General: A Hankering for PvP

SBFord

In this week's Player Perspectives, MMORPG.com's Isabelle Parsley has come out of the proverbial PvP closet. She reveals that she really likes punching other players in the face. Check out Isabelle's thoughts about PvP and her concerns about some of the issues that plague the feature in many MMOs. Let us know what you're thinking in the comments.

Then there are the balance issues. Balancing player classes and gear against AI abilities is one thing, but balancing player abilities against each other is a whole different kettle of fish. For instance: AI-Boss001 won’t care if the players keep him perma-stunned for 30 seconds straight (and it’s not too hard to code a ‘cheat’ for said boss to get around that), but you can’t take a player’s control of their character away for more than a few seconds or they will eventually quit in disgust. This is perfectly natural. We play to play, not to stand around drooling while some other player does unto us. Stuns (or any other ability that takes away player control) are one of the most hotly-debated issues in PvP that I’ve seen, and for good reason.

Read more of Isabelle Parsley's Player Perspectives: A Hankering for PvP.

hardicon

the best pvp in any game ive ever played has been open world pvp where you have something to fight for.  sorry arenas and battlegrounds just never did it for me, because I did not feel a part of the world and there was nothing to fight over.

asherons call still to me has had the best pvp in any game ive every played.  you could dodge spells if you were quick enough, you had to time your spell cast to make sure you hit and moving meant something other than exploiting a broken game mechanic that wow has.  plus there were things to fight over, in ac we fought over our leveling dungeons, we had dungeons  your guild would control or try to control to help people level and you had to defend them for that reason, it was great for pvp.

even wow when it first came out, what kept me in the game for the first year was fighting over the crossroads and tarren mill/southshore.  back then when one of those places got attacked everyone responded to defend out of pride, cant let the stinking alliance take cross roads.  then battlegrounds, pvp gear, arenas, same old carrot on the stick mentality and that was done.  now pvp is next to useless in any game that pretty much comes out because there is nothing to fight over, just more gear or a instance based zone that never changes.

 

montin

Your not talking about real pvp when you say about battlegrounds. Thats like boxing in a ring compaired to street fighting. One is controlled with no real danger of loss. And that is where the main trouble with modern day pvp comes in, the total lack of loss. It's like, on dear I've die and have to wait a few second before I can play again. So pointless. Now compair that to (some of) the old MUDs that we played about 15 years ago. When you got killed you would lose experience and even have your corpse looted of kit. Which resulted in a real thrill when doing pvp. It also ment doing pve for several hours to make the experience back that was lost when a fighting didn't go to plan.

I used to level up toons on pvp servers but the loss from being killed is so little that it's become pointless. Now when I play whichever game takes my fancy, currently Rift, then I just roll a toon on a pve server. If you want the fun of killing another player then I'd suggest dont look for a rpg type game but rather play something like Battlefield. I really dont think rpg games with their system of farming kit and limited attention spam of the general player base, that have any chance of intergrating pve and pvp.

Lanessar

I'd definitely agree that old-WOW style PvP like Strangelthorn Vale was much more enjoyable. Yes, you got ganked by people 20 levels above you. Yes, you'd get repeatedly gamg-raped by 5-10 people in a raid group. But it was surprising, risky, and sometimes you could come out on top (if they were dumb players).

During the initial six months of SWG, I also had a lot of fun as a Bounty Hunter PVPing Empire - we had some real heroic shoot-outs at the mos Eisley space station which sometimes saw 40v20 when the whole guild got involved on both sides. Or hunting "jedi" claimants and taking screens of them running back from the medcenter to post on the forums showing they were lying. The one time we actually ran into a real jedi and half the killgroup was dropped before we realized it.

I didn't like PvP prior to these experiences; most MMOs made the penalty too harsh or it simply wan't fun. World PvP is far more enjoyable than Battlegrounds due to the randomity factor of not knowing who might jump in. It could be horribly unbalanced as far ass the fight was concerned, or it could be 3 on 1. Most of the time, you dirtnapped. But once in a while, taking out the 3 to 1 odds, or managing to kill a L60 with a L40 Warlock  - those were moments of glory, to be retold and savored. Those were achievements, not the little gold badges they do now for collecting pets or whatnot.

Getting the title of "Immortal" for surviving a 5 on 1 gank or "Kingslayer" for killing a higher level toon would be far, far more memorable.

