GW2 has depth in PvE and PvP, can it have more?

Daimyo21

GW2 has obviously impressed me so far compared to GW1.  The combat system looks great and fresh, the game looks to be more balanced and its a new and innovative direction in terms of the class and dynamic system etc.  That said, the game layout also reminds me of Dark Age of Camelot which was one of the best MMOs of all time.  DAOC was a perfect blend between doing PvE in your safe zone realm area while giving you a good reason to capture relics in the PvP area to boost your realms stats and enjoy some really state of the art castle sieges (all while being able to level through RvR somewhat..). 

GW2 offers all that and a story-mode (that im not particulary excited about) but still offers it at a F2P level which is great.  A side of all that, GW2 is essentially doing what DAOC has already done with less of a reason to do so unless there are bonuses to conquering land in the battlefield for your server that im not aware of.  Of course enjoying the sheer awesomeness of combat at a high scale is great and I cant wait to see real footage of it (not trailer footage).  But I cant help but feel that the game in the long run will begin to lack on things to do other than re-roll or capture that same castle over and over without having any real effect on the game world other than bragging rights.   Of course the dynamic system helps because actual changes to the world are made but what changes can players make to the world other than simply not giving two shits about a dynamc event and deciding the city deserves to burn? 

Expansions of course will be released but will it add new features  like  free to build player housing and essentially sea-battles like in DAOC or games today like DFO or the upcoming ArcheAge?  My fear is that the expansions will expand on the same content that the game currently has, but more of it... LIke more dynamic events and more battle arena maps etc etc.  (that seems to be what most MMos do and they save the good stuff for the next release).

I know its alot to ask in GW2 for release and i dont see how they could have the resources to do so without realy hindering the games potential.   But as for expansions, do you think we would see further depth and innovation later on after release based on your experiences with GW1 expansions?

Xexv

It's an interesting concern OP and one I share and at the end of the day it'll come down to how receptive ANet will be to their playerbase and their requests for new content. Personally I would prefer to see the inclusion of new features and concepts as expansions are released - whether it occurs or not is rather hard to divine right now from where we sit.

You and I and I know for a fact quite a lot of others derive a major interest in this game because of the GW2 homage to DAoC and her RvR. It was the only PvP game I've played where PvE players got in on the action too and everyone was the more happier for it. Nowadays we're looking at the hardcores killing like five other hardcores over and over whilst everyone else has buggered off. If ANet and the community manage to pull off a mass appeal to WvWvW again with GW2 it will greatly increase the chances of the game being considered a classic even if the expansions don't go the way some of us want.

MumboJumbo

Lol, that's one helluva spaghetti junction of questions rolled altogether!

As you say in the title: PvE: PS*5 + DEs(1600), "8 going on 32" dungeons, minigames ...etc => Quantity.

But also: 60 feature film length of VO, music that can be modified as you play, customization, detailed lore and sub-stories for minor races and "painterly aesthetic" (!) etc => Quality.

So it depends how much you enjoy the polish in the game as well as how that polish is applied to the above features, I think is the best answer here and applies to the future expansions & PvP. For me looking into the game's lore will be as much fun as actually sailing through all the content to completion... before "WHAT NEXT?" questions can safely be delayed for later.

I wouldn't expect radical differences to be included once the game engine and game design are all put together, wishing for a 3rd faction in WAR was always wishing for the impossible after 2 factions was implemented eg. But such epic situations involving an armada or such or world-size Dragons... all on the cards in either the PS or DEs which the PvE is built around & we get that 3rd faction in GW2, as well in WvWvW : )

I think as above^: Some player-feedback will lead to different things: More dungeon content? Longer/shorter match-up times in WvWVW, more RTS in these maps being added?, DEs that are more epic but fewer for future expansions maybe? Those seem within scope of what the GW2 engine is capable of AND DESIGNED TO MANAGE. But if it's all done with the high quality of production, that makes any future same/similar content all the more fun.

gordiflu

Sorry OP, but I fail to see what anything on your post has got to do with depth.

Kaerigan

Originally posted by Daimyo21

A side of all that, GW2 is essentially doing what DAOC has already done with less of a reason to do so unless there are bonuses to conquering land in the battlefield for your server that im not aware of.

I remember hearing (in one of the panel videos) that conquering land in WvW will lead to bonuses to the entire server that did the conquering. How this will work, I have no idea. I think they'll go more into depth on this in the next game show.

MumboJumbo

Originally posted by Kaerigan

Originally posted by Daimyo21

A side of all that, GW2 is essentially doing what DAOC has already done with less of a reason to do so unless there are bonuses to conquering land in the battlefield for your server that im not aware of.

I remember hearing (in one of the panel videos) that conquering land in WvW will lead to bonuses to the entire server that did the conquering. How this will work, I have no idea. I think they'll go more into depth on this in the next game show.

(1) In DAOC you had x1 Server => x3 Factions in RvRvR

In GW2 you have x3 Servers => x3 Factions in WvWvW

(2) Apparently WvWvW is geared to include more RTS elements as well...

(3) WvWvW contests lasts (atm) x2 Weeks then servers are re-matched together with higher ranked servers matched together.

(4) There's talk of server bonuses and oc we know little about Guild privileges also (keep claiming?)

I think these differences could work out well for GW2's Faction PvP?

goouie

I think the GW2 team is going to give us exactly what we want and have been looking for since DAoC, and frankly I am ready for that breath of fresh air. Unfortuneatly for all of us waiting it takes time to make the game and polish it and I would like to tell them thank you in advance for not rushing it and trying to meet shipping deadlines and giving us crap like we have been dealt these last couple of years, but dammit I need something good to play..I'm having MMO withdrawals. Me wants me Charr.

wutae

I am a huge fun of DAoC, and i am quite wishing for the best for GW2,

I am quite a power player, means that i always try my hardest in any game that i play, and actually burn through content.

