Originally posted by Disatisfied9What if the developers held these monthly 1-3 hour public meetings with group representatives, IN GAME?
It could be a very elaborate event. A party could be thrown, fun things to do and socialize, in addition to the King sitting on the throne, as people line up to ask a single question or favor, which may or may not be granted. Or instead, a council could be held in the King's Court, as noblemen (representatives of the majority) step up to state their case before the King, asking for his favor.
Anyone who attends the party gets to participate in special events, party items, etc. Once a month.
In game or out of game, it does not matter. It does not solve the issue of non-representative sample as only those who rise their voice - the minority, will be heard.
Voice of 'community' is very misleading feedback and should not hold any bigger importance in game development.
Try this: open an "issues with the game" thread. Collect the issues, narrow the list down to 25 or so (no worries, every game has hundreds of perceived issues). Poll: "Vote for the five most pressing issues (in your opinion)"
Then hold your meeting with ten or twelve randomly-selected players to discuss the top three and collect feedback.
Be prepared to scrap the player's opinions when what they want is not technically feasible in the short term, and be prepared for the repercussions of telling them the Truth. Be prepared for a lot of "Well <other game> has <feature I want>", when you don't want that feature in your game. Be prepared for "<dev> doesn't listen to us!" when their wishes cannot be immediately granted.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The model that seemed to work best from both the business' and gamers' perspective might be how Mythic handled DAoC. They had dedicated employees to interact with players on the forums, and provide feedback to the developers. I don't know exactly how well Mythic judged the success, DAoC is still believed to have been very responsive to their customers. And that perception, as much as the game, still contributes to the game's rosy reputation.
SoE tried a similar mechanism with EverQuest, but the mechanism soon broke down. The go-betweens were exactly that -- go-betweens. Every time a developer actually responded directly to the community, it undermined the validity of these positions. Eventually SoE allowed the community to 'elect' class representatives who could directly contact the developers via e-mail. It just didn't work well, at least as far as I was concerned.
Yes DAoC had that. They assigned "Team Leaders" for each class that would then communicate any perceived issues from the community on only said class. They would basically condense/destil everything down into amore concise format and then present it to the developers. It's kinda similar to the "Issues with the game" thread someone else had but on a class basis, assuming of course your game has classes.
Weather or not you'd call their effort a runaway success or not is up in the air. Some people lauded the system and others found it completely useless.... just like everything else in life. I thought it was great, and for the most part during the "good old days" it seemed to work for me.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Wow.. thank you for helping me come up with this idea!
Every month, on different days, I believe I will host a "King" party where people get to line up (or they place their names in a raffle) and get to ask the King for favors. That would be really fun, and a great reward for developing a MMORPG myself, lol.
"King, I would like 5 gold."
"5 Gold? That is what you ask of me? I grant you 50 gold, and the title 'Leonard the Humble'"
"King, I want 5 million gold."
"I will give you what I think of you. Here is your single copper piece. NEXT!"
"Sir, this woman stole my baby and it is mine."
"Hmm... cut the baby in half."
"No! No! Let the baby live. She can have him!"
"Clearly the answer is obviously obvious. Execute both of them, and sell the baby to the goblin king to replace my 50 gold I just gave away.!"
If you have one time zone and no concerns about favoritism, that is one way to go about it. Some things to consider:
In an on the spot situation, the PR guy won't be able to answer most of the dev questions, the dev will probably dig you a hole with his answers, and the marketing guy may end up telling the players what they want to hear.. much to the horror of the PR guy and the dev.
Might be better to go with a collection of questions and issue presented ahead of time so that the best answer can be prepared. Some systems you might want to research:
- Ultima Online's House of Commons
- DAoC's Team Leads
- EVE Online's Council of Stellar Management
- STO's Advisory Council
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"The community" is usually made up of a small percentage of the game world population. The majority of game players want to play the games. Why would the majority of players let a minority (who find it hard to agree on many things) suggest changes to a game world?
My personal opinion is that game makers should make their games. If they work, great! If not, try again. EQ1 and CoX used to make knee-jerk reactions to complaints on message boards and really screwed up their games each time. Have a vision. Stick to it. Listen for minor changes feedback and see how it fits in with the vision.
Remember, no one pleases ALL the people ALL the time.
While the idea of community involvement sounds good, it can get out of hand quickly. The good point would be the possibility of finding a gem or two that improves gameplay and stays within the developer's vision. The danger is the slippery slope that the good intentioned brain-storming would swiftly glide down, miring the developer(s) into inaction.
Community involvement sounds like a good idea. Truthfully, I don't know if I would want to play the game.
