heh , what makes EVE so magical is the fact that the devs took the approach of the "non-player-friendly" mind set. EVE is the kind of game that when your a newbie and you skip the tutorial , you're in deep crap. EVE is also pretty complex , which is why people quit after a month.
Now to the first reply you've gotten about the devs going after the millions of casual players , is right and wong , well more wrong. You see, games after games are being released to aim these so called "casual" gamers but none are attracting more people then another. Like you'll have a new MMO that will win about 200K players , 4 months later a new MMO that looks alot like that other MMO where those 200K players have been playing , and out of those 200K on the 4 month old MMO , 150K leaves to join the new MMO.
Best example to what I'm saying here is ROSE Online , this game at release had hundred of thousands of players , the maps were full , the servers were full , a few months later after 2-3 other MMO's had release , ROSE has become a ghost , a shadow in the game list of this website. And the same goes to almost every other MMO released.
It's like a hoard of people will follow the mass ,when the mass leaves most of the hoard leaves. So in the end , it ends up being the same people playing other MMOs. The MMO world isn't really gaining any popularity.
Will GW2 and ToR make a difference? Who knows , everyone is hoping , but from where I am ,I stopped hoping a long time ago.
In the type of world we live in today , devs don't have much of a choice but to follow what the millions of people are playing who are spreaded on over 400 MMOs / thousands of FPS / thousands of RTS. Problem is , the devs are putting too much time on making a MMO with everything in it that they forget to fix bugs and such. *cough* FF14 *spits* And in the end , people get fed up and move to another MMO.
Also you talked about community on EVE being awesome , which is true (6 year player myself). The thing with F2P and P2P , P2P will have the most solid communities , since they paid year after year to play their favorite game. A F2P is more like a collateral , play until your fed up , and jump onto the next F2P mmo. F2P communities are crap because of this.
DAoC was great before Trammel. It managed to give you the feeling that EvE did. And I know what I'm talking about as I've been in large guilds/alliances in both games fighting for glory.
The siege-system of DAoC was more epic then anything else offered afterwards in the fantasy-genre and it had open battlegrounds, like I'd call 0.0 in EvE the open battlegrounds. You didn't need to queue up, but simply enter and slaughter away. The sieges weren't timed or only weekly events either, but could happen any time and I can very well remember the ring-calls at 2 am to defend the castle and our relics.
Yes, there's no developer so far who've got it right. And a pure sandbox like MO or DF aren't gonna cut it anyways as people need lot's of PvE-content in addition turning the whole thing into a sandpark. EvE is just this - a "sandpark".
There's hope that ArcheAge will be the next thing that possibly get it right with it's announced systems, but I allready hear tons of people screaming because of the FFA-element. It's basically the players themselves, why no developer is going to develop something like EvE these days, as most players don't want to deal with others but play the game 99% solo and free of fear to be killed by others.
Games like Darkfall and Mortal Online didn't have so much trouble because of the concepts behind the game, they had so much trouble because of the horrible implementation.
Also, they wanted to be "totally new" or "completely different". You can't be "totally new" or "completely different" if you're using the same old tab targeting or other systems from existing medieval fantasy games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Otherwise I agree with your post.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Correct me if I"m wrong, but the design doesnt' translate to a ground based game.
Look at a map of EVE and the territory the corporations control.
Then look at a map of an MMOPRG in a fantasy setting.
IN EVE, if I understand it correctly, there's always somewhere to go to carve out a small section of space for yourself.
How do you do that, in a land based game, when you are surrounded by stronger enemies?
Wouldn't you simply be crushed and unable to move anywhere?
How do you translate this into a 2d world where people aren't flying spaceships to different planets?
{mod edit - image resized to 600px wide to fit forum software}
Correct me if I"m wrong, but the design doesnt' translate to a ground based game.
Look at a map of EVE and the territory the corporations control.
Then look at a map of an MMOPRG in a fantasy setting.
IN EVE, if I understand it correctly, there's always somewhere to go to carve out a small section of space for yourself.
How do you do that, in a land based game, when you are surrounded by stronger enemies?
Wouldn't you simply be crushed and unable to move anywhere?
How do you translate this into a 2d world where people aren't flying spaceships to different planets?
Instead of planets or outer space, you have different planes of reality. Kind of like Rift, except you can travel in those other planes of reality to get places. Or you have teleportation of some sort.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Actually, EVE does not have places for people to go off and carve out their own empires, to survive in 0.0 you have to be willing to fight for it and the only way to survive against stronger foes is to ally yourself with like minded others for self defense.
Land based MMO's can and do operate this same way.
Back to the OP, the biggest difference between success and failure that I see between MO/DF and EVE is that CCP designed the game with a large "safer space" zone where people could go about their business in relative safety, and venture out into the wilds (or fight an occasional war dec ) on terms more or less of their own choosing.
EVE lets the player limit their risk (more or less) if they fly smart, and sometimes get a bit lucky. (other day I was hauling a full load of goods out of 0.0 back to hi sec and ran smack into a sling bubble...that was unmanned at the time...would have been dead otherwise...)