The reason DAoC's pvp was popular was the RealmPoint system, every player you kill you get some points that you can actually use them for purchasing abilities, considering GW2's phylosophy i dont see that happening, but at the same time that was what was pushing players in DAoC.

If you want to have a successful pvp zone in any game, you need to force both power gamers and casuals in it.

So casuals will have some fun killing each other trying to capture the middle keep, but power games will most propably stay out of it, as it seems that there is no profit to it, making them go inside arenas, which is quite "ok" for wow elitist players, but that wont sattisfy people that come from other games, like war, daoc, eve etc

Pro players from these games, prefer the open battle instead of a closed arena. They will still play arena, but it wont sattisfy them.

I just hope Anet, will find a way to force pr0 arena players inside the open pvp zone they made, otherwise we will see a TolBarad v2 in GW2 itself. Casuals hitting each other, and just not caring way too much.

Master_M2K

Originally posted by wutae

 

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If you want to have a successful pvp zone in any game, you need to force both power gamers and casuals in it.

So casuals will have some fun killing each other trying to capture the middle keep, but power games will most propably stay out of it, as it seems that there is no profit to it, making them go inside arenas, which is quite "ok" for wow elitist players, but that wont sattisfy people that come from other games, like war, daoc, eve etc

Pro players from these games, prefer the open battle instead of a closed arena. They will still play arena, but it wont sattisfy them.

I just hope Anet, will find a way to force pr0 arena players inside the open pvp zone they made, otherwise we will see a TolBarad v2 in GW2 itself. Casuals hitting each other, and just not caring way too much.

I feel that is the kind of thing that can ruin a game. When a person feels forced to do something they had no intention of doing then it stops a game being fun for that person. It's kind of why you get a lot of people bitching about some MMOs' gear-treadmill endgame raiding.

As for GW2's WvWvW, I think ArenaNet has the right idea by trying to make it actually fun first and thinking about the incentives later. If they can succeed in making this PvP environment enjoyable then it will eventually attract the PvE players that are lookign for a change of pace. There's no need to force them into it, with some "must have" incentives.

cali59

One of the reasons to doing WvWvW PVP which I don't think you touched on is that win/loss standings are kept.  Each 2 weeks, servers are matched up against new servers with similar win records and active populations.  To me, this has the potential to be huge because it matters on some level.  Nobody likes losing.  I can see people going to the major cities and shouting for recruits.

We also know you can level entirely in PVP and receive loot items from players.  It might be also that there are unique PVP rewards like armor skins.

As far as what is in the cards for expansion, we don't know.  I'm thinking back to Factions and how they introduced the line that marked the PVP battle front line to the PVE map, and it affected which merchants sold to which faction.  Not something I was particularly into, but at least it was an attempt at something different.  Obviously, this particular thing isn't going to happen in an entirely PVE world, but just pointing out that they might go in unexpected directions.

Personally, I can totally see them embracing not only sandbox elements but raiding elements as well.  If their philosophy is that players should do whatever they find fun, then it'll all be about the feedback they get and what the players want to see.

Xexv

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Originally posted by Master_M2K

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Originally posted by wutae
 
....
If you want to have a successful pvp zone in any game, you need to force both power gamers and casuals in it.
So casuals will have some fun killing each other trying to capture the middle keep, but power games will most propably stay out of it, as it seems that there is no profit to it, making them go inside arenas, which is quite "ok" for wow elitist players, but that wont sattisfy people that come from other games, like war, daoc, eve etc
Pro players from these games, prefer the open battle instead of a closed arena. They will still play arena, but it wont sattisfy them.
I just hope Anet, will find a way to force pr0 arena players inside the open pvp zone they made, otherwise we will see a TolBarad v2 in GW2 itself. Casuals hitting each other, and just not caring way too much.

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I feel that is the kind of thing that can ruin a game. When a person feels forced to do something they had no intention of doing then it stops a game being fun for that person. It's kind of why you get a lot of people bitching about some MMOs' gear-treadmill endgame raiding.
As for GW2's WvWvW, I think ArenaNet has the right idea by trying to make it actually fun first and thinking about the incentives later. If they can succeed in making this PvP environment enjoyable then it will eventually attract the PvE players that are lookign for a change of pace. There's no need to force them into it, with some "must have" incentives.

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I read it not really as forcing players but encouraging everyone to get in on the fun. Like in DAoC, sure it was optional but most everyone played at least some RvR, even if it was only keep takes or battlegrounds action - it still counts. But yeah I agree with you it's imperative to make everyone see something beneficial.

Really you want to foster an environment where even someone who would normally turn away from PvP says to themself 'well why not? it looks like fun and why should I cut myself out of part of the game?'.

Edit: It will be interesting to see whether a kind of 'server' pride develops in place of realm pride. If you start to see that developing I think it would be a very good sign.

Konyak

ArenaNet is the best MMO developer out there(I know, GW1 isn't an MMO, but it's accepted by the MMO community regardless) and they're very receptive to their playerbase. If you're worried about depth and content after release, you shouldn't.

EvilGeek

The first release of GW2 is going to be larger than the first release of GW, so we have a bigger land mass with more content at release than their first title. Five races, five starting areas, eight classes, personal story lines that branch according to decisions made, DE's that mean you won't always stumble across the same content leveling up an alt, minigames in all major towns, sidekicking so no content becomes redundant, hot joinable PvP, PvP tournaments (they will become an e-sport), WvWvW and a crafting system we still only know the basics of, I'm seriously not worried about content and depth, I'm more worried about what happens to real life come release