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What's this non-sense about no Cross-Server LFD or dual-spec in this game?
BigBadWolfe
Member Posts: 143
First of all I have the utmost confidence in Bioware as a developer, and I want SW:TOR to be a huge success, and any criticism I have about the game shouldn't be taken as mean-spirited as I hope for the best. That said I don't truly understand the direction they are going here with this game, and I tried looking up the info to no avail. Hopefully someone here can shed some light on what looks like to be a huge oversight from Bioware.
As far I as can tell the game is a full-on Holy Trinity based MMO, that means every group will need a tank, dps, and healer to function. Then they went ahead and made their game 4 group max instead of 5 groups, saying at the game works better this way. I have mixed feelings about this, mainly that now, ratio wise, for every 12 dps instead of needing 4 tanks and 4 healers, you're going to need a 6 tanks and 6 healers. That's a huge increase in required tanks/healers especially with no dual speccing or cross-server LFD. Now I know Bioware has contigencies in place, mainly they designed majority of their classes (75%?) to be able to spec into tank or healing roles if needed, and they also have a companion system to fill in any missing roles. Now I didn't want to bring Rift into this, as I believe also that Rift is a good game and Trion is doing what they can to make their game work, but the similiarities are there. Rift also have a very flexible class mechanic that allowed characters to spec into tanking or healing as neccessary, and it even had Quint-spec to really drive the point home that they wanted players to tank and heal. The Result? Still a huge lack of tanks and healers. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them play tanks/heals. DPS spent hours having find groups, and bleeded subs in the meantime, it wasn't 'til a whole 4 months later they decided to put in cross-server LFD, as the obvious solution.
Now for the companion system, I couldn't find any knowledge on it, but hopefully said player can control their companion like a pet class and thus utilize their abilities for pet tanking/healing mobs. And even if it is just AI control, I've seen some really good healing AI, so maybe well coordinated groups can get away with AI heals, but definitely not tanking. I honestly don't know how companions are going to work. Making them too weak means that they are worthless at endgame thus reinforcing the need for LFD and dual specing, or making them too strong and you will have players actively benching real life players over them so they won't have to split the loot.
I read up recently that Bioware caved in and made it possible for players to be able to respec their Advanced Class which is a smart move, and hopefully they will continue to be smart and implement other now standard trinity mmo based features necessarry for players to take this game seriously. Can anybody please explain the rational behind Bioware's MMO design decisions? And please don't tell me it's just to be "different", I'm not interested in hearing a "less wait and see aproach" excuse either. If your game is missing key features, don't launch the game until they are implemented.
Comments
They dont need cross server LFG while the game is popular. That only becomes necessary when a game is dying or top-heavy.
As for the no dual-spec, I agree its silly. Its much more enjoyable to play a tank or healer when you can level up using a damage dealing spec and switching into your main spec for dungeons.
The tanks and healers are also dps so its not like anyone has to really choose one or the other. You choose a dps class that can also tank with the same spec, same with healing. Youre going to be playing a dps class then you will heal or tank a flashpoint without having to change anything about your spec. Now in operations, especially the hard modes, you will probably need specialized classes, but that content isnt really made for casual pugs since it is end game.
Regardless if there's 100 or 1,000,000,000 we're looking at percentages here. No matter what game, it always seems like there's much higher % of dps over heals or tanks. If the game is super popular, ya.. there's going to be more tanks/heals, but there's also going to be that many more dps.
It doesn't matter if a dps class can heal and tank at the same time.
Its a fact many people simply dont enjoy healing or tanking for whatever reason.
I know personally Tanking makes me nervous and i dont play a game to be all nervous.
So it wont mean dick if my character could tank, because i simply wont do it lol.
Many people feel the same way i do about healing, tanking or both.
In this day and age you need a solid match making system, cross server is the easiest one to put together and its been proven to work.
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Well we'll have to see how it pans out, if it comes down to the game needs it, then I'd assume they would add it.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
yeah but it can hurt your server's community for the sake of added convenience.
You have a point. Like the OP also mentioned. You can't expect dps players to tank and heal, they only really probably want to dps....
