Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.
I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.
Few Points:
All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost. Either due to real life, game itself or both.
I am sure this is something every MMO gamer has seen. New MMO comes out, community swells and it feels vibrant and full of life. 3 months on it drops 50%. 6 months in, the death bell sets in and only the hard core fans are populating a now empty world.
When an MMO becomes empty, that is when I leave.
The game I am using as an example here is Age of Conan. I played for a several months and quite enjoyed the game. As the pop died off dramatically, circa 6 months. I also left with the crowds. Now its FTP I have jumped back in and really enjoying the improvements since I left and not feeling forced to power up to make sure I get my monies worth. The community is buzzing again, chat is active and grouping is semi easy. It really feels rejuvinated. With other releases like Fallen Earth going FTP also, there are some substantial MMO's out there that could easily satisfiy the masses.
I wonder if this is the only model worth pursuing. Is it worth paying for a game when some big releases are there to be played for free? Question I ask myself is. Would Funcom make any money from me if AoC wasn't FTP? Absolutely not. Will they make me spend a little here or there for shop items? Absolutely Yes.
why I think you are absolutly, painfully wrong...in my opinion
first, you are basing your idea of the F2P model...on a converted P2P...a failed P2P at that.
second, you are prasing the F2P model based on...1 game.
about the first point, ask yourself why you hated the F2P model up until recently...maybe because F2P games are terrible, grindy messes without a single redeeming quality?
about the second, make yourself this question....if AoC was though to be F2P from the ground up...do you think it would be the way it is now?
do you think if the industry makes a total turn to F2P, the quality of the games would still be triple A?
the thing is, the more games are F2P, the bigger the competition will be.
in a P2P model, competition means putting pressure on the developers to make BETTER games that can keep paying players longer
in a F2P model, competition means putting pressure on the developers to CUT COSTS, so they can survive longer and better in a model where is provem that 1 out of every 10 players will pay something sometime.
the more F2P games are, the worse they will be overall, and the more the current games will try to nickle and dime their players...the F2P model is essentially self destructive
and by your own words, if F2P is the future, that means less and less games will go P2P, only those that are truly HIGH quality, and I suppose those will have lil trouble getting a steady playerbase of their own.
when the current generation of P2P games going F2P ends, and no more P2P-quality games move to F2P...
then what? do you think developers will pony up the $100m that takes to make a fantastic game just to offer it for fully free?
and if so (VEEEERY DOUBTFUL), do you think they will just let people get away with forking zero ZERO dollars to play it? try again, they will monetize it to hell and back...
This is the thing I'll never understand about F2P supporters...why cant they simply say "I like AoC, I like LotR"...why they have to say "I like F2P model as a whole, the hundreds upon hundreds of terrible craps included, and I think that is the future"...
Its like saying "a Ford car model is doing great in NASCAR...hence, ALL Ford car models are the way to go in NASCAR, even the family vans, and the cheapest lower end models"....it makes no sense!
F2P have been here for years upon years and it has showed to be a HORRIBLE model for players, treating us like walking walllets that have to be annoyed until the point of making us pya to remove frustration.
Not only that, F2P games close by the dozen every month, the death rate between F2P games is several orders of magnitude bigger than between P2P games. Makes one wonder how practical the model is in reality.
picture yourself playing one typical asian grinder, voind of any value or entertainment...well, thats the future of F2P in a few years, when there arent any more P2P games going belly up...
just this time it wont be asian, it will be a game made by a western studio who learned the very foundations of asian F2P games
- cheeeeeeeap and fast to make
- next to no support....when you have a F2P title you cannot offer dozens of GMs and live service...try 2 GMs and an email service that takes 2 weeks to reply to, usually with "we cannot help you"
- increasingly disruptive cash shop, not needed at first, very handy in the middle, absolutly necessary by the end...and always allowing for items that stack...that meaning, if you spend $500 a month in the cash shop you will do much better than by just spending $50...the staple of this model is to foster compulsive buying, if there is little to gain from buying more you are doing it wrong...
I was liking the free to play model, until you find out you are missing alot of content in most games. EQ2 for example doesn't limit your level, but does limit what races, classes, and even how many character slots you get. Most of the FREE TO PLAY games are like this. If you want full access, you have to pay a subscription.
I think all the of FREE TO PLAY mmorpgs are like this. It makes no sense to pay $500 in one month on the cash shop. If people actually do this, I need to make myself a mmorpg fast. ;/ Its easy I guess to get nickle and dimed. I remember playing gemstone 3 and was paying like alot, they were charging like $2 an hour.
========================== The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
I was liking the free to play model, until you find out you are missing alot of content in most games. EQ2 for example doesn't limit your level, but does limit what races, classes, and even how many character slots you get. Most of the FREE TO PLAY games are like this. If you want full access, you have to pay a subscription.
I think all the of FREE TO PLAY mmorpgs are like this. It makes no sense to pay $500 in one month on the cash shop. If people actually do this, I need to make myself a mmorpg fast. ;/ Its easy I guess to get nickle and dimed. I remember playing gemstone 3 and was paying like alot, they were charging like $2 an hour.
