I'm an independent game developer ( among other things ) and I just have to ask, what do players WANT nowadays?
I started MMOs with Ultima Online, but to this day I can't say I've really enjoyed playing anything else.
And of course if I went back to UO, the magic is no longer there, so speaking for myself I think I'm competing with my own nostalgia for something that just cannot be recreated.
It's no longer novel to simply be "online" with other people in a shared environment.
It's very difficult from a developers point of view to determine what is "fun" when you're burned out.
I know what I HATE, but I have trouble envisioning what kind of compelling and immersive experience that *I* want from a game anymore that would also appeal to others and earn revenue.
It's a crappy place to be if game development is your main skill set
Off hand I'd say I can appreciate sand box environments where the game play is emergent, non-linear, non-theme park, where the GM's aren't stormtroopers, secondary markets are accepted, where the game is more than just combat and PVP, and where the game world itself is more granular / atomic and interactive. But beyond that, I'm split on cartoonism versus realism, or what kind of novel features can be done that havent already been implemented elsewhere.
Curious what others thoughts are for their ideal game.
Take the gathering / crafting system from SWG pre NGE.
Take the RvR system from DAoC.
Add in a Allegiance type system from Asheron's Call.
Govern different "regions" in your world like they do in EvE with High Security, Medium and No (0.0).
Let players claim and hold land.
Get rid of mini-maps and questionmarks over quest givers.
Only have a handfull of quest givers. The power of the word "quest" makes a comeback to actually meaning something special. Quests would be randomized...and I do mean randomized.
Reinstate players having NPC vendors that are setup inside/outside their personal houses. No Auction Hall.
Those are a few I would start with. My game would not be aimed for people who have ever uttered the phrase "I don't need a second job" or for those that want to buy their way (no item mall) or for those who seek "end game" or just want to hurry up and "win it so they can jump to the next big thing". The reward / sense of accomplishment you get from my game would in large part correlate to how much time you invest in it.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
My short answer would be...surprise me. How you ask? Well you could do it a couple of ways.
1) Bring back some of the playing mechanics from past MMO's that are no longer in favor such as Shadowbane's looting system, or DAOC's 3 faction RVR but be sure to include some element of territiory control to give us something to fight for.
2) Create something all new, see Citadel of Sorcery for a title that really is promising something different, even if it sometimes sounds too good to be true.
3) Control the gameplay experience with active and swift moderation and don't be afraid to kick asshats out of the game world indefinitely.
4) Make sure that no matter what style of PVP you go for make sure each player can easily limit (not eliminate) their level of risk.
5) Be sure to include gameplay mechanics that strongly encourage players to interact and make sure there are tools in place to make it easier to do so. (And no, this does not mean add a cross server dungeon finder) 6) Do not assume that anything Blizzard did is the only right way to do things in MMO's. On the converse, do not assume just because Blizzard did something it is automatically bad, it may have been the perfect answer for their particular design and target audience.
edit: stupid "smart" phone only let's me reply in a wall of text, so parsed it for clarity
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's the same as with nearly any human activity. Let's take swimming. There are a certain number of people who want to swim competitively. They enjoy the challenge.
The you have a much larger group of people who just want to splash around in the pool.
And then you have another still sizeable group who just want to lounge by the pool while others swim.
If you want to know what players want, which of these types of people are you asking about? People who like a challenge? People who don't like a challenge? People who are just hanging out?
It makes all the difference. But generally speaking, the more the challenge, the less people you find who are interested.
Very good point.
It actually reminds me of a conversation/argument I had with some of the Shadowbane team a few years ago back when the games population was at its peak. The general attitude was "screw the casuals (carebears in those days) this is a hard core game". Which I can understand and agree with, but my point was why can't an MMO support both types of players? Their answer was such a thing was not possible because it would essentially require two entirely seperate games. An opinion I felt was about half bullshit. Some games have tried this idea to an extent, Eve with its secure to lawless zones, and old school SWG with its neutral/covert/overt PVP system. Those seemed to work pretty well and they let those that want to life dangerously do so without much troubling those of a mellower outlook. I do not think the idea that one game can suport two very different player types (and the varying degrees in between) is impossible.
So what I want is for game companies to stop trying to court only one type of MMO player and attempt to create a game world that would allow for more than one style of gaming. So far it looks like Archage is the only game attempting this idea.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Originally posted by Onigod What i want is a GAME and there arent many.
in my vieuw a game is only a real game if player skill and some intellect is required to achieve something. i dont want a game wich would allow me to reach end game with my eyes closed while just spamming those fricking carebear prem shop health potions.
i dont want a kill 30 boars quests theres is no accomplishment in them i want the quest to be kill 3 boars and die 2 times while trying to do so becouse every type of mob and in this case boars require a diffrent approach making it incredible hard when you face them for the first time.
i dont want a game that when i bunnyhop around like a retard and i accidantly jump over the end of a cliffside to be hold by a invisable magical wall wich doesnt allow me to even fall of it i want the game to allow me to fall off it making my character break its neck.
mmorpgs need to stop going easymode.
