1. FFA PVP - Sorry, I don't like losing the things I work for and that make the game fun. PVP should be about the battles not the gear/loot.
2. Lack of things to do. Don't be afraid to put a storyline in that is competely optional or make grinding skills be more interactive and less about grind.
that's all I have right now.
When you say FFA I guess you mean full-loot by the way you talk about losing stuff. Full loot is a very important feature for a sandbox since it feeds industry and it adds risk to the PvP.
In my opinion we have great examples of successful and popular sandboxes out there. The main problem with Sandboxes is that they're targeting a much smaller audience than themeparks. Also, they use to be delivered by indie and smaller studios and that's noticeable in the product offered. Sometimes it feels rushed, other times it suffers from design oversights.
But fear not, I see the sandbox peeps as a natural evolution from the themepark peeps. Bigger studios are focusing already in this growing market (like SOE and their planetside2).
We have great examples of FFA Full Loot MMOs that are successfull? Really? Name one FFA Full Loot MMO that has come on in the last 7 years that has been a success. Ill wait here......
Eve Online.
Personally, I think what is holding back many sandox MMO's is just lack of funds. There are many great ideas out there and some talented developers, but unfortunately the people with money are still trying to cash in on what WoW had. People are afraid to pump money into something that might be innovative, at least it seems that way to me in the MMO industry at the moment.
I have been playing EVE Online for about two years total and not once have I been attacked in hi sec space. That don't seem to FFA to me. I guess it depends on how you interpret FFA PVP.
I feel the second part of your post is spot on. Without money it's hard to put out a quality game let alone support it.
But the possibility of being attacked in hi sec is always there. It just so happens that the consequences for doing so are extreme enough that most people aren't going to bother unless it's really worth it. The other FFA PvP games essientially have no sort of consequence for unmitigated PvP.
-------- "Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt: Front: UNO Chemistry Club Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
They charge too much for the quality they offer and for the state the game is in, plus the number of people working on them is low so it is not like they have to pay a huge developing team.
No i'm not cheap.This is the truth.
Your way off, and so are a lot of other people above me, in fact I would argue that 99% of the above posters are wrong, the real reason that current sandbox mmo's suck has nothing to do with them being sandbox and everything to do with the developer.
These days its only small indie(less experianced or funded) teams that have the balls or lack of brains to take on a sand box mmo, and before some one yells EvE and CCP, they were that small company at the start they just happen to have been successfull sadly most others are not.
Look at darkfall it sucks in terms of quality, its nothing to do with it being a sandbox its the development team lack the funding and skills to really make the artwork and design shine.
So please dont blame the genre, blame the developers, and their lack of skill or funds.
They charge too much for the quality they offer and for the state the game is in, plus the number of people working on them is low so it is not like they have to pay a huge developing team.
No i'm not cheap.This is the truth.
Duh.
Yes, games made with a low budget and limited resources seldom do as good as games made by experienced devs, well funded companies and publishers that affords advertising.
While there are exceptions this goes for all computer games except for facebook and phone games.
But lowering the price of an underfunded buggy mess wont help much at all. I still only can game that much every day and I tend to put that time into games that actually works, egven if that costs me 10 extra bucks each months.
The only 2 successful examples of a really small company making a good MMORPG/CORPG the last 10 years is Eve and Guildwars. And Eve were not so great at launch. The thing that differs CCP and ANET from companies like Star vault is that they actually have AAA programmers, that is the minimum you need for a successful game.
By this logic will the next sucdcessful sandbox be World of darkness online, they have competent people working on it.
But quality is more important than numbers. Both Guildwars and Mortal online were coded by 3 people. The difference is that the 3 people that coded GW was very experinced and good on their job, the 3 that coded MO were amateurs.
Warhammer online was made by a huge team and it still failed, yeah it's not a sandbox but it proves that numbers insät everything, that had 20 times as many people as made Guildwars on it and still did GW get in more money and have more players.
Great game needs great progremmers, that is the minimum requirement. The indie games that makes small sandbox games never have that. People blame a whole lot of things including casual players for the fact that indie sandboxes rarely gets many players but badly codedthemeparks never gets that many players either.
To make a huge sandbox games you need good programmers, a good budget and fun ideas.
1. FFA PVP - Sorry, I don't like losing the things I work for and that make the game fun. PVP should be about the battles not the gear/loot.
2. Lack of things to do. Don't be afraid to put a storyline in that is competely optional or make grinding skills be more interactive and less about grind.
that's all I have right now.
Yup, those are the two core issues with sandboxes.
Solve them, and we could actually have a pretty fun sandbox MMORPG. Til then, they're hollow shells of what they could be.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
They charge too much for the quality they offer and for the state the game is in, plus the number of people working on them is low so it is not like they have to pay a huge developing team.
No i'm not cheap.This is the truth.
Why make a topic about this is beyond me?
Are they forcing you to play cheap sandbox games?