I know games where real people paid several grands.
You dont get that kind of money selling adventure packs or races only, of course. You have to give players the typical "item strengtheners" and such.
basically you allow them to buy digital godhood, the more they pay the stronger they get, and the more misery and pain they can bring over freeriders.
how can anyone honestly like this model is beyond me, that people should go get their heads checked...
Playing F2P games can become VERY costly, sometimes far more costly than playing a P2P game because of the cash shop or item mall or however they call it. They will often sell items that give the paying players a considerable advantage over non-paying ones. Nearly all F2P games will have PvP in them and you will indeed be the canon fodder to the players that pay. If you don't intend on getting very far in the game and just pick up and ditch games as you go then you shouldn't have to spend a dime. One thing in favor of F2P is that you can pick up the game and just try it. If you don't like it, not much lost except the download.
P2P does away with the Pay2Win inconveniences of F2P and is the best known alternative for players that either intend to spend a lot of time playing a game, or have really had it with the Pay2Win stuff. Just put time and a fixed amount into the game and you're playing. Downsides are that once you stop paying, you also have to stop playing. Also there is usually a price to pay for the box, this usually includes a month worth of play time, however many hour that may be.
There is also the Buy2Play option. I don't know if you've all taken a really good look at Guild Wars and more importantly the upcoming Guild Wars 2. In those games you pay for the box once and after that you can play them for as long as you want. In fact it's just like any other Single Player game in that respect. Subscription aren't needed to pay for "servers and bandwidth costs". Who would buy a Single Player game that you can only play for a month and if you want to play it again a month later you have to pay for the game again? It just doesn't make any sense. The price of the box pays for the complete game. Servers and bandwidth aren't that expensive that you need to charge everyone that plays it $15 a month. No Pay2Win Cash Shop and no subscription, that's what I'd call a winning concept for all people buying and playing the game.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.
I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.
Few Points:
All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost. Either due to real life, game itself or both.
Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.
If we're speaking of USA,Canada or most EU countries ,15$ is less than cost of 1 book, or cost of 2-3 packs of cigarettes.Going to pub once with friends will mke you spent much more. Not to mention almost any other hobby will make you spent much much more.
It's not a matter of cost but of spending money logically. Why spend $15 a month to keep accounts running fro multiple games when you can have active accounts in mulriple games for free? I guess you're also forgetting that initial 30-50 USD box fee that most sub MMOs charge, too.
He said he has several friends he plays with and they all like MMOs, so they are more than likely bouncing around MMOs and trying differnt ones out. With F2P, each person pays nothng to try a game, pays nothing to play, pays nothing to have an active account and only spends money when they specifically choose to for extras that they may want.
I know it's fun to play the "ur 2 poor 2 pay 15 dollarz???" card, Sulaa, but it is rather flimsy and proof you really didn't read the scenario at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.
I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.
Few Points:
All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost. Either due to real life, game itself or both.
Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.
If we're speaking of USA,Canada or most EU countries ,15$ is less than cost of 1 book, or cost of 2-3 packs of cigarettes.Going to pub once with friends will mke you spent much more. Not to mention almost any other hobby will make you spent much much more.
It's not a matter of cost but of spending money logically. Why spend $15 a month to keep accounts running fro multiple games when you can have active accounts in mulriple games for free? I guess you're also forgetting that initial 30-50 USD box fee that most sub MMOs charge, too.
He said he has several friends he plays with and they all like MMOs, so they are more than likely bouncing around MMOs and trying differnt ones out. With F2P, each person pays nothng to try a game, pays nothing to play, pays nothing to have an active account and only spends money when they specifically choose to for extras that they may want.
I know it's fun to play the "ur 2 poor 2 pay 15 dollarz???" card, Sulaa, but it is rather flimsy and proof you really didn't read the scenario at all.
so....the scenario is:
"I play with friends whatever we come across....we make no ties with the game at all, we dont comit to any game in particular, we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse, and we are willing to bounce from game to game every week, ad eternium"
truth be told, that person is not a gamer, and his opinion is the last thing I want to hear, let alone have an impact in the industry I like.
sadly its the contrary, the opinion of people like that is the one that is shaping the industry....to become something monstruous and sick that deserves to die.
Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.
I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.
Few Points:
All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost. Either due to real life, game itself or both.
Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.
If we're speaking of USA,Canada or most EU countries ,15$ is less than cost of 1 book, or cost of 2-3 packs of cigarettes.Going to pub once with friends will mke you spent much more. Not to mention almost any other hobby will make you spent much much more.
It's not a matter of cost but of spending money logically. Why spend $15 a month to keep accounts running fro multiple games when you can have active accounts in mulriple games for free? I guess you're also forgetting that initial 30-50 USD box fee that most sub MMOs charge, too.