This post is where we are getting our problems from. We aren't playing games, we are measuring games against our little list of demands or expectations.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I want a skill based game so when someone attacks you it would be a suprise. My Jedi knight in SWG walked around in regular clothes until some one attacked and boy did they get a suprise. Man the good old days
I want options. These days it seems developers are just making a game the way they think people should play it. Instead, especially for an MMORPG, they need to make a world with a ton of options and then let the players just go nuts and do whatever they can imagine up. Options, options, options. That's the key.
I'm a huge progression guy for games. I want to create a character, or characters, and wander the world fighting, exploring, building. I want a vast amount of character customization options, not just before playing, but during as well, items, skills, appearance, etc. I want a vast amount of creatures to fight, bosses to defeat, dungeons to explore, mountains to climb, people to talk with, quests to embark on, challenges to complete, items to gather as well as craft, weapons to fight with, armor and clothing to wear.
Bottom line is, you can never have too much.
Random generated content and even user created content is the future. Why it's not the present is beyond me. Random loot, bosses, dungeons, areas, etc. It needs to happen now.
Personally, I want a game where the GMs/devs have no problem with initiating a massive NPC raid event on a major city, at peak times, with no prior notification - and leveling the entire place should the players not win.
In a few words, dynamic changeable content, and developers that aren't afraid to surprise their playerbase.
P.S. You probably should just disregard my opinion though, since I'm both crazy and well aware that such an event would, in all likelihood, lead to financial disaster for any MMO.
A great sound score, To me yes I love some immersive music and sound effects.
What else? How about a step backwards. I dont need 1 million pointless tasks to keep track of (lets face it they are tasks, not quests. Quests actually mean something) EQ1 had quests. Epic quests, The Ring War. Things that took time and effort and teamwork to complete. Imagine that. People actually coming together to help someone other than themselves finish something. Things are different now. Now you have 100 go and kill mob tasks for rewards that everyone get.
Group Oriented. While I will agree everyone is connected these days. Being connected in an MMO is different. We are not just connnecting to facebook to talk about real life. We are coming together to experiance this grand Fantasy worlds and adventure thru them together. Today games are way to solo oriented, casual friendly they say.
What drew me to EQ1 back in the day was the friends I made. The challenges we faced and overcame. The adventure of exploring new areas, hoping that maybe some treasure (good loot) would drop, that one of us could use. Not haveing to worry about running into to town every 10 minutes to turn in some pointless task. But just going out and having hours of fun in some dungeon. Making new friends. Where PUGS were common place and not a dirty word.
I would take a game that is 90% group play any day over the MSPORPGs they are shovel feeding us today.
The main ideas I see coming forward, all more or less invoke a sandbox design.
Apparently players are tired of the theme-park design and don't like to be led through content. Others have said that they want to "matter" in the scope of the game world, and I think that harkens right back to "sandbox".
I agree with these players in terms of what I would want to play as well.
Let me see if I can organize this in terms of features.
QUESTS:
The quest system needs to be more than a just a manager for a million pathetic tasks that clutter up your tracker. Rewards need to be meaningful and dynamic. Personally I'm not entirely sold on the idea of even having a quest tracker in the conventional sense Either. A while back I quizzed a bunch of players on whether they Read the text for the quests, and unsurprisingly the majority of players do Not. I think there is some realization that the needs of a given NPC are fake needs. Nobody gives a crap Why little Susie needs 10 rat tails, they are only interested in getting the reward and advancing the quest chain. I doubt most players even read the quest requirements until its in their tracker. This in my opinion is a useless system, and to be honest it makes me feel less like I have direction but more that I am "behind" on my to-do list. Not to say games should be easy, but they shouldn't be about work.
THE WORLD:
The world needs to be dynamic and changeable, BUT at the direction of players, not just the devs. I can imagine a system where a player places his house in a jungle, but is also able to transform the terrain around his plot, chop vegetation, plant crops, flowerbeds, stack stones, raise or lower the terrain, etc. In the real world, humans can tunnel through mountains, build levees, remove forests, mine below the surface, etc. I think what the games are missing is a constructible / destructible aspect. If a player community wants to dig a moat around their town, they should be able to. If they want to build a bridge over a river, why not. Of course this idea requires a great deal of thought and planning; I'm not sure what you would do if you found the playerbase to be destructive to the point the game is unplayable. If PVP had its griefers, you'd certainly have your eco-terrorists in this haha. You could probably just have different rulesets for different zones and property ownership rules. The main thing is I want a living system where I can look and say "Oh isn't it interesting what the players are doing over here" versus trying to make sure everyone is conforming to my preconceived behavioral expectations. I don't want to be the police, I don't want to keep everyone in a box.