DrunkWolf

Originally posted by hardicon

the best pvp in any game ive ever played has been open world pvp where you have something to fight for.  sorry arenas and battlegrounds just never did it for me, because I did not feel a part of the world and there was nothing to fight over.

asherons call still to me has had the best pvp in any game ive every played.  you could dodge spells if you were quick enough, you had to time your spell cast to make sure you hit and moving meant something other than exploiting a broken game mechanic that wow has.  plus there were things to fight over, in ac we fought over our leveling dungeons, we had dungeons  your guild would control or try to control to help people level and you had to defend them for that reason, it was great for pvp.

even wow when it first came out, what kept me in the game for the first year was fighting over the crossroads and tarren mill/southshore.  back then when one of those places got attacked everyone responded to defend out of pride, cant let the stinking alliance take cross roads.  then battlegrounds, pvp gear, arenas, same old carrot on the stick mentality and that was done.  now pvp is next to useless in any game that pretty much comes out because there is nothing to fight over, just more gear or a instance based zone that never changes.

 

 I agree Asherons Call was the best pvp i have ever had also.  and just so people know, it wasnt just dungeons we fought over. You were NEVER safe in that game we fought over towns just so we could sell our loot, we hunted down peoples mules to try and get some good drops ( a mule was another character made to hold your items because there was no bank )

there was action everywhere, you made friends and backed each other up. you were fair game from level 1 and any level player could kill your ass and send you packing. I know alot of people dont like FFA pvp but it was really fun. There was NO CC to hold you back from being able to fight and kill multiple people at once, even people higher level than you.

but the best i think was being able to dodge magic and arrows cant understand why another game hasnt made a system like that.

odinsrath

best pvp hands down i had ever played was SHADOWBANE

building your own castles / towns with shops defending it in open world pvp no questing or hand holding you just go out lvl as quick as possible and kill some rare named mobs that droped runes that gave you even better powers and just go out and  play to crush! ..the only thing that comes nearly close thats on the market is darkfall and imo its horrible..but ArcAge looks promising ...i hope lol

Mad+Dog

For heat pounding PVP action Darkfall owns all.

Zaerik

Yes! Asheron's Call had the greatest PvP and gameplay in general ever...It definately set the bar real high for me as far as MMOs go.  Now its hard to find an MMO that keeps my attention like AC did.

MumboJumbo

Enjoyed reading this article and it covers most of masks PvP wears in mmorpgs.

What's more enjoyable than being the player that saves your team from defeat with a surprise ambush in an arena-pvp context or being part of the bold group that takes and holds onto a fortress in the jaws of enemy territory in faction-pvp or in open-world pvp taking on the role of a bounty-hunter or pirate specializations and knowing in all cases that you are facing an advanced & calculating HI* opponent(s) on the other side??

*Human Intelligence

Isturi

PVP is all about brains. In essence it is a chess game. You have better chances of wining if you have few idiots on your team. That is why more times then not premade teams usually win. PVP is about people understanding the mechanics of that particlar part of the game better then your oponent. PVP dose have its down fall in a open world because if you come across a lowlife griefer camper in a lowbie area that you have no way in hell to defeat unless you have a toon as your main as good or even better then his Which I made sure I had when I played my alts. The only thing you can do is come back later and hope that that douche is gone. If the camping is to bad REPORT there ass. especially if it not allowed in the game rules. Yes use the game rules to your advantage. Many griefers undo themselves they think they can show off by hacking in some instance I laugh and love to report them knowing that there account will be banned. tyvm

Check and mate!!!!

Hardanger

LotRO's PvP is unique and well implemented.  It will get even better when free-to-players get access to it in september.

Lille7

Originally posted by Isturi

PVP is all about brains. In essence it is a chess game. You have better chances of wining if you have few idiots on your team. That is why more times then not premade teams usually win. PVP is about people understanding the mechanics of that particlar part of the game better then your oponent. PVP dose have its down fall in a open world because if you come across a lowlife griefer camper in a lowbie area that you have no way in hell to defeat unless you have a toon as your main as good or even better then his Which I made sure I had when I played my alts. The only thing you can do is come back later and hope that that douche is gone. If the camping is to bad REPORT there ass. especially if it not allowed in the game rules. Yes use the game rules to your advantage. Many griefers undo themselves they think they can show off by hacking in some instance I laugh and love to report them knowing that there account will be banned. tyvm

Check and mate!!!!