I'm sort of surprised to be the first to say this.....
Because it isn't WoW.
if they can keep servers populated, make tanking and healing not overly annoying and stressful then maybe a simply server specific LFG tool would be enough.
That didnt really work in rift because at first the dungeons were brutal and tanking was an ass pain and healing was virtually impossible without support. it got better when they nerfed shit but then it just got boring and people would rather spamm Dps parsers instead of playing something that could be stressful.
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Yeah sounds like not having cross-server will suck, its such a useful feature to speed things up with, but I doubt at launch it'll be necesary.
well for me im getting older. im simply not as quick as i used to be. So tanking multple mobs, playing with cat like reflexes taking aggro off healers and asshole dpsers is extremely frustrating to me.
So i've switched to more of a Ranged Dps that sometimes heals. but i can completely relate to dpsers not wanting to do the stressful roles in a dungeon.
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(off topic) Might sound strange, wanna become a better twitch gamer? Pick up guitar or piano, seriously it helps a lot, your hand eye cordination and reaction becomes way faster as well as your precision. Just throwing that out there
.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
After the game has been out for 4 or 5 years and they have had 2 or 3 large expansions with multiple new high level planets. Then you may want to have a cross-server LFD. Before that point it will only decrease the possiblity of server community.
Dual-spec is also not needed with the way the classes are set up. But expansions over the years could increase the skills that create a situation for dual-specs. But at the launch of a game, it will not help community building or the servers at all. Keep it the way it is, nothing wrong with not having either in game.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
While I kind of side with their reasoning (better community), you're right. Convenience is an important factor to grouping, if it's a headache it will cost them subs no question about it.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
WoW has had 10+ years of developement time to implement these kinds of systems. How about giving SWTOR a chance to release first and see where it's at content wise before we start trying to pile on systems that might not even be needed. It's better to lay a solid foundation at launch and build from there than to try and implement every little idea that players think is absolutely essential at launch when it really isn't.
I know this is the age of I want everything now, now, now, but it would be nice if people gave MMO's a chance to grow over time from a solid foundation.
I'm sure eventually these ideas will be implemented at some point as the player base demands them over time.
These are themepark mmos. Sadly "community" is all about the guild your in.
IN rift im in a guild with over 300 active players. my server could be dead for all i know and it wouldnt mean anything.
SWTOR will be the same way, Get into a nice sized friendly guild that knows how to get shit done and dont worry so much about server community.
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Yeah I agree, been with my guild since around 2004 in SWG, we're moving to TOR as are many of our old server community, can't wait:).
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
I completely glazed over the topic of dual spec...
Honestly i dont see anything wrong with it. give people the option to spec how they want.
The only reason i can see Bioware not wanting this is because it may show people how shallow its class system is.
I know in rift is robust, you have many, many options. I know with my rogue in rift i wish i had 8-10 spec slots not just 5.
From what i've seen of SWTOR i cant imagine having more than two specs unless im missing some class information.
but again options are good and being able to switch specs gives people more to do.
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First and foremost, this game (SWTOR) will be a heavy lobby-system game. Period.
Whether you want that lobby to be cross-servers or not is the point of this particular post, I guess.
So, it comes down to whether server community will prevail over servers with low populations.
Why it’s so hard to capitalize on opportunity and provide gamers with access to their game-play, of which Bioware is clearly leading with and accentuating instanced /lobby-system game-play, is beyond me.
Some might say no easy answer here. But why is it so easy to say no and place a large contingent in a position to have to sit idle in a capital city waiting for their queue to pop? Why is that?
Preventing game-play doesn’t foster sustained subscription or community growth when the community for said participation doesn’t exist; it does foster disappointment, though. And to suggest that cross-server lfg retards community camaraderie and growth is turning a blind eye to the same exact argument that a heavily instanced lobby-system rpg is the epitome of massively-multiplayer community retardation.
Waiting 5-10 minutes for a queue to pop is too much time for the majority that have real lives and can only play for about an hour a day.