I am reminded of a time in UO when you could throw wooden crates on the ground and block monsters. We would build little barricades in the forest and pelt mobs with arrows. The GMs decided this was a bannable offense since the mobs were too stupid to walk around the crates. Of course we burned a 1000 arrows and bolts - it wasn't entirely profitable, BUT it was fun. We used some strategy, and those dumb GMs thought Hey you have to stand toe-to-toe ( we had range attacks!? ) and risk death. Using your brain wasn't apparently fair. I don't like this type of environment. If they didn't like the technique the onus is 100% on the developer to change the way their game operates. Instead they marshal GMs to go out and stomp heads of players ( who happen to be Enjoying their game ) over what was in retrospect a trivial issue. OK, rant over haha.
You know, one thing that I have noticed personally is that a lot of the new games are pretty cookie cutter in terms of how the various systems work. I'm talking mail systems, the auction system, the quest system, etc. Everything is a bleeping "system" and I see this as a design throwback to the fact games are being designed less by game designers, but more by database administrators, server programmers, etc. I understand the need for the game to work in technical terms and be efficient, but I think they lose sight of the "fun" factor and end up focusing on the need to have system X work; end up copying WoW and have not added anything innovative to their game.
I'm an independent game developer ( among other things ) and I just have to ask, what do players WANT nowadays?
I'm afraid that most of them want something that cannot be delivered--making MMOs fresh and new for someone who's been playing them for many years. You see a LOT of Jaded and Ennui/Burnout on this forum.
People tend to forget the flaws and problems with their First Game (whatever it was), but they remember the awe factor and how great that game was to play. Of course it was great, they were doing something new and there's always some excitement to that.
You can't give that back to them. All you can do is make the game you want to make and put your heart into it.
This is my best fall-back advice ( grab the bull by the horns ), but your other comment is also what I'm afraid of.
People are chasing their virgin MMO fix.
I never thought I'd be asking the question, but is it possible people can age "out" of gaming? Are some players just becoming to OLD to play?
I understand that. My point is that UO didn't have a quest system at ALL and yet the game was still fun. There were plenty of reasons to go to coordinate XY without an NPC directive. That said I do think there should be some kind of quest system in place, I'm just not convinced its necessary or even a good idea however to rely on that system to lead people through the game by the hand if it in fact makes the game theme-park.
I'm an independent game developer ( among other things ) and I just have to ask, what do players WANT nowadays?
I started MMOs with Ultima Online, but to this day I can't say I've really enjoyed playing anything else.
And of course if I went back to UO, the magic is no longer there, so speaking for myself I think I'm competing with my own nostalgia for something that just cannot be recreated.
It's no longer novel to simply be "online" with other people in a shared environment.
It's very difficult from a developers point of view to determine what is "fun" when you're burned out.
I know what I HATE, but I have trouble envisioning what kind of compelling and immersive experience that *I* want from a game anymore that would also appeal to others and earn revenue.
It's a crappy place to be if game development is your main skill set
Off hand I'd say I can appreciate sand box environments where the game play is emergent, non-linear, non-theme park, where the GM's aren't stormtroopers, secondary markets are accepted, where the game is more than just combat and PVP, and where the game world itself is more granular / atomic and interactive. But beyond that, I'm split on cartoonism versus realism, or what kind of novel features can be done that havent already been implemented elsewhere.
Curious what others thoughts are for their ideal game.
I cant speak for anyone but myself but I want a spiritual successor to Asherons Call.
I quit WoW back in March, went to Rift and although the game was polished and entertaining for a more casual person it and games like WoW jsut dont have that long term feel to it anymore, therefore I resigned myself to going back to AC. Ive been back for close to 3 months now and I still to this day enjoy every waking moment I am playing it. The problem is the subsciption numbers are way down, the graphics are an eye sore at times, the polish isnt as good as some of the newer age games. Plus not to mention it lacks a certain balance issue between magic and melee classes in both PvE and PvP. Still with all its negatives I cant ever imagine ever playing a game that doesnt have some of the most underrated sandbox elements thats never been seen in an MMO since.
Heres a short list of what I want in an MMO (Sandbox AC style)
1. WoW level of polish
2. Skill based classless system using a system EXACTLY like AC, every thing is experience based.
3. a HUGE explorable world (AC's is 500k sm)
4. No hand holding quest hub stuctured enviornment
5. Quests are plenty but you msut seek clues from town criers, Innkeepers, bar patrons, NPC's walking around and dungeons that are just there and its up to the intrepid explorer to search its depths for clues and treasures.
6. speaking of dungeons, ABSOLUTELY no instancing what so ever.
7. a Sandbox game with PvE combat in mind, I feel that the vast majority of sandbox games are niche because they cater to the crafter or the PvP'er.
8. PvP worlds seperate from PvE worlds much like Darktide and the white servers in AC
9. A crafting system that usses the AC style of item enhancement of random generated treasure. (A diablo + AC hybrid)
10. an allegiance/guild system that is similar to AC where by interaction between patrons and vassals offer lasting friendships and not just a group of people thrown together in the guild system like all the other MMO's. Its pretty awesome to have an excellent Patron that actively hunts and quests with you becasue he knows he is rewarded two-fold by having a friend and addiotional EXP pass up.