In a multiplayer game you can always ask for help to deal with him. Thats the great part, you will actually need other players.

Raventree

Following the WoW formula, most MMORPGs that come out these days basically throw in the battlegrounds and call it good for PVP development.  Those are fine, but they get stale fairly quick because you are, in essence, doing the same thing over and over.  In my experience DAoC had the best PVP model because you did battlegrounds while leveling up and when you got to max level you switched from BGs to end game RVR.  You really had real objectives then, like capturing keeps for realm-wide bonuses and taking control of Darkness Falls once you controlled the most keeps. 

There were also big raids and tons of PVE content that you could do as well and the PVP zones were separate from the PVE zones so that you wouldn't have to deal with constantly being ganked while leveling.  It was a perfect setup.  I don't know why no one has even come close since.

Sensai

"Our PvP systems are growing more complex and more responsive, at least overall . . ."

Please provide some facts or at least examples to back up this statement.  PvP has grown progressively worse since DAoC and is just pure trash right now.  Battlegrounds are not real pvp.  That is the problem, such a huge portion of the playerbase grew up on WoW or something similar and they do not know any pvp outside of battlegrounds or griefing.  PvP systems have grown, but unfortunately only into systems that are almost entirely gear dependant and that do nothing to encourage massive pvp encounters.

Unlight

Quote by Isabelle

The three factions are also a draw for me. WAR and SWG’s greatest flaw, I think, was only having two factions, though in SWG’s case that was somewhat hard to get around. Having only two factions always leads to either/or situations, and in my experience things become more complex, more varied and vastly more entertaining when you have at least three factions – or dozens, as in EVE.

Guild Wars 2 will have three "factions" and is being officially revealed at GamesCom in August.  You should do the write up for it.

goldgenie

DAOC 4 letters end of? never licked never beaten

goldgenie

As in all the QQ carebear generalising-  pre TOA etc it really worked - ignore the kids - fk me make the game and  distribute - dont like it ? well byee see you on your next moan beta - it worked full stop. Make the worlds we play in and deploy - have some balls - you make the game, developers - -the QQ kids will still sub (well their folks will!) till the next fad comes along - you'll never keep em , ignore em . IMHO after far too many wasted nights / decades playing and watching this genre idea  melt into pop culture hey ho

mymmo

Age of conans new servers are really fun. The ganking is so nasty that players are rerolling to the pve servers. A good way to empty your own server...

paroxysm

To the OP, I completely disagree that PvP is getting more complex.  I find the exact opposite to be true.  Balance is actually worse in these streamlined/dumbed down new versions of so called "MMORPGs".  There were older games with 4x the options and tool sets with way better balance than those available now.

 

PvP is failing in mmorpgs because of homogenization and the fact that the goal for PvP and PvM are directly opposed.  I could go on for pages on that, but I've said it 100 times and that one statement pretty well sums it up.

Raventree

Originally posted by Sensai

"Our PvP systems are growing more complex and more responsive, at least overall . . ."

Please provide some facts or at least examples to back up this statement.  PvP has grown progressively worse since DAoC and is just pure trash right now.  Battlegrounds are not real pvp.  That is the problem, such a huge portion of the playerbase grew up on WoW or something similar and they do not know any pvp outside of battlegrounds or griefing.  PvP systems have grown, but unfortunately only into systems that are almost entirely gear dependant and that do nothing to encourage massive pvp encounters.

 I agree that a lot of players only know the WoW system and don't realize that PVP has actually moved backward instead of forward in the last few years.  Griefing wasn't a problem in DAoC because you couldn't be griefed unless you entered the zones specifically made for PVP.  You didn't just keep grinding for better and better gear because your real goals were controlling keeps and leveling your realm abilities.  Gear was something you did outside of PVP either to prepare yourself, or because you were getting your butt kicked too much.

