Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Is it possible to completely remove CC as a PVP option in MMORPGs?
elocke
Member UncommonPosts: 4,335
Simple question that I really want to know the answer to. Is it possible to completely remove CC as a PVP option/tactic in MMORPGs.
I ask because frankly, I'm tired of being stunlockied by warriors, rogues, mages, etc. in WoW, Rift, Warhammer, AoC, etc. Where is the FUN in that?
Now, I realize CC can make battles more tactical, but maybe it's the current implementation. Earlier today for example, I was in the Whitefall Warfront in Rift. I'm with a group of people, we attacked an enemy group of people, pvp ensued. Normal. Not one second into engaging the enemy I find myself stunned or turned into a squirrel. Ok, I use Break Free(which by the way, doesn't respond very fast and isn't quite "instant", but that's another topic on UI lag in pvp). Soon as I use I'm stunned a few seconds later or feared, next thing I know I'm dead.
Heck, even when going one on one the very first salvo/move by an enemy player, especially rogues and warriors, is to run into/near/charge me and immediately use whatever stun ability they have. Being a mage, I crumple quite quickly after that. It's just not fun IMHO. I love the battles where you can still do stuff even though you die anyway, at least I feel like I'm PVPing as opposed to just sitting there waiting for stuns to wear off.
If I could make an MMO without CC in PVP, I would, if just to see how it changes the gameplay. We already know too much CC ruins PVP, why not just remove it altogether? PVE is a different story, so they can keep CC for that. But PVP? Or maybe better reactionary CC breaking or removal of it by party members. I don't know, something.
Comments
CC spells/abilities aren't tactics, theyre basically rock-paper-scissors mini-games. They lead to a standard and constantly used plan of attack that means sending in heavies to get cc'd while 'squishies' try to stay out of the fight. Every game out there, MMO or small scale multi is the same thing over and over and over.
Someone needs to find a way to remove CC as the 'tactic' and instead actually put in things like formations, team flanking maneveurs, and other things that give the advantage to the guys who hold the line or formation rather than the zerg that has the most stuns and slows.
It's possible, but I think most devs are too afraid to even bother trying to find a new solution when theyre clearly making a killing off the tried-and-true method that CC is.
Methinks that stunlockying is bad >.< Prefer interrupts and stuff mhm mhm! Makes people play smarter without severe punishment of not being able to do anything while you get killed!
I remember City of heroes~ mmhm....I was a controller wif 2 holds o.o I could permahold a d00d! but that pvp was aaages ago and I think they fixed that...But yahh! I remember I was keeping a d00d locked while me n my friend were grinding in the pvp zone o.o I was ownin him! till I aggroed a blue blob and it pwnd me x.x
But methinks the biggest difference is that...Rogues n stuff do cc but all the mages tend to have their own as well o.o so it becomes "who can stun the other first" n stuff :O
IMO cc should only be like..an interrupt or somefing in pvp and should make you immune to cc after being ccd! :O I thoughted they already implemented that but I guess not
I know in Champions, CC breaks as you take more damage (except electrocute cuz its bugged) and after you break off CC youll be immune to it for like...10? seconds or so! :O that would be better than allowing chain ccs n stuff x.x
Best would be to just turnem into interrupts n stuff :O
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
It is, but unless done right, it will be like turning a game of chess to a game of checkers. I mean in terms of removing defenses and tactics. Obviously there is no cc in chess. I hate analogies...
Anyway, there is a strong chance that many players wouldn't play without any kind of cc option, like me, unless they did it just absolutely perfectly and the game still rocked. I just don't see that happening, but it's possible.
/me points to SWTOR's CC immunity system - TLDR after 3 CCs your not CC'able for a while.
It is but personally I like it.
I like that individuals can control a greater amount of players on the battle field.
What needs to be done is create a way where players aren't "always" controlled.
Or that there are negatives to players who use CC.
It's all in how it's exectuted.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I've never played Rift. Mind if I ask if your team was supposed to have someone be some kind of counter to the enemy's cc? Like in DAOC, it would be suicide normally to go out on an 8 man roam without some solid CC. Were you guys supposed to have some kind of defense that you went without? Why is it that they wiped you guys with cc but not the other way around?
I'm 1000000% genuinely just curious about the gameplay mechanics here. I'm not trying to be rude or cut anyone down.
The problem isn't in crowd control, its due to the fact that in earlier games such as DAOC CC was reserved to a very few select (and pretty squishy) classes and it was possible to use proper tactics to your advantage to learn how to avoid it.
But it's a fine line to walk, and works better as a formed group mechanic and not so well in the pick up style pvp most MMOs have today.