He said he has several friends he plays with and they all like MMOs, so they are more than likely bouncing around MMOs and trying differnt ones out. With F2P, each person pays nothng to try a game, pays nothing to play, pays nothing to have an active account and only spends money when they specifically choose to for extras that they may want.
I know it's fun to play the "ur 2 poor 2 pay 15 dollarz???" card, Sulaa, but it is rather flimsy and proof you really didn't read the scenario at all.
so....the scenario is:
"I play with friends whatever we come across....we make no ties with the game at all, we dont comit to any game in particular, we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse, and we are willing to bounce from game to game every week, ad eternium"
truth be told, that person is not a gamer, and his opinion is the last thing I want to hear, let alone have an impact in the industry I like.
sadly its the contrary, the opinion of people like that is the one that is shaping the industry....to become something monstruous and sick that deserves to die.
we could kil it but that would mean we had to make the fools who spend money like crazy stop spending on F2P CS games, but we know some people are too needy and in need to win something so they spend over 10k to make weapons to HK others
I haven't been a big fan of f2p thus far but I do respect people's right to enjoy that model. What f2p seems to breed in my opinion is more people trying games but not "playing" per say if you get my meaning. People will go from game to game leveling up some and moving on, it doesn't seem to really foster a community for play in the higher levels, but it gives us tons of characters named xXpwnsyouXx in the lower levels. Just my two cents. I think if sub based games got their sub fees in line at a lower more realistic price we wouldn't even be having f2p discussions.
Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.
I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.
Few Points:
All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost. Either due to real life, game itself or both.
Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.
If we're speaking of USA,Canada or most EU countries ,15$ is less than cost of 1 book, or cost of 2-3 packs of cigarettes.Going to pub once with friends will mke you spent much more. Not to mention almost any other hobby will make you spent much much more.
It's not a matter of cost but of spending money logically. Why spend $15 a month to keep accounts running fro multiple games when you can have active accounts in mulriple games for free? I guess you're also forgetting that initial 30-50 USD box fee that most sub MMOs charge, too.
He said he has several friends he plays with and they all like MMOs, so they are more than likely bouncing around MMOs and trying differnt ones out. With F2P, each person pays nothng to try a game, pays nothing to play, pays nothing to have an active account and only spends money when they specifically choose to for extras that they may want.
I know it's fun to play the "ur 2 poor 2 pay 15 dollarz???" card, Sulaa, but it is rather flimsy and proof you really didn't read the scenario at all.
so....the scenario is:
"I play with friends whatever we come across....we make no ties with the game at all, we dont comit to any game in particular, we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse, and we are willing to bounce from game to game every week, ad eternium"
truth be told, that person is not a gamer, and his opinion is the last thing I want to hear, let alone have an impact in the industry I like.
sadly its the contrary, the opinion of people like that is the one that is shaping the industry....to become something monstruous and sick that deserves to die.
"we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse"
"Will they make me spend a little here or there for shop items? Absolutely Yes."
The OP stated in the very first post that he will spend money. Making things up only works if people can't remember or can't reference what was said before. Nice try, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.
I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.
Few Points:
All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost. Either due to real life, game itself or both.
Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.
If we're speaking of USA,Canada or most EU countries ,15$ is less than cost of 1 book, or cost of 2-3 packs of cigarettes.Going to pub once with friends will mke you spent much more. Not to mention almost any other hobby will make you spent much much more.
It's not a matter of cost but of spending money logically. Why spend $15 a month to keep accounts running fro multiple games when you can have active accounts in mulriple games for free? I guess you're also forgetting that initial 30-50 USD box fee that most sub MMOs charge, too.
He said he has several friends he plays with and they all like MMOs, so they are more than likely bouncing around MMOs and trying differnt ones out. With F2P, each person pays nothng to try a game, pays nothing to play, pays nothing to have an active account and only spends money when they specifically choose to for extras that they may want.
I know it's fun to play the "ur 2 poor 2 pay 15 dollarz???" card, Sulaa, but it is rather flimsy and proof you really didn't read the scenario at all.
so....the scenario is:
"I play with friends whatever we come across....we make no ties with the game at all, we dont comit to any game in particular, we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse, and we are willing to bounce from game to game every week, ad eternium"
truth be told, that person is not a gamer, and his opinion is the last thing I want to hear, let alone have an impact in the industry I like.
sadly its the contrary, the opinion of people like that is the one that is shaping the industry....to become something monstruous and sick that deserves to die.
"we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse"
"Will they make me spend a little here or there for shop items? Absolutely Yes."