Think not so stick to your themeparks and let us sandbox players enjoy the game style we love and you stick to yours no need to try put sandbox in negative light so your precious themepark is safe:P
Why so many here whine so much about free for all pvp with full loot?
All who hate dont play such games then, so why you keep saying this on forums is beyond me, feel threatened?
Darkfall full loot work perfectly its rather easy to get and if you play smart and bank regualry and have plenty spare its no big deal at all.
All who buy games like Darkfall can never whine or complain about full loot or free for all, jou bought the game so take it like man or dont buy it seems simple to me, when buy you know what you get yourself into right?
If you still whine im so happy you wasted your money on a game you dont like, i love this :P
Plenty of choices out there to choose from and when you hate free for all keep away from games like Darkfall and dont come to forums saying you hate while you dont even play it, give small indie companys at least chance to survive, so pls stick to your themeparks pls thank you.
Darkfall is a very good game for nich market those who like freedom in a mmo and hardcore full loot pvp.
Why so many here whine so much about free for all pvp with full loot?
All who hate dont play such games then, so why you keep saying this on forums is beyond me, feel threatened?
Darkfall full loot work perfectly its rather easy to get and if you play smart and bank regualry and have plenty spare its no big deal at all.
All who buy games like Darkfall can never whine or complain about full loot or free for all, jou bought the game so take it like man or dont buy it seems simple to me, when buy you know what you get yourself into right?
If you still whine im so happy you wasted your money on a game you dont like, i love this :P
Plenty of choices out there to choose from and when you hate free for all keep away from games like Darkfall and dont come to forums saying you hate while you dont even play it, give small indie companys at least chance to survive, so pls stick to your themeparks pls thank you.
Darkfall is a very good game for nich market those who like freedom in a mmo and hardcore full loot pvp.
No ones whining about playing games with FFA and full loot... they're complaining that there is a lack of sandbox games WITHOUT those to play. Sandbox =/= FFA and full loot.
Why so many here whine so much about free for all pvp with full loot?
All who hate dont play such games then, so why you keep saying this on forums is beyond me, feel threatened?
Darkfall full loot work perfectly its rather easy to get and if you play smart and bank regualry and have plenty spare its no big deal at all.
All who buy games like Darkfall can never whine or complain about full loot or free for all, jou bought the game so take it like man or dont buy it seems simple to me, when buy you know what you get yourself into right?
If you still whine im so happy you wasted your money on a game you dont like, i love this :P
Plenty of choices out there to choose from and when you hate free for all keep away from games like Darkfall and dont come to forums saying you hate while you dont even play it, give small indie companys at least chance to survive, so pls stick to your themeparks pls thank you.
Darkfall is a very good game for nich market those who like freedom in a mmo and hardcore full loot pvp.
No ones whining about playing games with FFA and full loot... they're complaining that there is a lack of sandbox games WITHOUT those to play. Sandbox =/= FFA and full loot.
I would be willing to bet a sizeable amount that if a game like Darkfall made a seperate server with the same game just took away the FFA PvP and removed full loot and turned it into a consentual PvP flagging system, they would double their subscriptions in less than six months.
Keep the FFA server that they have now, just make an additional one without. I'd play it without giving it a second thought.
Why so many here whine so much about free for all pvp with full loot?
All who hate dont play such games then, so why you keep saying this on forums is beyond me, feel threatened?
Darkfall full loot work perfectly its rather easy to get and if you play smart and bank regualry and have plenty spare its no big deal at all.
All who buy games like Darkfall can never whine or complain about full loot or free for all, jou bought the game so take it like man or dont buy it seems simple to me, when buy you know what you get yourself into right?
If you still whine im so happy you wasted your money on a game you dont like, i love this :P
Plenty of choices out there to choose from and when you hate free for all keep away from games like Darkfall and dont come to forums saying you hate while you dont even play it, give small indie companys at least chance to survive, so pls stick to your themeparks pls thank you.
Darkfall is a very good game for nich market those who like freedom in a mmo and hardcore full loot pvp.
No ones whining about playing games with FFA and full loot... they're complaining that there is a lack of sandbox games WITHOUT those to play. Sandbox =/= FFA and full loot.
I would be willing to bet a sizeable amount that if a game like Darkfall made a seperate server with the same game just took away the FFA PvP and removed full loot and turned it into a consentual PvP flagging system, they would double their subscriptions in less than six months.
Keep the FFA server that they have now, just make an additional one without. I'd play it without giving it a second thought.
They might gain a fair amount of PvE players but they might also lose some players because the hardcore dudez wouldn't have anyone to pick on except eachother. I think their current players would scream bloody murder or TRAMMEL!
Most indie studios just plainly fail to "launch". Plain and simple. Launch a robust enough entertainment game that has a more open world, yet tiered pvp environment like eve.
Why so many here whine so much about free for all pvp with full loot?
All who hate dont play such games then, so why you keep saying this on forums is beyond me, feel threatened?
Darkfall full loot work perfectly its rather easy to get and if you play smart and bank regualry and have plenty spare its no big deal at all.