11. NO RAIDING: a quest based non traditional story arc focused endgame that starts at character creation, exactly like AC.
12. Combat system similar to WoW's but with no auto attacks.
13. building on AC's skill based system I would like to see the skills further diversified instead of having War Magic, Life Magic, Creature Magic and Item Magic break it down even further to its baser elementalist schools such as Fire magic etc.
14. a hotbar system that is similar to Guildwars 1 where only a certain specific humber of skills and be equipped and its the choice of the player to find the right mix of skills/spells to carry into battle.
Im sure there are tons more but basically I want to Marry WoW's combat and polish into an Asherons Call skin.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I'm an independent game developer ( among other things ) and I just have to ask, what do players WANT nowadays?
I'm afraid that most of them want something that cannot be delivered--making MMOs fresh and new for someone who's been playing them for many years. You see a LOT of Jaded and Ennui/Burnout on this forum.
People tend to forget the flaws and problems with their First Game (whatever it was), but they remember the awe factor and how great that game was to play. Of course it was great, they were doing something new and there's always some excitement to that.
You can't give that back to them. All you can do is make the game you want to make and put your heart into it.
This is my best fall-back advice ( grab the bull by the horns ), but your other comment is also what I'm afraid of.
People are chasing their virgin MMO fix.
I never thought I'd be asking the question, but is it possible people can age "out" of gaming? Are some players just becoming to OLD to play?
I sure hope not. I've been gaming most of my adult life (heck there weren't even video games until I was in college) and at 53 I'm still going strong. (and I'm not alone).
Can people get tired of playing the same old thing over and over, most certainly, and there's times these days when I feel exactly like that, burned out from the last 10 years of MMORPG's, especially in recent years when nothing really surprises me. But I don't feel that comes from my physical age, more of the lack of imagination in recent design.
Of course we're chasing the "virigin" fix, but that's because we need something new and different to impress us. My first MMORPG Lineage 1 amazed me, but then I went to DAOC and was even more amazed, because it was so different from the first.
Didn't stop; there, went on to Shadowbane, and despite it's issues, was again amazed at the overall design, and from there back to DAOC's FFA servers which were yet another different experience from the blue servers.
Then I think I went to Lineage 2, quite a bit different than Lineage 1 or anything else I'd experienced before (but sort of proved that different isn't always better, expecially its horrific grind) and then to a really new and different title that I thoroughly enjoyed for about 18 months, World of Warcraft. (I think I gave DDO a whirl in between WOW stints but didn't care for its design)
But then the wheels fell off.
I don't remember the order any more, but after leaving WOW I played Vanguard, LotRO, AOC, Rift, Alganon and some F2P titles and hit a new phenomenon, they all felt like WOW. No, seriously, despite their various improvements I found that most titles were really just virtual "cousins" to WOW and I was already tired of the model. Worse yet, even some older titles such as DAOC or SWG started adding WOW-like features to "improve them" which only ruined them permanently in my eyes.
Fortunately I ran into EVE which was so much different than the others (my first sandbox/sandpark) and it blew me away with over 3 years of gameplay. (some of which was broken up by titles such as AOC) I found the magic once again so it is possible for that feeling to come back if a MMORPG is sufficiently different from what currently exists.
Strangely enough, I just gave EQ2 a go, and while it certainly has the quest driven tread mill in it, (and raiding at the end) I am enjoying the fact it contains some complexity and game mechanics that have been largely dropped from recent titles.
Unlike Rift, which I knew how to play almost completely in the first 2 weeks, and burned out on in 6 weeks, EQ2 is actually baffleing at times, and I find myself having to look things up, ask questions and plain just puzzle through things which I haven't had to do in quite some time.
So the answer isnt to give up, the challenge is to convince an investor group that a cool new idea has traction in the market place and deserves a chance as opposed to creating yet another version of the standard theme park model.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I understand that. My point is that UO didn't have a quest system at ALL and yet the game was still fun. There were plenty of reasons to go to coordinate XY without an NPC directive. That said I do think there should be some kind of quest system in place, I'm just not convinced its necessary or even a good idea however to rely on that system to lead people through the game by the hand if it in fact makes the game theme-park.
It would be interesting to combine exploring with the quest system.
The technology exists to add quests to the log without consulting an NPC--make quests area-triggered. You wander into the edge of the Dark Forest (yawn, another evil forest), and catch the message about those evil satyrs you need to kill. Moving deeper into the forest, you begin to discover clues to a much more sinister plot taking place than first appeared (another quest appears), and stumble upon prisoners (rescue them!). Oop, there's a boss here (ding)...etc.
Of course you'll occaisionally run into an area that's far over your head level-wise, and you will get your butt kicked for entering that Dark Forest with a L2--but that's all part of the game. Learn when to run.