Too many cooks spoil the broth...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Id rather they work on the updates and stuff for the game then waste hours listening to people who whine with a chance of a now and then person who has a good point. Let alone doing it on boards or live chat where all that happens is people get madder and cry more.
No. That said, I do wish they would have monthly questionaires that told what they had planned in mind to do for the next month and allowed players to vote yes or no on those directions. It could also include a short 500 to 1000 character box for players to convey suggestions in as well.
I can't see a way for the town hall type meeting to work efficiently. I don't agree with others, though, that reply that only a :vocal minority" would partake in such an opportunity. If they want to "just play the game", then they should just shut the **** up and play what's given to them. Especially if they are being given the opportunity to voice an opinion and they don't take it. That's just lazy and lazy has no right to deny me and others from speaking our minds as far as the direction we'd like to see our game of interest take.
Oh, and the results of the voting should be released publicly. That's a way to build trust with your community.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Comments
In game or out of game, it does not matter. It does not solve the issue of non-representative sample as only those who rise their voice - the minority, will be heard.
Voice of 'community' is very misleading feedback and should not hold any bigger importance in game development.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/What_is_the_CSM
Try this: open an "issues with the game" thread. Collect the issues, narrow the list down to 25 or so (no worries, every game has hundreds of perceived issues). Poll: "Vote for the five most pressing issues (in your opinion)"
Then hold your meeting with ten or twelve randomly-selected players to discuss the top three and collect feedback.
Be prepared to scrap the player's opinions when what they want is not technically feasible in the short term, and be prepared for the repercussions of telling them the Truth. Be prepared for a lot of "Well <other game> has <feature I want>", when you don't want that feature in your game. Be prepared for "<dev> doesn't listen to us!" when their wishes cannot be immediately granted.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yes DAoC had that. They assigned "Team Leaders" for each class that would then communicate any perceived issues from the community on only said class. They would basically condense/destil everything down into amore concise format and then present it to the developers. It's kinda similar to the "Issues with the game" thread someone else had but on a class basis, assuming of course your game has classes.
Weather or not you'd call their effort a runaway success or not is up in the air. Some people lauded the system and others found it completely useless.... just like everything else in life. I thought it was great, and for the most part during the "good old days" it seemed to work for me.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
If you have one time zone and no concerns about favoritism, that is one way to go about it. Some things to consider:
In an on the spot situation, the PR guy won't be able to answer most of the dev questions, the dev will probably dig you a hole with his answers, and the marketing guy may end up telling the players what they want to hear.. much to the horror of the PR guy and the dev.
Might be better to go with a collection of questions and issue presented ahead of time so that the best answer can be prepared. Some systems you might want to research:
- Ultima Online's House of Commons
- DAoC's Team Leads
- EVE Online's Council of Stellar Management
- STO's Advisory Council
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would say "No."
"The community" is usually made up of a small percentage of the game world population. The majority of game players want to play the games. Why would the majority of players let a minority (who find it hard to agree on many things) suggest changes to a game world?
My personal opinion is that game makers should make their games. If they work, great! If not, try again. EQ1 and CoX used to make knee-jerk reactions to complaints on message boards and really screwed up their games each time. Have a vision. Stick to it. Listen for minor changes feedback and see how it fits in with the vision.
Remember, no one pleases ALL the people ALL the time.
While the idea of community involvement sounds good, it can get out of hand quickly. The good point would be the possibility of finding a gem or two that improves gameplay and stays within the developer's vision. The danger is the slippery slope that the good intentioned brain-storming would swiftly glide down, miring the developer(s) into inaction.
Community involvement sounds like a good idea. Truthfully, I don't know if I would want to play the game.
Too many cooks spoil the broth...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Id rather they work on the updates and stuff for the game then waste hours listening to people who whine with a chance of a now and then person who has a good point. Let alone doing it on boards or live chat where all that happens is people get madder and cry more.
No. That said, I do wish they would have monthly questionaires that told what they had planned in mind to do for the next month and allowed players to vote yes or no on those directions. It could also include a short 500 to 1000 character box for players to convey suggestions in as well.
I can't see a way for the town hall type meeting to work efficiently. I don't agree with others, though, that reply that only a :vocal minority" would partake in such an opportunity. If they want to "just play the game", then they should just shut the **** up and play what's given to them. Especially if they are being given the opportunity to voice an opinion and they don't take it. That's just lazy and lazy has no right to deny me and others from speaking our minds as far as the direction we'd like to see our game of interest take.
Oh, and the results of the voting should be released publicly. That's a way to build trust with your community.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Hell no.
You ask a thousand players for feedback on something and there is a good chance you will get a thousand different repsonses.