All who buy games like Darkfall can never whine or complain about full loot or free for all, jou bought the game so take it like man or dont buy it seems simple to me, when buy you know what you get yourself into right?
If you still whine im so happy you wasted your money on a game you dont like, i love this :P
Plenty of choices out there to choose from and when you hate free for all keep away from games like Darkfall and dont come to forums saying you hate while you dont even play it, give small indie companys at least chance to survive, so pls stick to your themeparks pls thank you.
Darkfall is a very good game for nich market those who like freedom in a mmo and hardcore full loot pvp.
No ones whining about playing games with FFA and full loot... they're complaining that there is a lack of sandbox games WITHOUT those to play. Sandbox =/= FFA and full loot.
I would be willing to bet a sizeable amount that if a game like Darkfall made a seperate server with the same game just took away the FFA PvP and removed full loot and turned it into a consentual PvP flagging system, they would double their subscriptions in less than six months.
Keep the FFA server that they have now, just make an additional one without. I'd play it without giving it a second thought.
They might gain a fair amount of PvE players but they might also lose some players because the hardcore dudez wouldn't have anyone to pick on except eachother. I think their current players would scream bloody murder or TRAMMEL!
My knee-jerk reaction is that I do not like having seperate servers for FFA-PvP and consensual PvP, but that's because I want a game like Eve--one where everyone is on the same server with the same rule-set. I'd rather see the game universe segregated based on gameplay mechanics, much like how Eve has relative safe zones (I've never been attacked in hi-sec) and lawless zones were players, instead of NPCs, control territory. I want a game were a player's choices affect more than just their stats.
I do acknowledge, however, that games such as Darkfall et. al. would likely benefit from having two different rule-type servers, though Darkfall itself would probably benefit more from having better item/equipment/skill balances, and content that wasn't just grinding mobs all day.
-------- "Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt: Front: UNO Chemistry Club Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
I love sandbox. I hate PvP. Give me SWG pre CU or something similar and I would be happy as hell. Nothing exists like that right now - Archeage and SWTOR are not going to be it either.
1. FFA PVP - Sorry, I don't like losing the things I work for and that make the game fun. PVP should be about the battles not the gear/loot.
2. Lack of things to do. Don't be afraid to put a storyline in that is competely optional or make grinding skills be more interactive and less about grind.
that's all I have right now.
When you say FFA I guess you mean full-loot by the way you talk about losing stuff. Full loot is a very important feature for a sandbox since it feeds industry and it adds risk to the PvP.
Short of Eve the only 100k plus sub sandbox was SWG. It didn't have full loot. It didn't need it. It had stuff to do that was player generated.
Full loot is only there because devs can't and won't take the time to make a truly immersive world. So far we've had 2 maybe 3(UO is the third) all made pre-WOW. So it seems developers need to get back to the basics, what the majority of forum posters on this forum seem to agree on. Why can't it just be full inventory loot? How about a "value" percentage based on character level? There are many ways to determine this other than full loot. Maybe developers need to focus on a lot more and actually figure out how to put out a good sandbox style game. Galaxies pre-NGE was both since it had a storyline quest for factions and such. Eve (I haven't played it as its combat style deters me, but it has a ton of stuff to do and live in the world) All these other sandbox games can come up with is kill or be killed with the rest tacked on as extra. Maybe they should tack the pvp element on as extra.
I love sandbox. I hate PvP. Give me SWG pre CU or something similar and I would be happy as hell. Nothing exists like that right now - Archeage and SWTOR are not going to be it either.
The closest I have found to Pre-CU SWG is Entropia Universe. It's like SWG on steroids, nothing is easy though, and I mean nothing, but it is a true sandbox.
And since they revamped the graphics using the CryEngine it is pure eyecandy, I haven't seen an MMO that can out do it's graphics currently.
Sandbox games by nature are more complex and have way too many variables. Just being able to plant a house on the game map instantly means there's a hundred things that can go wrong or be abused by jackwagons looking for an exploit(and there's alot of you out there).
PVP...that's a completely different mindset from someone trying to craft goods to sell on the market. Most PVP mouthbreathers are too stupid to care about crafting and are looking for a bug to exploit and spend the rest of their time cheating in FPS games.
Then of course the rest of the game gets nerfed because Tommy's rogue can't beat a necromancer when there's 4 other players attacking him. Then developers wonder why they only have enough subs to run 5 servers.
The fact that people wants sandbox to be the 'hardcore' standard of MMOG, they want to be able to spend countless and countless hours of game time into the game and expects a huge population to follow them. Thats where they failed
Sandbox is about players shaping the world, physically and metaphorically, into the players view (to a certain extent)
Also I don't get whats with sandbox lovers and their hatred with a good storyline, why do they keep calling it handholding? The moment a game introduces a hotkey bar or interface, it is handholding you to certain directions, to do certain things. They don't realise it, because sandbox handholds as well, just too foolish to see it.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
The fact that people wants sandbox to be the 'hardcore' standard of MMOG, they want to be able to spend countless and countless hours of game time into the game and expects a huge population to follow them. Thats where they failed
Sandbox is about players shaping the world, physically and metaphorically, into the players view (to a certain extent)
Also I don't get whats with sandbox lovers and their hatred with a good storyline, why do they keep calling it handholding? The moment a game introduces a hotkey bar or interface, it is handholding you to certain directions, to do certain things. They don't realise it, because sandbox handholds as well, just too foolish to see it.