Then a cross-server LFD wouldn't mean anything to you at all. And no need for a dual-spec when you always have someone in your guild to play with. So why are we talking about LFD and dual-specs in this thread?
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
well not everyone is lucky enough to get into a active guild that runs content together constantly so a LFG cross server tool would help them and i dont think dual spec has anything to do with who is on in your guild. for me dual spec is about have a new way to play through content with the same character.
Edit: it would be selfish of me to not promote LFG cross server mechanic becaise i personally didnt use them. I know the good they do.
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In a game that has many many dungeons, I agree. When players are mostly at end game and grinding for gear, the system can be a good thing. With very little players still leveling, no one will be around. But in a game that will only have a few dungeons at launch. As most MMOs that launch only have a few dungeons. What good will it do?
And no one knows how the skill trees or AC's will work out in TOR yet. We won't know for a while after launch how the skill trees are balanced or how a tank or healer will play during the questing. From what I have seen, it won't matter what spec you run. You will be able to level just as well as a healer, dps or tank IMO. So dual-specs aren't worth much to start out in TOR. You will be able to re-spec, so just use that as needed.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
You're right we have so little information on how many flashpoint or raids (i forget what they call them) will be available at launch.
I've played games that only offered one raid and a couple dungeons at max level and they never really needed any type of complex LFG system.
I guess we will have to wait and see. If SWTOR ends up like rift with 10 dungeons and four endgame raids then maybe it could use a X server LFG.
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I think you all have missed a key point behind all this.. TRAVEL.. the idea is you get off your lazy ass and GO to the place to enter it. None of this hop from a capital like a lazy wowtard.
Now I'm sure your thinking.. OMG I have to DO something to play my game.. whatever will I do.. brainpower might actualy be required.. but well what can I say... Post Apoc gaming *i.e. post wow gaming* has really turned into give me everything I want now and thats how it should be.
So what you might ask is the reason you have to take your lazy rear and walk across a planet to get to an instance.. Well we like to call it. LIVING WORLDS.. by which is ment.. a zone that has people moving about doing things.. not sitting in one static place waiting for a timer to tick down while staring off into space. You see the reason this system is incredible. Is it makes lazy crap like you, free game for me. When your walking cross the planet, to your happy little event.. while not paying attention to anything. Me and my Guildmates jump you, kill you and enjoy our PvP rep gain wile giggling all the way home.
Yes I realise it'll be hard to handle for all of you. But for some of us. This is NOT a LACK of features, it's a Featuer all it's own. It means people might ACTUALY be around the world to kill on open PvP servers. Insted of going gee.. I havn't seen another person in a whole freaking week. People will have to roam zones and accept the dangers of such.
As for the Dual Spec issue. I have to admit I find that a bit odd as well. But as no one has any idea what a spec even IS... I'm not sure I'd be concernd.
Here's a quote from Eliot Lefebvre from Massively. He was talking about his experiences playing the game at PAX 2011:
"One of the nice parts about combat is that it's far more forgiving than the usual holy trinity model -- taunts are present, but the loss of aggro doesn't equal party death. Things are a bit more bouncy and frantic, and it looks like most classes have tools to get out of trouble when necessary. There was a slightly loose feel to combat here, with a number of things happening without becoming overwhelming. Having an ironclad hold on enemy attention wasn't nearly as important as keeping awareness of the battlefield, and it's nice to see that the small party size is being used to push players toward a greater variety of roles."
This to me says that the trinity model, at least for instance, won't necessarily be ironclad and what we've seen before. Roles may be more malleable that what we're used to. This in itself might make people more confortable with the healing and tanking roles if everyone is already chipping in to begin with. If dps characters are expected to throw a heal here and there as well as pull aggro from time to time, it might make a lot of players say: "hey, this isn't so bad" and they might try full on healing or tanking. The point is though, we can't really say anything before we see the actual game and specs.
The major point against cross-server LFD is that it breaks server communities, not to mention it eventually turns the game into a somewhat lobby game where people just hang out in major centers and wait for the queue to run out.
-edit-
To see more combat quotes from people who have actually played the game, see MMO.Maverick's post here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4380263#4380263