The OP stated in the very first post that he will spend money. Making things up only works if people can't remember or can't reference what was said before. Nice try, though.
i am sorry to say f2p isnt there yet ,the main issue is the gamblers way of getting the max weapon.make till you go broke and still fail to get the +12 .i am sorry but i aint going in there.like in silkroad online you try to +your weapon and all but the chance to fail is a bad thing.oh it is heaven for silkroad since there are always those sayinbg this:oh this is the good one i can feel it !
ok ok i forgot to say my prayer ,here we go now i ll say it!darn forgot my chance tooken on the office desk.etc etc etc
the person has been at it for days but the person still try still put insane amount of money to try to get that elusive +?
that is one reason sub isnt going anywhere soon,player are more selective these days why would they bother with an average soso f2p game when they can have a aaa title for cheaper and have more fun!
picture yourself playing one typical asian grinder, voind of any value or entertainment...well, thats the future of F2P in a few years, when there arent any more P2P games going belly up...
just this time it wont be asian, it will be a game made by a western studio who learned the very foundations of asian F2P games
- cheeeeeeeap and fast to make
- next to no support....when you have a F2P title you cannot offer dozens of GMs and live service...try 2 GMs and an email service that takes 2 weeks to reply to, usually with "we cannot help you"
- increasingly disruptive cash shop, not needed at first, very handy in the middle, absolutly necessary by the end...and always allowing for items that stack...that meaning, if you spend $500 a month in the cash shop you will do much better than by just spending $50...the staple of this model is to foster compulsive buying, if there is little to gain from buying more you are doing it wrong...
You and other judging Free to play by the worse games.You reality is you don't have probelms with the free to play games you have probelm with bad free to games and bad cash shops.
AoC,Lotor and Guild wars 2 prove you can have high quailty games with no subs.League of Legends,Guild Wars and Lotor prove you have cash shops that are not abusive to the players
At some points all gamers eventually figure out their probelm is not with free to play games.Probelm is they are bad games and bad cash shops.If WoW turn into free to play game it would not all of sudden turn into a bad game,Allods was good game and players love the game until they put in a bad cash shop.Just like they are bad pay to play they are bad free to play games.
I will say this i am interested in Tera,Tor,TSW,Archage,Blade and Soul,War40k,Prime,etc.For me to try find MMO i like it takes around 60 dollars for the box and about 3 to 4 fours months play at 15 dollars a month which come out to 120 dollars to find out i don't like this game.To find out that you don't like free to play game normal cost zero dollars or what ever decide to put in the cash shop first time which i guarantee you will never be 120 dollars.
I am going to be playing AoC,Guild wars 2,Firefall,LoL for free and i can add one good pay to play mmo as well.At this point i don't to worry any more you guys fight against F2P games because Amercians companies are seeing value of the free to play model in MMO market that has tons of games.
I will end will with this lets pretend they are 100 mmo on the market,they are 100 mmos on the way and all of mmos being made are subs mmo.Most gamers will only play one mmo at a time and cost around 120 dollars to try out new mmo.How many of those new and old mmos are being played?How many mmo will survive?How many good mmo will die because they will not get a good population base because 11 million subs are lock up in one game and they are 10 to 20 good to great mmo competeing agianst other for subs.Pay to play has it place but free to play has its place as well.Hopeful at some point you guys get that market can support only some many p2p games.Free to play games are coming more and more instead of fight it help them make the right choice with cash shops.
picture yourself playing one typical asian grinder, voind of any value or entertainment...well, thats the future of F2P in a few years, when there arent any more P2P games going belly up...
just this time it wont be asian, it will be a game made by a western studio who learned the very foundations of asian F2P games
- cheeeeeeeap and fast to make
- next to no support....when you have a F2P title you cannot offer dozens of GMs and live service...try 2 GMs and an email service that takes 2 weeks to reply to, usually with "we cannot help you"
- increasingly disruptive cash shop, not needed at first, very handy in the middle, absolutly necessary by the end...and always allowing for items that stack...that meaning, if you spend $500 a month in the cash shop you will do much better than by just spending $50...the staple of this model is to foster compulsive buying, if there is little to gain from buying more you are doing it wrong...
Completely missed this post before. Have you played F2P games or are you just regurgitating talking points?
"voind of any value or entertainment" - If "voind" is supposed to be "devoid" then the statement is entirely subjective and pointless.
"cheeeeeeeap and fast to make" - how much did LoL cost? Vindictus? Can you link to the source for this statement?
"when you have a F2P title you cannot offer dozens of GMs and live service" - not only is this baseless but it's illogical. If F2P is not making money, why are devs switching to it? To make LESS money? It's great to have talking points but only if they make some semblance of sense. As for the amount or quality of support, F2P games have historically been more customer service focused than subscription games. This is very clear in how developers refer to their MMO - F2P devs will often talk about their service and the subscription devs will refer to their product.
And your last point is so completely false in so many ways that it is amazing you could be that wrong in one single paragraph.
Don't just repeat what you hear. I'm hoping your post was simply a case of a lack of research and not simply spouting what you want to believe to be fact in spite of actual fact to the contrary.