First of all a good storyline isn't handholding, but a linear progression path is in my opinion, meaning just one way to lvl.
So I don't think sandbox lovers have hatred towards storyline, but simply dislike a linear progression path.
A Sandbox game can have a storyline, just like we have story in rl mainly called history but in a sandbox game you should have the freedom to not follow that storyline and still be able to progress due to other activities/feature's that are just as meaningfull.
I don't get what people say about "hardcore standard" cause to me any game regardless it's genre and regardless if it's themepark or sandbox can always be played hardcore or casual cause to me hardcore and casual are pure a playstyle gamers have.
The fact that people wants sandbox to be the 'hardcore' standard of MMOG, they want to be able to spend countless and countless hours of game time into the game and expects a huge population to follow them. Thats where they failed
Sandbox is about players shaping the world, physically and metaphorically, into the players view (to a certain extent)
Also I don't get whats with sandbox lovers and their hatred with a good storyline, why do they keep calling it handholding? The moment a game introduces a hotkey bar or interface, it is handholding you to certain directions, to do certain things. They don't realise it, because sandbox handholds as well, just too foolish to see it.
First of all a good storyline isn't handholding, but a linear progression path is in my opinion, meaning just one way to lvl.
So I don't think sandbox lovers have hatred towards storyline, but simply dislike a linear progression path.
A Sandbox game can have a storyline, just like we have story in rl mainly called history but in a sandbox game you should have the freedom to not follow that storyline and still be able to progress due to other activities/feature's that are just as meaningfull.
I don't get what people say about "hardcore standard" cause to me any game regardless it's genre and regardless if it's themepark or sandbox can always be played hardcore or casual cause to me hardcore and casual are pure a playstyle gamers have.
because MMO's are sort of virtual lives, i can't stand another person telling me what to do, force me into their scripted events, it's crazy. It defies the very concept of massive multiplayer and virtuality because it forces you into a solitary, narrow path that also vaporizes the concept of "real time". You can give me LORE, and maybe even a GENERIC drama start that encompasses the whole world, a "quest" that's common to everyone and lasting at least 1 year, some kind of enormous difficult riddle given by the ruler of the kingdom(im thinking Lord British speeches back in Ultima), certainly not solved by farming things, but by exploring places, solving puzzles, reading that plaque at the end of the dungeon that gives a letter, a symbol, a small clue to where the "treasure" is buried.
As for the wus.... erm the wim... erm the players who are afraid to loose their crap in a total PvP game i wanted everyone to notice that this silly fear is caused by WoW's way with gears, the fact that it takes players months and months to get their shit. In a sandbox game stuff is quickly rebuyable in markets(even the rarest, most expensive pieces), or craftable in, what, 3 hours of materials gathering with your weapon smith?
1. FFA PVP - Sorry, I don't like losing the things I work for and that make the game fun. PVP should be about the battles not the gear/loot.
2. Lack of things to do. Don't be afraid to put a storyline in that is competely optional or make grinding skills be more interactive and less about grind.
that's all I have right now.
When you say FFA I guess you mean full-loot by the way you talk about losing stuff. Full loot is a very important feature for a sandbox since it feeds industry and it adds risk to the PvP.
Short of Eve the only 100k plus sub sandbox was SWG. It didn't have full loot. It didn't need it. It had stuff to do that was player generated.
Full loot is only there because devs can't and won't take the time to make a truly immersive world. So far we've had 2 maybe 3(UO is the third) all made pre-WOW. So it seems developers need to get back to the basics, what the majority of forum posters on this forum seem to agree on. Why can't it just be full inventory loot? How about a "value" percentage based on character level? There are many ways to determine this other than full loot. Maybe developers need to focus on a lot more and actually figure out how to put out a good sandbox style game. Galaxies pre-NGE was both since it had a storyline quest for factions and such. Eve (I haven't played it as its combat style deters me, but it has a ton of stuff to do and live in the world) All these other sandbox games can come up with is kill or be killed with the rest tacked on as extra. Maybe they should tack the pvp element on as extra.
Full loot is a very appealing feature for some players, me included, and as I already said, it's the basis for a functional industry (say crafting).
In EVE, for example, your gear and part of your inventory is destroyed upon your death, but the rest is loot-able. In Darkfall, you lose everything. There are several ways of dealing with this full-loot situation.
