Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles,
So, when you state something as fact, and you are given data to prove that is not true, and you cannot provide data to supoport your statement, your take on that is basically that no matter what facts are presented to counter your argument and no matter how you can provide no facts to support your argument, you are going to contend that you are still correct because these are just different views.
That makes it really hard to have any kind of rational discussion with you.
I think this is the pot calling the kettle black.
Look at the statement in green. You state it like it's a fact.
However, I percieve my character as measured in hours played, hours logged in to the game world. In that case, your statment is not correct.
You perecieve the "guy with more time" getting ahead of you, becuase of what happens in the real world.
A month goes by in the real world, and his character is higher level than yours so he's getting ahead of you.
My perception of the character is based on what happens in teh game world, not the real world.
It doesn't matter to me if a week, a month, or a year goes by in the real world. The only thing that affects the character is what happens in teh game world.
The only way you could "get ahead of me" is by skipping content. If I have to do a quest to make a level, or kill a mob, and you don't.
Basically you're saying everyone must percieve the character progression the way you do, or they are not rational.
I don't find you irrational.
I can see how you might feel like someone is "getting ahead of you" because you take into account the time passing in the real world.
I understand it, I find it rational, but I don't feel that way about the characters in the game world.
How you perceive character progression is not a fact.
It's subjective.
I think what he means is the guy with more time is playing the game more, therefore he is in the game world more and he will get epeenz before you will.
Venge
Thank you, Venge.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There's been a lot of discussion about what's the better business model, P2P, B2P, or F2P. Well I think I just thought of something that may be better than all of them..listen to this.
I call the model "segmented B2P." The idea is that you sell different "editions" of the game for different prices to different people, based on what they want out of the game. The basic premise is that the game will be designed with a lot of repetitive (grindy) stuff that only really hardcore people will enjoy, but you give players the option to bypass some of this grindy content by spending more on the game when they buy it. Here's a sample breakdown of how this would work:
Hardcore edition $40 - In this edition you have to grind through all of the game, but you're compensated with a lower price. It's mainly meant to appeal to hardcore people.
Basic edition $60 - In this edition, you get to skip some of the grind, you basically start 25% through the game, but you still have to do a lot of the grind.
Special edition $80 - In this edition, you get to skip more of the grind, now you start at 50% through the game.
Elite edition $100 - In this edition, you skip most of the grind, you start at 75% through the game.
SUPREME edition $150 - In this edition, you get to skip ALL of the grind, you start at the end of the game.
What do you think of this idea?
Wow this sounds an awfully lot like what freemium model games are doing right now.
Ooookay well many people have already realized this, but if you haven't this whole poll was basically satire in order to illustrate a point.
The business model I presented in the poll is absolutely horrible, and as I expected the majority of respondants hated it. But, as some of you realize, the scenario I present is exactly what many P2W games do. They give you an alternative of spending tons of hours in a repetitive grind or PAYING to skip the content that is deliberately made to be extremely dull.
The only difference between P2W games and the scenario in the poll is that the poll basically frontloaded all of the costs and made it very obvious what was happening. Many P2W games on the other hand are trickier and you may not realize what's happening until you're already knee-deep in it.
So if anyone wonders why I don't like P2W games...this is why.
Even if in jest, the idea might not be as far off from realistic as you might suppose. The pay to win is a one time fee, not recurring. The pay to win is clearly exposed so there's no bait and switch as found in many P2W games. The process circumvents third party RMTs so it generates revenue for the game not for hackers.
As it is now people pay hundreds, even thousands for account purchases. There are also many who belly up to the cash shop figuring that their time is more valuable than the few bucks (or many bucks later on) spent on upgrades.
Is this fictional proposal really any worse than logging into a game and being swamped with advertising selling Uber Sword of Greatness for $75.00 or one hour 4x XP potions for $20.00 each or paying $6.00 to rent a mount for a month?