The problem with the idea is how many quests get "missed", of course, and how much extra quest density would need to be added.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Jackie28, the problem with MMORPGs is that they are a mixture of many mechanics and concepts. I can tell you that I'd like to be in a world where players are set free and there's no hand holding but then you might take this concept which is great but you'd end up mixing it with other things that would tick me off.. like forced-soloing, lack of player interaction and a crappy combat system.
MMORPGs are like cooking. If you try to please everyone you'd end up with something un-edible. Instead a designer should orchestrate everything together with a vision of how this world should be. Do not compromise and create a world that works well together. Unfortunately most designers now adays have EXTREMELY shallow vision and no original concept whatsoever. The innovatiosn by far are just how to wrap the piece of turd. It's still a turd no matter what wrap you use. For instance Rift bragged about "Rifts" and how dynamic they are.. but the game ended up being EXACTLY the same game experience of many other MMORPGs.
There are no game designers which would shock me with a really "unique" gaming experience. Rich world that we struggle to survive in. Everything is new and nothing taken from another game. You need a man who lived in a cave all his life and ask them to create an MMORPG. We don't want to see the same Auction House again. We don't want to see that exclamation mark. We don't want to be spoon fed. We don't want easy content. We don't want to see instances. We want a unique world experience in a world that we respect because it's freaking dangerous which would require a lot of player interaction to survive.
I can design a game from scratch. I can design a game with every single detail. I can design the MMORPG that I want from the concept of economy to combat. Every single detail I have written in a document for myself which I collected during the last 7 years. Even the stats system, classes, lore, deity worship, economy (real economy, monsters dont drop currency), Thieves stealing at night in the city and players may work as guards to capture these thieves.. such game concepts, new innovative ideas which creates WORLDS, Community and adventure.
Such concepts are never easy to deliver in a forum. You need sessions of brain storming and for me I do have a huge document of my fantasy MMORPG. There's no easy answer to your question Jackie28 but I can only advise you of just not compromising and have a vision and make it come true.
Comments
Take the gathering / crafting system from SWG pre NGE.
Take the RvR system from DAoC.
Add in a Allegiance type system from Asheron's Call.
Govern different "regions" in your world like they do in EvE with High Security, Medium and No (0.0).
Let players claim and hold land.
Get rid of mini-maps and questionmarks over quest givers.
Only have a handfull of quest givers. The power of the word "quest" makes a comeback to actually meaning something special. Quests would be randomized...and I do mean randomized.
Reinstate players having NPC vendors that are setup inside/outside their personal houses. No Auction Hall.
Those are a few I would start with. My game would not be aimed for people who have ever uttered the phrase "I don't need a second job" or for those that want to buy their way (no item mall) or for those who seek "end game" or just want to hurry up and "win it so they can jump to the next big thing". The reward / sense of accomplishment you get from my game would in large part correlate to how much time you invest in it.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
My short answer would be...surprise me. How you ask? Well you could do it a couple of ways.
1) Bring back some of the playing mechanics from past MMO's that are no longer in favor such as Shadowbane's looting system, or DAOC's 3 faction RVR but be sure to include some element of territiory control to give us something to fight for.
2) Create something all new, see Citadel of Sorcery for a title that really is promising something different, even if it sometimes sounds too good to be true.
3) Control the gameplay experience with active and swift moderation and don't be afraid to kick asshats out of the game world indefinitely.
4) Make sure that no matter what style of PVP you go for make sure each player can easily limit (not eliminate) their level of risk.
5) Be sure to include gameplay mechanics that strongly encourage players to interact and make sure there are tools in place to make it easier to do so. (And no, this does not mean add a cross server dungeon finder) 6) Do not assume that anything Blizzard did is the only right way to do things in MMO's. On the converse, do not assume just because Blizzard did something it is automatically bad, it may have been the perfect answer for their particular design and target audience.
edit: stupid "smart" phone only let's me reply in a wall of text, so parsed it for clarity
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A massive multiplayer online role playing game.
And I still struggle to find ones xP
FEEL THE FULL
FREE-TO-FLAME
FANTASY.
Very good point.
It actually reminds me of a conversation/argument I had with some of the Shadowbane team a few years ago back when the games population was at its peak. The general attitude was "screw the casuals (carebears in those days) this is a hard core game". Which I can understand and agree with, but my point was why can't an MMO support both types of players? Their answer was such a thing was not possible because it would essentially require two entirely seperate games. An opinion I felt was about half bullshit. Some games have tried this idea to an extent, Eve with its secure to lawless zones, and old school SWG with its neutral/covert/overt PVP system. Those seemed to work pretty well and they let those that want to life dangerously do so without much troubling those of a mellower outlook. I do not think the idea that one game can suport two very different player types (and the varying degrees in between) is impossible.
So what I want is for game companies to stop trying to court only one type of MMO player and attempt to create a game world that would allow for more than one style of gaming. So far it looks like Archage is the only game attempting this idea.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Just make an MMO called chain mail bikini babes with boob physics and I think you'll do quite well.
I want options. These days it seems developers are just making a game the way they think people should play it. Instead, especially for an MMORPG, they need to make a world with a ton of options and then let the players just go nuts and do whatever they can imagine up. Options, options, options. That's the key.