Are there MMOs like War Rock? Yes. Is that what every F2P MMOs is like? It is... just as much as Mortal Online is an example of your average subscription MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
picture yourself playing one typical asian grinder, voind of any value or entertainment...well, thats the future of F2P in a few years, when there arent any more P2P games going belly up...
just this time it wont be asian, it will be a game made by a western studio who learned the very foundations of asian F2P games
- cheeeeeeeap and fast to make
- next to no support....when you have a F2P title you cannot offer dozens of GMs and live service...try 2 GMs and an email service that takes 2 weeks to reply to, usually with "we cannot help you"
- increasingly disruptive cash shop, not needed at first, very handy in the middle, absolutly necessary by the end...and always allowing for items that stack...that meaning, if you spend $500 a month in the cash shop you will do much better than by just spending $50...the staple of this model is to foster compulsive buying, if there is little to gain from buying more you are doing it wrong...
You and other judging Free to play by the worse games.
I and others judge the free to play by the majority of games.
for every decent game you bring, I can name no less than 50 shitty cash shop grinders that are the very definition of "abomination".
how can you defend a model that is bassically compromised of a few gold nuggest buried over seventy tons of horse crap is beyond me...oh sure, there ARE gold nuggets...but thats not gonna magically make me not see that mountain of crap...
I agree with you that AoC and LotR are nice, but they are not your average F2P game, in my opinion we are seeing something new here...I kinda like the new term that some people uses to refer to them, "freemium".
the average F2P however are craptastic, and thats not gonna change
I think its all a huge problem of misscommunication...if only people could understand what they are actually praising when they say "F2P".....
btw, I consider GW2 a whole different animal, its Buy To Play and without paying money upfront noone can play it for fully free...I have absolutly nothing against the model per se...
the average F2P however are craptastic, and thats not gonna change
Payment model has nothing to with gameplay.Free to play didn't turn AoC or Lotor into bad games.The gameplay remains the same.You are wrong EA,Valve,Sony have already embrance F2P format in some their games,Ncsoft is release Guild Wars a triple AAA high costing mmo without a sub.Companies can't just cash grab any more release crappy game it was ok when nobody was making them but do you think anybody is going play Shaiya of over AoC,Requim over Lotor,Global agenda over Team Fortress 2.
You have proven my point ,like i said you don't have a probelm with Free to play model you have probelm with bad games and bad cash shops why because you said AoC and Lotor are good.So simple reasoning if AoC and Lotor can be good then any F2P game can be good.Sticking a sub didn't stop TSoC,fallen earth and Ryzom from sucking,Having a sub does not stop STO,Darkfall,War and DCUO from being horrible average.5 years ago you may have been right but
Games you can play with out subs
Lotor,AoC,DDO,Allods,Altanica Online,Guild Wars 2,League of Legends,Team Fortress 2
Top MMO
WoW,Aion,Rifts,EvE,Final fantasy
The gap between free to play games and Pay to play is not that large anymore and with Tribes,Firefall and Guild Wars 2 and probably Dota 2 being free to play i am liking future.It will be interesting to see with Funcom does with TSW and Sony does with the next Everquest or new game like Tera does.They are over 75 mmo and tons more on the way do people think that everygame can have a sub with that many mmos and 11 million subs trapped in WOW.Which model makes the most sense in crowd market.
PS.People i know Tribes,LoL,Dota 2 and TF2 are not mmo
Payment model has nothing to with gameplay.Free to play didn't turn AoC or Lotor into bad games.The gameplay remains the same.
Completely disagree. I see them as two completely different games.
1. Pay 14.95 for a month for access to the ENTIRE game. NEVER think about money while playing the game, because EVERYTHING is paid for with the subscription price. ALL decisions are based on game play, not money.
2. Items in a cash shop cost real money. Think about real money the ENTIRE game, because that is a consideration in everything you do. Should I buy this item or not? How much does it cost? Can I live with out it? If I want it, how much have I spent already this month? Is the item worth the price? Is it a rip off?
For me, 1 is fun. I can play the game, and never think about money. 2 is horrible. I can't play the game at all, I will just think about money, and it will ruin my fun.
1 is money spent OUTSIDE the game to access the service. I buy the subscription. My character inside the game never touches real world currency.
2 is money spent INSIDE the game, and my character constantly deals with real life currency. Horrible, and not fun.
If I want to play a game with real money, I will go to Vegas.
The best AAA MMORPG would be ruined for me if you put a cash shop in it. The moment my character touches real world currency, the game stops being fun.
I don't want to think about money when I play. Whether it's pay to win or not makes no difference to me.
For the record, some have already pointed out some misrepresentations, so thanks.
Paying for a sub or the price of a sub is not the point here. In danger of sounding crass, I earn a 6 figure salary so trust me, $15 a month is F.all.
Interesting enough I saw the new Conan film on the weekend with some mates. They all had the same problem as myself in regards to MMO's. Basically blocks of time are erratic in our lives due to RL so some common themes were,
'I hate having to sub if I can't log on for 2 months'.
'Having a sub makes me feel like I need to play continously or whenever I have free time. I feel guilty if I don't. So I prefer not to sub.'
The minute I told them that they could play AoC for free, nearly all said they were going to download it and play. These are all vet gamers of 20 years and old school RPG players. The kind of people an MMO benefits in having.