It's all about risk and consequences. WoW is a good example of consequence-less. WoW is designed to lead players in a constant flow of micro-victories even when they fail. However, in EVE there's a risk involved in every action you take part. The result is that in WoW we can see players engaging carelessly while in EVE players are most of the time paranoid and obsessed with the intelligence tools in order to determine if they'd have any chances of victory before most encounters, or maybe that's just me hehe. WoW and EVE are opposite MMO experiences. I'm not saying that one system is betterthan another, I'm just pointing out that they're different and they appeal to a different audience. It's like simulation versus arcade, Yin vs Yang or Kramer vs Kramer.
But I agree, Sandbox games shouldn't exclude storylines and mission advancement as an additional progression option.
1. FFA PVP - Sorry, I don't like losing the things I work for and that make the game fun. PVP should be about the battles not the gear/loot.
2. Lack of things to do. Don't be afraid to put a storyline in that is competely optional or make grinding skills be more interactive and less about grind.
that's all I have right now.
When you say FFA I guess you mean full-loot by the way you talk about losing stuff. Full loot is a very important feature for a sandbox since it feeds industry and it adds risk to the PvP.
Short of Eve the only 100k plus sub sandbox was SWG. It didn't have full loot. It didn't need it. It had stuff to do that was player generated.
Full loot is only there because devs can't and won't take the time to make a truly immersive world. So far we've had 2 maybe 3(UO is the third) all made pre-WOW. So it seems developers need to get back to the basics, what the majority of forum posters on this forum seem to agree on. Why can't it just be full inventory loot? How about a "value" percentage based on character level? There are many ways to determine this other than full loot. Maybe developers need to focus on a lot more and actually figure out how to put out a good sandbox style game. Galaxies pre-NGE was both since it had a storyline quest for factions and such. Eve (I haven't played it as its combat style deters me, but it has a ton of stuff to do and live in the world) All these other sandbox games can come up with is kill or be killed with the rest tacked on as extra. Maybe they should tack the pvp element on as extra.
Full loot is a very appealing feature for some players, me included, and as I already said, it's the basis for a functional industry (say crafting).
In EVE, for example, your gear and part of your inventory is destroyed upon your death, but the rest is loot-able. In Darkfall, you lose everything. There are several ways of dealing with this full-loot situation.
It's all about risk and consequences. WoW is a good example of consequence-less. WoW is designed to lead players in a constant flow of micro-victories even when they fail. However, in EVE there's a risk involved in every action you take part. The result is that in WoW we can see players engaging carelessly while in EVE players are most of the time paranoid and obsessed with the intelligence tools in order to determine if they'd have any chances of victory before most encounters, or maybe that's just me hehe. WoW and EVE are opposite MMO experiences. I'm not saying that one system is betterthan another, I'm just pointing out that they're different and they appeal to a different audience. It's like simulation versus arcade, Yin vs Yang or Kramer vs Kramer.
But I agree, Sandbox games shouldn't exclude storylines and mission advancement as an additional progression option.
I'm not arguing that full loot doesn't have a place. The majority of gamers that want(Not already are engaged, I doubt EVE players want anything but what they got) a sandbox though don't want a full loot pvp experience. I think you somehow missed my point, as I did point out EVE is a great sandbox game. I'm talking about all the other basic low population basically the same type mentality game there is(Perpetuum, MO, DF for example)
Its not a basis for crafting except in games that require it. Galaxies had the best crafting(IMO of course) and it was not full loot pvp. There are other ways to have a functional economy, but many games the only thing they can think of is: full loot so you have to continually get new stuff. I say that is horrible design. Add in item decay such as Shadowbane. You have to replace it at some point, and give a reason to pvp. You know what makes games risky? Its the waste of time. Nothing else. Its the loss of time spent. If I die how long will it take me to get what I lost back is the risk verus reward. Why does it have to equal full loot? Shadowbane did it right with runes. Nothing beats waiting 3-4 hours killing the boss, looting it, and have a thief come up and steal it from under you while 3 others are trying to smash your face for it and no one noticed the thief. Four lose and one wins. Excellent.
All I'm saying is there are many ways to make people risk time for what they got because face it if it was just given to us and we didn't have to go get it, there would be no reward. If the best new games can think of is kill and loot with no other functional parts the genre will never expand beyond its current population. Territory warfare, mines that need to be captured and held unto for a period, make getting back into battle difficult. There are a variety of ways to have meanful risk and reward pvp without just losing everything you already got. How about make it about what you now aren't going to get because your careless and reckless?
The fact that people wants sandbox to be the 'hardcore' standard of MMOG, they want to be able to spend countless and countless hours of game time into the game and expects a huge population to follow them. Thats where they failed
Sandbox is about players shaping the world, physically and metaphorically, into the players view (to a certain extent)
Also I don't get whats with sandbox lovers and their hatred with a good storyline, why do they keep calling it handholding? The moment a game introduces a hotkey bar or interface, it is handholding you to certain directions, to do certain things. They don't realise it, because sandbox handholds as well, just too foolish to see it.
