Originally posted by Fir3line Originally posted by asikis75
I think it's fine for players to sell items to each other for real money. I draw the line at developers selling items to players. I think it's because when a player sells an item to another player, somebody had to do something to earn that item. It didn't just pop out of nothing from the cash shop. So, in my mind, the Blizzard real money auction house in Diablo 3 is fine, but the Warhammer method of selling items directly to players so they can compete in the end game of an mmorpg is not fine.
Well said! that is exactly what i have been trying to say. As long as players actually ''earn'' the item either as a drop or by crafting it, there is no diference if they sell it for Real Money or trade it for another item or vendor it if it is what pleases them. The casual player will be able to ''gear up'' if he wants to and the hard core raider make even make something on the side for all the effort and hours he has put into the game. Its a win - win situation and should be clearly marked as having nothing to do with Pay-To-Win. In a perfect world with no asian dedicated to farming for hours to no end, with slave labour(which is one of the reasons I will never support it) just to make a proffit.
You would be turning MMO's from a game to a business on the players end
I understand all of that, and I could come up with 'reasons' to justify my opinion or to try and refute your opinion. I want to wait and see what happens with Blizzard's AH though. It will either marginalize the gold farming businesses or it will make them really profitable.
I don't really have a problem with games being a place to make money for the people who play them. So long as there is room for people who just want to play for fun, I don't see it as a bad thing in and of itself. It has to be a place where the gamers can make money though, not where the gold farming businesses rule.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Loktofeit That's one of the most common arguments in favor of it and, while I normally have no issue with item malls in games, yours is the most common rationalization for selling virtual goods. As such not the best argument to use if you're trying to change anyone's mind on the matter.
I think it's fine for players to sell items to each other for real money. I draw the line at developers selling items to players. I think it's because when a player sells an item to another player, somebody had to do something to earn that item. It didn't just pop out of nothing from the cash shop. So, in my mind, the Blizzard real money auction house in Diablo 3 is fine, but the Warhammer method of selling items directly to players so they can compete in the end game of an mmorpg is not fine.
Could you clarify that a bit for me? I don't follow the connection between your post and the contention that since real world time equals real world money then everything that we achieve in an MMO already has a price tag on it.
When a player (or gold farmer for that matter) runs around and eventually ends up with an item they can sell, they've invested time into the game. The gear does come from nothing...it's virtual and created out of magic bits, but it doesn't come into existence until a certain amount of time is spent in the game. This is the case when a player buys something from a gold farmer in a game that doesn't support player to player purchases, but in that case players cannot participate in the system on equal footing. They are at a disadvantage.
When a developer has a cash shop though, a player gives the developer money, and the item enters the game with no expenditure of time within the game on the part of any party.
It's kind of like our economy versus Zimbabwe's economy. Zimbabwe just printed more money, making their money useless (they should have sold it on eBay, it would have been worth more). In the U.S., the government has to give the Treasury something of value, even if it's just a promise to pay the money back before the Treasury will add any money to the economy. One works, and one doesn't. Even if the one that works seems nonsensical, it still works.
I don't think I could explain it any further than that. To be honest, I hadn't really thought about it too deeply until just now. I just had the opinion that Blizzard's method of RMT in D3 was 'OK' as soon as I read about it. Everything after that is just my conscious mind trying to justify my unconscious mind's opinion.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My two cents and a new (in my mind) aproach to the ongoing discussion about MMO's and real money auction houses.
In all mainstream MMO's I've played the following pattern seems to be common :
1) Spend time leveling (AKA grinding EXP)
2)) Reach cap and spend time on endgame (AKA grinding Faction or Gear or Tradeskill or PvP ranks or whatever)
3) Reach top gear - top PvP rank top tradeskill rank top everything and wait for an expancion that will raise level cap and introduce new faction or tradeskills or Raids to farm for Items.
All of the above are done by converting Real World Time into MMO goodies.
As anyone with a job knows Real World Time can also be converted to money, its called work.
So in my mind Real World Time =Real World Money or Real World Time = MMO goodies.
Thus everything that we achieve in an MMO already has a price tag on it, what the developers are now doing is offering a direct way of exchanging Real World Money with MMO goodies.