In summary:
Taking AoC as an example. I don't see any shop items that are more powerful than I can see in game. Plenty of options for RPG clothing etc. I can see a clear difference from a premium subscriber and myself but I don't feel left out. I can play to the end but if I really want all the content then I will need to pay for specific access or upgrade. Right now I may level to 80 and then go premimum for a few months to have access to all the dungeons end game. I think they have got the balance right mostly. Its the only game I will be playing for the next 3-6 months and now looking for a guild.
Comments
why I think you are absolutly, painfully wrong...in my opinion
first, you are basing your idea of the F2P model...on a converted P2P...a failed P2P at that.
second, you are prasing the F2P model based on...1 game.
about the first point, ask yourself why you hated the F2P model up until recently...maybe because F2P games are terrible, grindy messes without a single redeeming quality?
about the second, make yourself this question....if AoC was though to be F2P from the ground up...do you think it would be the way it is now?
do you think if the industry makes a total turn to F2P, the quality of the games would still be triple A?
the thing is, the more games are F2P, the bigger the competition will be.
in a P2P model, competition means putting pressure on the developers to make BETTER games that can keep paying players longer
in a F2P model, competition means putting pressure on the developers to CUT COSTS, so they can survive longer and better in a model where is provem that 1 out of every 10 players will pay something sometime.
the more F2P games are, the worse they will be overall, and the more the current games will try to nickle and dime their players...the F2P model is essentially self destructive
and by your own words, if F2P is the future, that means less and less games will go P2P, only those that are truly HIGH quality, and I suppose those will have lil trouble getting a steady playerbase of their own.
when the current generation of P2P games going F2P ends, and no more P2P-quality games move to F2P...
then what? do you think developers will pony up the $100m that takes to make a fantastic game just to offer it for fully free?
and if so (VEEEERY DOUBTFUL), do you think they will just let people get away with forking zero ZERO dollars to play it? try again, they will monetize it to hell and back...
This is the thing I'll never understand about F2P supporters...why cant they simply say "I like AoC, I like LotR"...why they have to say "I like F2P model as a whole, the hundreds upon hundreds of terrible craps included, and I think that is the future"...
Its like saying "a Ford car model is doing great in NASCAR...hence, ALL Ford car models are the way to go in NASCAR, even the family vans, and the cheapest lower end models"....it makes no sense!
F2P have been here for years upon years and it has showed to be a HORRIBLE model for players, treating us like walking walllets that have to be annoyed until the point of making us pya to remove frustration.
Not only that, F2P games close by the dozen every month, the death rate between F2P games is several orders of magnitude bigger than between P2P games. Makes one wonder how practical the model is in reality.
picture yourself playing one typical asian grinder, voind of any value or entertainment...well, thats the future of F2P in a few years, when there arent any more P2P games going belly up...
just this time it wont be asian, it will be a game made by a western studio who learned the very foundations of asian F2P games
- cheeeeeeeap and fast to make
- next to no support....when you have a F2P title you cannot offer dozens of GMs and live service...try 2 GMs and an email service that takes 2 weeks to reply to, usually with "we cannot help you"
- increasingly disruptive cash shop, not needed at first, very handy in the middle, absolutly necessary by the end...and always allowing for items that stack...that meaning, if you spend $500 a month in the cash shop you will do much better than by just spending $50...the staple of this model is to foster compulsive buying, if there is little to gain from buying more you are doing it wrong...
I was liking the free to play model, until you find out you are missing alot of content in most games. EQ2 for example doesn't limit your level, but does limit what races, classes, and even how many character slots you get. Most of the FREE TO PLAY games are like this. If you want full access, you have to pay a subscription.
I think all the of FREE TO PLAY mmorpgs are like this. It makes no sense to pay $500 in one month on the cash shop. If people actually do this, I need to make myself a mmorpg fast. ;/ Its easy I guess to get nickle and dimed. I remember playing gemstone 3 and was paying like alot, they were charging like $2 an hour.
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
I know games where real people paid several grands.
You dont get that kind of money selling adventure packs or races only, of course. You have to give players the typical "item strengtheners" and such.
basically you allow them to buy digital godhood, the more they pay the stronger they get, and the more misery and pain they can bring over freeriders.
how can anyone honestly like this model is beyond me, that people should go get their heads checked...
Playing F2P games can become VERY costly, sometimes far more costly than playing a P2P game because of the cash shop or item mall or however they call it. They will often sell items that give the paying players a considerable advantage over non-paying ones. Nearly all F2P games will have PvP in them and you will indeed be the canon fodder to the players that pay. If you don't intend on getting very far in the game and just pick up and ditch games as you go then you shouldn't have to spend a dime. One thing in favor of F2P is that you can pick up the game and just try it. If you don't like it, not much lost except the download.