First of all a good storyline isn't handholding, but a linear progression path is in my opinion, meaning just one way to lvl.
well the problem with story is that, (and don't get me wrong, I love what bioware is trying to do with SWTOR) no matter how story is branched, in a player perspective, you only experience one path of the game (unless you make an alt) so a lot of players, it becomes a linear forward progression.
So I don't think sandbox lovers have hatred towards storyline, but simply dislike a linear progression path.
A Sandbox game can have a storyline, just like we have story in rl mainly called history but in a sandbox game you should have the freedom to not follow that storyline and still be able to progress due to other activities/feature's that are just as meaningfull.
I don't get what people say about "hardcore standard" cause to me any game regardless it's genre and regardless if it's themepark or sandbox can always be played hardcore or casual cause to me hardcore and casual are pure a playstyle gamers have.
Well for proper sandbox, I can't imagine you playing it casually, since it requires a lot of time to be able to stay afloat in the game, such as exploration, economy, crafting, those are things that require heavy time investment to be able to have fun. For a game that is built on those ideas, it demands attention more than casual players can really give (plus one of the reasons why sandbox just isn't as popular, so for me, if you want a popular sandbox, some degree of features will need to go).
Plus I consider casual player as in players who do not have a regular schedule amount of time to play the game, other than the leisure time they have and choose to play the game for 1 or 2 hours.
because MMO's are sort of virtual lives, i can't stand another person telling me what to do, force me into their scripted events, it's crazy. It defies the very concept of massive multiplayer and virtuality because it forces you into a solitary, narrow path that also vaporizes the concept of "real time". You can give me LORE, and maybe even a GENERIC drama start that encompasses the whole world, a "quest" that's common to everyone and lasting at least 1 year, some kind of enormous difficult riddle given by the ruler of the kingdom(im thinking Lord British speeches back in Ultima), certainly not solved by farming things, but by exploring places, solving puzzles, reading that plaque at the end of the dungeon that gives a letter, a symbol, a small clue to where the "treasure" is buried.
Well I personally think Sandbox games are virtual lives, no MMO in general. Also just a question from a sandbox noob, how does the idea of solving persisent puzzles work in a online game setting? Only one person on the server be able to solve it? So only 1 out of server get to have the fun? or one group/ guild get to have the fun?
As for the wus.... erm the wim... erm the players who are afraid to loose their crap in a total PvP game i wanted everyone to notice that this silly fear is caused by WoW's way with gears, the fact that it takes players months and months to get their shit. In a sandbox game stuff is quickly rebuyable in markets(even the rarest, most expensive pieces), or craftable in, what, 3 hours of materials gathering with your weapon smith?
I think the problem with FFA PvP and looting isn't just about afraid to lose gears (sure it is one of the big reason), but at least for me, I hate FFA PvP is because the ingame system doesn't protect players who gets ganked. There aren't any penalty to the griefers, sure they get some bad rep or unable to enter towns, but those status aren't permanent, and when those status vanishes, the player who gets ganked is still ganked, their item is still lost, perhaps forever. Its contradictory for an MMO, which is a social platform for most gamers, to promote an antisocial behaviour. You need a permanent punishment for griefers, if they choose to deal permanent damage to a player.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
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But the possibility of being attacked in hi sec is always there. It just so happens that the consequences for doing so are extreme enough that most people aren't going to bother unless it's really worth it. The other FFA PvP games essientially have no sort of consequence for unmitigated PvP.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Your way off, and so are a lot of other people above me, in fact I would argue that 99% of the above posters are wrong, the real reason that current sandbox mmo's suck has nothing to do with them being sandbox and everything to do with the developer.
These days its only small indie(less experianced or funded) teams that have the balls or lack of brains to take on a sand box mmo, and before some one yells EvE and CCP, they were that small company at the start they just happen to have been successfull sadly most others are not.
Look at darkfall it sucks in terms of quality, its nothing to do with it being a sandbox its the development team lack the funding and skills to really make the artwork and design shine.
So please dont blame the genre, blame the developers, and their lack of skill or funds.
Duh.
Yes, games made with a low budget and limited resources seldom do as good as games made by experienced devs, well funded companies and publishers that affords advertising.
While there are exceptions this goes for all computer games except for facebook and phone games.
But lowering the price of an underfunded buggy mess wont help much at all. I still only can game that much every day and I tend to put that time into games that actually works, egven if that costs me 10 extra bucks each months.
The only 2 successful examples of a really small company making a good MMORPG/CORPG the last 10 years is Eve and Guildwars. And Eve were not so great at launch. The thing that differs CCP and ANET from companies like Star vault is that they actually have AAA programmers, that is the minimum you need for a successful game.
By this logic will the next sucdcessful sandbox be World of darkness online, they have competent people working on it.
But quality is more important than numbers. Both Guildwars and Mortal online were coded by 3 people. The difference is that the 3 people that coded GW was very experinced and good on their job, the 3 that coded MO were amateurs.