A hundred bucks extra up front is chump change compared to what is spent in P2W and third party RMTs.
Nope, I don't think this proposal is worse than that at all and that's kind of scary. All this proposal does is honestly tell you what you're getting with a P2W game up front, and lo and behold, most people (80%) hate it.
I bet that if all those people who spent $100's of dollars on P2W gams over a few months would have known up front that this game would cost them $300 or whatever, they never would have bought it. It is, as you say, bait and switch. And that's the only reason (IMO) that the P2W business model works.
Are you a writer in real life? If not you really should be because you employ some pretty deft tactics. the problem though is that I think alot of people are going to vote no simply because as you state it in the beginning you are presenting this as a new idea (which I pointed out in my last post it is the exact same thing you constantly complain about so I also voted no).
Not sure you've proven your point or changed any minds about either freemium or p2w but must give you props on being able to present your point in ways that certainly get people looking and talking.
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles, I think this whole argument has been beneficial to me, because it helped me understand exactly WHY P2W upsets me so much.
When I first heard about RMAH in Diablo3 I was really annoyed, but I couldn't exactly pinpoint why. Now I realize that my real gripe isn't that people are leveling "faster" than me...it's the whole idea of coming out with a game and then making people PAY to skip content. Doesn't this seem like a messed up business model to you? I think it just encourages devs to make games with tons of boring content that no one but the really hardcore want to do, so they can charge people to skip it.
It just seems like a con to me, and so backwards. Get people hooked on a game by making the beginning interesting...put a huge fairly boring grind in the middle or make farming items exceedingly painful, and then tell players that they can skip the horrible grind if they just cough up some more dough. It seriously sounds like the same tactic that drug dealers use.
I normally expect to get MORE content when I spend money. Not just get the privilege to skip it.
When this stuff was only in F2P games it didn't bother me because it was "contained," and hey, you're playing for free, someone has to subsidize your experience. But now it's starting to invade B2P games as well and my fear is that it will become a standard "feature" of many premium video games and what my generation used to call "cheat codes" will now be packaged products for any willing gamer to purchase. Doesn't this seem a little f@#ked up to you?
The problem with this point of view is you, let me say that again you assume that people are paying to skip content without any actual proof of whether or not a person has actually engaged in all the content available to them.
I have never played a Diablo game so I don't know if it works like mmo's work but in all fairness you have been railing against anything that's not standard sub or B2P and as mmo's go you are expected to grind certain dungeons over and over and over and over again to MAYBE get what you are looking for is Diablo the same?
So let me ask you this what if it was impossible to use an item from a certain dungeon if you hadn't run the dungeon whether you buy the item outright or not would that work for you?
For the record I'm all about options I believe the market can support every model p2w,B2P,Subscription and freemium I just don't have to play the games that I don't agree with the design of (p2w).
My question is why is it such a problem to you that they even exist? They obviously aren't for you so why not let the players who don't have umpteen hours to grind have those games and play what you like just curious why this for you seems like an issue you feel you need to stamp out?
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles, I think this whole argument has been beneficial to me, because it helped me understand exactly WHY P2W upsets me so much.
When I first heard about RMAH in Diablo3 I was really annoyed, but I couldn't exactly pinpoint why. Now I realize that my real gripe isn't that people are leveling "faster" than me...it's the whole idea of coming out with a game and then making people PAY to skip content. Doesn't this seem like a messed up business model to you? I think it just encourages devs to make games with tons of boring content that no one but the really hardcore want to do, so they can charge people to skip it.
It just seems like a con to me, and so backwards. Get people hooked on a game by making the beginning interesting...put a huge fairly boring grind in the middle or make farming items exceedingly painful, and then tell players that they can skip the horrible grind if they just cough up some more dough. It seriously sounds like the same tactic that drug dealers use.
I normally expect to get MORE content when I spend money. Not just get the privilege to skip it.