P2P does away with the Pay2Win inconveniences of F2P and is the best known alternative for players that either intend to spend a lot of time playing a game, or have really had it with the Pay2Win stuff. Just put time and a fixed amount into the game and you're playing. Downsides are that once you stop paying, you also have to stop playing. Also there is usually a price to pay for the box, this usually includes a month worth of play time, however many hour that may be.
There is also the Buy2Play option. I don't know if you've all taken a really good look at Guild Wars and more importantly the upcoming Guild Wars 2. In those games you pay for the box once and after that you can play them for as long as you want. In fact it's just like any other Single Player game in that respect. Subscription aren't needed to pay for "servers and bandwidth costs". Who would buy a Single Player game that you can only play for a month and if you want to play it again a month later you have to pay for the game again? It just doesn't make any sense. The price of the box pays for the complete game. Servers and bandwidth aren't that expensive that you need to charge everyone that plays it $15 a month. No Pay2Win Cash Shop and no subscription, that's what I'd call a winning concept for all people buying and playing the game.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
It's not a matter of cost but of spending money logically. Why spend $15 a month to keep accounts running fro multiple games when you can have active accounts in mulriple games for free? I guess you're also forgetting that initial 30-50 USD box fee that most sub MMOs charge, too.
He said he has several friends he plays with and they all like MMOs, so they are more than likely bouncing around MMOs and trying differnt ones out. With F2P, each person pays nothng to try a game, pays nothing to play, pays nothing to have an active account and only spends money when they specifically choose to for extras that they may want.
I know it's fun to play the "ur 2 poor 2 pay 15 dollarz???" card, Sulaa, but it is rather flimsy and proof you really didn't read the scenario at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
so....the scenario is:
"I play with friends whatever we come across....we make no ties with the game at all, we dont comit to any game in particular, we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse, and we are willing to bounce from game to game every week, ad eternium"
truth be told, that person is not a gamer, and his opinion is the last thing I want to hear, let alone have an impact in the industry I like.
sadly its the contrary, the opinion of people like that is the one that is shaping the industry....to become something monstruous and sick that deserves to die.
we could kil it but that would mean we had to make the fools who spend money like crazy stop spending on F2P CS games, but we know some people are too needy and in need to win something so they spend over 10k to make weapons to HK others
"we expect to get everything for free, as soon as we hit the cash shop wall we leave without remorse"
"Will they make me spend a little here or there for shop items? Absolutely Yes."
The OP stated in the very first post that he will spend money. Making things up only works if people can't remember or can't reference what was said before. Nice try, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i am sorry to say f2p isnt there yet ,the main issue is the gamblers way of getting the max weapon.make till you go broke and still fail to get the +12 .i am sorry but i aint going in there.like in silkroad online you try to +your weapon and all but the chance to fail is a bad thing.oh it is heaven for silkroad since there are always those sayinbg this:oh this is the good one i can feel it !
ok ok i forgot to say my prayer ,here we go now i ll say it!darn forgot my chance tooken on the office desk.etc etc etc
the person has been at it for days but the person still try still put insane amount of money to try to get that elusive +?
that is one reason sub isnt going anywhere soon,player are more selective these days why would they bother with an average soso f2p game when they can have a aaa title for cheaper and have more fun!
You and other judging Free to play by the worse games.You reality is you don't have probelms with the free to play games you have probelm with bad free to games and bad cash shops.
AoC,Lotor and Guild wars 2 prove you can have high quailty games with no subs.League of Legends,Guild Wars and Lotor prove you have cash shops that are not abusive to the players
At some points all gamers eventually figure out their probelm is not with free to play games.Probelm is they are bad games and bad cash shops.If WoW turn into free to play game it would not all of sudden turn into a bad game,Allods was good game and players love the game until they put in a bad cash shop.Just like they are bad pay to play they are bad free to play games.
I will say this i am interested in Tera,Tor,TSW,Archage,Blade and Soul,War40k,Prime,etc.For me to try find MMO i like it takes around 60 dollars for the box and about 3 to 4 fours months play at 15 dollars a month which come out to 120 dollars to find out i don't like this game.To find out that you don't like free to play game normal cost zero dollars or what ever decide to put in the cash shop first time which i guarantee you will never be 120 dollars.
I am going to be playing AoC,Guild wars 2,Firefall,LoL for free and i can add one good pay to play mmo as well.At this point i don't to worry any more you guys fight against F2P games because Amercians companies are seeing value of the free to play model in MMO market that has tons of games.
I will end will with this lets pretend they are 100 mmo on the market,they are 100 mmos on the way and all of mmos being made are subs mmo.Most gamers will only play one mmo at a time and cost around 120 dollars to try out new mmo.How many of those new and old mmos are being played?How many mmo will survive?How many good mmo will die because they will not get a good population base because 11 million subs are lock up in one game and they are 10 to 20 good to great mmo competeing agianst other for subs.Pay to play has it place but free to play has its place as well.Hopeful at some point you guys get that market can support only some many p2p games.Free to play games are coming more and more instead of fight it help them make the right choice with cash shops.
Completely missed this post before. Have you played F2P games or are you just regurgitating talking points?