I would have given DF a try if I though there was a way to limit my exposure, especially in the early going when I was just learning the ropes. MO I woubn't have bothered with just because that team seems to have too many problems to ever really succeed.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
First let's define Themepark. Not all themeparks are bad. A Themepark which hand holds you all the way like.... ALL THE MMORPGS OUT THERE, is bad. And those so called millions who prefer the so called "Themeparks" (what they mean is actually WoW design model) these people don't know what they want. Proof of this is Warhammer, Age of Conan, and every other "Themepark" failure.
I think we need more failures to come to just prove to those investors that people actually don't want such game designs and all those who support the WoW Game Models are clueless and will probably not play, for long, any new MMORPG based on such design and even if they do enjoy the game they're usually base their enjoyment comparison on a turd of an experience. Anything tastes good when compared to a turd. If you have nothing good to compare to, then whatever you have should be acceptable.
I don't believe that the majority love the WoW MMORPG model just like I don't believe the majority of people loved Britney Spear music. Just because many of them were never exposed to good music which makes Britney's music "acceptable" doesn't make the music any good. The public opinion suck, not only for gaming.. but for everything else.
If a game company cater to those clueless jackovasaurs and how they want their games to be made then we'll continue to see many turds on silver plates served to us.
WAR, AoC and other themepark MMOs problems wern't that they were "WoW Clones". Its that they where simply buggy and unfinished and didn't have half the features WoW did at the time of their release. Their problems ran much deeper then being a WoW clone. If that was the case we would all still be playing EQ.
Well thats just the thing. They are.
Spread the word, to end the word
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"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is pretty basic. Developers are not looking at EvE for the same reason they don't look at other paticular MMO's.
EvE makes money for CCP.. just as other "non eq core design" MMO's have made money. Most companies just want more..
When the CEO of a company says "we'll make a profit at 500,000 subscribers..." it answers your question. EQ1 which for western MMO's was pretty much still tops before November 2004... far as I know topped out around 450,000 subs.
I am not sure where EvE supposedly is now.. but I seem to remember something in the range of 300,000 (could be upper end of that and it may be more). The point is companies have some unrealistic expectation that their minimum number will be higher than almost all western MMO's maximum number...
We don't exactly help encourage developers to make a different game. If a higher up came into a thread like this and saw what the typical comments devolve into. The image that would come to mind is a virtual world with a very small community.. that is very aggressive and abusive to anything outside of it. That is exactly what no company with investors is going to develop a game for (ya that's my opinion). *edit* A private company may in fact develop that game because they don't have investors to answer to. Tho considering the cost to develop they obviously have to borrow from someone that expects to be repaid.
Oh and for me personally I'd rather see a modern Ultima Online "core design" type game (early uo that is) than EvE translated to landbased.
That right there is the reason. Not very many people want a full loot lose everything I've worked for PVP MMO at all times.(Well not stashes/banked,etc) Shadowbane I think did it right. These Full loot MMO's appeal to a small amount of gamers anymore. Frankly because many of the players that enjoyed these games have grown up and no longer have hours and hours to devote to a game, and a minor setback can mean a spent evening. Newer gamers usually do not understand the benefit to it so they just don't buy the games. But alas as another poster said yeah these other devs releasing these have polished barely working codes of fantasy crap at release(though DF I hear is really getting good, but they do have a wipe or something in the making, don't really follow it) are frankly retarded.
Would love to see you gather a team and make this fantasy sandbox game, then come back and see how retarded they are.
Wanting a new game is one thing, attacking the developers and calling them retards is a different matter, it is their game, their design. If you want your philosphy completely play out in a game, make it yourself. Game developers have no obligation to make a game completely according to one player's taste, and tho EvE is generally popular, it still relies on a very small hardcore based group of players, it just doesn't attact the numbers that themepark do. Love it or hate it, playing 23 hours a day, and desperately trying to gather/grind resources to build a base economy is a minority playstyle.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
@OP
Well it will be preety far from UO , but ArcheAge will be sandbox/themepark mix that some call sandpark.
Well it will have open world housing, ships & sailing , vast and open world and bit diffrent crafting idea.
Though it will have also many themepark elements like quest hubs , levels and stuff.
Anyway from non-indie titles coming in this is your best shot and game really look interesting and with potential.
Check it out.
Islands. Oceans are your time-sink barriers to hopping around randomly. In a high-fantasy environment, you have gateways as your jumpgates to produce graphs of any complexity you want.
I'm not sure I understand this thread...
"The combat is fine, but ... in space. It lacks that whole "I can stand against the horde before me" feel to it. You can stand, but you'll definitely fall. There's no skill much to the combat, most of it comes down to... numbers. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some skill when the numbers are small or 1v1. That's where skill really does come into play, but finding those fights is extremely difficult - mostly because everyone knows - it comes down to numbers..."
Basically the combat boils down to whom has the larger/better equiped fleet? Why would anyone WANT a pvp system which boils down to who has the larger force?