When this stuff was only in F2P games it didn't bother me because it was "contained," and hey, you're playing for free, someone has to subsidize your experience. But now it's starting to invade B2P games as well and my fear is that it will become a standard "feature" of many premium video games and what my generation used to call "cheat codes" will now be packaged products for any willing gamer to purchase. Doesn't this seem a little f@#ked up to you?
The problem with this point of view is you, let me say that again you assume that people are paying to skip content without any actual proof of whether or not a person has actually engaged in all the content available to them.
I have never played a Diablo game so I don't know if it works like mmo's work but in all fairness you have been railing against anything that's not standard sub or B2P and as mmo's go you are expected to grind certain dungeons over and over and over and over again to MAYBE get what you are looking for is Diablo the same?
So let me ask you this what if it was impossible to use an item from a certain dungeon if you hadn't run the dungeon whether you buy the item outright or not would that work for you?
For the record I'm all about options I believe the market can support every model p2w,B2P,Subscription and freemium I just don't have to play the games that I don't agree with the design of (p2w).
My question is why is it such a problem to you that they even exist? They obviously aren't for you so why not let the players who don't have umpteen hours to grind have those games and play what you like just curious why this for you seems like an issue you feel you need to stamp out?
Well first, no I'm not a writer, just a programmer/sysadmin, but thanks for your compliments .
Second, I know I come off with a lot of vitriol sometimes, but I'm really not diametrically opposed to F2P/P2W games existing at all. I DO feel that they are deceptive in their business practices, and I wish they would be more up front with what they really are. I mean, they're generally not really free to play. They all have some kind of catch.
Anyway though, I've went on about that enough. I do realize that some people know exactly what F2P games are, and still enjoy them, and hey, that's cool. As long as you're aware.
What has me up in arms is that I'm really worried that the freemium RMT beast is going to invade ALL kinds of games. With Diablo 3, Blizzard is taking a traditionally single player game and turning it into an online only "pseduo" MMORPG that will have a real money auction house. I think that, despite their marketing BS, their primary motivation in doing this is to test out a new business model.
Specifically, combining a taxed RMAH with a traditionally single player game to get some supplemental income. Sure, they aren't directly selling you goods, but they are taxing them...multiple times.
Blizzard is a leader in the video game industry. If they are successful with this concept in D3, it's going to send a clear signal to the rest of the industry. And it's quite possible that this will catch on even more and invade P2P MMORPGs and even other single player games. I mean, do we really want to see an RMAH in games like WoW, Final Fantasy (single player), and Mass Effect?
EDIT: Also just to answer your final question better.
This is essentially all about microtransactions and how companies implement them. I feel that, if implemented in certain ways, microtransactions can have an adverse affect on gaming in general by encouraging developers to make "bad" games, or at least games with parts that are deliberately poor.
When a developer decides that they are going to sell the ability to skip part of the game, they have a strong incentive to make games grindy so that you WANT to skip it. I think this is just bad on so many levels. And you know, this is probably how P2W originated. MMORPGs are grindy, I always saw this as a problem, and some developers are trying to make MMORPGs less grindy which is good. OTHER developers however decided to capitalize on the demand that players have to skip the grind and just sell them the ability flat out, they don't want to fix the grind because it would break their money machine!
Microtransactions are okay, but be honest about them, don't get me hooked on a game just until I run into a part that sucks and then charge me to skip it.
I wouldn't have any problem with a cash shop that sold things like new dungeons, new costumes, new quests etc...that's basically just packaging the content of an expansion in a different way. So long as the content was developed AFTER release and it isn't ridiculously overpriced, it's okay.
Bioware in particular is infamous for having DLC that you need to pay for at release. I see this as horrible because they obviously developed this content while they were making the game. It should have been IN the game. Instead, they rip out some content, sell you the game for $60, and then charge you $7 for the content that they stripped out of it.
Comments
Thank you, Venge.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Wow this sounds an awfully lot like what freemium model games are doing right now.