"voind of any value or entertainment" - If "voind" is supposed to be "devoid" then the statement is entirely subjective and pointless.
"cheeeeeeeap and fast to make" - how much did LoL cost? Vindictus? Can you link to the source for this statement?
"when you have a F2P title you cannot offer dozens of GMs and live service" - not only is this baseless but it's illogical. If F2P is not making money, why are devs switching to it? To make LESS money? It's great to have talking points but only if they make some semblance of sense. As for the amount or quality of support, F2P games have historically been more customer service focused than subscription games. This is very clear in how developers refer to their MMO - F2P devs will often talk about their service and the subscription devs will refer to their product.
And your last point is so completely false in so many ways that it is amazing you could be that wrong in one single paragraph.
Don't just repeat what you hear. I'm hoping your post was simply a case of a lack of research and not simply spouting what you want to believe to be fact in spite of actual fact to the contrary.
Are there MMOs like War Rock? Yes. Is that what every F2P MMOs is like? It is... just as much as Mortal Online is an example of your average subscription MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Naturally..crappy mmos are not worth the sub.
Oh.. and GW2 really isn't a ftp considering you will have to pay full price for the game and its expansions.
I and others judge the free to play by the majority of games.
for every decent game you bring, I can name no less than 50 shitty cash shop grinders that are the very definition of "abomination".
how can you defend a model that is bassically compromised of a few gold nuggest buried over seventy tons of horse crap is beyond me...oh sure, there ARE gold nuggets...but thats not gonna magically make me not see that mountain of crap...
I agree with you that AoC and LotR are nice, but they are not your average F2P game, in my opinion we are seeing something new here...I kinda like the new term that some people uses to refer to them, "freemium".
the average F2P however are craptastic, and thats not gonna change
I think its all a huge problem of misscommunication...if only people could understand what they are actually praising when they say "F2P".....
btw, I consider GW2 a whole different animal, its Buy To Play and without paying money upfront noone can play it for fully free...I have absolutly nothing against the model per se...
I'm fine with either payment scheme.
Where I have objections to these schemes:
1) When free to play becomes pay to win.
2) When pay to play adds a cash shop.
Potencial game breakers.
Payment model has nothing to with gameplay.Free to play didn't turn AoC or Lotor into bad games.The gameplay remains the same.You are wrong EA,Valve,Sony have already embrance F2P format in some their games,Ncsoft is release Guild Wars a triple AAA high costing mmo without a sub.Companies can't just cash grab any more release crappy game it was ok when nobody was making them but do you think anybody is going play Shaiya of over AoC,Requim over Lotor,Global agenda over Team Fortress 2.
You have proven my point ,like i said you don't have a probelm with Free to play model you have probelm with bad games and bad cash shops why because you said AoC and Lotor are good.So simple reasoning if AoC and Lotor can be good then any F2P game can be good.Sticking a sub didn't stop TSoC,fallen earth and Ryzom from sucking,Having a sub does not stop STO,Darkfall,War and DCUO from being horrible average.5 years ago you may have been right but
Games you can play with out subs
Lotor,AoC,DDO,Allods,Altanica Online,Guild Wars 2,League of Legends,Team Fortress 2
Top MMO
WoW,Aion,Rifts,EvE,Final fantasy
The gap between free to play games and Pay to play is not that large anymore and with Tribes,Firefall and Guild Wars 2 and probably Dota 2 being free to play i am liking future.It will be interesting to see with Funcom does with TSW and Sony does with the next Everquest or new game like Tera does.They are over 75 mmo and tons more on the way do people think that everygame can have a sub with that many mmos and 11 million subs trapped in WOW.Which model makes the most sense in crowd market.
PS.People i know Tribes,LoL,Dota 2 and TF2 are not mmo
For the record, some have already pointed out some misrepresentations, so thanks.
Paying for a sub or the price of a sub is not the point here. In danger of sounding crass, I earn a 6 figure salary so trust me, $15 a month is F.all.
Interesting enough I saw the new Conan film on the weekend with some mates. They all had the same problem as myself in regards to MMO's. Basically blocks of time are erratic in our lives due to RL so some common themes were,
'I hate having to sub if I can't log on for 2 months'.
'Having a sub makes me feel like I need to play continously or whenever I have free time. I feel guilty if I don't. So I prefer not to sub.'
The minute I told them that they could play AoC for free, nearly all said they were going to download it and play. These are all vet gamers of 20 years and old school RPG players. The kind of people an MMO benefits in having.
In summary:
Taking AoC as an example. I don't see any shop items that are more powerful than I can see in game. Plenty of options for RPG clothing etc. I can see a clear difference from a premium subscriber and myself but I don't feel left out. I can play to the end but if I really want all the content then I will need to pay for specific access or upgrade. Right now I may level to 80 and then go premimum for a few months to have access to all the dungeons end game. I think they have got the balance right mostly. Its the only game I will be playing for the next 3-6 months and now looking for a guild.