I'm a huge progression guy for games. I want to create a character, or characters, and wander the world fighting, exploring, building. I want a vast amount of character customization options, not just before playing, but during as well, items, skills, appearance, etc. I want a vast amount of creatures to fight, bosses to defeat, dungeons to explore, mountains to climb, people to talk with, quests to embark on, challenges to complete, items to gather as well as craft, weapons to fight with, armor and clothing to wear.
Bottom line is, you can never have too much.
Random generated content and even user created content is the future. Why it's not the present is beyond me. Random loot, bosses, dungeons, areas, etc. It needs to happen now.
Personally, I want a game where the GMs/devs have no problem with initiating a massive NPC raid event on a major city, at peak times, with no prior notification - and leveling the entire place should the players not win.
In a few words, dynamic changeable content, and developers that aren't afraid to surprise their playerbase.
P.S. You probably should just disregard my opinion though, since I'm both crazy and well aware that such an event would, in all likelihood, lead to financial disaster for any MMO.
Good luck in your endeavors though.
What do I want as a player.
Good Graphics, sure
Fun Gameplay, of coarse
A great sound score, To me yes I love some immersive music and sound effects.
What else? How about a step backwards. I dont need 1 million pointless tasks to keep track of (lets face it they are tasks, not quests. Quests actually mean something) EQ1 had quests. Epic quests, The Ring War. Things that took time and effort and teamwork to complete. Imagine that. People actually coming together to help someone other than themselves finish something. Things are different now. Now you have 100 go and kill mob tasks for rewards that everyone get.
Group Oriented. While I will agree everyone is connected these days. Being connected in an MMO is different. We are not just connnecting to facebook to talk about real life. We are coming together to experiance this grand Fantasy worlds and adventure thru them together. Today games are way to solo oriented, casual friendly they say.
What drew me to EQ1 back in the day was the friends I made. The challenges we faced and overcame. The adventure of exploring new areas, hoping that maybe some treasure (good loot) would drop, that one of us could use. Not haveing to worry about running into to town every 10 minutes to turn in some pointless task. But just going out and having hours of fun in some dungeon. Making new friends. Where PUGS were common place and not a dirty word.
I would take a game that is 90% group play any day over the MSPORPGs they are shovel feeding us today.
These are the things I want.
I want to have value to the other players around me beyond my characters' statistics.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Been reading all of this.
The main ideas I see coming forward, all more or less invoke a sandbox design.
Apparently players are tired of the theme-park design and don't like to be led through content. Others have said that they want to "matter" in the scope of the game world, and I think that harkens right back to "sandbox".
I agree with these players in terms of what I would want to play as well.
Let me see if I can organize this in terms of features.
QUESTS:
The quest system needs to be more than a just a manager for a million pathetic tasks that clutter up your tracker. Rewards need to be meaningful and dynamic. Personally I'm not entirely sold on the idea of even having a quest tracker in the conventional sense Either. A while back I quizzed a bunch of players on whether they Read the text for the quests, and unsurprisingly the majority of players do Not. I think there is some realization that the needs of a given NPC are fake needs. Nobody gives a crap Why little Susie needs 10 rat tails, they are only interested in getting the reward and advancing the quest chain. I doubt most players even read the quest requirements until its in their tracker.
This in my opinion is a useless system, and to be honest it makes me feel less like I have direction but more that I am "behind" on my to-do list. Not to say games should be easy, but they shouldn't be about work.
THE WORLD:
The world needs to be dynamic and changeable, BUT at the direction of players, not just the devs. I can imagine a system where a player places his house in a jungle, but is also able to transform the terrain around his plot, chop vegetation, plant crops, flowerbeds, stack stones, raise or lower the terrain, etc. In the real world, humans can tunnel through mountains, build levees, remove forests, mine below the surface, etc. I think what the games are missing is a constructible / destructible aspect. If a player community wants to dig a moat around their town, they should be able to. If they want to build a bridge over a river, why not. Of course this idea requires a great deal of thought and planning; I'm not sure what you would do if you found the playerbase to be destructive to the point the game is unplayable. If PVP had its griefers, you'd certainly have your eco-terrorists in this haha. You could probably just have different rulesets for different zones and property ownership rules. The main thing is I want a living system where I can look and say "Oh isn't it interesting what the players are doing over here" versus trying to make sure everyone is conforming to my preconceived behavioral expectations. I don't want to be the police, I don't want to keep everyone in a box.
I am reminded of a time in UO when you could throw wooden crates on the ground and block monsters. We would build little barricades in the forest and pelt mobs with arrows. The GMs decided this was a bannable offense since the mobs were too stupid to walk around the crates. Of course we burned a 1000 arrows and bolts - it wasn't entirely profitable, BUT it was fun. We used some strategy, and those dumb GMs thought Hey you have to stand toe-to-toe ( we had range attacks!? ) and risk death. Using your brain wasn't apparently fair. I don't like this type of environment. If they didn't like the technique the onus is 100% on the developer to change the way their game operates. Instead they marshal GMs to go out and stomp heads of players ( who happen to be Enjoying their game ) over what was in retrospect a trivial issue. OK, rant over haha.