Warhammer online was made by a huge team and it still failed, yeah it's not a sandbox but it proves that numbers insät everything, that had 20 times as many people as made Guildwars on it and still did GW get in more money and have more players.
Great game needs great progremmers, that is the minimum requirement. The indie games that makes small sandbox games never have that. People blame a whole lot of things including casual players for the fact that indie sandboxes rarely gets many players but badly codedthemeparks never gets that many players either.
To make a huge sandbox games you need good programmers, a good budget and fun ideas.
Yup, those are the two core issues with sandboxes.
Solve them, and we could actually have a pretty fun sandbox MMORPG. Til then, they're hollow shells of what they could be.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Why make a topic about this is beyond me?
Are they forcing you to play cheap sandbox games?
Think not so stick to your themeparks and let us sandbox players enjoy the game style we love and you stick to yours no need to try put sandbox in negative light so your precious themepark is safe:P
A successful sandbox NEEDS optional PvP. Just take SWG for example. It was fairly successful before SOE raped it.
An enjoyable game experience should never be sacrificed for freedom.
Why so many here whine so much about free for all pvp with full loot?
All who hate dont play such games then, so why you keep saying this on forums is beyond me, feel threatened?
Darkfall full loot work perfectly its rather easy to get and if you play smart and bank regualry and have plenty spare its no big deal at all.
All who buy games like Darkfall can never whine or complain about full loot or free for all, jou bought the game so take it like man or dont buy it seems simple to me, when buy you know what you get yourself into right?
If you still whine im so happy you wasted your money on a game you dont like, i love this :P
Plenty of choices out there to choose from and when you hate free for all keep away from games like Darkfall and dont come to forums saying you hate while you dont even play it, give small indie companys at least chance to survive, so pls stick to your themeparks pls thank you.
Darkfall is a very good game for nich market those who like freedom in a mmo and hardcore full loot pvp.
No ones whining about playing games with FFA and full loot... they're complaining that there is a lack of sandbox games WITHOUT those to play. Sandbox =/= FFA and full loot.
I would be willing to bet a sizeable amount that if a game like Darkfall made a seperate server with the same game just took away the FFA PvP and removed full loot and turned it into a consentual PvP flagging system, they would double their subscriptions in less than six months.
Keep the FFA server that they have now, just make an additional one without. I'd play it without giving it a second thought.
They might gain a fair amount of PvE players but they might also lose some players because the hardcore dudez wouldn't have anyone to pick on except eachother. I think their current players would scream bloody murder or TRAMMEL!
Most indie studios just plainly fail to "launch". Plain and simple. Launch a robust enough entertainment game that has a more open world, yet tiered pvp environment like eve.
My knee-jerk reaction is that I do not like having seperate servers for FFA-PvP and consensual PvP, but that's because I want a game like Eve--one where everyone is on the same server with the same rule-set. I'd rather see the game universe segregated based on gameplay mechanics, much like how Eve has relative safe zones (I've never been attacked in hi-sec) and lawless zones were players, instead of NPCs, control territory. I want a game were a player's choices affect more than just their stats.
I do acknowledge, however, that games such as Darkfall et. al. would likely benefit from having two different rule-type servers, though Darkfall itself would probably benefit more from having better item/equipment/skill balances, and content that wasn't just grinding mobs all day.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
I love sandbox. I hate PvP. Give me SWG pre CU or something similar and I would be happy as hell. Nothing exists like that right now - Archeage and SWTOR are not going to be it either.
No bitchers.
Short of Eve the only 100k plus sub sandbox was SWG. It didn't have full loot. It didn't need it. It had stuff to do that was player generated.
Full loot is only there because devs can't and won't take the time to make a truly immersive world. So far we've had 2 maybe 3(UO is the third) all made pre-WOW. So it seems developers need to get back to the basics, what the majority of forum posters on this forum seem to agree on. Why can't it just be full inventory loot? How about a "value" percentage based on character level? There are many ways to determine this other than full loot. Maybe developers need to focus on a lot more and actually figure out how to put out a good sandbox style game. Galaxies pre-NGE was both since it had a storyline quest for factions and such. Eve (I haven't played it as its combat style deters me, but it has a ton of stuff to do and live in the world) All these other sandbox games can come up with is kill or be killed with the rest tacked on as extra. Maybe they should tack the pvp element on as extra.
The closest I have found to Pre-CU SWG is Entropia Universe. It's like SWG on steroids, nothing is easy though, and I mean nothing, but it is a true sandbox.
And since they revamped the graphics using the CryEngine it is pure eyecandy, I haven't seen an MMO that can out do it's graphics currently.
Sandbox games by nature are more complex and have way too many variables. Just being able to plant a house on the game map instantly means there's a hundred things that can go wrong or be abused by jackwagons looking for an exploit(and there's alot of you out there).
PVP...that's a completely different mindset from someone trying to craft goods to sell on the market. Most PVP mouthbreathers are too stupid to care about crafting and are looking for a bug to exploit and spend the rest of their time cheating in FPS games.