Since most players agree that most things in an MMO become a chore after the 1st time (or even worse after doing it in a very similar game) and raiding is very much like a ''job'' in terms of commitment in time, the prospect of ''buying'' things is not a very bad prospect.
My personal oppinion is that options should be open to people who are sort on time and cant raid as often (or at all), as long as the options dont give an unfair advantage to people who are already ''maxed out''.
The pattern you showed are obvious, but I don't look at them that way, of course I can look at a game that way when the game isn't immersive to me, but then again I would quit such a game.
To be honost I got plenty or lets just say enough money, but the simple fact for me is that I don't see any reason at all to spend real money on ingame items or re-selling them apart from a normal sub-fee or as with singleplayer games just the box sale.
I don't mind that there are many other options in this like cash shops even thought I don't use or want to use.I use to be fully against cash shops, but also aint blind that many company's struggle in this genre because for whatever reason they want to take on the rare instance called World of Warcraft which in terms of a western sub fee game is rather unique in what it achieved. But when a game provides a atmosphere where players of such games are offerd to actuall "try" to make rl money then in time the purpose of the game in my opinion gets lost and very quickly the motive to just play the game for the challenge or fun it offers becomes a game that is good to create or atleast try to create some extra money.
I am also short on time but this genre provides a game that doesn't need to be played to reach cap lvl asap. I take my time, sure me getting to max lvl will be much much longer then the avarage new MMO player that seems to want it quick and wants it now. But that still doesn't warrent me to even consider trying to make real life money with a game or use cash shops because of that. I do feel it's the new generation of gamers that do think like they should have it now, have it all, and now even want real life money for something that should be just entertainment and not some slot machine.
We already seen the purpose of MMORPG's degrading towards getting to cap lvl as fast you can to get to the "normal" multiplayer pvp game other genre's already provide.
I think that neither side of the issue is right, or wrong. Both try to rationalize somethign that really just comes down to "fun" which is EXTREMELY subjective.
Either item mall games are fun for you, or they are not fun.
Some people like ice climbing. Personally, I'd rather not climb the side of a sheer cliff of ice. But to each their own.
Someone that likes ice climbing could tell me about it all day long, but nothing they say is going to make that fun for me. It's cold and dangerous, and I have no idea why anyone would willingly do it.
It's the same with item mall games. you can talk till you are blue in the face, but nothing you say is going to make an item mall game fun for me.
For once again please learn to tell the diference between Auction House and Item Cash Shop. There is a huge diference.
In the auction house players buy and sell THEIR items (drops or Crafted) for money (real or game money) to other players at a price that both agree is fair. If one thinks an item is over price he can just run the raid or farm the mob or whatever.
In the item cash shop players Buy items that other non cash shop players dont have access to thus creating an unfair advantage. If one thinks that an item is over priced he can never access it.
Do we agree on the diference? first one is what has been going on untill now anyway but with $ instead of Gold, the second one is mostly in F2P games and yes it is the definition of Pay to Win.
So in short : Cash AH is NOT pay to Win
A cash auction house is not as bad as an Item mall, if the items must be created by player actions.
However, it's still bad.
In games like WoW, the cash transactions are basically limited to cheaters.
You can never stop all cheaters, but it cuts down tremendously on that kind of behavior.
I think that neither side of the issue is right, or wrong. Both try to rationalize somethign that really just comes down to "fun" which is EXTREMELY subjective.
Either item mall games are fun for you, or they are not fun.
Some people like ice climbing. Personally, I'd rather not climb the side of a sheer cliff of ice. But to each their own.
Someone that likes ice climbing could tell me about it all day long, but nothing they say is going to make that fun for me. It's cold and dangerous, and I have no idea why anyone would willingly do it.
It's the same with item mall games. you can talk till you are blue in the face, but nothing you say is going to make an item mall game fun for me.
For once again please learn to tell the diference between Auction House and Item Cash Shop. There is a huge diference.
In the auction house players buy and sell THEIR items (drops or Crafted) for money (real or game money) to other players at a price that both agree is fair. If one thinks an item is over price he can just run the raid or farm the mob or whatever.
In the item cash shop players Buy items that other non cash shop players dont have access to thus creating an unfair advantage. If one thinks that an item is over priced he can never access it.
Do we agree on the diference? first one is what has been going on untill now anyway but with $ instead of Gold, the second one is mostly in F2P games and yes it is the definition of Pay to Win.