You know, one thing that I have noticed personally is that a lot of the new games are pretty cookie cutter in terms of how the various systems work. I'm talking mail systems, the auction system, the quest system, etc. Everything is a bleeping "system" and I see this as a design throwback to the fact games are being designed less by game designers, but more by database administrators, server programmers, etc. I understand the need for the game to work in technical terms and be efficient, but I think they lose sight of the "fun" factor and end up focusing on the need to have system X work; end up copying WoW and have not added anything innovative to their game.
This is my best fall-back advice ( grab the bull by the horns ), but your other comment is also what I'm afraid of.
People are chasing their virgin MMO fix.
I never thought I'd be asking the question, but is it possible people can age "out" of gaming? Are some players just becoming to OLD to play?
Sorry, but to say it is the quest system that makes people not care about the quest is just flat out false.
Any 'game designer' can tell you that the quest system hasn't changed from the D&D days till now.
Mechanically it is Talk to NPC -> Go XYZ -> Do 123
Whether this is a 'sandbox' game like Fallout/ElderScrolls or a 'themepark' game like Dragon Age.
A game designer's job is to make sure the pieces fall into place so that the quest system is actually something the player wants to do.
In DA:O, I went to location X, did Y, and I had a really good time.
In Fallout/ES I went to location X, did Y, and also had a really good time.
In WoW, I went to location X, did Y, but didn't really enjoy the quests.
Step 1 is to figure out why and Step 2 is to how you change it.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I understand that. My point is that UO didn't have a quest system at ALL and yet the game was still fun. There were plenty of reasons to go to coordinate XY without an NPC directive. That said I do think there should be some kind of quest system in place, I'm just not convinced its necessary or even a good idea however to rely on that system to lead people through the game by the hand if it in fact makes the game theme-park.
And why did you find it fun?
Was it the music + the immersion?
Was it the community where you made friends?
Was it because it supported RP and you like to RP?
Was it knowing there was still stuff to be discovered because there wasn't a website that told you all the answers?
If the answer to 'why I found this to be fun' has nothing to do with the quest system, ditch the quest system.
If you think it can enchance the 'fun' by having a quest system, think how you can use it.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I cant speak for anyone but myself but I want a spiritual successor to Asherons Call.
I quit WoW back in March, went to Rift and although the game was polished and entertaining for a more casual person it and games like WoW jsut dont have that long term feel to it anymore, therefore I resigned myself to going back to AC. Ive been back for close to 3 months now and I still to this day enjoy every waking moment I am playing it. The problem is the subsciption numbers are way down, the graphics are an eye sore at times, the polish isnt as good as some of the newer age games. Plus not to mention it lacks a certain balance issue between magic and melee classes in both PvE and PvP. Still with all its negatives I cant ever imagine ever playing a game that doesnt have some of the most underrated sandbox elements thats never been seen in an MMO since.
Heres a short list of what I want in an MMO (Sandbox AC style)
1. WoW level of polish
2. Skill based classless system using a system EXACTLY like AC, every thing is experience based.
3. a HUGE explorable world (AC's is 500k sm)
4. No hand holding quest hub stuctured enviornment
5. Quests are plenty but you msut seek clues from town criers, Innkeepers, bar patrons, NPC's walking around and dungeons that are just there and its up to the intrepid explorer to search its depths for clues and treasures.
6. speaking of dungeons, ABSOLUTELY no instancing what so ever.
7. a Sandbox game with PvE combat in mind, I feel that the vast majority of sandbox games are niche because they cater to the crafter or the PvP'er.
8. PvP worlds seperate from PvE worlds much like Darktide and the white servers in AC
9. A crafting system that usses the AC style of item enhancement of random generated treasure. (A diablo + AC hybrid)
10. an allegiance/guild system that is similar to AC where by interaction between patrons and vassals offer lasting friendships and not just a group of people thrown together in the guild system like all the other MMO's. Its pretty awesome to have an excellent Patron that actively hunts and quests with you becasue he knows he is rewarded two-fold by having a friend and addiotional EXP pass up.
11. NO RAIDING: a quest based non traditional story arc focused endgame that starts at character creation, exactly like AC.
12. Combat system similar to WoW's but with no auto attacks.
13. building on AC's skill based system I would like to see the skills further diversified instead of having War Magic, Life Magic, Creature Magic and Item Magic break it down even further to its baser elementalist schools such as Fire magic etc.
14. a hotbar system that is similar to Guildwars 1 where only a certain specific humber of skills and be equipped and its the choice of the player to find the right mix of skills/spells to carry into battle.
Im sure there are tons more but basically I want to Marry WoW's combat and polish into an Asherons Call skin.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I sure hope not. I've been gaming most of my adult life (heck there weren't even video games until I was in college) and at 53 I'm still going strong. (and I'm not alone).