Then of course the rest of the game gets nerfed because Tommy's rogue can't beat a necromancer when there's 4 other players attacking him. Then developers wonder why they only have enough subs to run 5 servers.
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The fact that people wants sandbox to be the 'hardcore' standard of MMOG, they want to be able to spend countless and countless hours of game time into the game and expects a huge population to follow them. Thats where they failed
Sandbox is about players shaping the world, physically and metaphorically, into the players view (to a certain extent)
Also I don't get whats with sandbox lovers and their hatred with a good storyline, why do they keep calling it handholding? The moment a game introduces a hotkey bar or interface, it is handholding you to certain directions, to do certain things. They don't realise it, because sandbox handholds as well, just too foolish to see it.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
First of all a good storyline isn't handholding, but a linear progression path is in my opinion, meaning just one way to lvl.
So I don't think sandbox lovers have hatred towards storyline, but simply dislike a linear progression path.
A Sandbox game can have a storyline, just like we have story in rl mainly called history but in a sandbox game you should have the freedom to not follow that storyline and still be able to progress due to other activities/feature's that are just as meaningfull.
I don't get what people say about "hardcore standard" cause to me any game regardless it's genre and regardless if it's themepark or sandbox can always be played hardcore or casual cause to me hardcore and casual are pure a playstyle gamers have.
because MMO's are sort of virtual lives, i can't stand another person telling me what to do, force me into their scripted events, it's crazy. It defies the very concept of massive multiplayer and virtuality because it forces you into a solitary, narrow path that also vaporizes the concept of "real time". You can give me LORE, and maybe even a GENERIC drama start that encompasses the whole world, a "quest" that's common to everyone and lasting at least 1 year, some kind of enormous difficult riddle given by the ruler of the kingdom(im thinking Lord British speeches back in Ultima), certainly not solved by farming things, but by exploring places, solving puzzles, reading that plaque at the end of the dungeon that gives a letter, a symbol, a small clue to where the "treasure" is buried.
As for the wus.... erm the wim... erm the players who are afraid to loose their crap in a total PvP game i wanted everyone to notice that this silly fear is caused by WoW's way with gears, the fact that it takes players months and months to get their shit. In a sandbox game stuff is quickly rebuyable in markets(even the rarest, most expensive pieces), or craftable in, what, 3 hours of materials gathering with your weapon smith?
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Poor quality and focus on things other than good gameplay.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Full loot is a very appealing feature for some players, me included, and as I already said, it's the basis for a functional industry (say crafting).
In EVE, for example, your gear and part of your inventory is destroyed upon your death, but the rest is loot-able. In Darkfall, you lose everything. There are several ways of dealing with this full-loot situation.
It's all about risk and consequences. WoW is a good example of consequence-less. WoW is designed to lead players in a constant flow of micro-victories even when they fail. However, in EVE there's a risk involved in every action you take part. The result is that in WoW we can see players engaging carelessly while in EVE players are most of the time paranoid and obsessed with the intelligence tools in order to determine if they'd have any chances of victory before most encounters, or maybe that's just me hehe. WoW and EVE are opposite MMO experiences. I'm not saying that one system is better than another, I'm just pointing out that they're different and they appeal to a different audience. It's like simulation versus arcade, Yin vs Yang or Kramer vs Kramer.
But I agree, Sandbox games shouldn't exclude storylines and mission advancement as an additional progression option.
I'm not arguing that full loot doesn't have a place. The majority of gamers that want(Not already are engaged, I doubt EVE players want anything but what they got) a sandbox though don't want a full loot pvp experience. I think you somehow missed my point, as I did point out EVE is a great sandbox game. I'm talking about all the other basic low population basically the same type mentality game there is(Perpetuum, MO, DF for example)
Its not a basis for crafting except in games that require it. Galaxies had the best crafting(IMO of course) and it was not full loot pvp. There are other ways to have a functional economy, but many games the only thing they can think of is: full loot so you have to continually get new stuff. I say that is horrible design. Add in item decay such as Shadowbane. You have to replace it at some point, and give a reason to pvp. You know what makes games risky? Its the waste of time. Nothing else. Its the loss of time spent. If I die how long will it take me to get what I lost back is the risk verus reward. Why does it have to equal full loot? Shadowbane did it right with runes. Nothing beats waiting 3-4 hours killing the boss, looting it, and have a thief come up and steal it from under you while 3 others are trying to smash your face for it and no one noticed the thief. Four lose and one wins. Excellent.
All I'm saying is there are many ways to make people risk time for what they got because face it if it was just given to us and we didn't have to go get it, there would be no reward. If the best new games can think of is kill and loot with no other functional parts the genre will never expand beyond its current population. Territory warfare, mines that need to be captured and held unto for a period, make getting back into battle difficult. There are a variety of ways to have meanful risk and reward pvp without just losing everything you already got. How about make it about what you now aren't going to get because your careless and reckless?
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.