So in short : Cash AH is NOT pay to Win
A cash auction house is not as bad as an Item mall, if the items must be created by player actions.
However, it's still bad.
In games like WoW, the cash transactions are basically limited to cheaters.
You can never stop all cheaters, but it cuts down tremendously on that kind of behavior.
The main difference for me is that an item mall gives the developers a massive incentive to design the game in such a way that makes it very gear dependant and make it tedious to play the game without buying from the item mall.
With just a cash AH there is an incentive for the developers to creat a large variety of interesting items to facilitate more trading.
Comments
In a perfect world with no asian dedicated to farming for hours to no end, with slave labour(which is one of the reasons I will never support it) just to make a proffit.
You would be turning MMO's from a game to a business on the players end
I understand all of that, and I could come up with 'reasons' to justify my opinion or to try and refute your opinion. I want to wait and see what happens with Blizzard's AH though. It will either marginalize the gold farming businesses or it will make them really profitable.
I don't really have a problem with games being a place to make money for the people who play them. So long as there is room for people who just want to play for fun, I don't see it as a bad thing in and of itself. It has to be a place where the gamers can make money though, not where the gold farming businesses rule.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
When a player (or gold farmer for that matter) runs around and eventually ends up with an item they can sell, they've invested time into the game. The gear does come from nothing...it's virtual and created out of magic bits, but it doesn't come into existence until a certain amount of time is spent in the game. This is the case when a player buys something from a gold farmer in a game that doesn't support player to player purchases, but in that case players cannot participate in the system on equal footing. They are at a disadvantage.
When a developer has a cash shop though, a player gives the developer money, and the item enters the game with no expenditure of time within the game on the part of any party.
It's kind of like our economy versus Zimbabwe's economy. Zimbabwe just printed more money, making their money useless (they should have sold it on eBay, it would have been worth more). In the U.S., the government has to give the Treasury something of value, even if it's just a promise to pay the money back before the Treasury will add any money to the economy. One works, and one doesn't. Even if the one that works seems nonsensical, it still works.
I don't think I could explain it any further than that. To be honest, I hadn't really thought about it too deeply until just now. I just had the opinion that Blizzard's method of RMT in D3 was 'OK' as soon as I read about it. Everything after that is just my conscious mind trying to justify my unconscious mind's opinion.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The pattern you showed are obvious, but I don't look at them that way, of course I can look at a game that way when the game isn't immersive to me, but then again I would quit such a game.
To be honost I got plenty or lets just say enough money, but the simple fact for me is that I don't see any reason at all to spend real money on ingame items or re-selling them apart from a normal sub-fee or as with singleplayer games just the box sale.
I don't mind that there are many other options in this like cash shops even thought I don't use or want to use.I use to be fully against cash shops, but also aint blind that many company's struggle in this genre because for whatever reason they want to take on the rare instance called World of Warcraft which in terms of a western sub fee game is rather unique in what it achieved. But when a game provides a atmosphere where players of such games are offerd to actuall "try" to make rl money then in time the purpose of the game in my opinion gets lost and very quickly the motive to just play the game for the challenge or fun it offers becomes a game that is good to create or atleast try to create some extra money.
I am also short on time but this genre provides a game that doesn't need to be played to reach cap lvl asap. I take my time, sure me getting to max lvl will be much much longer then the avarage new MMO player that seems to want it quick and wants it now. But that still doesn't warrent me to even consider trying to make real life money with a game or use cash shops because of that. I do feel it's the new generation of gamers that do think like they should have it now, have it all, and now even want real life money for something that should be just entertainment and not some slot machine.
We already seen the purpose of MMORPG's degrading towards getting to cap lvl as fast you can to get to the "normal" multiplayer pvp game other genre's already provide.
Keep in mind this is purely my own opinion....
A cash auction house is not as bad as an Item mall, if the items must be created by player actions.
However, it's still bad.
In games like WoW, the cash transactions are basically limited to cheaters.
You can never stop all cheaters, but it cuts down tremendously on that kind of behavior.
The main difference for me is that an item mall gives the developers a massive incentive to design the game in such a way that makes it very gear dependant and make it tedious to play the game without buying from the item mall.
With just a cash AH there is an incentive for the developers to creat a large variety of interesting items to facilitate more trading.