Modern MMO's are giving CC to every class of some sort, therefore its almost unavoidable and like the OP suggested, probably better to do away with it than have everyone getting stunlocked all the time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To answer your question YES PvP can be done without CC.
and personally its the best experience i ever had with pvp in a MMO. The game was Asherons Call the server was DarkTide. There was Zero PVP rules on that server, you could be attacked from level 1 you could be attacked in towns, there was NO instanced in the game, and the best part NO CC!!!
It took real skill to pvp in that game, there was no " push a button and put a player in piñata mode then beat on him " that is the dumbest thing i have ever seen in MMOs.
When you take CC out of pvp a few things happen, You can now fight multiple people at once and win or escape. in all these new carebear games if you fight 2 or 3 people you spend half the time CCed then dead. that my friends is stupid.
now i understand most people wernt around back in the old days off MMOs and most of what they know is these new games that ALL have the handicap of CC. but thats all it is " a handicap in pvp ".
That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You yourself said that it was different in older games.
so just revisit how it was done in older games. Problem solved.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I guess it’s possible. An example might be found in your typical FPS or FPS / RPG Hybrid shooter. However, most all MMORPGs have CC to one degree or another now and attempt to make it a tactic of play that supposedly adds depth to the experience. Yet there typically are CC counters and it feels like one player pushes button A so another player can counter with button B rather than auto attacking. Everyone hates having control taken from their character and I am waiting to see an alternative or new ways in handling CC make way into the next generation of MMOs.
Not only any serious pvp mmo can, but really should reduce cc to minima. Look at Darkfall they have no cc, the only few cc they have are blind like spell one give a short white flash, and other cluster your sceen with some blood and green graphics, and it work very well.
CC should only work in pve.
Mount & Blade: Warband also uses no CC's, so yeah it's doable.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Its possible, and i would love for them to take it out atleast in WoW because i play a holy paladin and we're the only class with no CC.... Every other healing class has something not us... yea a dispellable hammer of justice thx. Thats why i stick to pve, but if they did change that, then it would be cool.
CC where you can still take infinite amounts of damage need to go. CC that breaks on damage is fine.
The real problem with CC is the simple fact that playing in a PUG especially in a game for example like WoW were you done that run over a 100 times. Players just want to get the run over with and usually if all the players are OP there is no need for CC with that in mind when rushing threw a run with no CC even if all in the party been there 100 times before the mechanics of the game will wipe the group and shortly after the PUG is formed it is disbanded do to stupidity.
So it seems that CC is very useful to make the run a more smother. If all in the group are willing to take the time to use CC. Also CC dose wonders for PVP.
I don't think the problem is CC itself, but that the game has poorly balanced anti-CC tactics. If the game doesn't allow you to build your character to counter the abilities of other classes, then it is just poorly designed PvP.
However, I do think developers should use a standard rule that longer timed CC skills should always be breakable when attacked or come with some sort of heavy penalty for using them.
Pretty much this.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Taking out CC would take out a huge tactical element from PvP.
Really? and what Tactic would that be? everybody CC the healer and kill him?
The combat systems in traditional MMO's that continues to live on today is a big factor in CC's being retardedly powerful and easy to execute.
If you look at MOBA-style games, while the naive click, stun mechanics still exist for some characters, there are also other mechanics that are just as useful. Things like slows, pushes, pulls, taunts and indirect* taunts are all considered CC and when they're skillshots** they get all the more interesting. The sooner MMO's get away from their overloaded-interface-cooldown-centric gameplay roots the sooner more traditional CC mechanics can be done with and more logical decisions can be made.
Of course, that sort of thing as a common practice is years off, so for now, just removing stuns or giving them severe diminishing returns makes sense. I never really understood why stuns, the way they are, are all that necessary anyway, I mean GW1 solved this problem over half a decade ago. The stun-equivalent in GW1 can be countered by all classes if they plan to encounter it, and in some circumstances*** skills can still be used whilst 'stunned'.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more GW1's approach to CC makes sense. Very few CC-related abilities outright forced you into doing nothing. Some gave you a choice, attack and take damage, or just don't attack. Attack in the next few seconds, or take damage. If you attack with a certain damage type, your allies will take damage, and so on.
There's more to CC than stuns and sleeps. Developers just need to make a game malleable enough to take advantage of different approaches to this.
Here's one, fear. Instead of making you lose control of your character, make it so you can run faster when running away from the caster. The debuff? The caster gets damage bonuses or double/triple the critical strike chance. You don't lose control, but you'd be advised to run the heck away.
*An indirect taunt would be a skill that if left unchallenged would have disastrous effects for you and your team, effectively taunting you into attacking the caster.
**Skillshots are skills that you need to manually aim and time in order for them to hit, rather than relying on tab targeting to auto-hit.
***These skills are exclusively shouts. Whilst not damaging, they can still give you some preparation for when you are able to fight again.
PVP is comically dull in wow-clones. Try a FPS if you want to have interesting PVP.