Can people get tired of playing the same old thing over and over, most certainly, and there's times these days when I feel exactly like that, burned out from the last 10 years of MMORPG's, especially in recent years when nothing really surprises me. But I don't feel that comes from my physical age, more of the lack of imagination in recent design.
Of course we're chasing the "virigin" fix, but that's because we need something new and different to impress us. My first MMORPG Lineage 1 amazed me, but then I went to DAOC and was even more amazed, because it was so different from the first.
Didn't stop; there, went on to Shadowbane, and despite it's issues, was again amazed at the overall design, and from there back to DAOC's FFA servers which were yet another different experience from the blue servers.
Then I think I went to Lineage 2, quite a bit different than Lineage 1 or anything else I'd experienced before (but sort of proved that different isn't always better, expecially its horrific grind) and then to a really new and different title that I thoroughly enjoyed for about 18 months, World of Warcraft. (I think I gave DDO a whirl in between WOW stints but didn't care for its design)
But then the wheels fell off.
I don't remember the order any more, but after leaving WOW I played Vanguard, LotRO, AOC, Rift, Alganon and some F2P titles and hit a new phenomenon, they all felt like WOW. No, seriously, despite their various improvements I found that most titles were really just virtual "cousins" to WOW and I was already tired of the model. Worse yet, even some older titles such as DAOC or SWG started adding WOW-like features to "improve them" which only ruined them permanently in my eyes.
Fortunately I ran into EVE which was so much different than the others (my first sandbox/sandpark) and it blew me away with over 3 years of gameplay. (some of which was broken up by titles such as AOC) I found the magic once again so it is possible for that feeling to come back if a MMORPG is sufficiently different from what currently exists.
Strangely enough, I just gave EQ2 a go, and while it certainly has the quest driven tread mill in it, (and raiding at the end) I am enjoying the fact it contains some complexity and game mechanics that have been largely dropped from recent titles.
Unlike Rift, which I knew how to play almost completely in the first 2 weeks, and burned out on in 6 weeks, EQ2 is actually baffleing at times, and I find myself having to look things up, ask questions and plain just puzzle through things which I haven't had to do in quite some time.
So the answer isnt to give up, the challenge is to convince an investor group that a cool new idea has traction in the market place and deserves a chance as opposed to creating yet another version of the standard theme park model.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It would be interesting to combine exploring with the quest system.
The technology exists to add quests to the log without consulting an NPC--make quests area-triggered. You wander into the edge of the Dark Forest (yawn, another evil forest), and catch the message about those evil satyrs you need to kill. Moving deeper into the forest, you begin to discover clues to a much more sinister plot taking place than first appeared (another quest appears), and stumble upon prisoners (rescue them!). Oop, there's a boss here (ding)...etc.
Of course you'll occaisionally run into an area that's far over your head level-wise, and you will get your butt kicked for entering that Dark Forest with a L2--but that's all part of the game. Learn when to run.
The problem with the idea is how many quests get "missed", of course, and how much extra quest density would need to be added.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Jackie28, the problem with MMORPGs is that they are a mixture of many mechanics and concepts. I can tell you that I'd like to be in a world where players are set free and there's no hand holding but then you might take this concept which is great but you'd end up mixing it with other things that would tick me off.. like forced-soloing, lack of player interaction and a crappy combat system.
MMORPGs are like cooking. If you try to please everyone you'd end up with something un-edible. Instead a designer should orchestrate everything together with a vision of how this world should be. Do not compromise and create a world that works well together. Unfortunately most designers now adays have EXTREMELY shallow vision and no original concept whatsoever. The innovatiosn by far are just how to wrap the piece of turd. It's still a turd no matter what wrap you use. For instance Rift bragged about "Rifts" and how dynamic they are.. but the game ended up being EXACTLY the same game experience of many other MMORPGs.
There are no game designers which would shock me with a really "unique" gaming experience. Rich world that we struggle to survive in. Everything is new and nothing taken from another game. You need a man who lived in a cave all his life and ask them to create an MMORPG. We don't want to see the same Auction House again. We don't want to see that exclamation mark. We don't want to be spoon fed. We don't want easy content. We don't want to see instances. We want a unique world experience in a world that we respect because it's freaking dangerous which would require a lot of player interaction to survive.
I can design a game from scratch. I can design a game with every single detail. I can design the MMORPG that I want from the concept of economy to combat. Every single detail I have written in a document for myself which I collected during the last 7 years. Even the stats system, classes, lore, deity worship, economy (real economy, monsters dont drop currency), Thieves stealing at night in the city and players may work as guards to capture these thieves.. such game concepts, new innovative ideas which creates WORLDS, Community and adventure.
Such concepts are never easy to deliver in a forum. You need sessions of brain storming and for me I do have a huge document of my fantasy MMORPG. There's no easy answer to your question Jackie28 but I can only advise you of just not compromising and have a vision and make it come true.