I think if developers continue to follow the basic WoW model the best thing they could do for PVP is completely eliminate max level battlegrounds and instead encourage endgame PVP in control zones with tangible benefits so that players have a real reason to fight each other.  That is what DAoC did so well and the lack of something like that is what has made every MMO I have played since then seem hollow and lacking.

aspekx

i think SWGpreNGE had the best system for pvp: flagging, and there were always enough other players willing to either jump in on your flagged butt, or others already flagged to keep it interesting. the best part was it was your *choice* to flag or not. however, they had a horrid time with balance i think in those early days of SWG pvp.

from what ive witnessed the most balanced pvp has been in GW's. i think the devs continually put a lot of effort into keeping the classes balanced.

the most fun though for me has been world pvp, i hate to admit it, but flagging in SWG was serious stuff and tons of fun. our city setup a rebel base, one of the largest ones, and eventually an imperial guild decided to take it down. it took them 3 days of continuos fighting to do so and it was insanely fun, even to lose.

that system more than anything else got me into world pvp. ive never been a huge pvp fan, mostly b/c of the lack of choice that hardcore pvp'rs insist on. imo, i should be able to choose how to play my game, if i want to flag i should be able to, if i dont, i shouldn't have to do so.

Thorqemada

Its funny that TSW is a hope for a good pvp game bcs the mainreason to play it isnt pvp but its setting allows a system similar to daoc which still is the best pvp-system.

Sadly the huge majority of mmo players never have experienced true meaningfull pvp that has a reason and still offers the choice to the players to participate and not forces them.

Also players must learn that égalité is not a goal in playing mmorpgs, its diversity and making the best out of it.

jayarte

Another enjoyable article, Isabelle.  I share your tendency to increasingly find pvp an enjoyable option, but agree with other posters that battlegrounds can feel tedious and meaningless.  I missed out on the DAOC heyday, which saddens me because it sounds just about perfect in most ways.  I've tried it out a few times in the past couple of years, but it's difficult to come into a game so late in its life (for me, anyway).

 

Warhammer endless trial was fun for me because I didn't have to worry about gear grinding as I levelled up once I hit the max of lv 10, and the early warfront on the beach was always pretty full of people on both US and EU servers, so there was plenty of action at any time.  I guess that experience is the nearest I've had to any meaningful type of pvp, in that it's an ongoing battle rather than a bg with a beginning and end, which always feels very contrived.

 

I also have fond memories of the first mmo I played, a Korean f2p called Kalonline which seemed wonderful to me (simply because it was my first).  There was open world pvp there and players had to buy an assasin's mask to enable pk (player killing).  I don't think there were any penalties for ganking, camping etc, but it was great (and frustrating) to see a wave of newbie players die right along the beach and then the vengeance descending on the assassin(s) (they were known as "sins") once the word got out on who they were and what they were up to.  That was a great feeling; being ganked by some git about 40 levels higher than you, and then watching the higher levels arrive in the area to sort him/her out. 

 

I haven't tried games like Darkfall because I'm not sure my nerves and reflexes would be up to open-world pvp where you can lose stuff (lose everything)?  I do enjoy open-world pvp, but when I'm in the mood ^.^

 

I really hope that one or other of the upcoming hopefuls (GW2, TSW or ArchAge) might fill the gap left by DAOC and allow me to enjoy pvp to its full.

Raapnaap

Originally posted by jayarte 

I haven't tried games like Darkfall because I'm not sure my nerves and reflexes would be up to open-world pvp where you can lose stuff (lose everything)?  I do enjoy open-world pvp, but when I'm in the mood ^.^

You lose everything you carry at the time of getting ganked, should your killer decide to loot everything. As a new player, 19 out of 20 times you will die to a player you should be able to loot back most of your items from your grave, because people aren't intrested in low quality gear, or griefing new players for that matter.

I think you would be suprised overall how 'nice' Darkfall players can be towards newer players. A complete opposite experience of the gank squads found in theme parks such as WoW or AoC, who more often then not also shit talk to you after they kill you.

Alman321s

Originally posted by raapnaap

You lose everything you carry at the time of getting ganked, should your killer decide to loot everything. As a new player, 19 out of 20 times you will die to a player you should be able to loot back most of your items from your grave, because people aren't intrested in low quality gear, or griefing new players for that matter.

I think you would be suprised overall how 'nice' Darkfall players can be towards newer players. A complete opposite experience of the gank squads found in theme parks such as WoW or AoC, who more often then not also shit talk to you after they kill you.

Really? Nice? Last I remember a little over 3 months back me and 3 friends did the DF free trial and we were constantly killed for 3 days straight pretty much, by players we couldn't even hurt.

Inktomi

Good read. I'll give you some hope, I know some women who are more vicious than some of the men I know. They will actually get in your vent or TS and talk sweet to you as they stomp you into the ground...repeatedly. These girls just love to let your corp or guild buddies know you just got roflstomped by a girl.

Keep at it.