"Admittedly, the questing in eve is a little boring after a while, but at least it serves a purpose and HEAPS of people do it because of that. "
Questing in general is boring for pvpers , unless its a pvp quest then its just a side reward.
I think the crux of my problem with Eve is the combat is stale, so I don't ever want to see it translated to a Fantasy sandbox which thus far have enjoyable combat.
Damn, i love that line. "Go make your own game then." or "Don't play it then." treating me as if i have that couple million, those programing skills, and that team to execute the plan. See i don't have those things. So I'm going to question anyone that does have all these things and produces a pile of crap.
None of this would be an issue if that company with the couple million and that team with those programing skills. Weren't making the same damn game i played one hundred times before.
Game developers should have an obligation to make a great game. Not a personal ATM machine. I'm a consumer. Not writing a business report here. I don't care about numbers.
To an outsider's eye, Eve warfare looks to be the MMO equivilent to the boardgame Diplomacy. The actual battles are more of a formality where assumptions get put to the test - the real drama happens in the preparations and negotiations.
Yep implement the D&D Planescape setting and you can do alot of what EvE does.
Granted it is a serious foundational issue and is, in my opinion, the main reason games like DF cannot really capture what EvE does.
However while many are failing I don't think its impossible for creative people to pull off and in fact there is an already existing cool IP for it.
The main issue though is that EvE dyamically creates the "space" you are in. Vast amount of the space are represented but almost never flown through because they are not part of some kind of warp point. In theory you can fly through any part of the EvE-verse. You could concievably fly from one jumpgate to another across a system and things would pop up which are not exactly truly in existence until you get there.
I believe this could be done in a land based game, however making terrain in this way is obviously a harder problame than making empty space or just generating some canned asteroids.
I wasn't actually planning on replying to the thread, but merely go through and have a read regarding what people posted.
Look EvE is a great sandbox, huge amounts of "crafting" with various (thousands) of different components that are bought and sold on an open market which not only allows you to put up a sell order for a good you have, but also BUY ORDERS for goods you WANT. Thus creating a proper market economy in game which engages the player.
The player owned space has its' own territory control systems, as well as what you could refer to individual housing for players ( a player owned starbase ) which you can sit in and be very very safe even in a most unsafe environment.
The other side of the game is the pvp and partial loot systems. This gets people out in groups to PVP, pirate, defend, attack and otherwise have a blast. The only problem for me is that it's in space.
I understand if you think developers are doing their own thing, but developers like Aventurine for instance, screwed up by creating an MMOFPS and that limited their player base to about 10% of what it was originally. Then a year or so down the track come back saying they are going to release Darkfall 2 and everyone's characters and the world will be completely reset.
It's great that you think they are being original, however they are in it to make money and completely discount everything everyone says regarding MMOFPS's and go ahead and throw all their money out the window. Then sit around in a drunken stupor slurring "What'd we do wrong?" at their communities. MO is little different in this regard.
Personally, I'm awaiting the release of Arche Age. It looks phenomenal and has many of the elements in it that I'm talking about. Strangely enough there are several factors that go into making the new UO that many newer gamers would never consider.
Roleplayers.
I'm not a roleplayer. I dabble maybe once a year, feel really gay about it and stop
But I do like seeing others do it and think it's a great part of the culture of MMORPG's and not taking it all so seriously and not having the game be all about the stats or who has the better gear from the best dungeons. It creates in-game events that would never occur otherwise and adds to the storyline - when you have a great company like CCP that will integrate them in upcoming updates.
Drama.
EvE has this too and strangely enough - it creates community, it creates fanfare and squabbling. Damn, I'm not even playing but I know right now I can go to the eve forum and laugh my ass off at a few posts I find there any time of day or night. Some dude crying because some big bad pirates ganked his mining ship on a gate in low-sec. Or some egotistical rampage from one of the major coalition members in a leaked chat log.
It has it all.
Not 90% (Rift?), not 80% (WAR), not 50% (DF, MO)... 100%.
I think it's sad that these guys can't comprehend how awful what they have made is a lot of the time - it's like someone who draws a perfectly detailed picture but the drawing has no soul - so creative, yet so uncreative.
P.S Yes I hate that I use the word retard too, let's just assume most people mean e-tard
My EVE YouTube Channel
and this is the best thing EVE did, I think DF would have double or triple the subscribers if they as you said LIMIT the players risk. I think many players enjoy PVP aspects but like to choose when they participate in PVP. now i know some rabid PVPer will say "well sandbox games are supposedly all about freedom and thats why we should have open PVP" ...
but when does YOUR freedom hinder my freedom? because when your freedom does hinder my freedom I don't adapt I don't "l2p" or move to another area of the game ... i just quit. see im not tied to your griefer playground i have plenty of games i can load up and just kill time in. so congrats you just cost that company in a game you enjoy 15 bucks a month ... and then probably a couple more subscription when i tell my friends or guildies about how "awful" the game is.