Are you a writer in real life? If not you really should be because you employ some pretty deft tactics. the problem though is that I think alot of people are going to vote no simply because as you state it in the beginning you are presenting this as a new idea (which I pointed out in my last post it is the exact same thing you constantly complain about so I also voted no).
Not sure you've proven your point or changed any minds about either freemium or p2w but must give you props on being able to present your point in ways that certainly get people looking and talking.
The problem with this point of view is you, let me say that again you assume that people are paying to skip content without any actual proof of whether or not a person has actually engaged in all the content available to them.
I have never played a Diablo game so I don't know if it works like mmo's work but in all fairness you have been railing against anything that's not standard sub or B2P and as mmo's go you are expected to grind certain dungeons over and over and over and over again to MAYBE get what you are looking for is Diablo the same?
So let me ask you this what if it was impossible to use an item from a certain dungeon if you hadn't run the dungeon whether you buy the item outright or not would that work for you?
For the record I'm all about options I believe the market can support every model p2w,B2P,Subscription and freemium I just don't have to play the games that I don't agree with the design of (p2w).
My question is why is it such a problem to you that they even exist? They obviously aren't for you so why not let the players who don't have umpteen hours to grind have those games and play what you like just curious why this for you seems like an issue you feel you need to stamp out?
Well first, no I'm not a writer, just a programmer/sysadmin, but thanks for your compliments
.
Second, I know I come off with a lot of vitriol sometimes, but I'm really not diametrically opposed to F2P/P2W games existing at all. I DO feel that they are deceptive in their business practices, and I wish they would be more up front with what they really are. I mean, they're generally not really free to play. They all have some kind of catch.
Anyway though, I've went on about that enough. I do realize that some people know exactly what F2P games are, and still enjoy them, and hey, that's cool. As long as you're aware.
What has me up in arms is that I'm really worried that the freemium RMT beast is going to invade ALL kinds of games. With Diablo 3, Blizzard is taking a traditionally single player game and turning it into an online only "pseduo" MMORPG that will have a real money auction house. I think that, despite their marketing BS, their primary motivation in doing this is to test out a new business model.
Specifically, combining a taxed RMAH with a traditionally single player game to get some supplemental income. Sure, they aren't directly selling you goods, but they are taxing them...multiple times.
Blizzard is a leader in the video game industry. If they are successful with this concept in D3, it's going to send a clear signal to the rest of the industry. And it's quite possible that this will catch on even more and invade P2P MMORPGs and even other single player games. I mean, do we really want to see an RMAH in games like WoW, Final Fantasy (single player), and Mass Effect?
EDIT: Also just to answer your final question better.
This is essentially all about microtransactions and how companies implement them. I feel that, if implemented in certain ways, microtransactions can have an adverse affect on gaming in general by encouraging developers to make "bad" games, or at least games with parts that are deliberately poor.
When a developer decides that they are going to sell the ability to skip part of the game, they have a strong incentive to make games grindy so that you WANT to skip it. I think this is just bad on so many levels. And you know, this is probably how P2W originated. MMORPGs are grindy, I always saw this as a problem, and some developers are trying to make MMORPGs less grindy which is good. OTHER developers however decided to capitalize on the demand that players have to skip the grind and just sell them the ability flat out, they don't want to fix the grind because it would break their money machine!
Microtransactions are okay, but be honest about them, don't get me hooked on a game just until I run into a part that sucks and then charge me to skip it.
I wouldn't have any problem with a cash shop that sold things like new dungeons, new costumes, new quests etc...that's basically just packaging the content of an expansion in a different way. So long as the content was developed AFTER release and it isn't ridiculously overpriced, it's okay.
Bioware in particular is infamous for having DLC that you need to pay for at release. I see this as horrible because they obviously developed this content while they were making the game. It should have been IN the game. Instead, they rip out some content, sell you the game for $60, and then charge you $7 for the content that they stripped out of it.
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